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Rogue_Scientist wrote:Yes, but the argument against goes roughly as follows:

In character creation, technically you choose a race first, roll stats (including HP/SDC), do the optional psionics/background stuff, THEN choose an OCC. Since rolling for PE and determining MDC takes place a step or two before selecting OCC, starting MDC should already be set at base PE x5, and PE bonuses from OCC and skill selection should not apply.

Greetings and Salutations. So the argument against roughly goes:

Step 5 can alter Step 1 (the 8 attributes, and the attribute bonus chart), but Step 5 cannot alter Step 2 because 2 comes before 5?

While the counter-argument appears sound as a stand alone point, it just seems to break down when looking at it as a whole (in my opinion). Anyways, just wanted to offer the expanded view on the other argument. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Rogue_Scientist wrote:I'm guessing you don't do much math, coding, or instructional design in your personal/professional life?

You may roll characters "as a whole", but the book clearly prescribes a step-by-step approach. These are not the same things, and ignoring the nuances can produce large errors and unintended consequences.

Ex:

• 4+6x6 does not equal 60, although it can appear that way when taken "as a whole".
• A recipe that states: "Preheat oven to 400, place pizza on the middle oven rack for 10-15m, remove pizza from oven and allow to cool for 5m before cutting." will not produce the same results as one stating "Place pizza on the middle oven rack for 10-15m, remove pizza from oven and allow to cool for 5m before cutting, preheat oven to 400".

Greetings and Salutations. I understand following step by step instructions can indeed be important. But you seem to focus on the world "whole" instead of what I actually said. So I'll ask you this question instead:

If we have proof Step 5 will override/change/alter/adjust Step 1, why is it more logical that Step 2 is can't be changed/altered/adjusted by Step 5? If we're following instructions step by step, why is Step 2 so much more important than Step 1?

Because that's the logic I'm not following. Maybe I'm missing the math side of it (which I'm actually pretty good at), but I can't find a good math reason why 2 is higher than 1 and 5 at the same time. Now, if the text said that Step 2 is the most important step of the whole process and that if you make sure to do one thing right it's Step 2 because doing it wrong would break the whole game, that would be one thing. Of course, that's NOT the case. If Palladium does say that anywhere (and I've missed it all these years), I'd love to see that reference because that's news to me. What we do have is Palladium showing that Step 5 (O.C.C./Skills) can change/alter/adjust Step 1 (the 8 Attributes, as well as the exceptional attribute bonus chart also contained within Step 1).

Now, if you're unaware that Step 5 has any bearing on Step 1, then feel free to ask. I can provide book references. Hopefully that makes more sense to you this time. So let's look at the facts as a whole (not Character Creation), in no particular order (so no need to place extra importance on 1).

1: Following step by step instructions in order is often (but not always) very important.
2: Step 1 comes before Step 2 or Step 5.
3: The number 5 (in a pure numerical value) is greater than 2 and 2 is greater than 1. Note: This is irrelevent when following step by step instructions, but it's important when 2 is placed higher than 1.
4: In PB Character Creation, Step 1 involves the eight attributes as a whole. While this step includes rolling, it's not limited to rolling and also includes their descriptions, the varying strength tables, the speed chart table, the exceptional attribute chart, etc.
5: In PB Character Creation, Step 2 is based off of figures from Step 1.
6: In PB Character Creation, Step 5 can alter and adjust every figure from Step 1 (if a character rolls a P.S. of 14, with skills and O.C.C. bonuses that P.S. is boosted to 16 or higher, he gains the full exceptional attribute bonuses from Step 1).

The counter argument being made (when we look at more of the facts): Step 5 can alter Step 1. Step 1 is the basis for Step 2. Step 2 cannot be altered by Step 5 (or the changes made to Step 1) because Step 2 comes before Step 5. The fact Step 5 alters Step 1 and Step 1 comes before Step 2 is irrelevent because ...

Note: I left the end of that sentence off because I can't honestly come up with any good excuse, which is why I said the argument breaks down as a whole. As far as I can see, it's giving Step 2 arbitrary importance over Step 1 as well. Maybe I'm missing something (I doubt it), but hey, I'm always willing to keep an open mind.

Anyways, I think I've gone on long enough. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Greetings and Salutations. If you comment solely on my computer programming skills, you might have a point (I'm not a programmer), but you also commented on math and ability to follow instructions. So I'll give some different examples for you:

Cooking the pizza (as per your example above):
1: Preheat oven to 400.
2: Keeping the oven at 400, place pizza on the middle oven rack for 10-15m.
3: Remove pizza from oven and allow to cool for 5m before cutting.
4: If the pizza doesn't come out as you like it or cooked unevenly, adjust heating temperature in the future.

I think it came out a little overcooked, so next time I decide I'm going to set the oven to 375 when I preheat (as per Step 4's instruction). When I go to put the pizza in the oven, do I automatically set put back up to 400? Your argument says that yes, I would have to. I think if you can actually read and follow instructions, you'll know that if Step 1 changes you have to change Step 2 to make it still work.

Let's put this into a math problem:
PE = X
HP = Z

Equation: X*5 = Z

So let's say I roll 12 for my PE. That means X = 12.

Equation: 12*5= Z (doing math, we know that Z = 60).

What happens when the value of X changes? Does Z continue equaling 60? No, it doesn't.

Computer example:
My computer programming is limited, but I know a bit about Excel (which admittedly does a lot of math, but will help show the example of math, and the computer following instructions).

PE = [B6 Cell].
For Hit Points we enter: "=B6*5"

If the value of the B6 Cell changes (i.e. the P.E. value), will the hit point value change? For those that don't know Excel, yes it will. This is an easy sample anyone who likes can try (I believe Open Office which is for free should have a program like this so anyone really can try it). This is how a computer will handle the answer.

Note: While I understand the formula above (I couldn't program it, but I can follow it), you're focusing only on the MDC part to try and say it makes sense. Why not follow that logic further?

Also included in Step 1 are the tables for figuring out running speed. Is this off the initial roll only and modifiers meaningless?
Also included in Step 1 are the tables for the various strengths. Is this off the initial roll only and modifiers meaningless?
Also included in Step 1 are the tables for extraoordinary attribute bonuses. Is this off the initial rolls only and modifiers meaningless?

All of that is Step 1. If Step 1 was set in stone then that information couldn't change. Shouldn't your code be something like "Lifting: PS * 10"? This would be placed above even MDC (as Lifting is part of Step 1). And hey! If we're taking only the original rolls, no matter how much you train you can never lift anything more! If the MDC value (from Step 2) can't be affected, then the lifting values (from Step 1) shouldn't be affected either. But we know that is NOT true (neither in reality nor in game mechanics) and that was just one example. So if that logic doesn't apply to any other part of the game, then why apply that same logic to one specific aspect and insist that one aspect is right?

Though instead of just repeating the same points over and over, let me try something new. While R:UE finally changed the way we determine S.D.C. so everyone has the same, in the past we had a varying S.D.C. value based upon the type of class. Men at Arms had a higher starting S.D.C. than Practitioners of Magic for instance. This was determined in Step 2, and yet you had no S.D.C. Did that mean that characters had no S.D.C. at the time? I mean, that's Step 2 and if you don't select a class until Step 5 then you can't get the S.D.C. from being a Men at Arms or a Practitioner of Magic until get an O.C.C. Though even in R:UE, the book tells us to look at the O.C.C. for the information. So we have Step 1 telling us to look at Step 5. We have half of Step 2 specifically telling us to look at Step 5. We need Step 5 before we can have the starting/base value of SDC. So if part of Step 2 requires you to wait until Step 5 to even begin, why would it be more logical to suggest the other part can't wait?

Ever hear that you should read instructions (or even a test) all the way through before taking even the first step? There's a reason for that. Because sometimes a later step (or a later question) will give insight into earlier steps (or questions). Anyways, I think at this point I'll just be talking in circles. I can see the point of the coding, but I disagree with its application (because when taken further it would mean that lifting values, speed values, extraordinary attribute values, etc. are all limited by initial rolls only, and we know that is not true). When a form of stand alone logic breaks down when applied in entirety, when other forms of logic shows it's false, then it's time to abandon the stand alone logic. That's at least my opinion. Anyways, I think that's all for now (and I doubt I'll respond again). Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Rogue_Scientist wrote:I'm glad you see the futility of further posts, although I'm dismayed to see you wrap yourself in "I'm right, you're wrong" and attempt to walk off into the sunset.

Greetings and Salutatoins. Not at all. Do I think I'm right? Sure, of course. I think everyone does, same as you. Despite the programming attempt made (which I'll address below), you have yet to convince me that is a valid point. I'm still not opposed to the concept. My deciding to stop though isn't to walk off in the sunset on the matter. It's a matter of avoiding going in circles over and over.

Rogue_Scientist wrote:Your inability to recognize my point stems from ignorance. My inability to agree with your point comes from knowing better. These two are not equivalent.

Actually I openly admit that if it was computer programming alone, I'm far more ignorant. I didn't hide this fact. I disagreed how everything (including all math and methods following instructions in order). With that said, I'll feel better about your computer programming example if you address one fact (instead of ignoring it).

If program code is left to right, top to bottom. Changes made later don't directly affect changes made above. Therefore the code in MDC doesn't change because it comes above the code for skills (I follow that concept), then why does lifting values (part of the coding in Step 1) change? Or do you honestly argue that lifting (step 1) is only based off initial values, and regardless of bonuses (or later penalties) your lifting amount never changes? Note: That's just one example. There are a variety of other examples from Step 1, but they'll all basically fall under the same category.

I'm not asking you to teach me programming. I'm asking why all the rules for Step 1 (such as lifting, speed, exceptional attributes) change when they'd be above the MDC code which doesn't change? If you feel they don't, that's fine (though by the book, we know that's not true). Actually, I'd feel more comfortable with your theory if you can show me at least one (if not more) other aspect(s) of Character Creation that don't change (using initial roll values only) other than just Hit Points (or MDC value of the demi-god). So far you have yet to address that concern, which is what makes it nearly impossible to convince me that the argument isn't just saying this one part of the rules operates differently than all the others.

And, for the record, I actually have no major issues with lowering the HP/MDC if the PE was dropped to a lower number. Though, as an individual game master, I'd agree with your decision earlier (which I admit would be a houserule) to let the bonuses apply during character creation but not any bonuses/penalties later (but agreeing with that house rule has nothing to do with the validity of the counter-argument). Of course, I admit this is primarily for simplicity on my part (I don't want to have to remember to adjust the HP/MDC value each time I take a new skill, so eliminating that aspect gives me one less thing to worry about).

Anyways, I mostly made this post to address where I stand. So no, I'm not trying to walk off into the sunset with the "I'm right and you're wrong" attitude. But so far you've refused to address my main concern with your method. If you can't (or just unwilling) to address that problem, you'll never convince me the counter-argument is valid. What I'm seeking is the consistency in the ruling (not a stand alone point that needs to live inside a vacuum). Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Rogue_Scientist wrote:Your points have been addressed.

Greetings and Salutations. Reread your posts as a courtesy, but not addressed once. I'll keep it bare bones for you:

Rogue_Scientist wrote:Note: By convention, compilers read code left-to-right and top-to-bottom.

Check, but let's see when that's applied beyond just HP/MDC. I'll use the same psuedo code, adding the steps you missed (put in spoilers for space). I even put them in bold so they'd be easier for you to find (otherwise copy and paste).

My psuedo code is worse than yours (but notice where the other parts of Step 1 are added). If the character starts with a PS of 10, should he always just lift 100 pounds? Physical skills making a PS of 20 still means he can only lift 100 pounds? Loses an arm and muscles atrify to a PS of 3, still lifts 100 pounds? Lifting values, mph, etc. are part of Step 1.

That point has NOT been addressed (despite claims it has). Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.