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Okay, I have a PC that is playing a full-conversion cyborg who has seen ancient, pre-Rifts videos of Wrestlemania, and wants to focus his character's hand to hand in that style.
My question is how much damage would the maneuvers do for a one ton cyborg (Triax Red Type Manhunter, mostly stock, but with the Robotic PS addition)?
I have the in-ring method of working combat pretty much down. It's extremely free-form, but includes a lot of combination moves, as well as all of the damage being considered pulled by default (in the ring, it's performance, not battle). But what would this cyborg do for damage in an Atomic Elbow Drop, for example?

Okay, I can see that. But what about the other maneuvers? Wrestling fans, please share your ideas!

If a cyborg is fighting and uses an atomic elbow and there is no mushroom cloud, you're doing it wrong.

Check out demon wrestling from China 2. It may be a good place to start. I generally use a strainght S.D.C. to M.D.C. conversion but I modify things on the fly.

The fact is, most 'pro wrestling' maneuvers if done for real would cripple most people normally. If you have a full conversion borg doing them to someone...it's probably going to be lethal.

Generally, 1D4 to 1D6 MDC.

That's a very good place to start, thank you. I was also hoping that other people here would have similar characters. After all, what's the damage from a Piledriver? Or a DDT? OR even a Leg Drop? Or a Flying Knee Strike when the borg has a jet pack?

As for the inside-the-ring deal, it's pretty much MD creature vs MD creature, with pulled punches and such. It's outside the ring that I'm asking about.

OH, I totally fogot. Rifter 28 has an article about the CS Janissary project and it has rules for MD hold, locks and stings like that.

The Galactus Kid wrote:OH, I totally fogot. Rifter 28 has an article about the CS Janissary project and it has rules for MD hold, locks and stings like that.

Oh, I forgot about that too! Thanks for reminding me about that; I'll get on that right away!

Try this:

http://kuseru.com/PMAN/StyleP.htm

It is what I use for wacko styles that are not found in Ninjas & Superspies or in the Rifters.

As for the conversion to MDC...use the PS rules for the base punch/kick damage and go from there.

-STS

If it's truly 'performance', you wouldn't add anything for weight; they (pro-wrestlers) don't apply weight to their hits. When you see a big guy like Yokozuna, it's all acting on part of his counter[part].

As for damage, I'd peg him at doing standard wrestling damage as mega-damage due to his robotic strength.

Actually, the main kinds of damage I need is for a one ton Red Type pulling an Atomic Elbow Drop onto the back of a dragon from the top of a Behemoth Explorer Vehicle. It's the damage in actual combat that I'm looking for, because that's what my player wants to do.
Proper MD from height rules, rules for knees and elbows for Robotic strength, etc. The basic wrestling maneuvers are decent, but they really don't take into account the massive weight and strength.

One thing you should consider though, is that his chassis would need to be modified a bit to handle those types of maneuvers, otherwise it might be a case of doing more damage to himself than his opponents over time. Wrestlers wear pads for a reason, and they do a lot of training to strengthen the joints. Borgs don't do that, and like most tech, the joints are the weakest parts. I'd say 100,000 credits for a full body wrestling mod to install proper shock absorbers, and what have you, would be appropriate.

I would look at adding a Horror Factor (maybe 8 or 10) if the cyborg also stomps or claps when the hits take place.

As I learned in the ring, if the audience can't hear it, it doesn't really hurt.
However, a foot stomp when you miss with a punch (even noticeably) most fans will be cringing in the seats.

All very, very good suggestions, thank you. I believe the foundations have been laid for doing this properly. I plan to work on this until I've got something roughly workable, and then I'll post it, in case you guys want to have a hatchling dragon DDT one of your PCs.

Prince Artemis wrote:One thing you should consider though, is that his chassis would need to be modified a bit to handle those types of maneuvers, otherwise it might be a case of doing more damage to himself than his opponents over time. Wrestlers wear pads for a reason, and they do a lot of training to strengthen the joints. Borgs don't do that, and like most tech, the joints are the weakest parts. I'd say 100,000 credits for a full body wrestling mod to install proper shock absorbers, and what have you, would be appropriate.

The thing is, those weakest joints are already MDC material. I don't think a few elbow drops are gonna damage them even if they do them for a week straight.

Umm, unless any of those wrestlers are dealing MD damage...no, no they would not. that's the very definition of MDC, no amount of accumulated sdc damage has any effect whatsoever.

frogboy wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Umm, unless any of those wrestlers are dealing MD damage...no, no they would not. that's the very definition of MDC, no amount of accumulated sdc damage has any effect whatsoever.

You mean for the skill checks ? Pro wrestlers spend hours choreographing there matches. they even use the little foot prints like they have in dance classes. This is why real injuries are so rare, as well as why real injuries are so bad and some times deadly. Big guys throwing and jumping on either big guys is dangerous. So in actual combat no skill checks. in a sanctioned match for credits, the participants should have to both make skill checks.

And unless a poorly performed move causes their arm to explode in a gout of red mist, it's not doing MD.

I see some people have seen the trailer's for Hugh Jackman's newest movie, Real Steel huh? lol

Really? I've been seeing them for a few months. Heck the toys have been in target for 2 or 3 weeks. lol

You realize that in actual authentic pro-wrestling, your megadamage 'borg is going to have to be rolling to pull his punches, right?
And on Rifts Earth you probably have a Operator running special effects under the ring, and an illusionist standing by for real-time 'retouch'.
Have at least two high P.B. ladies(or guys for a mixed gender crowd) wandering around the ring throwing chairs at each other(and the occasional over-enthusiastic fan out into the crowd).
And an obnoxious manager with political ambitions inciting the crowd.

And 'Real Steel' is the 'Rock-em Sock-em Robots' movie realized; another old game made into a movie however possible. I expect at some point we'll see 'Monopoly'(unless you consider 'Wall Street' to be that movie), 'Chutes and Ladders', and 'Yatzee!' eventually made into movies.

taalismn wrote:You realize that in actual authentic pro-wrestling, your megadamage 'borg is going to have to be rolling to pull his punches, right?
And on Rifts Earth you probably have a Operator running special effects under the ring, and an illusionist standing by for real-time 'retouch'.
Have at least two high P.B. ladies(or guys for a mixed gender crowd) wandering around the ring throwing chairs at each other(and the occasional over-enthusiastic fan out into the crowd).
And an obnoxious manager with political ambitions inciting the crowd.

And 'Real Steel' is the 'Rock-em Sock-em Robots' movie realized; another old game made into a movie however possible. I expect at some point we'll see 'Monopoly'(unless you consider 'Wall Street' to be that movie), 'Chutes and Ladders', and 'Yatzee!' eventually made into movies.

BATTLESHIP!?! This is a movie!?!?! Yes

-STS

The Underground wrote:

taalismn wrote:And 'Real Steel' is the 'Rock-em Sock-em Robots' movie realized; another old game made into a movie however possible. I expect at some point we'll see 'Monopoly'(unless you consider 'Wall Street' to be that movie), 'Chutes and Ladders', and 'Yatzee!' eventually made into movies.

too late.

Books made into movies is an entirely different sort of barrel-scraping.
Veering temporarily off topic, Hollywood(or Inde-wood) does this when a) remaking movies for the umpteenth time before the older versions have vanished from moviegoers' memories(Conan the Barbarian...I mean, I know Arnold's fallen from grace, but really, did we need a 3D Conan movie THAT bad?), b) 'americanizing' foreign films(because presumably American audiences can't be bothered to read subtitles), c) cashing on nostalgia, with reference to old games, entertainments, and TV shows, often warping the original beyond recognition(occasionally this works; Pirates of the Carribean), and d) appealing to specific built-in audiences looking for movies appealing to their specific sensibilities(typically by telegraphing the entire point way before anybody even sets foot in the theater).

Veering slightly more towards original topic:
-This means that post-Rifts entertainment will STILL be recycling old themes from surviving movies, often with varying quality, results, and accuracy. Rifts professional wrestling, for instance, might also be the place to see such wrestling-related entertainments as the post-Rifts reconstruction and restoration of that classic pre-Rifts pro-wrestling video feature Jesse Ventura-Pet Wrestler.

taalismn wrote:You realize that in actual authentic pro-wrestling, your megadamage 'borg is going to have to be rolling to pull his punches, right?
And on Rifts Earth you probably have a Operator running special effects under the ring, and an illusionist standing by for real-time 'retouch'.
Have at least two high P.B. ladies(or guys for a mixed gender crowd) wandering around the ring throwing chairs at each other(and the occasional over-enthusiastic fan out into the crowd).
And an obnoxious manager with political ambitions inciting the crowd.

And 'Real Steel' is the 'Rock-em Sock-em Robots' movie realized; another old game made into a movie however possible. I expect at some point we'll see 'Monopoly'(unless you consider 'Wall Street' to be that movie), 'Chutes and Ladders', and 'Yatzee!' eventually made into movies.

Oh yeah. In the ring, all damage is assumed to be considered 'Pulled Punch' damage, unless something bad happens with the rolls.
For special effects, we have a Battle Magus and a Ley Line Walker.
And right now, only one high P.B. female (Maxi-Man) as the ring Number Girl for rounds (we kind of mixed boxing-style matches in for presentation). Nobody planted in the audience stirring up the crowd, but we do have a pair of robotic announcers (Triax robots, expressly programmed for announcing. And yes, one of them wears a cowboy hat).
No manager yet, but the 'sport' is just starting (it began about a week prior, and the first videos are being released by K'Zaa out of Stormspire), and it's really picking up speed among sporting combat-types.

My point about the damage to the joint actually has nothing to do with the damage being done by the joint. The reason joints are weak is because they're the points where in humans for example, bone meets bone, and that would be the same for a borg. A car hits a bad enough pot hole, they may do no damage to the road, but the shock might still snap like a twig because it's the metal in the car hitting the metal in the car.

Case in point: http://youtu.be/oKEENCpRdIY (warning, don't watch if you have a squimish stomach). Psycho sid jumps from the top rope and snaps his ankle (the the point that it's hanging off). Bone is strong, stronger than the wood that makes up the ring, but there's no hole in the ring after that break.

yes, but it still won't do any damage unless it's enough to deal MDC. hitting someone with a weapon that is super-tough in rifts just means the weapon is less likely to break, not that it suddenly deals mega-damage.

All the damage is indeed MDC, but pulled to minimize real damage. After all, it's a show, not a battle to the death.
And I'm working it up so that other combat types will be getting in on it. It's going to be the new Juicer sport. Except that Juicers tend to get bloodier about it.
But think about the promotional potential in this. Holodiscs being passed around, word of mouth, the new 'legends' of the sport... After Juicer Uprising, there really isn't much mention about the Juicer Football professional circuit. And K'Zaa, a consummate businessman, would be a fool not to get in on this kind of thing. The profit from the video sales alone would be staggering. Not much in the business of pay per view options, but once word gets around (and adventurers in vehicles travelling the wilds are better gossip-mills than old ladies along the back fence), crowds will start forming, admissions will start getting charged, and holodisc sales will go through the roof.
But in real combat, the damage would escalate. After all, almost all pro-wrestling moves, if they're not properly rehearsed, would do nasty, nasty damage to people.

wyrmraker wrote:But in real combat, the damage would escalate. After all, almost all pro-wrestling moves, if they're not properly rehearsed, would do nasty, nasty damage to people.

in many cases they would probably also do nasty, nasty damage to the guy doing the move.

frogboy wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:All the damage is indeed MDC, but pulled to minimize real damage. After all, it's a show, not a battle to the death.
And I'm working it up so that other combat types will be getting in on it. It's going to be the new Juicer sport. Except that Juicers tend to get bloodier about it.
But think about the promotional potential in this. Holodiscs being passed around, word of mouth, the new 'legends' of the sport... After Juicer Uprising, there really isn't much mention about the Juicer Football professional circuit. And K'Zaa, a consummate businessman, would be a fool not to get in on this kind of thing. The profit from the video sales alone would be staggering. Not much in the business of pay per view options, but once word gets around (and adventurers in vehicles travelling the wilds are better gossip-mills than old ladies along the back fence), crowds will start forming, admissions will start getting charged, and holodisc sales will go through the roof.
But in real combat, the damage would escalate. After all, almost all pro-wrestling moves, if they're not properly rehearsed, would do nasty, nasty damage to people.

There are some excellent movies out there on the subject that A GM could use as a reference for the business aspect of borg wrestling. If you Google it, you can find an X-ray of the top jaw detached from the skull of a pro wrestling match gone wrong. After watching some documentary on the industry, its hard to think of pro wrestlers as roid raging rednecks.

Aren't they more quasi athletic stage actors?

frogboy wrote:In my opinion, I would class them as professional stun men and women as well as full blown stage actors. I dont want to or mean to detract from there profession (it is a profession) or anything. Some folks get real touchy about it.

...and professional concussed men and women, professional strained men and women, professional knocked senseless by that folding chair to the face men and women....
And I agree, you don't want somebody annoyed at you who can can get really touchy and grabby and grappley and flexy and bend you into a meat-pretzel.

frogboy wrote:In my opinion, I would class them as professional stun men and women as well as full blown stage actors. I dont want to or mean to detract from there profession (it is a profession) or anything. Some folks get real touchy about it.

I'll give them that. Professional stunt men and actors. *nods*

The on-stage action is pretty easy to resolve. After all, it's not combat to the death, but there are a lot of combination moves (combination moves are really common in real combat and actual hand to hand training) that would properly allow for the in-ring maneuvers.
Using the maneuvers in combat, however, would be a bit different. After all, a Stone Cold Stunner would do partial damage to the character, and full to the creature that the maneuver is being performed on.

Isn't there already a gladiator OOC in rifts including the gladiator combat that is more showy, less 'quickly lethal'?

The Underground wrote:lime i said, your borg will have to take gymnatics courses. (whole he's at it, he might wanna have his gears specially modified for that purpose, but retaining the "big tough guy" styling).

Double-joints, extra shock absorbers, and maybe some fake rubber artificial musculature on the outside that can be flexed for effect(and which can double as passive shock absorption). Plastic bristle hair pieces that serve the same purpose.
Extra gyroscopes for balance, and center-of-gravity shifting mechanisms for those complicated aerials.

taalismn wrote:

The Underground wrote:lime i said, your borg will have to take gymnatics courses. (whole he's at it, he might wanna have his gears specially modified for that purpose, but retaining the "big tough guy" styling).

Double-joints, extra shock absorbers, and maybe some fake rubber artificial musculature on the outside that can be flexed for effect(and which can double as passive shock absorption). Plastic bristle hair pieces that serve the same purpose.
Extra gyroscopes for balance, and center-of-gravity shifting mechanisms for those complicated aerials.

Or just do it cheeper and cooler with Juicers. *Grins* IF you're going to do the above and what not, it'd likely not be borgs, but... robots.. Pretty much exactly like the Hugh Jackman movie. Wouldn't it? Why Risk death when a robots' just a machine that you can rebuild if it gets wrecked?

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Isn't there already a gladiator OOC in rifts including the gladiator combat that is more showy, less 'quickly lethal'?

Yes, but those guys typically aren't full-cons; they're meat-types maybe with the odd cyborg limb or biowizardry mod. The same skill sets and combat style can still apply to cyborg wrestlers, however, if they're all-out professional.
IMO, if the combat style is geared to 'tuning down' routinely lethal MD blows, that style can be used for professional sports where hammering and submission holds aren't supposed to end fatal holes punched through people or terminal dismemberment.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Or just do it cheeper and cooler with Juicers. *Grins* IF you're going to do the above and what not, it'd likely not be borgs, but... robots.. Pretty much exactly like the Hugh Jackman movie. Wouldn't it? Why Risk death when a robots' just a machine that you can rebuild if it gets wrecked?

You'll always have those sorts who bemoan it just ain't the same if you ain't actually in the ring getting the snot and oil beaten out of you; the very proximity of danger, even with rules, gives you that extra zing of adrenaline (even if you're encased in inches of cobham plate and your glands run on batteries) that proxy-punching doesn't.
And even in all-robot fights(or the reverse; cyborgs-only) how many times has a 'ringer' been inserted into a match? The more careful matches might have an imprtial Operator or psychic run a check before the match to make sure that big metal bruiser is really a 'borg or a 'bot.

frogboy wrote:
Or as stains on the carpet,

That's what MDC plastic fiber carpeting and high pressure water hoses are for....
For those upscale gaming venues that see a lot of action.

Hey, I didn't read anyone mentioning that Rifter 3 (no longer in print, but you can legaly buy it in PDF) has a Wrestling Hand to Hand skill that is styled after "sports entertainment" or professional wrestling...just sayin...

Well, this *is* a sport that's just beginning. But I see no reason why it wouldn't take off in popularity with the proper marketing.
As for keeping everything 'kosher', as it were, the sport is still beginning. As in it started up less than a week prior. Regulations have taken a backseat to coolness in the ring for now, but that'll change in the future.

Prysus wrote:

Greetings and Salutations. You know, all this talk of hand to hand style suggestions got me thinking. There is a martial art in Mystic China (not Rifts China, but the N&S supplement). Mystic China, page 175-177 has Chao Ta Kung Fu. This style is designed for aspiring actors in martial arts films. While that's not exactly the same thing, there are a lot of similar concepts. The martial art basically focuses around showmanship, acting, not taking damage, and making things look good. Just an added thought for you to look at. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Kudos to Prysus and Hystrix for good Martial Arts memories. These are indeed applicable for more 'civilized' bouts beyond the wood lot rib-cracking, limb-dislocating, and eye-gouging fights more typical of the post-apocalyptic regions.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

taalismn wrote:

The Underground wrote:lime i said, your borg will have to take gymnatics courses. (whole he's at it, he might wanna have his gears specially modified for that purpose, but retaining the "big tough guy" styling).

Double-joints, extra shock absorbers, and maybe some fake rubber artificial musculature on the outside that can be flexed for effect(and which can double as passive shock absorption). Plastic bristle hair pieces that serve the same purpose.
Extra gyroscopes for balance, and center-of-gravity shifting mechanisms for those complicated aerials.

Or just do it cheeper and cooler with Juicers. *Grins* IF you're going to do the above and what not, it'd likely not be borgs, but... robots.. Pretty much exactly like the Hugh Jackman movie. Wouldn't it? Why Risk death when a robots' just a machine that you can rebuild if it gets wrecked?

There was a somewhat short sci-fi story where the protagonist was a combat sport 'athlete', only it was via a remote-operated neural-linked robot chassis and who lived (you could effectively 'eat' as the costlier models had artificial senses of smell and taste'. To ensure he would lose his next fight the body he was tooling around in gets trashed by the mafia forcing him into his real body (good thing the suspension tanks keep the bodies fit) where the shock would prevent him being able to hook back in to another chassis in time. His manager having never seen his real body comments on his 'going with a low-grade chassis' and sends him into the fight where he pulls off a miracle win (I wonder if he later got disqualified since he wasn't fighting in a chassis? ) and he came to realize nothing beat the excitement of real physical activity and life.

Nightmask wrote:[

There was a somewhat short sci-fi story where the protagonist was a combat sport 'athlete', only it was via a remote-operated neural-linked robot chassis and who lived (you could effectively 'eat' as the costlier models had artificial senses of smell and taste'. To ensure he would lose his next fight the body he was tooling around in gets trashed by the mafia forcing him into his real body (good thing the suspension tanks keep the bodies fit) where the shock would prevent him being able to hook back in to another chassis in time. His manager having never seen his real body comments on his 'going with a low-grade chassis' and sends him into the fight where he pulls off a miracle win (I wonder if he later got disqualified since he wasn't fighting in a chassis? ) and he came to realize nothing beat the excitement of real physical activity and life.

I recall a story like that.
I also remember another story with a slightly different take, where the fights are between bio-engineered monsters controlled by brain-linked 'pilots'. One team and its woman 'meat-jockey' are known to be particularly vicious and skilled in the ring, taking down their opponents time and again, much to the dimay of the gambling rackets, who are losing money off the winning streak...The mafia decides that since the lady won't take a hint and take a fall, she has to die, and they dispatch a hitman to kill her.
It's only after the assassin kills her in her team kennel that he discovers the REAL reason the monster's been winning. Before the streak began, the woman suffered a near-fatal car accident, and the only way to save her life(or life from being paralyzed) was to transplant her brain into the team kill-saur, and she stayed that way, her old body being puppet-rigged. Her wins are from her adrenaline rush and her survival instincts facing the opposition in the flesh, she explains as her (bullet-proof) gladiator beast rips apart the mafia hitman.

frogboy wrote:So that leaves the names. In my day (erly 80's) we had "Hacksaw Jim Duggen" And the like. For Rifts Earth what would it be ? How about "Vibro Blade Bob The Borg" Vs. "Manny The Meat Puppet Magilicutty" (a juicer)in a winner takes all ladder match.

"Hammerin Slammerin' Bill Pickens, 'Deadly Blind Nightshade'(Altaran Warrior Woman), 'Piledriver Chrome', 'Ten Ton Willie', 'Squeeze'(Snakeman wrestler), 'Tank Eater', 'The Cannibal', 'Old Detroit Steel', 'Mad Mad Bombin' Barry!', 'The Crippler', 'The Catapult'(his signature move is throwing his opponents from the ring), and "MEGA-MUSCLE".

frogboy wrote:Billzaborg the mangler Vs, twerp the shifter mouse.

Godzilla versus Bambi?

Serial Killer McBrodkil vs Whimpmeister the Cubicle Warrior!

Or Ric Flair. He'll prolly still be wresting in 110 PA...

taalismn wrote:

The Underground wrote:lime i said, your borg will have to take gymnatics courses. (whole he's at it, he might wanna have his gears specially modified for that purpose, but retaining the "big tough guy" styling).

Double-joints, extra shock absorbers, and maybe some fake rubber artificial musculature on the outside that can be flexed for effect(and which can double as passive shock absorption). Plastic bristle hair pieces that serve the same purpose.
Extra gyroscopes for balance, and center-of-gravity shifting mechanisms for those complicated aerials.

Agreed, in Rifts a full conversion borg in many areas is pretty common place. So to create Wrestlers (just like today) you would need to add some over-the-top flair.
To the statement earlier by whoever that was I'd think that a Pro wrestling Borg would want it's joints to be able to pop off to add to the effect of the action. A Monster truck crushing cars is fun but when the wheels break-away and go flying that makes the people stand and cheer. (this would make a great unofficial contest. hint, hint)

frogboy wrote:
That is a great point . One borg could rip an arm off an opponent and use as a melee weapon.

And there's always the fake remote control head that gets ripped off the shoulders and continues complaining while the 'headless' body blunders around behind the guy holding the head, before coming back to hit him from behind for a 'heel' maneuver.

And the concealed extra limbs that come out and pimp-slap the other guy during a grapple.

it depends on what wrestlemania if it was a early one then Pro Wrestling is strong
the old school Hart facility used a lot of traditional catch wrestling moves that are quite effective in real life and are baseed off Farmer Burns codification of the catch wrestling method
even a ddt or a pile driver will work well in real life if perform problay
I've even used the a modified camel clutch by using a high back mount with while trianlging the body in grappling
and pro wrestling has been shown effective in mma
go match Minowa or Dajiro matsui vs Pele
for examples of the drop kick being used
and Minowa has a fight were he piledrived a guy

These are excellent ideas. Thank you all for the wonderful ideas, guys. I'm still working out what a 1-ton borg with a 30 Robotic PS will do for damage in real combat using the wrestling maneuvers, but the show stuff will be awesome. I have so many ideas that I'm going to inflict on my players. The guy playing the borg is the one who thought it up, and when he returns from the wilderness, there'll be some awesome surprises waiting for him in the ring.

frogboy wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:These are excellent ideas. Thank you all for the wonderful ideas, guys. I'm still working out what a 1-ton borg with a 30 Robotic PS will do for damage in real combat using the wrestling maneuvers, but the show stuff will be awesome. I have so many ideas that I'm going to inflict on my players. The guy playing the borg is the one who thought it up, and when he returns from the wilderness, there'll be some awesome surprises waiting for him in the ring.

Heck some wrestle mania would be a nice diversion from a typical mission, and a fun way to make some credits as well.

I absolutely agree with you. We have the wrestler (the borg), the Round Girl (21 p.b. Maxi-man woman in a v-kini), and the special effects guys (Battle Magus and Ley Line Walker). Once K'Zaa gets this organized, the pro wrestling becomes a cover for the group's wanderings as they search for pre-Rifts locations.