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If you allow a character to change classes, would you allow a Nega-Psychic to become an Obsidian Spell Thief? The crux is that Nega-Psychics (from Psyscape) are immune to curses.

If I would allow a NP to change class it would be like the process with Cosmo knights or Apok, the entire old class would be gone. With none of the Nega-phyicic PCC powers being retained. Not just frozen like with normal changing OCC rules have the Old OCC do.

The Why:
With a PCC like a Nega-Psi or a Mind Melter, or a Mind Mage or any other PSi based classes (aka PCC's), you have to change the nature of being before the char can be another class. This is because their Natrue of Being shapes their class.

Rider wrote:There was a dual-classed mind mage/knight in the old Tombs of Gersidi campaign in the original PF. I don't see why PCCs/RCCs could not get an OCC.

Then you did not read my previous post and the reasons under "The Why"
(if you want the rules lawyer version) There is also the part that the only canon rules about changing class only applies to PF OCC's. So those classes not covered by the canon rules can not use those rules.

Gives an extrim example:
Ignorant PC:Why can't my vampire take that OCC.
GM: Because it is not in their nature to be able to.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Rider wrote:There was a dual-classed mind mage/knight in the old Tombs of Gersidi campaign in the original PF. I don't see why PCCs/RCCs could not get an OCC.

Then you did not read my previous post and the reasons under "The Why"
(if you want the rules lawyer version) There is also the part that the only canon rules about changing class only applies to PF OCC's. So those classes not covered by the canon rules can not use those rules.

Gives an extrim example:
Ignorant PC:Why can't my vampire take that OCC.
GM: Because it is not in their nature to be able to.

How about ignorant GM: You can't because it's not in the rulebook and Kevin wouldn't approve.

barna10 wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Rider wrote:There was a dual-classed mind mage/knight in the old Tombs of Gersidi campaign in the original PF. I don't see why PCCs/RCCs could not get an OCC.

Then you did not read my previous post and the reasons under "The Why"
(if you want the rules lawyer version) There is also the part that the only canon rules about changing class only applies to PF OCC's. So those classes not covered by the canon rules can not use those rules.

Gives an extreme example:
Ignorant PC:Why can't my vampire take that OCC.
GM: Because it is not in their nature to be able to.

How about ignorant GM: You can't because it's not in the rulebook and Kevin wouldn't approve.

When talking about any setting other then PF, there is no rules for changing class.
And no RT does not have any changing class rules anymore, with the non-canonizing of all the 1st ed RT books.

So your ignorant GM would only be effectively ignorant only if the setting being played is PF.

But that is besides the point I was making.
PCC's and True RCC's will not change their class due to that their "state of being"/"self image"/"nature" does not let them contemplate being something other then what they are.
(side note: the reason I used the term 'True RCC's' is that most of the 'so called' RCC's that are out there are really ether Races stupidly labeled as an RCC, or are PCC's labeled as RCC's. There are also some Racially Restricted CC's(RRCC) that are labeled as RCC's too.)

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

barna10 wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Rider wrote:There was a dual-classed mind mage/knight in the old Tombs of Gersidi campaign in the original PF. I don't see why PCCs/RCCs could not get an OCC.

Then you did not read my previous post and the reasons under "The Why"
(if you want the rules lawyer version) There is also the part that the only canon rules about changing class only applies to PF OCC's. So those classes not covered by the canon rules can not use those rules.o

Gives an extreme example:
Ignorant PC:Why can't my vampire take that OCC.
GM: Because it is not in their nature to be able to.

How about ignorant GM: You can't because it's not in the rulebook and Kevin wouldn't approve.

When talking about any setting other then PF, there is no rules for changing class.
And no RT does not have any changing class rules anymore, with the non-canonizing of all the 1st ed RT books.

So your ignorant GM would only be effectively ignorant only if the setting being played is PF.

But that is besides the point I was making.
PCC's and True RCC's will not change their class due to that their "state of being"/"self image"/"nature" does not let them contemplate being something other then what they are.
(side note: the reason I used the term 'True RCC's' is that most of the 'so called' RCC's that are out there are really ether Races stupidly labeled as an RCC, or are PCC's labeled as RCC's. There are also some Racially Restricted CC's(RRCC) that are labeled as RCC's too.)

So I suppose psi-stalkers being allowed to other classes are some sort of anomaly? I think you're arguing purely from a play balance point of view and not at all being logical.

Rogue_Scientist wrote:

barna10 wrote:How about ignorant GM: You can't because it's not in the rulebook and Kevin wouldn't approve.

Pushy Player: "ZOMG! WHY THE **** CAN'T I MULTICLASS! I'VE RULES LAWYERED UP THIS ENTIRE CASE THAT SAYS I SHOULD BE ABLE TO, IF WE ONLY IGNORE THE RULE AGAINST MULTi-CLASSING! GAWDDD!!!"

Wise GM: "Get the **** out."

er..ok. First, thread was started with this question: "IF I would allow a NP to change class it would be like the process with Cosmo knights or Apok, the entire old class would be gone. With none of the Nega-phyicic PCC powers being retained. Not just frozen like with normal changing OCC rules have the Old OCC do."

Whether or not PC can change classes is not in question.

Second, drewkitty is stuck on this ridiculous "nature of being" drek. A nega-psyhic in BTS may get his powers from his "being" a non-believer, but the Rifts version is different. He is a mutant. Also, becoming a spell thief is nothing like being remade by the cosmic forge.

In addition, if there weren't tens (possibly hundreds) of examples from Rifts supplements of characters that have changed their O.C.C. or just outright break the rules, I would support your points about multi-classing a nega-psychic into a spell thief, but sadly there are countless examples of stuff like this in MATERIAL FROM THE GAME GODS AT PALLADIUM.

This is a game where one can play gods, uber-heroes, and supposedly anything, but you can't be an exception to the rule? Are you trying to say that ONLY N.P.C.s can be exceptions? That P.C.s are always to be run-of-the-mill, straight-out-of-the-book characters? I thought P.C.s were the exceptions, the ones that wouldn't stay on the farm but would instead choose to risk life and limb seeking fame and fortune.

Lastly, the only reason there multi-classing is poo-pooed in Palladium is because of the clunky mechanics and potential for a "game-breaking" character (which on that note, how can you have an over-powered or game-breaking character in a game where you can play gods?). All this "nature of being" drek and the like are just ways of saying "the rules say you can't". They are attempts to make sense of a stupid, lazy rule that makes no sense and isn't even adhered to in official supplements!

If one can't multi-class, how do older sea-titans pick up a magic O.C.C.? How do dragons learn multiple types of magic? And does it really sound logical that someone could not go through an apprenticeship to become a wizard unless they NEVER HAD A JOB or SKILLS? That a master psychic can't become a mage (I guess unless they are sea-titans, read Underseas)?

How can you even try to follow the rule when there are so many obvious contradictions, at every turn!

2)Barna you need to get your ****ing facts strait.
Nega-Psi Are Not mutants, there is not a word about them being mutants in Psyscape nor BTS. The reason I'm using terms like "The nature of the beast" is that is the Why PCC's DO NOT CHANGE THEIR CLASS, CAUSE THEY DO NOT ****ING WANT TO. Because they can not even think of being something else. I am Not making this up. I am taking this from a game book. And that is why the PF changing OCC rules do not apply to PCC's.

If you don't play in the class, much like playing in their alinement, then why the **** are you chose that class? If you are getting board with the class then you are board with the char. Make a new char of a new class, have fun.

This is Besides the fact that the only published canon changing class rules only apply to PF OCC's.

{Just look at the way you said NP could change, you have them changing their "nature" completely. It Takes GM fiat to make a change in the nature of the char. Thus, such a change is not in the canon rules.}

Look at the neat thing I found, Psyscape list the following classes as PCC's: Burster, Mind Bleeder, Mind Melter, Nega-Psychic, Psi-Druid, Psi-Ghost, Psi-Nulifier, Psi-Slayer, Psi-Tech, Psi-Warrior, and Zapper.
However, here are where PB ****ed-Up, the Mind Bleeder is not human and is really a True RCC. If the Psi-Ghost is part of the super powered family that makes up most of the class, then they are a mutant breed of humanity therefor a true RCC.


NPC's do not set precedent for PC's. I wish people would stop bringing them up when they argue about being able to Munchkinize characters. The NPC's can break the rules because KS let the writers break them for the part of being those uber opponents for the PC's. DUhhh. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. It is like a GM letting his or her players break the canon rules for their game. But that does not mean that the canon rules are not still in force for everyone else.


Technically PC's can not play "GODS", they can only play 'godlings', 'demigods' and 'avatars of a god'. So stop the ****ing debate Hype. It is like I am talking to politisons that only want to play the debate game to win for their own way to run the country, while the country they are suppose to be serving gets ****ed-up. I am Not Debating House Rules, I'm saying what the Canon says.
{[mini-rant]Both Rep, and dem are ruining this nation, but the rep are the ones I mad ate right now for holding up the recovery. And I am a republican. I'm ****ing tired of not working.[/mini-rant]}

A Sea-Titan mystic study... hummm why would that work? It would not work, it is like having a HU char having TWO power cats. It can not be done as per the canon rules. ****ing Munchkins want to screw up the game rules so they can munch out their chars.

Dragons live long enough to be able to proceed through a class and then change to another class. Thus you get the old dragon NPC's with multiple 'classes'. Because they were (<--see past tense) those classes during their lifetime.
Yes, dragons as they stand for PC's to play them, they can't change from their RCC. Deal with it in your house rules. But Do Not State Your House Rules As If They Are Canon. Present them as your "house rules".
{A way to deal with the dragon/skills issue would be to look to the HU ed system or decide that PB is wrong and deal with them as if they are just another race.}

The rules you are complaining about are not contradictory. You are applying rules that do not apply to somethings and finding out they do work when applied to the things they do not apply to.

drewkitty,

I think it boils down to this, I see the game as having limitless possibilities and you see nothing but limits. I enable imagination, you're a party pooper. I think logically, like to debate, and like to explore and push boundaries; you like to say no.

We will not see eye-to-eye and that's fine, but you are wrong. People change their nature every day, in the real world and in the fictional one. You present HU as an example, so I will present super-heroes. Take Magick from the x-family. She was a mutant, then became a sorcerer (all before the age of 16!). Doctor Strange was a leading plastic surgeon before becoming a mage. I could go on for pages with examples and you'll just say "not in the rules".

I guess I didn't realize how second rate Palladium was. But wait, maybe it's just some of the fans.

As a side, stop blaming others (ie the Republicans in Washington) for your problems. You might actually improve your situation. They are standing their ground and they should; you can't spend your way out of debt crisis!

(Lastly, clean up your language ya cretin)

It is a game of limitless possibilities, with in the rules set. Which are only changed by GM fiat.
The Problem I'm seeing is that people are presenting the GM fiat as the canon rules.

I have presented my arguments logically, it is just I'm presenting the logic behind the rules, not trying to break the rules.

It is alright to have precedents from comics in your game. But when it comes to answering questions HERE in the forums, the answer needs to be canon.

Or presented as "these are our house rules" if you are presenting something other then canon.

Here is the why, because there is already so ****ing much debate about what is canon, throwing in someone's house rules as if it was canon just muddies the waters exponentially.

I will have to say that when Nerilka Sundance and I do agree with what is canon, there is not much to argue about because when we agree, that is what canon turns out to be when the books are opened what we said is what the books say.
But when we disagree, it is because ether PB frelled up and wrote conflicting rules or PB frelled up and wrote ambiguous rules or PB just frelled up. After the first few arguments I usually present both sides of the argument, even if the other side is mentioned in just the basic idea.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:It is a game of limitless possibilities, with in the rules set. Which are only changed by GM fiat.
The Problem I'm seeing is that people are presenting the GM fiat as the canon rules.

I have presented my arguments logically, it is just I'm presenting the logic behind the rules, not trying to break the rules.

It is alright to have precedents from comics in your game. But when it comes to answering questions HERE in the forums, the answer needs to be canon.

Or presented as "these are our house rules" if you are presenting something other then canon.

Here is the why, because there is already so ****ing much debate about what is canon, throwing in someone's house rules as if it was canon just muddies the waters exponentially.

I will have to say that when Nerilka Sundance and I do agree with what is canon, there is not much to argue about because when we agree, that is what canon turns out to be when the books are opened what we said is what the books say.
But when we disagree, it is because ether PB frelled up and wrote conflicting rules or PB frelled up and wrote ambiguous rules or PB just frelled up. After the first few arguments I usually present both sides of the argument, even if the other side is mentioned in just the basic idea.

Pure drek. Way to toot your own horn! I really don't care what you or any one else in your illiterate fraternity of rules lawyers has to say about switching O.C.C.s. I say illiterate because if you read the original question, you wouldn't be chiming in about whether or not switching O.C.C.s was legal!

The original question (for those who missed it the other two times I posted it):

IF YOU ALLOW A CHARACTER TO CHANGE CLASSES, would you allow a Nega-Psychic to become an Obsidian Spell Thief? The crux is that Nega-Psychics (from Psyscape) are immune to curses.

Does it need to be any more clear that we are playing outside the canon box? Do I really need to put a *HOUSE RULES* flag on that? Maybe if you weren't so busy trying to impress all the teenagers here you might not miss the ENGLISH LANGUAGE that the question was posted in.

barna10 wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:It is a game of limitless possibilities, with in the rules set. Which are only changed by GM fiat.
The Problem I'm seeing is that people are presenting the GM fiat as the canon rules.

I have presented my arguments logically, it is just I'm presenting the logic behind the rules, not trying to break the rules.

It is alright to have precedents from comics in your game. But when it comes to answering questions HERE in the forums, the answer needs to be canon.

Or presented as "these are our house rules" if you are presenting something other then canon.

Here is the why, because there is already so ****ing much debate about what is canon, throwing in someone's house rules as if it was canon just muddies the waters exponentially.

I will have to say that when Nerilka Sundance and I do agree with what is canon, there is not much to argue about because when we agree, that is what canon turns out to be when the books are opened what we said is what the books say.
But when we disagree, it is because ether PB frelled up and wrote conflicting rules or PB frelled up and wrote ambiguous rules or PB just frelled up. After the first few arguments I usually present both sides of the argument, even if the other side is mentioned in just the basic idea.

Pure drek. Way to toot your own horn! I really don't care what you or any one else in your illiterate fraternity of rules lawyers has to say about switching O.C.C.s. I say illiterate because if you read the original question, you wouldn't be chiming in about whether or not switching O.C.C.s was legal!

The original question (for those who missed it the other two times I posted it):

IF YOU ALLOW A CHARACTER TO CHANGE CLASSES, would you allow a Nega-Psychic to become an Obsidian Spell Thief? The crux is that Nega-Psychics (from Psyscape) are immune to curses.

Does it need to be any more clear that we are playing outside the canon box? Do I really need to put a *HOUSE RULES* flag on that? Maybe if you weren't so busy trying to impress all the teenagers here you might not miss the ENGLISH LANGUAGE that the question was posted in.

*Points at the 2nd post of the topic.*
Notice I phrased it as "If I was GM" speaking.
I did notice that until someone necro'ed the topic, there were no other posts. Like I answer the question and No-one else had anything to add to it.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote: *Points at the 2nd post of the topic.*
Notice I phrased it as "If I was GM" speaking.
I did notice that until someone necro'ed the topic, there were no other posts. Like I answer the question and No-one else had anything to add to it.

*TOOT* *TOOT*

Looks in the dictionary

ah...the last word is ZZZ

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Looks in the dictionary

ah...the last word is ZZZ

If all you are going to do is recite what the notebooks say, why waste your breath? All you are doing is reciting someone else's creativity, someone else's thoughts. Sad.

barna10 wrote:If you allow a character to change classes, would you allow a Nega-Psychic to become an Obsidian Spell Thief? The crux is that Nega-Psychics (from Psyscape) are immune to curses.

Given this vague statement If I was a GM and this situation came up, probably not cause I agree with drewkitty ~..~.

It has to make sense why a NP would want to become a ST. To me it sounds like a player exploiting a loop hole just from what is being said. Now if i understood the context of the game I might change my mind cause I'm all about a good story and if I'm the GM I can balance anything in my game.

Carl Gleba wrote:

barna10 wrote:If you allow a character to change classes, would you allow a Nega-Psychic to become an Obsidian Spell Thief? The crux is that Nega-Psychics (from Psyscape) are immune to curses.

Given this vague statement If I was a GM and this situation came up, probably not cause I agree with drewkitty ~..~.

It has to make sense why a NP would want to become a ST. To me it sounds like a player exploiting a loop hole just from what is being said. Now if i understood the context of the game I might change my mind cause I'm all about a good story and if I'm the GM I can balance anything in my game.

"Why" is not important. This is purely an exercise to explore the boundaries of several mechanics: the Nega-Psychic's immunity to curses and the Spell-Thief's curse.

Why do you assume this a player wanting to become more powerful or someone looking for loop-holes? I am asking you to address some grey areas in the meta-mechanics of Palladium reality.

So let me re-address: Assumming that one can change classes, can a Nega-Psychic go through the training process to become an Obsidian Spell Thief, and actually come out with the powers of a spell thief?

There are many issues here (none of which deal with why this is happening or whether or not this is munhkinism so go away if this is your response) :

If you throw a curse at a Nega-Psychic, do you somehow sense that he is immune to curses? (remember that he can't be detected magically)
Is the curse of an Obsidian Spell Thief (OST) integral with the O.C.C.'s powers?
If the OST's curse is removed, do the powers remain?
When in the training process is the OST cursed (beginning, middle, end)?
If it isn't the beginning, would the spell-thief be able to leave/escape trqaining and have some/all the O.C.C.'s abilities sans curse?

To me, the Nega-Psychic seems like a prime target for recruitment by the Dark Covens. They can't be detected magically (super-stealth!) and their power to disrupt magic works just as well with magical traps. I can imagine a power hungry coven member trying to create his own breed of super thieves.

Rogue_Scientist wrote:

barna10 wrote: Do I really need to put a *HOUSE RULES* flag on that?

Um...yes? If you're just going to make up your own **** and play by those rules, why post looking for approval?

Are you all allergic to philosophy? Jesus, I'm not looking for anyone's approval! What weak idiot would need to post here seeking approval to do something in their own game? Now, anyone wish to post an actual opinion?

Carl Gleba wrote:

barna10 wrote:If you allow a character to change classes, would you allow a Nega-Psychic to become an Obsidian Spell Thief? The crux is that Nega-Psychics (from Psyscape) are immune to curses.

Given this vague statement If I was a GM and this situation came up, probably not cause I agree with drewkitty ~..~.

It has to make sense why a NP would want to become a ST. To me it sounds like a player exploiting a loop hole just from what is being said. Now if i understood the context of the game I might change my mind cause I'm all about a good story and if I'm the GM I can balance anything in my game.

[edit: first thing was irrelevant, removed.]

Second, there is no context. Why does there have to be context to it? Its a philosophical debate (in RolePlaying context).

There is two facts. There is a Nega Psychic, and he wants to become a Obsidian Spell Thief. That is it.

What are the implications there of, can he learn it? Being immune to curses does his power get "unhinged" so to speak since there is no curse to make him forget the spells. ect.



@ DrewKitty, Nature of the beast huh? Why are military men/women seeking to find domestic jobs when they leave service after their tour(s). They are military, they have no dreams of being anything but in the military.

Rogue_Scientist wrote:

barna10 wrote:

Rogue_Scientist wrote:

barna10 wrote: Do I really need to put a *HOUSE RULES* flag on that?

Um...yes? If you're just going to make up your own **** and play by those rules, why post looking for approval?

Are you all allergic to philosophy? Jesus, I'm not looking for anyone's approval! What weak idiot would need to post here seeking approval to do something in their own game?

A better question is "what kind of idiot posts pointless philosophical questions and then trolls/flames all who respond?"

The answer is "an idiot with too much time on their hands".

barna10 wrote:Now, anyone wish to post an actual opinion?

Yes. The idea sucks, you suck, and this thread sucks.

*shrug* You asked.

/exit

Ok, who's trolling again? Sorry, didn't realize discussing things like this was pointless. Guess I'll just move on to posts about how great this game is and how intelligent people with thousands of posts are (what's that about too much time on one's hands...).

Dips into an etiquette commentary.
This is not targeted at anyone particular, but to everyone it applies to.

Without saying that the rules you post are house rules are house rules some Noob or someone else that does not know better will take them as canon. If you do not specifically say that are your house rules you have posted are your house rules or that your opinions are just your opinions, then it is you being the in the wronge, not the person trying to correct your bad behavior.

Please remember to be polite to one another and to not comment ont he poster but instead focus on the content they have posted.

Have a great day