Question About Talents

[chef1]

I'm going to be running my first nightbane campaign hopefully soon with my gaming group. The problem i see I'm going to be have when my players makeup their characters is with the talents. I know they have a list of talents in the book but then I read something called creating new talents. It said nightbane talents are said to be limited only by the imagination and willpower of each person. I have a few players already wanting to make some outrageous talents! I'm thinking i might want my players to use the talents in the book. Should i let them create there own talents or get the ones from the book? What should I do? Thanks everyone

[drewkitty ~..~]

What should I do?

You should do what you feel you can handle.

Should i let them create there own talents or get the ones from the book?

I would let them have one unique talent that they have thought up each. You as the GM need to ether make up the talents they thought up or make the talent up with the player sharing input to the making.

I wrote up the following a while back, when the rifter and NB was new.

When a Nightbane makes a talent that is based on a spell there is some difference between how the talent will act and cost. I've run into the situation where I wanted to make a talent that was close to a spell that was on the books, and the gm had ruled that the cost to use it would of been equal to that of the spell. But this would of made a talent that was out preportion of the rest of the other talents on the lists. Has this ever happened to you? This is why I came up with this system to calculate the P.P.E. costs, both permenten to buy costs and the to use costs.

The first thing you do is find the P.P.E. cost of the spell and the level of the spell. The level of the spell is the base permanent cost of the talent. The you take the spell P.P.E. cost and that is your base to use cost for same range and duration as the spell. However, most of the time the spell give the rang and duration in feet per level or minutes per level while talents, for the most part have a set range and duration. To lessen the to use costs you can do few things, such as decress the range, decress the duration, put limitations on the usage. Increasing the permanent cost of the talent can also be raised to lower the usage costs. By raising the permanent cost by 1 point will decrease the usage cost by at least 2 but no more then 4 (GM discresion). Dropping the per level increases of range and duration each will lessen the usage cost by 20% each.

The usage costs is equal to the base usage cost of the spell being mimiced minius the modifications and limitations to be included into the talent.

activation P.P.E. = Spell P.P.E. - range modifivations - duration modifications - other limitations

The permament cost is equal to the Spell level and the additional desired amount of usage costs reduction.

Acquiering P.P.E. = Spell level + any additonal reduction of the activationd P.P.E.

Here is a example of how a spell such as Mute can be mimiced by a talent.
Base spell costs: mute  L9 (50) 30 feet
Base talent cost with out any modifications: 9 perm , 50 tepm....5min per L...30 feet 
Finished Talent
Shadow Hand of Gagging--this talent is an extention of the Bane's will, at first this talent will apper at a time of great annoyance by a person. The SHoG appers as a shadowy hand that flys out from the Bane's own hand to the sorce of annoyance and clamps onto the annoyer's mouth causing him to be unable to speak. This talent can not dose not affect the annoyer's brething in any way.  So it can't be used to suffocate them. This talent can be used on mages to stop them from casting spells.
limitations--can only be used in morphius, and the Bane must be in Line of Sight of the annoyer when used, to use SHoG the Bane must make a gasping gesture at the annoyer, range 20 feet per Level. can only be dodged, and only if the annoyer has seen SHoG in use before hand.
costs--perm ppe cost--10 , cost to activate--10 per 10 min.(up front or mantained)
Note--The LOS also means that the user need to be able to see the target area...the mouth..so it has to be used in plane sight of the target.

[Shark_Force]

if the talents they want to create are outrageous, then they should have an outrageous cost.

if they're so outrageous that it would make the game unplayable for the power to be used at all, disallow it (for example, a talent that just makes a given target die, regardless of defenses: too good to ever be allowed). if you think the talent is just really really really good, then so long as it won't trivialize everything, go for it... but make it expensive. it should cost a lot of permanent PPE to know, and a lot of PPE to activate, and potentially should have other limitations.

but also, as was pointed out... if you're not comfortable with a given talent, don't allow it. if you think it's too much, then just say no. if they want that talent so badly, they can be the GM and you can make a character with that talent.

[Jedrious]

Also note that Warwolf has stated that in dark Designs, he plans on having talent creation guidelines published, I would suggest that you have your players make characters with the standard talents to get the feel of their characters and then once Dark Designs comes out give them the option of further customization

[chef1]

Thanks everyone. If they want to make a talent ill give it some thought and let them get talents from the main book and the nightbane survival guide.

[Warwolf]

Thanks everyone. If they want to make a talent ill give it some thought and let them get talents from the main book and the nightbane survival guide.

Exactly as it should be. I do have some of the guidelines laid out already, but obviously they haven't gone through the editing process. When it comes to power-level, try to look at similar powers. Parse out the cost of the printed ability, how the prospective player or G.M.-created Talent is stronger, how it is weaker, and then make a ruling.

One of the things I plan on trying to clarify is that while Nightbane can wish to do anything, exactly how that ability manifests may be slightly different then what the 'Bane wanted. For example: a Nightbane may wish to be able to set an entire city on fire. Obviously, that's a bit beyond the scope of powers granted by a Talent to a single Nightbane. Instead, they might end up with a more powerful version of Ignite Fire... perhaps something more on the scale of a Burster but with an increased cost as well. This still lets them potentially light an entire city on fire, just not all at once. Just try to keep game balance in mind on top of setting flavor and "cool factor" and you should be fine.

Then again, I would also suggest a caveat with your players along the lines of "I reserve the right to adjust or restrict this Talent at a later date if I've somehow missed something at first." This will hopefully keep the "but you approved it" complaints from wrecking your game down the line if the player finds some kind of loophole that you miss.

There are other little tricks and intricacies, but if I put them all here it would make putting that section in the book a bit of a moot point. Best of luck, chef1. And remember, if you need some extra help in tweaking a Talent, there are several people on this board that should be more than qualified to help you. Granted, I'll avoid looking at it in an attempt to prevent someone from claiming I hijacked their work, but from what I know of several of the fans here they should be able to give you an idea of what will be balanced or not.

[Incriptus]

Custom talents are not allowed at level 1. Metagame reason, you're not ready for it, you need more experence realizing the balance [or lack thereof] with the existing talents. In game reason, they have no experience, they'll be able to manifest those that come naturally/instinctively to 'bain but it'll take some time to create something new & unique. I'm a spiteful GM so I would say that at level 4, 7, & 10 [I think] when a bane gets a free power, you can allow them to manifest a custom power, that has been approved by the GM [and subject to rebalancing], by spending PPE

[drewkitty ~..~]

Custom talents are not allowed at level 1

You got a book page reference for this? Or did you forget the words "In my <group/games>..."?

-------------------------

One of my first NS chars I made was a char that has a Macross Valkaree w/SAP packs for a morphus. (See the RT super-VT for a reference picture.) I had to create three unique talents and mod a 4th to make the char. One of the talents ate up so much Perm PPE that at L1-L4 the char could barely use it's talents.

When I stopped playing the char, it only had one canon Talent out of the eight it had.

[Incriptus]

Custom talents are not allowed at level 1

You got a book page reference for this? Or did you forget the words "In my <group/games>..."?

it's not cannonical

but since i was answering

What should I do?

I don't think it was nessessary, expecially when offering a meta game answer and the over all tone of the post.

But I realise that tones can be easily missed on a forum, so I apologise for any misunderstanding.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Custom talents are not allowed at level 1

You got a book page reference for this? Or did you forget the words "In my <group/games>..."?

it's not canonical

but since i was answering

What should I do?

I don't think it was necessary, especially when offering a meta game answer and the over all tone of the post.

But I realize that tones can be easily missed on a forum, so I apologize for any misunderstanding.

A nice turn of phrase would be "I would not allow them." Or "I'd not allow them till I was comfortable with the talents given in the book."

If advice is being asked for by an New GM/GM new to a setting (which this was), then give answers in the form of advice being given. This encourages them to make their own decisions.

[MurderCityDisciple]

Custom talents are not allowed at level 1

You got a book page reference for this? Or did you forget the words "In my <group/games>..."?

it's not canonical

but since i was answering

What should I do?

I don't think it was necessary, especially when offering a meta game answer and the over all tone of the post.

But I realize that tones can be easily missed on a forum, so I apologize for any misunderstanding.

A nice turn of phrase would be "I would not allow them." Or "I'd not allow them till I was comfortable with the talents given in the book."

If advice is being asked for by an New GM/GM new to a setting (which this was), then give answers in the form of advice being given. This encourages them to make their own decisions.

My players are reasonable types, so I don't have any problems with going too far.

I have seen a few Nightbane in online games (i was lurking) that were frikken ridiculous...like 6 different attributes and 6 killer talents. I wouldn't let that slide.

It has to make some kind of sense...the one in question was an winged, armored bug with gun arms and motorcycle legs.

[dargo83]

theres a talent that is called anti-arcane that negates other nightbane talents

[Havoc]

I'm sorry dargo83 but anti-arcane doesn't affect talents, just magic. Talents are not spells they are supernatural abilities that use PPE, think of them like a demons natural abilities but instead of unlimited or so many times a day use they cost PPE.
Look up negation of magic on pg 141 in Nightspawn, it says that spell has no effect against phychic abilities or nightspawn talents.

[TechnoGothic]

Thanks everyone. If they want to make a talent ill give it some thought and let them get talents from the main book and the nightbane survival guide.

Don't forget Talents from NB-Nightlands, NB-Beyond the Shadows, etc...also

On a Side Note...
I look over the proposed Talents. I usually make them into Elite Talents or General Talents, as normal, but i usually throw in a Level restriction, usually level 5.

I have not had a problem with players creating too many Talents though. My group seems to wait for the Free Talents usually. Because they do not wish to waste Permanent PPE on buying the Talents.

Most of the Talents they have created have been simple. Create Cloths, Create Weapons, create armor type of stuff. Stuff to help them create mundane-ish items. Or Talents that allow them communicate to others like Translation Talents. One for reading, one for speaking. But I do have one Player who seems to want to create a Talent for each Magic Tattoo in Rifts Atlantis. I don't have a problem with it, cause he has the Tattoo Characateristic, so it kinda fit his theme. As he creates new Talents, he gains new "tattooes" for them.

[dargo83]

my bad on the anti-arcane talent i was thinking of the anti-arcane effects of the artifacts from nightlands book

[Nekira Sudacne]

Yes, I heard there were enemies that could negate talents of the nightbanes. I was wondering if you could tell me of a few and if possible which book they were in. Thanks.

there is no one that can negate the talents of nightbanes. you heard wrongly.

[Jedrious]

Yes, I heard there were enemies that could negate talents of the nightbanes. I was wondering if you could tell me of a few and if possible which book they were in. Thanks.

there is no one that can negate the talents of nightbanes. you heard wrongly.

Not true
Shadows of Light->Psi-Dampener->Dampening Field "Any ability that is powered by I.S.P. or P.P.E. is scrambled and effectively turned off or ruduced in strength."

Seeing as this is a Nightbane book, I'm pretty sure they would have added a clause in there saying that Nightbane talents were immune if they weren't going to be covered by this power.

[Nightmask]

Yes, I heard there were enemies that could negate talents of the nightbanes. I was wondering if you could tell me of a few and if possible which book they were in. Thanks.

there is no one that can negate the talents of nightbanes. you heard wrongly.

Astral Lords/Mages can, if they made that part of the feature of their realm and can get the Nightbane into it.

[dargo83]

it negates talents and spells based off how much ppe the artifact has and how many ppe the spell or talent is.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The exorcism spell as a talent.

Exorcism Bolts
Produces a bolt of darkness that when it strikes a being that is possessed, it forces the possessing entity out of the victims body and limits the entity's ability to repossess the victim by giving the victim a +6 vs possession for 3 min.
If the possessing entity is not able to reestablish a link to another victim in the immediate area (15' radius from the victim) they are ether expelled from this dimension (01-62) or they are expelled from the immediate area and is not able to return to the area for 3 months (63-00). The possessing entity one gets one chance to possess a victim before getting expelled one way or the other.

Can be used on demons to expel them from the dimension if they fail a save vs magic vs 10. The NS gets a bonus to this save [making it more difficult for the demon to save] of +1 per level.
Perm cost to acquire: 20 PPE
PPE cost to activate: 10 PPE

[drewkitty ~..~]

I like the idea of using TtGD rules on inventing spells and applying that to Talents, except we should figure out how Talents relate to spells by comparing similar powers. The easiest way is to look at the damage ones.

In this case, Shadow Blast/Shield vs. Fireball / Magic Armor.

I'm having trouble doing that though because spells get more damage per PPE over time, whereas talents simply let you spend more PPE to get more damage. FB/MA also get a high base amount in addition to their amount per level.

Or we could compare some of the mirror talents to mirror magic in TtGD...

The problem is that Talents are not spells and neither translate to the other formate directly. This is because each talent made is very subjective to the char that 1st makes it up. That is why the guidelines I made up end up just helping with the PPE calculations, while leaving the "what the talent actually does" open to their decision.


To work with the example I gave with the guidelines. If you have three different GMs, you should get three different talents that are similar in nature. Thus the next two talents made from the same formula are also possible.

Pie Hole Plug-- this talent makes a glob of dark energy that the NightSpawn can put onto someone face that makes it that the target can not speak by not letting any sound be made. This glob of dark energy can be slapped onto the target or be thrown. Ether way the glob does not effect the target's ability to breathe.
limitations--can only be used in morphus, range 20 feet per Level. can only be dodged if thrown, if applied with a melee attack it is dodged normally, but the glob can be applied during any time during it's duration.
costs--perm ppe cost--10 , cost to activate--10 per 10 min.(up front or maintained)


Put a Fork in It- this talent pinches the target's talking orifice shut with an energy fork that seams to pierce the orifice closed. The NightSpawn must be able to make a melee attack to put the fork in place . The fork will effect the breathing of the target if the speaking orifice is also used for breathing.
limitations--can only be used in morphius, range 20 feet per Level. When applying, the melee attack it is dodged normally, but the fork can be applied during any time during it's duration.
costs--perm ppe cost--10 , cost to activate--10 per 10 min.(up front or maintained)

[Nekira Sudacne]

The problem is that Talents are not spells and neither translate to the other formate directly. This is because each talent made is very subjective to the char that 1st makes it up. That is why the guidelines I made up end up just helping with the PPE calculations, while leaving the "what the talent actually does" open to their decision.

I see your point there, but the idea basically is to find a talent and spell that're similar (sadly closes matches I could find were still very different) and figure out differences between them in cost or whatever, in case someone was trying to convert a spell to a power, or trying to make a new talent based on the spell creation rules.

Another good one to compare might be 'reshape facade' versus 'metamorphosis: human' right?

And that's the problem, just because spells and talents result in something similar dosn't mean they are close metaphysically.

Reshape facade is a shapechange. your taking the nightbanes already maleable nature and redesigning it in a limited way. It assumes the base of facade already being indistigshable from human, for starters, and then that it be nightbane and innately prone to this.

Metamorphasis human will take ANYTHING THAT EXSISTS and turn it into a human. it works as easially on a Splurgorth as a teste fly.

Metaphysically speaking, they are utterlly different, and cannot be used to form any kind of equivlence.