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Always wondered about the situation where someone with a Negative Chi Mastery skill while in a positive chi state (after all they don't spend their time always negative, can't heal) gets due to a negative chi attack reduced to a negative chi state if they can use their ability to switch between positive and negative chi can simply restore themselves to positive chi ability or if they require the use of other skills (like Mending Chi Kata) to repair the problem.

Also would these Negative Chi masters be as vulnerable to manipulation by skills or spells that manipulate and control people infected with Negative Chi? After all they aren't really infected it's part of their training to be able to fill themselves with Negative Chi and use it as desired.

Nightmask wrote:Always wondered about the situation where someone with a Negative Chi Mastery skill while in a positive chi state (after all they don't spend their time always negative, can't heal) gets due to a negative chi attack reduced to a negative chi state if they can use their ability to switch between positive and negative chi can simply restore themselves to positive chi ability or if they require the use of other skills (like Mending Chi Kata) to repair the problem.

The problem has to be repaired first. While your example involves a Negative Chi Master, he suffers from a Negative Chi Infection which will hinder his ability to switch back and forth between Positive and Negative Chi until he gets the Infection cleared.

Nightmask wrote:Also would these Negative Chi masters be as vulnerable to manipulation by skills or spells that manipulate and control people infected with Negative Chi? After all they aren't really infected it's part of their training to be able to fill themselves with Negative Chi and use it as desired.

If he is charged with Negative Chi by his own choice, he cannot be affected by skills or abilities that can manipulate a Negative Chi Infection, such as Contriol Negative Chi (MC pg 154-155). However there are skills and abilities out there that affect any form of Negative Chi, natural or infection (Spirit Burst, MC pg 162 comes to mind)

What was pointed out to me by the master of N&S. outside of EW, is that to be infected with neg. chi is to have neg. chi that was put in the char by some other char. (Someone else's neg. chi.) And the neg. chi manipulation powers are dependent on the target infected with neg. chi. Not, like infernals, to have neg. chi as their natural chi state or those who filled themselves with neg. chi.

Rider wrote:A negative chi master is empowered when he fills himself with his own negative chi, either by translating his positive or by absorbing it into the environment.

You need to reread the text concerning how the neg. chi master changes from + to - chi. There is no OR, it is only " by absorbing it from the environment"

Rider wrote:But when he is put into negative chi via attacks, it is the other person's chi that fills him. He has no control over that chi, rather the opponent does.

Correct

Rider wrote:I'm not sure but I think you need to have at least 1 point of positive chi to convert to a negative chi state, so I doubt someone who is out of chi or who is infected by negative would be able to convert to negative form.

I think this was left to GM discretion.

Nightmask wrote:Always wondered about the situation where someone with a Negative Chi Mastery skill while in a positive chi state (after all they don't spend their time always negative, can't heal)

They can with Chi magic; the Live On Negative Chi spell can last for days (at which point a paltry 8 PPE can start the ball rolling again), so that "normal rest, recovery and healing can take place while the body is infected with negative chi." So if you want to be a high-level Wu Shih spending pretty much all his time in a can-last-for-weeks Ride The Yin Tiger effect, using negative chi to go invisible at will and command the undead and walk to other worlds, you can keep it up even while mundanely recuperating from cuts and bruises.

Regularguy wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Always wondered about the situation where someone with a Negative Chi Mastery skill while in a positive chi state (after all they don't spend their time always negative, can't heal)

They can with Chi magic; the Live On Negative Chi spell can last for days (at which point a paltry 8 PPE can start the ball rolling again), so that "normal rest, recovery and healing can take place while the body is infected with negative chi." So if you want to be a high-level Wu Shih spending pretty much all his time in a can-last-for-weeks Ride The Yin Tiger effect, using negative chi to go invisible at will and command the undead and walk to other worlds, you can keep it up even while mundanely recuperating from cuts and bruises.

Except that the Wu Shih magic was added in Mystic China, well after Ninjas and Superspies came out. There was no option to be a negative chi master and have such magic (and just because you're a negative chi master doesn't mean you can't be harmed by things that target that like anyone else). The vast majority of Negative Chi masters are certainly not going to be Wu Shih, and even a high level Wu Shih can't afford those higher level spells like Ride The Yin Tiger, not unless they're a mutant animal cat or fox enjoying the hefty PPE bonuses that they receive and a really pumped up PE.

Nightmask wrote:

Regularguy wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Always wondered about the situation where someone with a Negative Chi Mastery skill while in a positive chi state (after all they don't spend their time always negative, can't heal)

They can with Chi magic; the Live On Negative Chi spell can last for days (at which point a paltry 8 PPE can start the ball rolling again), so that "normal rest, recovery and healing can take place while the body is infected with negative chi." So if you want to be a high-level Wu Shih spending pretty much all his time in a can-last-for-weeks Ride The Yin Tiger effect, using negative chi to go invisible at will and command the undead and walk to other worlds, you can keep it up even while mundanely recuperating from cuts and bruises.

Except that the Wu Shih magic was added in Mystic China, well after Ninjas and Superspies came out. There was no option to be a negative chi master and have such magic (and just because you're a negative chi master doesn't mean you can't be harmed by things that target that like anyone else). The vast majority of Negative Chi masters are certainly not going to be Wu Shih, and even a high level Wu Shih can't afford those higher level spells like Ride The Yin Tiger, not unless they're a mutant animal cat or fox enjoying the hefty PPE bonuses that they receive and a really pumped up PE.

*cough-Mystic Vajra-cough-cough*

Nightmask wrote:Except that the Wu Shih magic was added in Mystic China, well after Ninjas and Superspies came out. There was no option to be a negative chi master and have such magic

Yes, but there is now, and you wrote that you "always wondered about the situation where someone with a Negative Chi Mastery skill while in a positive chi state", adding that "they don't spend their time always negative, can't heal". I was merely pointing out that "someone with a Negative Chi Mastery skill" can now heal while spending his time always negative.

The vast majority of Negative Chi masters are certainly not going to be Wu Shih

They don't have to be; it's an 8 PPE spell, I figure any Chi Master working alongside a Wu Shih worth his salt can get a steady supply of celestial calligraphy.

and even a high level Wu Shih can't afford those higher level spells like Ride The Yin Tiger

What's the problem? He just pumps whatever PPE he can spare into the most high-powered piece of celestial calligraphy he can manage, and after replenishing himself to full spellcasting capability in his own right draws on said PPE stored in said script -- at which point he can keep the Yin Tiger effect going for weeks, giving him plenty of time to do the whole thing again when convenient.

JuliusCreed wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Regularguy wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Always wondered about the situation where someone with a Negative Chi Mastery skill while in a positive chi state (after all they don't spend their time always negative, can't heal)

They can with Chi magic; the Live On Negative Chi spell can last for days (at which point a paltry 8 PPE can start the ball rolling again), so that "normal rest, recovery and healing can take place while the body is infected with negative chi." So if you want to be a high-level Wu Shih spending pretty much all his time in a can-last-for-weeks Ride The Yin Tiger effect, using negative chi to go invisible at will and command the undead and walk to other worlds, you can keep it up even while mundanely recuperating from cuts and bruises.

Except that the Wu Shih magic was added in Mystic China, well after Ninjas and Superspies came out. There was no option to be a negative chi master and have such magic (and just because you're a negative chi master doesn't mean you can't be harmed by things that target that like anyone else). The vast majority of Negative Chi masters are certainly not going to be Wu Shih, and even a high level Wu Shih can't afford those higher level spells like Ride The Yin Tiger, not unless they're a mutant animal cat or fox enjoying the hefty PPE bonuses that they receive and a really pumped up PE.

*cough-Mystic Vajra-cough-cough*

Yeah that's always the quick response as if the things are coffee table items in every house and the spell is handed out to every beginning Wu Shih when he gets his first spell book rather than address the core issue, one that acknowledges that Vajra aren't common, the spell is hugely PPE intensive, and a Wu Shih without such items is woefully limited in PPE and can't even tap into Ley Lines or the PPE of others to augment their pitiful reserves to cast such costly spells.

Regularguy wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Except that the Wu Shih magic was added in Mystic China, well after Ninjas and Superspies came out. There was no option to be a negative chi master and have such magic

Yes, but there is now, and you wrote that you "always wondered about the situation where someone with a Negative Chi Mastery skill while in a positive chi state", adding that "they don't spend their time always negative, can't heal". I was merely pointing out that "someone with a Negative Chi Mastery skill" can now heal while spending his time always negative.

Only in a setting where Mystic China mages are also included AND available to the group, one member insists the game is all about MA masters and Wu Shih are intentionally limited so they aren't attractive characters to play or competitive with the non-mage classes.

Regularguy wrote:

Nightmask wrote:The vast majority of Negative Chi masters are certainly not going to be Wu Shih

They don't have to be; it's an 8 PPE spell, I figure any Chi Master working alongside a Wu Shih worth his salt can get a steady supply of celestial calligraphy.

That requires a Chi master having a Wu Shih (or Tao Shih, remember they can put that into Cellestial Calligraphy) around to help him. Those don't exist in a standard Ninjas and Superspies game. Most Negative Chi masters don't have that luxury.

Regularguy wrote:

Nightmask wrote:and even a high level Wu Shih can't afford those higher level spells like Ride The Yin Tiger

What's the problem? He just pumps whatever PPE he can spare into the most high-powered piece of celestial calligraphy he can manage, and after replenishing himself to full spellcasting capability in his own right draws on said PPE stored in said script -- at which point he can keep the Yin Tiger effect going for weeks, giving him plenty of time to do the whole thing again when convenient.

Wu Shih don't have more than a handful of PPE, they aren't going to pump up some serious piece of Celestial Calligraphy and do some kind of PPE farming like you suggest. He's certainly not going to work his way up to such PPE intensive spells with the casual ease being bandied about.

Nightmask wrote:Wu Shih don't have more than a handful of PPE, they aren't going to pump up some serious piece of Celestial Calligraphy and do some kind of PPE farming like you suggest. He's certainly not going to work his way up to such PPE intensive spells with the casual ease being bandied about.

Well, let's define terms. Since you think a high-level Wu Shih wouldn't "have more than a handful of PPE", just how much do you suppose he would have? I figure a Wu Shih with downright average rolls would have a PPE of 38 by 6th level and 45 by 11th level; does that sound about right to you?

I'll reply to my question to get the ball rolling; correct me where you think I'm wrong.

Figure a Wu Shih who starts off with 6d6+10 PPE and hits 31 by failing to roll better than average. Figure he fails to roll better than average with each d6 upon hitting 2nd and 4th level and so is up to 38. Figure he rolled a lackluster 12 PE, bumped it up to 15 with initial skills, and took Tai Chi to add 15 for 30 Chi at 1st level (doubled to 60, since a Wu Shih jumps straight to 3rd level). Figure he rolls no better than average with the d6 he gets at 3rd and 6th level to get a Chi of 67 -- which he doubles to 134 via Chi Overcharge.

So our 6th-level Wu Shih uses 34 of his 38 PPE to cast Evoke Animus Of Pure Chi; he replenishes as fast as he can convert his Chi into PPE and restock it; his Animus collects an excess point of Chi every round; in minutes (a) he's back to a 38 PPE, and (b) he and his Animus are each at 134 Chi; by converting Chi to PPE for spellcasting, he can spend 6 to Inscribe Celestial Calligraphy with a 75 PPE spell. So he does his best to pen an Evoke Animus Of Elemental Metal piece before replenishing himself back up again.

Figure he does something like that whenever he's got a few hours to spare.

He soon has plenty of those calligraphies; when he's got a lot more than he needs, he draws on the stored PPE in one, plus the 75 he can free up on his own, to have a go at inscribing 125 PPE Spit Dragon Pearl calligraphy. He soon has plenty of those, too.

To turn invisible and command the undead and walk to other worlds and so on, he draws on the stored PPE from a piece of Dragon Pearl calligraphy and adds his own 75 to cast Ride The Yin Tiger; he's a mere 6th-level Wu Shih, so the effect lasts for 6 days (and once per day he spends a mere 8 PPE to live on negative chi).

Now, the "high-level Wu Shih" has more PPE and more Chi to work with, and can Live On Negative Chi for days, and can Ride The Yin Tiger for weeks -- and at some point during those weeks he inscribes a Dragon Pearl calligraphy, for to cast Ride The Yin Tiger again. Leaving aside that he's probably got a big Chi Cache to boot, what am I missing?

Rider wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Rider wrote:A negative chi master is empowered when he fills himself with his own negative chi, either by translating his positive or by absorbing it into the environment.

You need to reread the text concerning how the neg. chi master changes from + to - chi. There is no OR, it is only " by absorbing it from the environment"

Hm, does that mean if I'm in an area of positive chi, I can't convert my positive chi into negative chi? I definitely gotta reread then.

Unless you have one of the chi katas in MC, if you are in a chi+ area you can't fill up with chi-.

Rider wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Rider wrote:A negative chi master is empowered when he fills himself with his own negative chi, either by translating his positive or by absorbing it into the environment.

You need to reread the text concerning how the neg. chi master changes from + to - chi. There is no OR, it is only " by absorbing it from the environment"

Hm, does that mean if I'm in an area of positive chi, I can't convert my positive chi into negative chi? I definitely gotta reread then.

You're being misinformed, nothing about negative chi mastery requires you to be in a negative chi environment. In fact as Mystic China notes there's some negative chi in even the most positive area and vice versa just as the Yin-Yang symbol shows. Negative Chi Mastery skills let you flush out your positive chi and fill with negative in 2 melee rounds (30 seconds) and vice versa, no restrictions are given or implied that the chi levels of your environment matter. The chi rating of environment only matters when using things like the Chi Ball Kata or Mending Chi Kata with regards to chi manipulating abilities.

Rider wrote:That's the impression I got, but drew does have a point, 'fill' doesn't necessarily mean there is a place to fill it from. If it were the old becoming the new, a word like 'transform' would've been easier to use.

Well as I noted there is no one flavor of chi in an area, a place of negative chi still has a measure of positive chi as well and vice versa as that's the nature of chi. Given the text makes no effort to say 'a negative chi master in a place of negative chi can replace his positive chi with negative chi in 2 melee rounds' and instead only states that he can replace his positive with negative over 2 melees then it must not be a restricted ability and can be used as desired no matter what the level of positive chi in an area. After all they're masters of negative chi, if anyone would be able to change over from positive to negative anywhere it would be them. Plus since some actual chi mastery abilities do depend on the chi of the area and they made the distinction there if they made no distinction about location a negative chi master can change his chi in there must not be a location limitation.