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CoalitionMerc wrote:Ok so i was wondering how does a character switch Hand to Hand styles? lets say from Basic to expert? and how does it switch?

Officially, you don't. You improve at the one you have. I haven't even really seen any house rules for it.

Brian

Figure cost of upgrades (Same as buying improved versions at creation). When a character has a new skill seletion coming to them on level, they can spend as many skills as they can until the upgrade cost is met (in the case of requiring 2+ Skills for an upgrade). Once done, replace old Hand to Hand with the new one at the current level.

^That is what I used back when I used normal rules., it's simple and easy.

BillionSix wrote:

CoalitionMerc wrote:Ok so i was wondering how does a character switch Hand to Hand styles? lets say from Basic to expert? and how does it switch?

Officially, you don't. You improve at the one you have. I haven't even really seen any house rules for it.

Brian

When you level up and get a skill and take the next level h2h. The that h2h replaces the old h2h.

There are optional rules in Rifter #30 that allow any character to learn any skill as long as he has a teacher and the time.

I know I've seen rules for this, the basic take away was that, when learning a different H2H skill, the old one is frozen in place and the new one starts at first level proficiency, use only the higher of the two's bonuses, not both. ie: If one is giving +2 to strike and the other is giving +1, you use the +2 not a +3.

In normal adventuring, this usually comes up through class change, or using the multi-class rules just on the H2H. ie: Freezing the old at one level, going a level, then picking up the new at the following level.
Now, in theory, we can use the rules from the modern settings as well to spend time and money learning new skills, which comes to around 2-4 years with a decent amount of time spent each day.

So you have a level 3 character who is a cashier at a bank. The Zombie Apocalypse occurs and the character has to defend there self or die.

So the character picks up a gun and base ball bat. Not possessing the WP’s for these weapons (WP Handguns and WP Blunt respectively) for some time the character is not going to be proficient at using the weapons. But provided they survive and continue to use these weapons as a GM I would feel inclined to have the character learn WP Handguns and WP Blunt as a role playing bonus.

The same can be done with H2H as well. Said a cashier at a bank in the above example has no H2H either, but in the course of defending him or herself from the zombie horde he or she would learn some H2H basics and be rewarded with H2H Basic as a role playing bonus.

Now further on down the line this former bank cashier turned Zombie Apocalypse survivor joins up with someone who knows martial arts training. Over time the former bank cashier turned Zombie Apocalypse survivor learn H2H Martial arts. I would be inclined to use the rules outlined in N&SS where a character who has to state at the beginning of the round which H2H they intend on using.

Looonatic wrote:There are optional rules in Rifter #30 that allow any character to learn any skill as long as he has a teacher and the time.

You could just use the continuing education rules from HU2.

You can sometimes add a new H2H style, but you never lose your old one.

Seem to recall in Ninjas & Superspies that if you possess multiple forms you need to pick one at the beginning of a melee round and stick to it for the whole round. Thats the style which gives you your basic attacks and all the bonuses. If you switch next round then you get those skills and bonuses instead.
This is why its easier to keep one big sheet (typed) of all the bonuses you get from each style and not put them on your main sheet.
It also means every combat you will have to go through an manually add everything up.

Shorty Lickens wrote:You can sometimes add a new H2H style, but you never lose your old one.

Seem to recall in Ninjas & Superspies that if you possess multiple forms
...snip

The Dedicated Martial Artist
This is the only char in the game who has two (2) complete martial art forms. This is also the char with the most sheltered existence. With the exception of trips between schools, the char has seen almost nothing of the real world. Dedicated martial artists start out with the bare minimum of skills simply because they haven't had time to learn anything else.

Unless your char is a DMA, the new h2h replaces the old h2h.

Make sure of your facts before basing an opinion on them.

Rifts China note: the selecting of h2h's in rifts china is choosing the mix and match halves ;physical and mystical; that make a complete MAF.

Guys like you are the reason I stopped posting a year ago.

Have fun with your ego, good day.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Shorty Lickens wrote:You can sometimes add a new H2H style, but you never lose your old one.

Seem to recall in Ninjas & Superspies that if you possess multiple forms
...snip

The Dedicated Martial Artist
This is the only char in the game who has two (2) complete martial art forms. This is also the char with the most sheltered existence. With the exception of trips between schools, the char has seen almost nothing of the real world. Dedicated martial artists start out with the bare minimum of skills simply because they haven't had time to learn anything else.

Unless your char is a DMA, the new h2h replaces the old h2h.

Make sure of your facts before basing an opinion on them.

Rifts China note: the selecting of h2h's in rifts china is choosing the mix and match halves ;physical and mystical; that make a complete MAF.

Knowing people IN REAL LIFE that know several martial arts styles on top of other skills, I'm inclined to let players select multiple hand-to-hand skills as long as they have the selections necessary or invest the time using HU2 education rules. Of course, with Basic, Expert, and Martial Arts, I see them as a hierarchical progression that would replace one another as you moved up the chain.

Warwolf wrote:Knowing people IN REAL LIFE that know several martial arts styles on top of other skills, I'm inclined to let players select multiple hand-to-hand skills as long as they have the selections necessary or invest the time using HU2 education rules. Of course, with Basic, Expert, and Martial Arts, I see them as a hierarchical progression that would replace one another as you moved up the chain.

That is real life, not the game.
Feel free to post your house rules, but remember to post them as house rules and not as if they were canon.

I for one answer the questions 1st with the canon answer if there is one. And then post my house rules with something that says they are not canon. Such as "my opinion", "the way I would rule", "The way we do it."

There is enough arguing over what is canon with just the text that is given, to include everybody's house rules included into the mix.

No matter how logical they seam, they are still house rules, not canon.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Warwolf wrote:Knowing people IN REAL LIFE that know several martial arts styles on top of other skills, I'm inclined to let players select multiple hand-to-hand skills as long as they have the selections necessary or invest the time using HU2 education rules. Of course, with Basic, Expert, and Martial Arts, I see them as a hierarchical progression that would replace one another as you moved up the chain.

That is real life, not the game.

Well going with what occurs in the real world sometimes make more sense then going with what's in the book.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:That is real life, not the game.
Feel free to post your house rules, but remember to post them as house rules and not as if they were canon.

I for one answer the questions 1st with the canon answer if there is one. And then post my house rules with something that says they are not canon. Such as "my opinion", "the way I would rule", "The way we do it."

Man that's such a good idea, why dons't the quoted poster your beratning do that?!

Warwolf wrote:I'm inclined to let

Oh wait. What's that? He did? Oh, well that fixes that. I'm inclined to let" Should make it apparent to anyone reason this in English that this is not a canonical statement, but his opinion, what given with what the definition of 'Inclined' is.

On to the whole "It's not real life yodda yodda", first, the point of RPG's, by and large, is to simulate reality to an extent (Of course some games mock that viewpoint). That's why the -10 to Dodge shots is there, and why Kevin has a long standing rant about why there is no Neutral alignment, because he didn't think it reflective of how people truly are. There are natural exceptions to these 'reality rules' rules, but they're glaring, they're there and obvious. Like Fireballs. Or they are there because super science is hard to predict and squeeze into games (like Rail Guns). However, this RPG still represents reality through the use of rules. And one of the things about reality is that people can learn (if not completely master) several forms of Martial Arts. Using rules borrowed from Ninja's & Super Spies (I.E the hand to hands, given that the normal versions in other games aren't really variations, just a better / worse), and allowing characters to know more then one, and then switch between them as needed makes complete logical sense. More so when it's completely clear that its a house rule and not canon.

Warwolf wrote:
Knowing people IN REAL LIFE that know several martial arts styles on top of other skills, I'm inclined to let players select multiple hand-to-hand skills as long as they have the selections necessary or invest the time using HU2 education rules. Of course, with Basic, Expert, and Martial Arts, I see them as a hierarchical progression that would replace one another as you moved up the chain.

martial artists in N&SS aren't likely to be like those people you know. the N&SS characters are supposed to be experts in the particular martial art, to the point they gain various "mystical' benifits from the training. even a lv1 character represents better than a black belt from a real world perspective. (although it's not a direct translation, due to game balancing stuff)

the number of people who can train to those levels in more than two forms are likely to be pretty rare.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

Warwolf wrote:
Knowing people IN REAL LIFE that know several martial arts styles on top of other skills, I'm inclined to let players select multiple hand-to-hand skills as long as they have the selections necessary or invest the time using HU2 education rules. Of course, with Basic, Expert, and Martial Arts, I see them as a hierarchical progression that would replace one another as you moved up the chain.

martial artists in N&SS aren't likely to be like those people you know. the N&SS characters are supposed to be experts in the particular martial art, to the point they gain various "mystical' benifits from the training. even a lv1 character represents better than a black belt from a real world perspective. (although it's not a direct translation, due to game balancing stuff)

the number of people who can train to those levels in more than two forms are likely to be pretty rare.

Not as rare as you might think, especially if said person starts young. Besides, the player characters are most often intended to be those "rare" individuals that are a cut above the rest. That said, I've never had a character use the martial arts out of N&SS. If I did, they most certainly wouldn't get any of the Chi powers or anything like that if it were selected as a second hand-to-hand except perhaps in ver specific (and well justified) cases. For example, if for any reason the story skipped or a character disappeared for a couple of years, the player might be able to reason that the character had spent those intervening years studying the new martial art but that's ALL they would have been doing. I'm referring more to the basic bonus structure and moves lists of the various hand-to-hand skills, like some of the non-magical ones out of Rifts: China or Japan.

I will take a moment to note my previous comments apply to the regular H2H styles and levels available to all characters.
Commentary on Ninjas & Superspies' advanced martial arts with special chi powers, and other similarly advanced H2H styles, is a whole other ball of wax, requiring a great deal dedication, a heavy time investment, and a more skilled teacher with at least as much dedication and time.
Though if the GM is honestly willing to give a player the time, opportunity, and a teacher, it should still be doable.

Also of note is that the quoted Dedicated Martial Artist is referring to learning, knowing, and actively using two different martial arts at the same time (and again these are hardcore chi-power wielding styles as well). Normally, learning a new H2H freezes the old at the level it was at when the character started practicing to learn new one, never to be raised again.