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is carpet of adhesion a visible carpet? I have read it more closely and it says it lays out a carpet. That would seem to me to mean a visible carpet that could be avoided.

It is up to the GM. The text, reading from the PF2 book, does not say one way or the other.

I play that it is not visible.

I have always played it off as a visible covering of sorts that just appears where the caster wills it to appear.

I play it as a very visible, very obviously magical sticky carpet like glooey flubber.

Rhomphaia wrote:I believe in RMB it states that it is a shimmering layer, so I sort of imagined it looking much like heat waves coming off the surface of whatever it is placed on.

Sort of like there is something to notice, If you are looking for something but can be overlooked by a tired or diverted mind?

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The RUE and the HU2 text of CoA appear to be C&P's from the PF2 text. (i.e.: no text about if it is visible or not.) The only thing to the RUE is a saving throw explanation si moved to the end of the descriptive text instead of being in the saving throw area.

I play as visible. Any nerf to it is good.

Some variants I just made up from the TtGD spell mod/create rules, using the PF2 spell as the standard.
(Unless otherwise stated the text of the spell is unchanged.)

Trap CoA
Range: 10' to the nearest edge.
Duration: 1 hour per level.
Saving throw: Don't step in it.
PPE: 48
The CoA creates an slight off color to the surface it is cast on. To avoid the CoA requires a perception roll of 18.
<blah blah the rest the same>

Bigger CoA
Range: 30'+10' per level to the nearest edge
Duration: same
Saving throw: Don't step in it.
PPE: 15
The area of affect is 200 square feet per level. The CoA creates an slight off color to the surface it is cast on. To avoid the CoA requires a perception roll of 18.
<blah blah the rest the same>


Bigger Badder CoA
Range: 30'+10' per level to the nearest edge
Duration: same
Saving throw: Don't step in it.
PPE: 18
The area of affect is 200 square feet at level one and doubles in size every level. The CoA creates an slight off color to the surface it is cast on. To avoid the CoA requires a perception roll of 18.
<blah blah the rest the same>

Sneaky CoA
Range: 30'+10' per level to the nearest edge or object
Duration: same
Saving throw: Don't step in it.
PPE: 12
The area of affect is 200 square feet per level or covering one object. The CoA creates an slight off color to the surface it is cast on. To avoid the CoA requires a perception roll of 18.

Sneaky Trap CoA
Range: 30'+10' per level to the nearest edge or object
Duration: 1 hour per level
Saving throw: Don't step in it.
PPE: 56
The area of affect is 200 square feet per level or covering one object. The CoA creates an slight off color to the surface it is cast on. To avoid the CoA requires a perception roll of 18.

Rhomphaia wrote:

Cinos wrote:I play as visible. Any nerf to it is good.

Not this crap again...

Carpet of Adhesion does need some adjustment, mainly in clarification of rules. However, it does not need a total blanket nerf. Also, if you think the spell is so broken where any nerf is good, why do you allow it in your games at all? I see a lot of inconsistency in your attitude.

Cutting off dodge in all games (something useful to avoid MD shots, even for super humans with auto-dodge) or completely removing X characters from a fight in non-ranged games (Palladium Fantasy, and to an extent, Nightbane) isn't super insanely good where it can win fights instantly with or without a save? Huh.

And I allow it in my games after fixing it. Before that I didn't. I'd care to see where this inconstancy is from given I pretty consistently point out balance flaws in every conversation I'm in to the point I bore even myself with it.

Rhomphaia wrote:

Cinos wrote:

Rhomphaia wrote:

Cinos wrote:I play as visible. Any nerf to it is good.

Not this crap again...

Carpet of Adhesion does need some adjustment, mainly in clarification of rules. However, it does not need a total blanket nerf. Also, if you think the spell is so broken where any nerf is good, why do you allow it in your games at all? I see a lot of inconsistency in your attitude.

Cutting off dodge in all games (something useful to avoid MD shots, even for super humans with auto-dodge) or completely removing X characters from a fight in non-ranged games (Palladium Fantasy, and to an extent, Nightbane) isn't super insanely good where it can win fights instantly with or without a save? Huh.

And I allow it in my games after fixing it. Before that I didn't. I'd care to see where this inconstancy is from given I pretty consistently point out balance flaws in every conversation I'm in to the point I bore even myself with it.

If you have to nerf or buff something to make it something completely different than it is as written, then why allow it in the game at all? Simply make it not available. It's easier and more consistent with an attitude that "X spell is too good".

As for your other point, there are other spells that have more of an "insta-kill" effect than CoA. Fear and Blinding Flash are two great examples. Fear is especially so since it is the only example I can find in any Palladium game that forces a (rather hefty) save vs Horror Factor every round. With either of these spells, those affected are completely removed from combat, not just rooted to one spot.

But, I will be nice here and give you some suggestions on how to balance CoA without changing a single letter of the spell as written. The first is an old GM axiom; "If it's good for the players, then it's good for the villains." When players start exploiting something with impunity, then have villains start doing the same. Another example of a counter-tactic is psychics. A Mind Melter or Mind Mage can pretty effectively counter a magic user. Even a minor psychic with the right powers can ruin a mage's day. Telepathy can be used to "scan" the crowd of PCs and it will pick up that a mage is casting a spell and the intended effect of the spell, including target area. Telekinesis can be used to obstruct a mage in any number of ways and See Aura can be used to identify a potential mage, instantly making that character a target.

Even those without psionics and magic can counter mages. Smoke bombs/grenades or their equivalents are available in vitually every PB setting, as are distracting noisemakers. Even basic tactics (which I would assume would be commonly used in settings like PF and Rifts) can counter magic. A particularly effective one is spacing; spread out so an area effect only catches one or two people, not the whole squad. Another tactic is simply targeting the ***hole spitting fireballs and farting lightning. Another tactic is using ranged combatants (ya know, guns or bows as per the setting) against the group. A final tactic is to put the fight in such close quarters that PCs are likely to get caught in the CoA as well. I am sure you can come up with more.

Carpet of Adhesion is actually pretty well balanced. Like I said, it could use some rules clarification, but that is basically just deciding on which version of the rules KS wants to use.

Goose and Gander is the tack I take with most players when they start to abuse anything. Rather than ban it out right, I just give them a taste of their own medicine and they usually calm down with it. It's a very effective tactic.

Rhomphaia wrote:As for your other point, there are other spells that have more of an "insta-kill" effect than CoA. Fear and Blinding Flash are two great examples. Fear is especially so since it is the only example I can find in any Palladium game that forces a (rather hefty) save vs Horror Factor every round. With either of these spells, those affected are completely removed from combat, not just rooted to one spot.

Whoa, time out! Fear doesn't have you saving vs Horror Factor every melee round.

Rhomphaia wrote:

The Beast wrote:

Rhomphaia wrote:As for your other point, there are other spells that have more of an "insta-kill" effect than CoA. Fear and Blinding Flash are two great examples. Fear is especially so since it is the only example I can find in any Palladium game that forces a (rather hefty) save vs Horror Factor every round. With either of these spells, those affected are completely removed from combat, not just rooted to one spot.

Whoa, time out! Fear doesn't have you saving vs Horror Factor every melee round.

And which version of the spell are you using?

Book of Magic, RMB, RUE, NB, HU2, and PFRPG2.

The Beast wrote:

Rhomphaia wrote:

The Beast wrote:

Rhomphaia wrote:As for your other point, there are other spells that have more of an "insta-kill" effect than CoA. Fear and Blinding Flash are two great examples. Fear is especially so since it is the only example I can find in any Palladium game that forces a (rather hefty) save vs Horror Factor every round. With either of these spells, those affected are completely removed from combat, not just rooted to one spot.

Whoa, time out! Fear doesn't have you saving vs Horror Factor every melee round.

And which version of the spell are you using?

Book of Magic, RMB, RUE, NB, HU2, and PFRPG2.

RUE does not say to roll every melee round if you fail when it is cast in you area or you move into the area you roll a save if you fail as long as you are in the area each round you suffer the negatives until the spell is cancelled, lapses, or you leave the area.

Rhomphaia wrote:If you have to nerf or buff something to make it something completely different than it is as written, then why allow it in the game at all? Simply make it not available. It's easier and more consistent with an attitude that "X spell is too good"..

Ok, if you wanna throw down, then so be it.

First, you assume I've made it something completely different then written based on . . . . What exactly? I recall saying I've changed it, but I didn't list a single thing about it. Is this me being inconsistent? You still didn't answer how I'm inconsistent by the by. When X Spell is too good or too bad, it should be adjusted to bring it either to be a useable without feeling bad about it, or that you're cheating yourself (as a player) of potential.

Rhomphaia wrote:As for your other point, there are other spells that have more of an "insta-kill" effect than CoA. Fear and Blinding Flash are two great examples. Fear is especially so since it is the only example I can find in any Palladium game that forces a (rather hefty) save vs Horror Factor every round. With either of these spells, those affected are completely removed from combat, not just rooted to one spot..

Both Fear and Blinding Flash have less lethal effects. Both still allow the afflicted to at least seek cover. I agree, they can be debilitating, but being debilitated AND robed the ability to remove yourself from a hostile zone, is far worse then just debilitated. Also, both allow a saving throw. And wait you say, so does carpet, but you're still stuck there for up to a full minute (about 45 Seconds longer then it takes to kill you while hapless), so it's nearly a save free spell. With Flash, I've at least got a 40% chance to not get screwed over, and even if I fail that, there's hope I can get behind cover, or get assistance from a buddy to pull me out of the line of fire. Fear is NOT in the same league, all it does is bump you to last, and means you can't stop the first hit. You're not penalized AT ALL after that aside until the start of the new round. You take 1 Hit as opposed to every hit for 1-4 rounds (or if you fail, minutes) with Carpet. AND you can still, you know, flee. Get behind cover or avoid that stuff that will actually deal the killing blow. Also, while a 16 looks pretty mean, against most classes in PF (The only books I have at hand), you generally need around a 12 to 14 to make the save, equal or slightly higher then ANY other save at the start AND it dimishes quickly as the game levels around the player, since aside from Pull Punch, PB likes to toss out Save vs HF to loads of classes as part of their progression, diminishing the use of the Fear spell heavily. A soldier can drop the save down to an 11, while at the time, the Wizard's Spell Strength goes up to far higher. Know what's hard to come by in levels? Save vs Magic.

Rhomphaia wrote:But, I will be nice here and give you some suggestions on how to balance CoA without changing a single letter of the spell as written. The first is an old GM axiom; "If it's good for the players, then it's good for the villains." When players start exploiting something with impunity, then have villains start doing the same. Another example of a counter-tactic is psychics. A Mind Melter or Mind Mage can pretty effectively counter a magic user. Even a minor psychic with the right powers can ruin a mage's day. Telepathy can be used to "scan" the crowd of PCs and it will pick up that a mage is casting a spell and the intended effect of the spell, including target area. Telekinesis can be used to obstruct a mage in any number of ways and See Aura can be used to identify a potential mage, instantly making that character a target..

Ok, now don't ever assume your dance partner needs help, because you'll tend to offend people. And if it's good for the players, and I should just go for it, I'll kill every group that dares step out of a town before they hit half way house to level 2. That's the problem with truly over powered things. See, a high powered gun the players can play around to avoid getting on the receiving end. They can sneak up on him, make shields to help deter it, heck, even SD cover helps as a visual barricade to reduce the big guns accuracy, even if it won't stop the gun. They can use decoy players who will focus on dodging while others move in to flank, or out gun the big gun, finding a longer range, use of missiles or other explosives to undermine the persons superior position. With Carpet, that's a little harder. And any player is 100% justified using high powered options simply handed to them by the game Engine. It's called being an intelligent human being. Do I look down on a player for using Possession just because it's very powerful? No, I look towards the game engine to ensure these high powered options come at some limitation, price, or accessible counter. Just because a player 'goes there' doesn't mean you should just start butchering parties because they started it and should know better then to use obvious simple tactics like "Immobilize the enemy then shoot them to death", and while the bad guys can still fire back, the players can run and gun, remain in cover, flank to mitigate enemy cover, and STILL DODGE. Meaning they'll have a huge edge that almost removes the point of even having combat, or at the least, rolling for it. Heck one party I had kept 2 people with Carpet, and the rest utilized long range options, the casters would sneak in (both conventional Prowl, as well as things like Shadow Meld / Invisibility, while the rest of the party just snipped off the trapped rats like nothing. The only good counter was aerial forces (Close quarters fighting was moot, since trapping and explosives was pretty good too when your opponents can't get out of the close blast (no grenade bouncing either!). Another would carpet himself (or a party member), and barrel through to an opponent they needed to take alive, only adding to the utilitarian nature of the spell. Stopped bikers right fast too.

As to the psionics. Guess what Psionics don't have? Unlimited ISP. With a normal Psionic, they can expect to restore 8 Hours of meditation, which happens to line up nicely with 8 Sense Auras, before they start getting in the hole for that day, so that's 4 minutes. Not super long AND you have to be aware that the mage is going to do this, oh, and be in 60 feet. Guess which power has the threat range on that? So not only do you need to be aware this is the tactic the mage is using, BUT you already need to be in spitting distance and know about where they are. So that's not really a counter. Telepathy? Same range, though being an omni-directional thing, has slightly better odds, and is cheaper and longer lasting (Thus far more efficient), but in a crowd of 30, that leaves the GM to make rules on the fly as to how the telepath can do this, how long they need to listen (Can only listen in to one person at a time mind you), also, psionic would need some knowlage as to what Carpet sounds like, more so if you're in an area known for mages. What if the caster can keep a clear mind while working? When I jump I'm not thinking "JUMP!", even when I'm working the forklift at work, I'm not broadcasting the actions I take to it in my surface thoughts, I'm normally pondering other things because they're pretty second nature, like a soldier aiming or a caster casting. So much for those being effective counters to Carpet.

Rhomphaia wrote:Even those without psionics and magic can counter mages. Smoke bombs/grenades or their equivalents are available in vitually every PB setting, as are distracting noisemakers. Even basic tactics (which I would assume would be commonly used in settings like PF and Rifts) can counter magic. A particularly effective one is spacing; spread out so an area effect only catches one or two people, not the whole squad. Another tactic is simply targeting the ***hole spitting fireballs and farting lightning. Another tactic is using ranged combatants (ya know, guns or bows as per the setting) against the group. A final tactic is to put the fight in such close quarters that PCs are likely to get caught in the CoA as well. I am sure you can come up with more..

So, how do noisemakers counter carpet? Do these screech bottles some how stop arrows? Do smoke bombs some how deflect grenade fragments? Smoke helps a bit, but not really because they can just lay into your area, AND you blind yourself to counter attacks. Spacing allows you to get flanked rather badly after a mage picks a destroys a hole carpeting the guy holding a flank, and now you've got a breach and you're other guys are getting shot in the back. This is more true in cityscapes and buildings where you don't get a choice about spacing (hit, modern warfare is dominated by these city fights), and in fantasy, rank and file and should to shoulder fighting ARE commonly accepted tactica in worlds dominated by the spear and sword (because against those other people holding spears and swords, it's rather effective). This is likely why Carpet was omitted from PF's core book (and I think still is, though cross over magic is rather accepted). Combat in pretty much every setting aside from PF don't fight in open fields because it's rather stupid. One side realizes they are out numbered / out gunned / out whatevered and hole up where guerilla style fighting is more advantageous to them then their enemy. So as to the ***hole spitting fireball. Why are they casting a fire ball and not just like, blending in? Call Lightning is a useful spell not because it gains respectable damage, but because its extremely subtle. Your Aura trick would work well here, but again range comes into high problem, 60 feet isn't very far, and from that distance you'll just HEAR him incantation by then. So maybe it's not a good trick after all. Also, the spell states 100% the mage can control the shape of the Carpet, so they can very easily remove their friends from it, even leave a nice little path behind the trapped person so their buddies can save ammo and just throat slit. And as to guns, guess what, players are proactive creatures, at least they are up here, and they won't just let you bring a fight to them, they'll do every last thing in their power to avoid getting the drop on them with any reasonability. They will keep a fight on there terms because they full well know they'll lose fights not on their terms. And because they're ALREADY packing guns to use Carpet whenever they can, they can play a straight up shoot out well enough that they're playing to their strengths (all the while a mage that can't be seen is sneaking on up to play their trump card in this case).

Rhomphaia wrote:Carpet of Adhesion is actually pretty well balanced. Like I said, it could use some rules clarification, but that is basically just deciding on which version of the rules KS wants to use.

So, in short (that's TL;DR for you net junkies out there), no. No Carpet of Adhesion is not pretty well balanced, it's a monster of a spell that the bulk of PB players ignore because they don't play the game heavily focused on focused combat, and use it as a story telling setting they like. However, the spell is highly broken, and very easily abused by any group wishing to do so. It needs a re-working. As to KS, from what I hear, he house rules the heck out of his con games (HIS CON GAMES, get it? It's his game and he house rules it? Oh wait, that's not actually a punch line, it just depresses me). Also, HE felt the need not to include it in 2nd Edition Fantasy. I suspect there is a reason for it.

drakinn wrote:

The Beast wrote:

Rhomphaia wrote:

The Beast wrote:

Rhomphaia wrote:As for your other point, there are other spells that have more of an "insta-kill" effect than CoA. Fear and Blinding Flash are two great examples. Fear is especially so since it is the only example I can find in any Palladium game that forces a (rather hefty) save vs Horror Factor every round. With either of these spells, those affected are completely removed from combat, not just rooted to one spot.

Whoa, time out! Fear doesn't have you saving vs Horror Factor every melee round.

And which version of the spell are you using?

Book of Magic, RMB, RUE, NB, HU2, and PFRPG2.

RUE does not say to roll every melee round if you fail when it is cast in you area or you move into the area you roll a save if you fail as long as you are in the area each round you suffer the negatives until the spell is cancelled, lapses, or you leave the area.

Uh, that's what I said...

The Beast wrote:

Rhomphaia wrote:

The Beast wrote:

Rhomphaia wrote:As for your other point, there are other spells that have more of an "insta-kill" effect than CoA. Fear and Blinding Flash are two great examples. Fear is especially so since it is the only example I can find in any Palladium game that forces a (rather hefty) save vs Horror Factor every round. With either of these spells, those affected are completely removed from combat, not just rooted to one spot.

Whoa, time out! Fear doesn't have you saving vs Horror Factor every melee round.

And which version of the spell are you using?

Book of Magic, RMB, RUE, NB, HU2, and PFRPG2.

The fear spell you roll once "vs HF" when entering the effect area or it is cast on the area you are in.

If you fail the "vs HF" roll then the effects of the failed HF roll persist till "end of spell" or "exiting the effect area".

Nice meta-magic CoA spells.
You should post them in the 'invented magic' topic in the magic&Psi forum.