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Merc-ops page 118

it costs 790,000 credits.

A skelebot may cost more, but is far better.

Recharges a long clip (30 shots) in 90 seconds, very portable, and can defend itself if need be.

Mikal wrote:

Rimmer wrote:A skelebot may cost more, but is far better.

Recharges a long clip (30 shots) in 90 seconds, very portable, and can defend itself if need be.

Which doesn't help when you're making a shop in a kingdom. Can't really get customers in to go refill at the freaky death-bot.

Nothing a can of paint and a metal file couldn't solve !

Mikal wrote: freaky death-bot.

I am calling the next Rifts Operator shop I create by this name.......

Rimmer wrote:

Mikal wrote:

Rimmer wrote:A skelebot may cost more, but is far better.

Recharges a long clip (30 shots) in 90 seconds, very portable, and can defend itself if need be.

Which doesn't help when you're making a shop in a kingdom. Can't really get customers in to go refill at the freaky death-bot.

Nothing a can of paint and a metal file couldn't solve !

Better yet, just dress it up and make it look ridiculous. Cost something like 20 credits from a thrift store - or free if a female player character or NPC has some spare clothing to lend.

~ Josh

I think that cost had more to do with game balance than what it would actually cost to make a recharger.
Also, couldn't a Terrain Hopper be used to charge things provided it had an adapter? That only costs half a million according to WB5.

That one in merc ops has a built in nuke power supply and is ultra portable suitcase sized . That IMO justifies the high price though I would think it would charge them a bit faster. Any good operator should be able to get a system jury-rigged to a vehicle's or PA's nuke plant that would be a fraction of the cost since the nuke power plant is already there and that is the prime expense.

In the reverse if you have one of these nuke plant powered e-clip charges from merc ops, a good operator could use that power plant to power a home or small vehicle or PA suit... sure It would take some doing but would be entirely possible with the right supplies and tools.
just my 2 cents.

I love the skills of weapons engineering, and Field Armor. What I do is salvage weapons and build my own charging stations. their cost is dang near free.

Rimmer wrote:

Mikal wrote:

Rimmer wrote:A skelebot may cost more, but is far better.

Recharges a long clip (30 shots) in 90 seconds, very portable, and can defend itself if need be.

Which doesn't help when you're making a shop in a kingdom. Can't really get customers in to go refill at the freaky death-bot.

Nothing a can of paint and a metal file couldn't solve !

Gee...I though people were into self service these days?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Rimmer wrote:

Mikal wrote:

Rimmer wrote:A skelebot may cost more, but is far better.

Recharges a long clip (30 shots) in 90 seconds, very portable, and can defend itself if need be.

Which doesn't help when you're making a shop in a kingdom. Can't really get customers in to go refill at the freaky death-bot.

Nothing a can of paint and a metal file couldn't solve !

Gee...I though people were into self service these days?

On the plus side, you would have very little drive offs !

Shorty Lickens wrote:I think that cost had more to do with game balance than what it would actually cost to make a recharger.
Also, couldn't a Terrain Hopper be used to charge things provided it had an adapter? That only costs half a million according to WB5.

The "provided it had an adapter" part is the possible sticking point.
I don't know of any official recharging adapters, and GMs range from "yes, you can build your own out of baling wire" to "No, you can never, ever build one, no matter what."

You could always buy one of the charging bases from the Black Market book and provide your own power source.

Icefalcon wrote:You could always buy one of the charging bases from the Black Market book and provide your own power source.

How much is the charging base without the power source?

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Icefalcon wrote:You could always buy one of the charging bases from the Black Market book and provide your own power source.

How much is the charging base without the power source?

--flatline

That I am not sure of because I have not had to figure it out yet. But considering how expensive the power sources are, the charging base itself can't be all that expensive.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Shorty Lickens wrote:I think that cost had more to do with game balance than what it would actually cost to make a recharger.
Also, couldn't a Terrain Hopper be used to charge things provided it had an adapter? That only costs half a million according to WB5.

The "provided it had an adapter" part is the possible sticking point.
I don't know of any official recharging adapters, and GMs range from "yes, you can build your own out of baling wire" to "No, you can never, ever build one, no matter what."

I am pretty open with my Operators, otherwise they're not a terribly useful class.
I also give wide leeway to doctors and scientists using the same logic.

Remember, theres a reason we're playing in a sci-fi setting.

Shorty Lickens wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Shorty Lickens wrote:I think that cost had more to do with game balance than what it would actually cost to make a recharger.
Also, couldn't a Terrain Hopper be used to charge things provided it had an adapter? That only costs half a million according to WB5.

The "provided it had an adapter" part is the possible sticking point.
I don't know of any official recharging adapters, and GMs range from "yes, you can build your own out of baling wire" to "No, you can never, ever build one, no matter what."

I am pretty open with my Operators, otherwise they're not a terribly useful class.
I also give wide leeway to doctors and scientists using the same logic.

Remember, theres a reason we're playing in a sci-fi setting.

Yes, there's hardly any reason to be playing Reed Richards if you can't build anything, and it's a staple of science-fiction for inventors to practically do all the inventive work and construction of a device sometimes with incredible alacrity. It gets quite unrealistic if you can't build something that's a basic thing any electrical engineer can do in RL in a fantasy game where things like man-portable railguns exist and fist-sized nuclear power cells.

Show me any case in real life where a mechanic has built an e-clip charger, you might have a good argument.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Show me any case in real life where a mechanic has built an e-clip charger, you might have a good argument.

We aren't talking a mechanic, we're talking an electrical engineer or someone trained in electronics. Electrical engineers and electronic technicians have the training and education for the creation of recharging units and generally have to actually build them as part of their classwork since power supplies and recharging units are such basic items.

If you want to try and claim someone who actually designs and builds the stuff for a living and is a basic aspect of their education can't do it in a game where the expectation is to be able to do stuff that's even unlikely in real life you're free to do so, but you aren't even remotely in possession of a basis for such a position. Might as well claim that a carpenter can't make a chair because he's expected to buy his chairs instead of make his own, it makes just as little sense (which is none).

Killer Cyborg wrote:Show me any case in real life where a mechanic has built an e-clip charger, you might have a good argument.

Charging circuits are among the simplest active control circuits. Google for "charging circuit" and look at some of the example images and you'll see what I mean (the examples I saw didn't even include any microprocessors). The real challenge when building an E-clip charger will be to build a circuit that can handle the implied power level. Using today's technology, it would be pretty tough to build a man-portable charging station that could charge 1000 car batteries in an hour without damaging itself, and that's assuming an external power supply. But we know that's not a problem in Rifts since if a rifle can safely discharge the equivalent of 1000 car batteries in 15 seconds without damaging itself, then we know that the materials are available to safely charge 1000 car batteries at 1/200th of that rate.

--flatline

Again, if you can come up with any real-world E-CLIP rechargers, just let me know.
Until then, you're just making stuff up, and pretending that it's fact.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Again, if you can come up with any real-world E-CLIP rechargers, just let me know.
Until then, you're just making stuff up, and pretending that it's fact.

Remember, we're the same group of people that has done math on a whole hell of a lot of the stuff from the game. And really, what is an e-clip but a battery? Sure, it's a specialized battery, but it's still a battery. And there are hundreds of different kinds of specialized batteries and chargers for them irl.

Goliath Strongarm wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Again, if you can come up with any real-world E-CLIP rechargers, just let me know.
Until then, you're just making stuff up, and pretending that it's fact.

Remember, we're the same group of people that has done math on a whole hell of a lot of the stuff from the game. And really, what is an e-clip but a battery? Sure, it's a specialized battery, but it's still a battery. And there are hundreds of different kinds of specialized batteries and chargers for them irl.

None of which hold the energy of 1,000 car batteries in an object the size of a pistol magazine.
We're dealing with fake technology that works differently than technology that we're familiar with.
This doesn't necessarily mean that it works different in every way, but it does mean that it possibly works differently in any given way.
Basically, the way that E-Clips work is "However the **** Palladium says they work."
And since Palladium hasn't SAID in this case, beyond a very limited point, that means that the could potentially work in any number of ways.

And I don't mind when people try to guess for the unknown (X) in this case.
People can say, "I think that X should be 7."
Or they can say, "I think that X should be <100."
Or they can say, "I think that X is probably >1."
Or whatever.

The problem comes in when people think that they actually KNOW what X is, when they say, "Well, X is obviously 5; anything else would be unrealistic."
Because what they're doing is BSing* an answer that they personally find acceptable... then dissing everybody else's equally BSed answers.

I'm fine with making stuff up; that's part of role-playing.
It's the other part, the pretending that it's fact, that I have a problem with.



As for doing a lot of math about stuff in the game... that's cool, but it ultimately doesn't mean much in most cases.
Math is a GIGO kind of machine, and most of what a person has to put into it, in regards to RPGs, is going to be G.





*"BS," in this case, obviously stands for "baloney spit," not anything profane.

Nightmask wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Show me any case in real life where a mechanic has built an e-clip charger, you might have a good argument.

We aren't talking a mechanic, we're talking an electrical engineer or someone trained in electronics.

Now that I'm not just posting from a phone, and have a full keyboard, I'll address this.

First, you're assuming that mechanics don't have any training in electronics, and a hell of a lot of them do.
Second, I'm just going off of the official description for Operators.
RUE 91
The Operator is a super-mechanic and repairman..

Not "Super-Engineer."
And note that the other key word there is "Repairman," NOT "Genius Inventer."
They fix stuff as a rule, which isn't the same as innovating new things.

I figured that you'd understand that while they're "mechanics," that doesn't mean that they have no understanding of electronics... especially since they have Electronics skills built into the class.

All of which was a beside-the-point tangent into semantics; the actual point being summed up in my previous post.

Electrical engineers and electronic technicians have the training and education for the creation of recharging units and generally have to actually build them as part of their classwork since power supplies and recharging units are such basic items.

For the creation and recharging of modern units, using modern power sources.
NOT for recharging fantasy devices of unknown design, from portable nuclear power supplies.

If you want to try and claim someone who actually designs and builds the stuff for a living and is a basic aspect of their education can't do it in a game where the expectation is to be able to do stuff that's even unlikely in real life you're free to do so, but you aren't even remotely in possession of a basis for such a position. Might as well claim that a carpenter can't make a chair because he's expected to buy his chairs instead of make his own, it makes just as little sense (which is none).

Fun fact: Not all carpenters CAN build chairs.
(Not unless by "chair," you mean "any piece of half-donkeyed object that could serve as a chair," in which case yeah, any carpenter CAN... but so can any small child, so your analogy falls apart in any case)

Frame Carpenters, for example, have no training in furniture-making.
Likewise, Cabinetmakers have no training in framing a house.
Different people within one general category of knowledge often have very different areas of expertise, and different skill sets.

Likewise, one Electrical Engineer doesn't necessarily have the same knowledge as every other Electrical Engineer.
An EE that specializes in Power Engineering might not be great at Telecommunications engineering, and vice-versa.
So just because some engineers somewhere in the world of Rifts design and build E-Clips does NOT mean that all engineers, everywhere on Rifts Earth, CAN.

Let me sum up:

One camp views E-clips as the ultra-tech evolution of existing technologies and wants to apply principles known to be true in the real world.

One camp views E-clips as something conceptually different from modern electro-chemical or electro-physical secondary cells and, as such, rejects the notion that E-clips can be treated as such.

Both camps view the other camp with a frustrated astonishment usually reserved for otherwise intelligent people who say amazingly misguided things at parties.

Since the positions are mutually exclusive, there's no room for compromise and, as such, these arguments go exactly nowhere. Let us instead save our time and energy for more fruitful discussions. This one is a dead end.

--flatline

flatline wrote:Let me sum up:

One camp views E-clips as the ultra-tech evolution of existing technologies and wants to apply principles known to be true in the real world.

One camp views E-clips as something conceptually different from modern electro-chemical or electro-physical secondary cells and, as such, rejects the notion that E-clips can be treated as such.

Both camps view the other camp with a frustrated astonishment usually reserved for otherwise intelligent people who say amazingly misguided things at parties.

Since the positions are mutually exclusive, there's no room for compromise and, as such, these arguments go exactly nowhere. Let us instead save our time and energy for more fruitful discussions. This one is a dead end.

--flatline

In other words,

Killer Cyborg wrote:I don't know of any official recharging adapters, and GMs range from "yes, you can build your own out of baling wire" to "No, you can never, ever build one, no matter what."

And, remember, my position isn't that E-Clips necessarily work that much different from modern batteries... only that they may.
And that they apparently work differently enough to justify the in-game costs associated with recharging, as well as the in-game lack of easy access to recharging devices.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Show me any case in real life where a mechanic has built an e-clip charger, you might have a good argument.

methinks you dont know the difference between verisimilitude and reality.

Shorty Lickens wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Show me any case in real life where a mechanic has built an e-clip charger, you might have a good argument.

methinks you dont know the difference between verisimilitude and reality.

Methinks you didn't follow the conversation.

Rappanui wrote:KillerCyborg: For your versimilitude, the Laser bow can Fire a MD Charge just from a DRAW STRING PLUNGER..
in Rifts, Rifts does not follow normal physics. ...

That's not versimilitude.

Panomas wrote:Had to look it up myself:

ver·i·si·mil·i·tude

noun
1.
the appearance or semblance of truth; likelihood; probability: The play lacked verisimilitude.
2.
something, as an assertion, having merely the appearance of truth.

I believe the more recently coined "Truthiness" is a synonym that is more easily grokked by younger readers.

--flatline

Rappanui wrote:the truth is, RIFTS DOES NOT FOLLOW PHYSICS and if you accept that, happy gaming.
If Not, I have a copy of Gurps 3rd Edition Vehicles to show you.

The fact that as a sci-fi/fantasy setting that not ALL physics are applicable does not mean the opposite that NONE are applicable. Gravity still works there as it does here as does electricity, you don't have the sun as a magical ball suspended from a ceiling in a crystal sphere with the flat earth below.

People wouldn't use e-clip powered devices if they were so insanely expensive to recharge, you could never survive because you could never maintain them. They certainly wouldn't be so ubiquitous that just about everyone seems to have them. For them to be so common they must be fairly easy to recharge (and we're told it's not that hard to jury-rig a means of recharging them).

Nightmask wrote:People wouldn't use e-clip powered devices if they were so insanely expensive to recharge, you could never survive because you could never maintain them. They certainly wouldn't be so ubiquitous that just about everyone seems to have them. For them to be so common they must be fairly easy to recharge (and we're told it's not that hard to jury-rig a means of recharging them).

Agreed 110%. Flip side is, if they are so cheap and common, and easy to use and jury-rig, etc etc etc...are most portable devices (besides weapons) powered by e-clips? Seriously, are E-Clips the AA batteries (or D cells if you prefer) of RIFTs?

If not, why not? If they can power that many shots from an energy based weapon, they obviously hold a lot of juice. More than enough for say, a laptop (or equivalent). Why wouldn't society shift to use as much of a standardized power source as possible? I mean, even today, we've done it with a lot of our smaller devices where the charger is interchangable, and in some cases, the power supply. And on some stuff (like items that use AAA, AA, C, D, 9V, etc) batteries could be considered "e-clips".

So, are E-Clips already in use on stuff other than weapons? Why not? If not, could items be adapted for their use? Good idea? Bad Idea? Expand!

Goliath Strongarm wrote:

Nightmask wrote:People wouldn't use e-clip powered devices if they were so insanely expensive to recharge, you could never survive because you could never maintain them. They certainly wouldn't be so ubiquitous that just about everyone seems to have them. For them to be so common they must be fairly easy to recharge (and we're told it's not that hard to jury-rig a means of recharging them).

Agreed 110%. Flip side is, if they are so cheap and common, and easy to use and jury-rig, etc etc etc...are most portable devices (besides weapons) powered by e-clips? Seriously, are E-Clips the AA batteries (or D cells if you prefer) of RIFTs?

If not, why not? If they can power that many shots from an energy based weapon, they obviously hold a lot of juice. More than enough for say, a laptop (or equivalent). Why wouldn't society shift to use as much of a standardized power source as possible? I mean, even today, we've done it with a lot of our smaller devices where the charger is interchangable, and in some cases, the power supply. And on some stuff (like items that use AAA, AA, C, D, 9V, etc) batteries could be considered "e-clips".

So, are E-Clips already in use on stuff other than weapons? Why not? If not, could items be adapted for their use? Good idea? Bad Idea? Expand!

In my version of the setting, E-clips (or smaller/larger cells using the same technology) are used to power just about everything that is too small to have its own reactor.

Edit: Well, not everything. I'm talking about things that consume electric power directly. Lots of things still use liquid fuel where appropriate. End edit.

I also take it a step further by setting the minimum size for a nuclear reactor to be 1 cubic meter which means that power armor and small vehicles can't be nuclear powered. Most PA and vehicles run on cell-packs which give them a day or two of operation between charges but is drastically reduced by flight and firing energy weapons. Obviously, this changes the setting quite a bit.

--flatline

Rappanui wrote:

Rappanui wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Rappanui wrote:the truth is, RIFTS DOES NOT FOLLOW PHYSICS and if you accept that, happy gaming.
If Not, I have a copy of Gurps 3rd Edition Vehicles to show you.

The fact that as a sci-fi/fantasy setting that not ALL physics are applicable does not mean the opposite that NONE are applicable. Gravity still works there as it does here as does electricity, you don't have the sun as a magical ball suspended from a ceiling in a crystal sphere with the flat earth below.

People wouldn't use e-clip powered devices if they were so insanely expensive to recharge, you could never survive because you could never maintain them. They certainly wouldn't be so ubiquitous that just about everyone seems to have them. For them to be so common they must be fairly easy to recharge (and we're told it's not that hard to jury-rig a means of recharging them).

what i implied is that Eclips are not insanely expensive to recharge, except after a few Editions later. The RMB/GM screen edition era Eclip recharge was .. around 800-2000 credits. the later editions kept ramping this price up as they wanted to make it seem that rifts followed any sort of sense and just went with the " make it all more expensive!"
I think one book mentions 8K Credits per recharge. .. At that price you can buy a new eclip, or Keep Naruni ammo in stockpiles cause that is A BARGAIN.

forget versimilitude. if your worried about recharging, your GM is out to get you, get the most expensive toys you can get cause your character isn't bound for living very long.

I have noticed GM around here at least that seem to have a 'everything has to be scarce and expensive' attitude and think keeping the PC all scrambling around and barely eking out an existence as somehow meant to be enjoyable instead of simply making for a miserable existence where the players are spending too much time worrying about weapons that they should be able to easily reload (i.e. recharge) between battles and too often left without the resources to actually accomplish anything because they have to keep going to the GM's 'approved E-clip recharging center' in order to recharge so they can never adventure outside that area because they have to keep going back instead of forging ahead.

Which of course quickly leads to them complaining about their players wanting run characters that have unlimited attacks in some fashion, either because they're naturally MDC with natural Mega-damage attacks or various power armor and robot vehicles with built-in weapon systems that have unlimited payloads, all while ignoring that they're the ones responsible for the players making those choices. They've made the other alternatives highly unappealing then complain because the players understandably don't want those alternatives because the GM made them not worth it.

Nightmask wrote:People wouldn't use e-clip powered devices if they were so insanely expensive to recharge, you could never survive because you could never maintain them.

Odd.
People have been surviving and charging E-Clips in my games, using book prices as the norm, for over 20 years.
So I think that "never" is kind of a stretch.

They certainly wouldn't be so ubiquitous that just about everyone seems to have them.

That's part of the problem of Rifts, where Mega-Damage is supposed to be fairly rare... but that's the only part of the world that most authors want to write about.
But then, you DO have it in black-and-white... it's actually supposed to be rare- that's the intent of the game setting.

For them to be so common they must be fairly easy to recharge (and we're told it's not that hard to jury-rig a means of recharging them).

We're never told how hard it is.

Rappanui wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Rappanui wrote:the truth is, RIFTS DOES NOT FOLLOW PHYSICS and if you accept that, happy gaming.
If Not, I have a copy of Gurps 3rd Edition Vehicles to show you.

The fact that as a sci-fi/fantasy setting that not ALL physics are applicable does not mean the opposite that NONE are applicable. Gravity still works there as it does here as does electricity, you don't have the sun as a magical ball suspended from a ceiling in a crystal sphere with the flat earth below.

People wouldn't use e-clip powered devices if they were so insanely expensive to recharge, you could never survive because you could never maintain them. They certainly wouldn't be so ubiquitous that just about everyone seems to have them. For them to be so common they must be fairly easy to recharge (and we're told it's not that hard to jury-rig a means of recharging them).

what i implied is that Eclips are not insanely expensive to recharge, except after a few Editions later. The RMB/GM screen edition era Eclip recharge was .. around 800-2000 credits. the later editions kept ramping this price up as they wanted to make it seem that rifts followed any sort of sense and just went with the " make it all more expensive!"
I think one book mentions 8K Credits per recharge. .. At that price you can buy a new eclip, or Keep Naruni ammo in stockpiles cause that is A BARGAIN.

When't they ramp the price up past CR 2000....?

Nightmask wrote:I have noticed GM around here at least that seem to have a 'everything has to be scarce and expensive' attitude and think keeping the PC all scrambling around and barely eking out an existence as somehow meant to be enjoyable instead of simply making for a miserable existence where the players are spending too much time worrying about weapons that they should be able to easily reload (i.e. recharge) between battles and too often left without the resources to actually accomplish anything because they have to keep going to the GM's 'approved E-clip recharging center' in order to recharge so they can never adventure outside that area because they have to keep going back instead of forging ahead.

Hold on a second.
What precisely do you think is enjoyable about role-playing?

Which of course quickly leads to them complaining about their players wanting run characters that have unlimited attacks in some fashion, either because they're naturally MDC with natural Mega-damage attacks or various power armor and robot vehicles with built-in weapon systems that have unlimited payloads, all while ignoring that they're the ones responsible for the players making those choices. They've made the other alternatives highly unappealing then complain because the players understandably don't want those alternatives because the GM made them not worth it.

You seem to be saying that GMs should give players unlimited ammo because otherwise the players will seek out weapons (etc.) with unlimited ammo.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Nightmask wrote:I have noticed GM around here at least that seem to have a 'everything has to be scarce and expensive' attitude and think keeping the PC all scrambling around and barely eking out an existence as somehow meant to be enjoyable instead of simply making for a miserable existence where the players are spending too much time worrying about weapons that they should be able to easily reload (i.e. recharge) between battles and too often left without the resources to actually accomplish anything because they have to keep going to the GM's 'approved E-clip recharging center' in order to recharge so they can never adventure outside that area because they have to keep going back instead of forging ahead.

Hold on a second.
What precisely do you think is enjoyable about role-playing?

Which of course quickly leads to them complaining about their players wanting run characters that have unlimited attacks in some fashion, either because they're naturally MDC with natural Mega-damage attacks or various power armor and robot vehicles with built-in weapon systems that have unlimited payloads, all while ignoring that they're the ones responsible for the players making those choices. They've made the other alternatives highly unappealing then complain because the players understandably don't want those alternatives because the GM made them not worth it.

You seem to be saying that GMs should give players unlimited ammo because otherwise the players will seek out weapons (etc.) with unlimited ammo.

I don't think he's saying give them unlimited ammo. To me it seems like he's saying if some GM's weren't such Scrooges when it came to ammo that fewer players would be attracted to characters with naturally unlimited ammo.

Galroth wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Nightmask wrote:I have noticed GM around here at least that seem to have a 'everything has to be scarce and expensive' attitude and think keeping the PC all scrambling around and barely eking out an existence as somehow meant to be enjoyable instead of simply making for a miserable existence where the players are spending too much time worrying about weapons that they should be able to easily reload (i.e. recharge) between battles and too often left without the resources to actually accomplish anything because they have to keep going to the GM's 'approved E-clip recharging center' in order to recharge so they can never adventure outside that area because they have to keep going back instead of forging ahead.

Hold on a second.
What precisely do you think is enjoyable about role-playing?

Which of course quickly leads to them complaining about their players wanting run characters that have unlimited attacks in some fashion, either because they're naturally MDC with natural Mega-damage attacks or various power armor and robot vehicles with built-in weapon systems that have unlimited payloads, all while ignoring that they're the ones responsible for the players making those choices. They've made the other alternatives highly unappealing then complain because the players understandably don't want those alternatives because the GM made them not worth it.

You seem to be saying that GMs should give players unlimited ammo because otherwise the players will seek out weapons (etc.) with unlimited ammo.

I don't think he's saying give them unlimited ammo. To me it seems like he's saying if some GM's weren't such Scrooges when it came to ammo that fewer players would be attracted to characters with naturally unlimited ammo.

But he seems to define "Scrooge" as "Doesn't Let Players Recharge E-Clips For Free."

Although it seems like how much a reasonable rate for e-clip recharging would depend on how many credits your GM allows you to accumulate. I have one GM who's really stingy with exp but rains credits on your character, but another is free with the exp and stingy with credits. Maybe his experience leans towards the second GM and not the first. /shrug.

Galroth wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Nightmask wrote:I have noticed GM around here at least that seem to have a 'everything has to be scarce and expensive' attitude and think keeping the PC all scrambling around and barely eking out an existence as somehow meant to be enjoyable instead of simply making for a miserable existence where the players are spending too much time worrying about weapons that they should be able to easily reload (i.e. recharge) between battles and too often left without the resources to actually accomplish anything because they have to keep going to the GM's 'approved E-clip recharging center' in order to recharge so they can never adventure outside that area because they have to keep going back instead of forging ahead.

Hold on a second.
What precisely do you think is enjoyable about role-playing?

Which of course quickly leads to them complaining about their players wanting run characters that have unlimited attacks in some fashion, either because they're naturally MDC with natural Mega-damage attacks or various power armor and robot vehicles with built-in weapon systems that have unlimited payloads, all while ignoring that they're the ones responsible for the players making those choices. They've made the other alternatives highly unappealing then complain because the players understandably don't want those alternatives because the GM made them not worth it.

You seem to be saying that GMs should give players unlimited ammo because otherwise the players will seek out weapons (etc.) with unlimited ammo.

I don't think he's saying give them unlimited ammo. To me it seems like he's saying if some GM's weren't such Scrooges when it came to ammo that fewer players would be attracted to characters with naturally unlimited ammo.

That's pretty much it, the harder the GM makes it to play a particular type of character the more they're going to go for something that lets them actually get somewhere. If you can't recharge your e-clips without prohibitive expense you're not going to want to play a character that's dependent on e-clips for their gear. Basic common sense, yet the GM will invariably fault the player for selecting something that's not dependent on E-clips rather than think he could be at fault for making them such a problem to use the players don't want to deal with the hassle.

Galroth wrote:Although it seems like how much a reasonable rate for e-clip recharging would depend on how many credits your GM allows you to accumulate. I have one GM who's really stingy with exp but rains credits on your character, but another is free with the exp and stingy with credits. Maybe his experience leans towards the second GM and not the first. /shrug.

Yes, I've far more experience with the stingy GM and having to select characters I can enjoy within the bounds of his stinginess (if possible ).

Nightmask wrote:

Galroth wrote:Although it seems like how much a reasonable rate for e-clip recharging would depend on how many credits your GM allows you to accumulate. I have one GM who's really stingy with exp but rains credits on your character, but another is free with the exp and stingy with credits. Maybe his experience leans towards the second GM and not the first. /shrug.

Yes, I've far more experience with the stingy GM and having to select characters I can enjoy within the bounds of his stinginess (if possible ).

what constitutes stingy?
making you actually manage resources?
or the fact that he may need a money sink to keep your chars within the boundaries of power level he is most comfortable GM?
or could it be that as a player the group is a tad trigger happy and goes through e-clip charges like water?

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Galroth wrote:Although it seems like how much a reasonable rate for e-clip recharging would depend on how many credits your GM allows you to accumulate. I have one GM who's really stingy with exp but rains credits on your character, but another is free with the exp and stingy with credits. Maybe his experience leans towards the second GM and not the first. /shrug.

Yes, I've far more experience with the stingy GM and having to select characters I can enjoy within the bounds of his stinginess (if possible ).

what constitutes stingy?
making you actually manage resources?
or the fact that he may need a money sink to keep your chars within the boundaries of power level he is most comfortable GM?
or could it be that as a player the group is a tad trigger happy and goes through e-clip charges like water?

I have to admit that I have seen the last one (concerning ammo usage) in almost every modern game I have played or run. Even in Cyberpunk my friend (the GM) had to teach all the players about ammo conservation. I hate to say it but if the players are burning through more than 2-3 e-clips in a battle (less for larger capacities), then they are way too trigger happy.

Icefalcon wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Galroth wrote:Although it seems like how much a reasonable rate for e-clip recharging would depend on how many credits your GM allows you to accumulate. I have one GM who's really stingy with exp but rains credits on your character, but another is free with the exp and stingy with credits. Maybe his experience leans towards the second GM and not the first. /shrug.

Yes, I've far more experience with the stingy GM and having to select characters I can enjoy within the bounds of his stinginess (if possible ).

what constitutes stingy?
making you actually manage resources?
or the fact that he may need a money sink to keep your chars within the boundaries of power level he is most comfortable GM?
or could it be that as a player the group is a tad trigger happy and goes through e-clip charges like water?

I have to admit that I have seen the last one (concerning ammo usage) in almost every modern game I have played or run. Even in Cyberpunk my friend (the GM) had to teach all the players about ammo conservation. I hate to say it but if the players are burning through more than 2-3 e-clips in a battle (less for larger capacities), then they are way too trigger happy.

Or just maybe the GM is sending so much to fight that they have to burn through a lot of E-clips like that just to survive. Seems like some who spend too much or all of their time as just the GM stop recognizing the fact that sometimes they, not the players, are the problem. I have no problem saying it: the GM is not always right, sometimes he's dead wrong and just trying to pass the buck rather than admit it. If everyone had to use up on average multiple e-clips in a battle (or worse every battle) then one cannot say the players are just trigger-happy and wasting shots, there's a clear pattern of the GM sending threats that routinely require such usage.

Nightmask wrote:

Icefalcon wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Galroth wrote:Although it seems like how much a reasonable rate for e-clip recharging would depend on how many credits your GM allows you to accumulate. I have one GM who's really stingy with exp but rains credits on your character, but another is free with the exp and stingy with credits. Maybe his experience leans towards the second GM and not the first. /shrug.

Yes, I've far more experience with the stingy GM and having to select characters I can enjoy within the bounds of his stinginess (if possible ).

what constitutes stingy?
making you actually manage resources?
or the fact that he may need a money sink to keep your chars within the boundaries of power level he is most comfortable GM?
or could it be that as a player the group is a tad trigger happy and goes through e-clip charges like water?

I have to admit that I have seen the last one (concerning ammo usage) in almost every modern game I have played or run. Even in Cyberpunk my friend (the GM) had to teach all the players about ammo conservation. I hate to say it but if the players are burning through more than 2-3 e-clips in a battle (less for larger capacities), then they are way too trigger happy.

Or just maybe the GM is sending so much to fight that they have to burn through a lot of E-clips like that just to survive. Seems like some who spend too much or all of their time as just the GM stop recognizing the fact that sometimes they, not the players, are the problem. I have no problem saying it: the GM is not always right, sometimes he's dead wrong and just trying to pass the buck rather than admit it. If everyone had to use up on average multiple e-clips in a battle (or worse every battle) then one cannot say the players are just trigger-happy and wasting shots, there's a clear pattern of the GM sending threats that routinely require such usage.

combat is the only way to resolve an encounter? Do you even try any other method? or is it shoot first and loot and question the bodies afterwards?
And speaking to the looting of defeated foes...
If you are in that many encounters that you need reloads so often you should be relatively flush with cash from all the salvage. Still dont see where an excessively cheap method of re-charging is needed.
2Gs a clip is reasonable IMO.

Rappanui wrote:I've seen plenty of what nightmask is saying, especially back when players could fire full auto bursts with energy weapons
combat were short but enemies were plenty
you'd burn through 3-4 clips and have lots of time to loot it off other bodies afterwards.
But Some people still think Rifts is about in a 10x10 stretch of deserted nomad land, and there's a biker gang torching an orc.. what do you do!

Do nothing and let them get the orc. Or distract them and whisk the orc away to safety. Or mind control their leader to do your bidding. Or convince them to leave th orc alone via intimidation or some other form of diplomacy (yes, intimidation is a form of diplomacy).

The options available to you depend entirely on your abilities, your imagination, and the GM's discretion.

I have played with GMs who would have allowed no solution other than engaging the biker gang in combat. As a player, you can only hope they have a good reason for limiting your options like that...

--flatline

I agree that there are more options than shooting your guns at everything. You could try the diplomatic or intimidating approach. You could do it nonlethal by using that nice nifty hand-to-hand skill everyone is so eager to get upgraded but never use.

Icefalcon wrote:I agree that there are more options than shooting your guns at everything. You could try the diplomatic or intimidating approach. You could do it nonlethal by using that nice nifty hand-to-hand skill everyone is so eager to get upgraded but never use.

I'm referring to the GM that you aren't given the option of anything but 'shoot it until it runs or is dead', the sort that too many times that when you tried the non-combat route all you got was blasted for your trouble. For myself I prefer the non-combat route but if your GM doesn't give you the choice what can you do? You can't make him provide successful negotiation opportunities to avoid combat, if your opponents are always or almost always 'kill them when you can' you don't have much choice besides combat or sitting home watching TV on game nights because you've given up on the only game around because it's basically a video game of 'kill the bad guys, loot the bodies'.

Nightmask wrote:

Icefalcon wrote:I agree that there are more options than shooting your guns at everything. You could try the diplomatic or intimidating approach. You could do it nonlethal by using that nice nifty hand-to-hand skill everyone is so eager to get upgraded but never use.

I'm referring to the GM that you aren't given the option of anything but 'shoot it until it runs or is dead', the sort that too many times that when you tried the non-combat route all you got was blasted for your trouble. For myself I prefer the non-combat route but if your GM doesn't give you the choice what can you do? You can't make him provide successful negotiation opportunities to avoid combat, if your opponents are always or almost always 'kill them when you can' you don't have much choice besides combat or sitting home watching TV on game nights because you've given up on the only game around because it's basically a video game of 'kill the bad guys, loot the bodies'.

If this is the problem then you have 4 choices...
1: Grit your teeth and suffer through it (even though you do not find the game enjoyable)
2: Politely tell the GM that you are finding Hack and Slash games dis-satisfying. (and hope he corrects the issue)
3:Quit the game since "no game is more enjoyable than a bad/boring one"
or
4:Take over as GM and run the game you like.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Icefalcon wrote:I agree that there are more options than shooting your guns at everything. You could try the diplomatic or intimidating approach. You could do it nonlethal by using that nice nifty hand-to-hand skill everyone is so eager to get upgraded but never use.

I'm referring to the GM that you aren't given the option of anything but 'shoot it until it runs or is dead', the sort that too many times that when you tried the non-combat route all you got was blasted for your trouble. For myself I prefer the non-combat route but if your GM doesn't give you the choice what can you do? You can't make him provide successful negotiation opportunities to avoid combat, if your opponents are always or almost always 'kill them when you can' you don't have much choice besides combat or sitting home watching TV on game nights because you've given up on the only game around because it's basically a video game of 'kill the bad guys, loot the bodies'.

If this is the problem then you have 4 choices...
1: Grit your teeth and suffer through it (even though you do not find the game enjoyable)

I've done this. Once you reset your expectations, you can still make the best of it. You might need to bring in a character more appropriate to the hack-n-slash campaign. If the other players are enjoying it, then it behooves you to not ruin it for everyone else.

2: Politely tell the GM that you are finding Hack and Slash games dis-satisfying. (and hope he corrects the issue)

Be extremely tactful and non-confrontational about it. New GMs often don't know how to do anything other than string combative encounters together and call it a campaign. There's no need to rub his nose in it. Nudge the GM along during play by showing interest in things that aren't combat related and hope that he starts to realize that there's more to an RPG than killing things for loot and experience.

3:Quit the game since "no game is more enjoyable than a bad/boring one"

Hmm...this one I'm not so comfortable with. I game as an excuse to be with my friends, so if I choose "no game", then I'd be effectively saying "I don't like you guys enough to put up with this game". Whether or not this is an option depends entirely on your group dynamic, I suppose.

4:Take over as GM and run the game you like.

I'd prefer to play in a lousy game than GM a mediocre game (I have no illusions about my GMing ability). But if you can do a better job as a GM than the current GM and have a way to take over GMing responsibilities without alienating him or the rest of the group, then this might be the best option.

All in all, I agree with Mr Magecraft's assessment (with the caveat that #3 is unacceptable to me for reasons that may not apply to the reader).

--flatline