Lunar Rifts

[Akashic Soldier]

I've stumbled across smatterings of info about Mars but what's on the Moon?

Are there any references to Lunar bases? Has the moon become lush and green like marvel's savage lands? What do you know about the great mother goddess of madness and the tides?

What is on the moon?

If a shifter looks at the moon can he teleport there?

[Killer Cyborg]

Read Mutants in Orbit.
The CAN Republic is on the moon.
Still a pretty barren place.

[azazel1024]

For a shifter, I don't know about rifting, but based on the spell teleport superior, the Moon is way, way, way out of range (about 200,000 miles away).

Also, the distance is such that you don't have a fine reference point. IIRC or maybe I should say, IMHO you have to have a clear view of where you are teleporting. Looking at something the size of your outstretched thumb nail that is thousands of miles across is not a clear enough image of where you are teleporting to do it with any kind of accuracy (just as like to appear in orbit as below the crust or actually on your intended spot on the surface).

[taalismn]

Ther's at least one Rifts Nexus on the Moon, but the CAN Republic keeps the site zeroed in the sights of some long range artillery and robot troops, against the chance of anything nasty coming out of a dimensional Rift.

[azazel1024]

I can see ley line phasing it or rifting it. For rifting it, I think you'd still need more than a casual glance from the surface of another planet to accurate place the rift. For teleporting, the new spell does have the range, but again you still need to know where you are teleporting to, and looking at a place from 200,000 miles away isn't enough to actually see it (a whole planet is an awfully big target). I am not saying impossible, but if I were GMing the game I wouldn't allow a player anymore of a chance than teleporting to a place they had "heard of", but not well described. If they studied it with a telescope really well I might up the odds a little, but nothing near what you'd get with a photograph or line of site teleporting.

[TechnoGothic]

I've stumbled across smatterings of info about Mars but what's on the Moon?

Are there any references to Lunar bases? Has the moon become lush and green like marvel's savage lands? What do you know about the great mother goddess of madness and the tides?
See ... Mutants in Orbit Sourcebook
What is on the moon?
See ... Mutants in Orbit Sourcebook
If a shifter looks at the moon can he teleport there?
YES, many times yes they can.

Now. You better have Full Enviromental Armor, Power Armor, or not need to breathe if you wish to travel to the moon, mars or other planets. just in case

[Natasha]

I can see ley line phasing it or rifting it. For rifting it, I think you'd still need more than a casual glance from the surface of another planet to accurate place the rift. For teleporting, the new spell does have the range, but again you still need to know where you are teleporting to, and looking at a place from 200,000 miles away isn't enough to actually see it (a whole planet is an awfully big target). I am not saying impossible, but if I were GMing the game I wouldn't allow a player anymore of a chance than teleporting to a place they had "heard of", but not well described. If they studied it with a telescope really well I might up the odds a little, but nothing near what you'd get with a photograph or line of site teleporting.

I was just thinking about those laser reflectors we and the Americans have placed on the Moon. If a scavenger were to get a hold of that data the hardware should not be difficult to rebuild, repair, or replace... might work as a substitute for knowing where you are going. Probably not but hey it was a brainstorm.

[Akashic Soldier]

I can see ley line phasing it or rifting it. For rifting it, I think you'd still need more than a casual glance from the surface of another planet to accurate place the rift. For teleporting, the new spell does have the range, but again you still need to know where you are teleporting to, and looking at a place from 200,000 miles away isn't enough to actually see it (a whole planet is an awfully big target). I am not saying impossible, but if I were GMing the game I wouldn't allow a player anymore of a chance than teleporting to a place they had "heard of", but not well described. If they studied it with a telescope really well I might up the odds a little, but nothing near what you'd get with a photograph or line of site teleporting.

I was just thinking about those laser reflectors we and the Americans have placed on the Moon. If a scavenger were to get a hold of that data the hardware should not be difficult to rebuild, repair, or replace... might work as a substitute for knowing where you are going. Probably not but hey it was a brainstorm.

Resorceful!! I like it! You're exactly the kind of person I look for in my PC team. Lol

I love the way this thread turned out. It's given me both direction and a lot to think about.

It just seems like with the condition (and dangers) of the world mans dream of returning to the moon and space would be a very prominent ideal in the lives of some people--and with the technology much more of a feasibility than back when NASA first launched.

Unfortunatly... those are probabily the folks who due in orbit... and then crash to earth and explode in a fireball along with their dreams. But a shifter... I just had to know.

Out of curiosity does anyone know what the deepest a rifts submersible can go or how hard it would be to rig one up for space travel using technology currently available to the public/black market. UFOs are just big submarines after all.

[taalismn]

Most modern submarines can only go down a thousand feet(more like 500-800 ft outside the big subs and specialized research vessels) or so before crushing, while modern Rifts subs and aquatic power armors typically can only go down 1-1.5 miles(in contrast, Splugorth diving suits can go 3-5 miles). TW armors reinforced with certain deep-diving spells can match the Splugorth/Kittani designs, and I'd allow for those same spells to apply to larger vessels, though with correspondingly higher PPE costs.

[Akashic Soldier]

Most modern submarines can only go down a thousand feet(more like 500-800 ft outside the big subs and specialized research vessels) or so before crushing, while modern Rifts subs and aquatic power armors typically can only go down 1-1.5 miles(in contrast, Splugorth diving suits can go 3-5 miles). TW armors reinforced with certain deep-diving spells can match the Splugorth/Kittani designs, and I'd allow for those same spells to apply to larger vessels, though with correspondingly higher PPE costs.

So adapting a submersible isn't any easier for Rifts engineers than our modern engineers. It would seem its better to specifically design spacecraft if you were to go to all that effort. Feel free to correct me if anyone here knows something I don't?

Or (and this might spark some debate) develop a spell that could allow for interplanetary flight and survival in space?
Not something I ever would have imagined--that magic would beat technology to the stars, but it could be an interesting approach to Rifts earth re-entering space.

[DhAkael]

So adapting a submersible isn't any easier for Rifts engineers than our modern engineers. It would seem its better to specifically design spacecraft if you were to go to all that effort. Feel free to correct me if anyone here knows something I don't?

Or (and this might spark some debate) develop a spell that could allow for interplanetary flight and survival in space?
Not something I ever would have imagined--that magic would beat technology to the stars, but it could be an interesting approach to Rifts earth re-entering space.

Fleets of the 3 galaxies has magic that allows for sub-orbital tansitions AND then interplanetary flight.
Also, Rifter #10 had a few okay 'space magic' spells.
Who's to say that the library of Lazlo's Mages guild doesn't have a few copies of said spells tucked away gathering dust...only waiting for the right person to translate the strange language and spell formulae

[Akashic Soldier]

So adapting a submersible isn't any easier for Rifts engineers than our modern engineers. It would seem its better to specifically design spacecraft if you were to go to all that effort. Feel free to correct me if anyone here knows something I don't?

Or (and this might spark some debate) develop a spell that could allow for interplanetary flight and survival in space?
Not something I ever would have imagined--that magic would beat technology to the stars, but it could be an interesting approach to Rifts earth re-entering space.

Fleets of the 3 galaxies has magic that allows for sub-orbital tansitions AND then interplanetary flight.
Also, Rifter #10 had a few okay 'space magic' spells.
Who's to say that the library of Lazlo's Mages guild doesn't have a few copies of said spells tucked away gathering dust...only waiting for the right person to translate the strange language and spell formulae

God I love Rifts.

[taalismn]

[God I love Rifts.

Restricted only by your imagination.
It's kinda like Douglas Adams' definition of how to fly: Throwing yourself at the ground and forgetting about falling at the last moment.

[azazel1024]

A sub has similar principals, but works pretty differently. A modern nuclear sub cracks water to get breathable air. There is little in the way of actual on board air storage when diving as it is made in situ. So you'd run out of air quickly in a sub in space. Next, subs are designed to withstand massive pressures, not vaccum. I certainly don't know that it will, but likely you'd be springing all kinds of air leaks as pressure is 14.7psi in the WRONG direction on seals and valves.

There is also the issue of propulsion. Frankly you are better off just building a spaceship. A lot of engineering principals for life support and maintaining a sealed atmosphere are the same, but the construction is vastly different.

[glitterboy2098]

the problems with adapting a submarine to space:
Drive: submarines use propellers or pump-jets to move. these require a liquid environment. space is a vacuum. you'd have to mount a new drive system.

Power: submarines rely on either internal combustion engines drawing outside air and batteries, or nuclear power. nuclear powered subs get rid of their waste heat by circulating outside water over the heat exchangers. in a vacuum, the ICE-battery combo can't draw on outside air, and nuclear powerplants have to fitted with large radiators to manage heat.

internal spaces: subs are designed with the assumptions that there is a defined 'down'. many of their systems are designed to work with gravity for best result, and crew spaces are not designed for freefall. all of these internals would need to be replaced for use as a space ship.

pressure: submarines are designed to keep pressure out. they maintain a one atmosphere environment internally but are designed to withstand multiple atmospheres on the outside. they are not so good with keeping pressure in. a space ship has to retain a one atmosphere internal environment, while dealing with a zero pressure enviroment outside. the engineering required to do so is different from that to withstand high exterior pressure. this means you'd have to completely rebuild the hull and ship structure.

while submarines have given space travel a number of developments (life support, studies of long term deployments in enclosed spaces, etc), submarines are not good choices for space ships. refitting a sub to be a space ship would basically involved stripping it down to individual parts and rebuilding it completely. it would generally be easier to just uild a purpose built hull. you can always make it look like a submarine if you want (like the DY-100 from trek or the Leif Ericson model kit)

[TechnoGothic]

Would be funny if most people believed the moon was made out of cheese once again. LOL.

[taalismn]

Would be funny if most people believed the moon was made out of cheese once again. LOL.

Somewhere, in an alternate universe, there IS a Moon made out of cheese.

But a bad scenario would be if a giant and VERY hungry critter came through a Rift that essentially treated lunar rock like it was cheese and started digging in...

[X'Zanthar]

Would be funny if most people believed the moon was made out of cheese once again. LOL.

Thats funny, one of our ATB games had a rat character who started a cult based off a TV show (i.e. cartoon) showing the moon IS made of cheese. He was all into finding a way up there. Sadly that game died.

[G]

I was thinking the same thing while reading the ARCHIE 7 description.

There are all sorts of magic using empires in space so its doable.

A shifter can generally open a rift to somewhere with a nexus, which other planets have...so getting there shouldn't be a problem. I'd say you should put up an immune to energy spell before stepping through, an the account of being blasted by a satellite laser is bad. Sustain for a 12 PPE will cover most of your needs..except heat & transportation I suppose...and there are other spells and minions.

..but what it boils down too is I'd rather travel to phase world or many other places...what does space around earth have for a shifter? no new spells or minions. Knowing what we know, all RIFTS earth space really has is one PBC for a GB...which while nice isn't all that interesting for to most shifters.

There are more fun places to visit.

[Shark_Force]

now i'm just envisioning someone in the orbital community realising some day that the only reason their blockade of earth is actually working is not that it's unbreakable... it's that there's lots of people who could break it, but don't care enough to bother doing so

[Nightmask]

I was thinking the same thing while reading the ARCHIE 7 description.

There are all sorts of magic using empires in space so its doable.

A shifter can generally open a rift to somewhere with a nexus, which other planets have...so getting there shouldn't be a problem. I'd say you should put up an immune to energy spell before stepping through, an the account of being blasted by a satellite laser is bad. Sustain for a 12 PPE will cover most of your needs..except heat & transportation I suppose...and there are other spells and minions.

..but what it boils down too is I'd rather travel to phase world or many other places...what does space around earth have for a shifter? no new spells or minions. Knowing what we know, all RIFTS earth space really has is one PBC for a GB...which while nice isn't all that interesting for to most shifters.

There are more fun places to visit.

Where do you arrive at the idea that there are any magic-using empires in space let alone many? The worlds of Phase World setting are in a different universe and the only space-empire seen canonically in Rifts Earth is a tech-based empire not a magic-based empire. Where there are ley lines on the moon and mars (and perhaps elsewhere) and random rifts neither planet has mages on it let alone a magical empire. The best you can speak of is the occasional spellcaster that got rifted there rather than any active, empire-building effort.

[azazel1024]

And the Canon/expanded Rifts space setting, none of those empires use magic to the best of my knowledge (Arkhons and Kithians).

Only mages in orbit were accidently rifted there, and there is significantly less magical activity and ley lines than on Earth, and the only nexus on the moon is actively guarded. My guess is of the couple of hundred thousand people in orbit/moon there probably isn't more than a dozen magic users and they very well may be hiding their nature as magic use seems like the kind of thing the orbital community wouldn't cotton to.

[Nightmask]

And the Canon/expanded Rifts space setting, none of those empires use magic to the best of my knowledge (Arkhons and Kithians).

Only mages in orbit were accidently rifted there, and there is significantly less magical activity and ley lines than on Earth, and the only nexus on the moon is actively guarded. My guess is of the couple of hundred thousand people in orbit/moon there probably isn't more than a dozen magic users and they very well may be hiding their nature as magic use seems like the kind of thing the orbital community wouldn't cotton to.

Unless they've done a revised edition the moon at least says that Magic is most definitely not known by the population. They're much like Free Quebec or the CS, dangerously isolationist and xenophobic and simply no chance of learning magic or having anyone want to learn magic if it was available. If there are mages running around elsewhere they'd be wisely concealing it rather than make themselves targets. A water warlock for example being able to conjure water from nothing would be at risk of enslavement for just that reason alone given how important water is.

[taalismn]

And the Canon/expanded Rifts space setting, none of those empires use magic to the best of my knowledge (Arkhons and Kithians).

Only mages in orbit were accidently rifted there, and there is significantly less magical activity and ley lines than on Earth, and the only nexus on the moon is actively guarded. My guess is of the couple of hundred thousand people in orbit/moon there probably isn't more than a dozen magic users and they very well may be hiding their nature as magic use seems like the kind of thing the orbital community wouldn't cotton to.

Unless they've done a revised edition the moon at least says that Magic is most definitely not known by the population. They're much like Free Quebec or the CS, dangerously isolationist and xenophobic and simply no chance of learning magic or having anyone want to learn magic if it was available. If there are mages running around elsewhere they'd be wisely concealing it rather than make themselves targets. A water warlock for example being able to conjure water from nothing would be at risk of enslavement for just that reason alone given how important water is.

Air Warlocks would be similarly strategic assets if they were identified. Any sort of 'creation' magic that apparently creates something from nothing, or recycles spent materials into fresh new usable forms would be also much sought after by the various Orbital factions.

[G]

I was referring to the phase world setting...it doesn't matter if they are in another dimension or far away to me.

[Nightmask]

I was referring to the phase world setting...it doesn't matter if they are in another dimension or far away to me.

It should, since being in another dimension makes them completely irrelevant when discussing the dimension that contains Rifts Earth. No matter how great your space fleet if it can't fly to Earth it doesn't count, and dimension travel isn't space travel.

[Kagashi]

Outcast station is the only station that mentions the possibility of magic users that wouldnt come from outside the solar system. It says "magic is generally not known" under the OCC section (emphasis mine), which means there is at least ONE person on that station who has unlocked the secrets of magic, but there is no mention as to what practice it is or how he/she did it. It also does not mention for the hundreds of independent colonies of their magic levels, but I suspect that some level exists in that community as well. We know Freedom, Yuro, and Laikta stations and the CAN Republic do NOT know magic what-so-ever. If the major societies do not know it, good chance most of the independents do not as well, at least not on a grand scale.

To me, it makes sense for it to be Air Warlock, Shifting, Temporal, or Space Magic; or even something as basic as something similar to a Blue Line Wizard but with space-based magic spells. It stands to reason that in a hostile environment, the poorer communities that do not have access to technology will find a way to survive, and some may have developed some magic. This is a common theme in both Rifts and Chaos Earth. With the addition of Chaos Earth at our disposal, I do not see why magic could not have been developed over roughly the same time in space as it was on Earth. Parallel advancements among non-communicating societies happens all the time (for example, most ancient societies developed the bow and arrow in some form without the benefit of learning from another society).

The book was written for the 99 PA setting, so 10 years later, that one person may have taught a few people how to do it by now. Lets say 10 students a year, there would be as least 100 magic users in the space community by now (assuming that one person has even begun to teach). Hardly an empire, but magic does exist. Aftermath does not mention anything on the topic, so I must speculate. Its possible there is still only one magic user in all of Rifts Space.

There are however plenty of outside influences to introduce magic to Rifts Space in the past 10 years. 1) although the killer satellites and the orbital communities attempt to kill anything that comes from the planet, there is no way they have been 100% successful (especially with the level of tech they have and the level of power creep on Rifts Earth since 99 PA). Something could have gotten through. 2) Space faring fleets, like the Splugorth, may have been introduced to the environment. We now know that the Splugorth have suppression fleets thanks to Fleets of the 3 Galaxies which was printed after Aftermath. Although it does not state that Splynn has access to these ships, we can assume that he does since he is one of the more powerful Splugorth. Plus we know he utilizes magic. Whats to stop Splynn from attempting to ferry goods and troops via ship and inadvertently spread magic to the communities? 3) Then there are dimensional travelers, like Temporal Raiders and the like who can not only pop in where ever they want, but be prepared for the vacuum of space as well. Aftermath specifically states that dimensional raiders get through and are a threat.

But that last paragraph is mostly speculation on my part, few canon references can really tie them down. Still, it is possible for this to still be part of Rifts Space in 109 PA.

[Nightmask]

Outcast station is the only station that mentions the possibility of magic users that wouldnt come from outside the solar system. It says "magic is generally not known" under the OCC section (emphasis mine), which means there is at least ONE person on that station who has unlocked the secrets of magic, but there is no mention as to what practice it is or how he/she did it. It also does not mention for the hundreds of independent colonies of their magic levels, but I suspect that some level exists in that community as well. We know Freedom, Yuro, and Laikta stations and the CAN Republic do NOT know magic what-so-ever. If the major societies do not know it, good chance most of the independents do not as well, at least not on a grand scale.

To me, it makes sense for it to be Air Warlock, Shifting, Temporal, or Space Magic; or even something as basic as something similar to a Blue Line Wizard but with space-based magic spells. It stands to reason that in a hostile environment, the poorer communities that do not have access to technology will find a way to survive, and some may have developed some magic. This is a common theme in both Rifts and Chaos Earth. With the addition of Chaos Earth at our disposal, I do not see why magic could not have been developed over roughly the same time in space as it was on Earth. Parallel advancements among non-communicating societies happens all the time (for example, most ancient societies developed the bow and arrow in some form without the benefit of learning from another society).

The book was written for the 99 PA setting, so 10 years later, that one person may have taught a few people how to do it by now. Lets say 10 students a year, there would be as least 100 magic users in the space community by now (assuming that one person has even begun to teach). Hardly an empire, but magic does exist. Aftermath does not mention anything on the topic, so I must speculate. Its possible there is still only one magic user in all of Rifts Space.

There are however plenty of outside influences to introduce magic to Rifts Space in the past 10 years. 1) although the killer satellites and the orbital communities attempt to kill anything that comes from the planet, there is no way they have been 100% successful (especially with the level of tech they have and the level of power creep on Rifts Earth since 99 PA). Something could have gotten through. 2) Space faring fleets, like the Splugorth, may have been introduced to the environment. We now know that the Splugorth have suppression fleets thanks to Fleets of the 3 Galaxies which was printed after Aftermath. Although it does not state that Splynn has access to these ships, we can assume that he does since he is one of the more powerful Splugorth. Plus we know he utilizes magic. Whats to stop Splynn from attempting to ferry goods and troops via ship and inadvertently spread magic to the communities? 3) Then there are dimensional travelers, like Temporal Raiders and the like who can not only pop in where ever they want, but be prepared for the vacuum of space as well. Aftermath specifically states that dimensional raiders get through and are a threat.

But that last paragraph is mostly speculation on my part, few canon references can really tie them down. Still, it is possible for this to still be part of Rifts Space in 109 PA.

Rifts: Space should have better tech than we see. They're supposed to be the product of the Golden Age of Man, when technologies like the Glitter Boy, Crazy, and Juicer originated. They didn't fall back to barbarity (they couldn't and survive after all), and given they never lost any technologies (we know the Moon has the technology to create a neural intelligence like ARCHIE-3, and the machine intelligence like ARCHIE-7 and Freedom Station produces Glitter Boys) they should have continued to advance at least some given the condition that they're in. They certainly shouldn't have less educated versions of things like Rogue Scientists and instead should have better educated OCC, perhaps even approximating the OCC as seen in N&SS. The people on Earth, even Triax, should be behind them. Only places like the tech cities of Japan that are also pre-Rifts in origin can reasonably compare.

As far as Atlantis goes, we know its ruler just isn't particularly interested in conquering the planet or space around it. He's content watching things and running betting pools on the various conflicts going on and using it as a nice little trandsimensional crossroads, like his own little Phase World. Whether or not it has ships that could be brought in and go after the space communities isn't much of a concern as it just isn't interested. If it were going to go conquering it would go after the planet since it's the nexus not the Moon or Mars or the other planets (wonder if Venus might also have a few ley lines active now, maybe it's being slowly turned from a dead to living world like Mars).

[Kagashi]

Rifts: Space should have better tech than we see. They're supposed to be the product of the Golden Age of Man, when technologies like the Glitter Boy, Crazy, and Juicer originated. They didn't fall back to barbarity (they couldn't and survive after all), and given they never lost any technologies (we know the Moon has the technology to create a neural intelligence like ARCHIE-3, and the machine intelligence like ARCHIE-7 and Freedom Station produces Glitter Boys) they should have continued to advance at least some given the condition that they're in. They certainly shouldn't have less educated versions of things like Rogue Scientists and instead should have better educated OCC, perhaps even approximating the OCC as seen in N&SS. The people on Earth, even Triax, should be behind them. Only places like the tech cities of Japan that are also pre-Rifts in origin can reasonably compare.

Very true. Id love to see a Rifts Space source book that not only brings space to the level it should be at based off of power creep on the planet, plus address things like magic use in the space community. Id love to see specific space capitol ships (heck...have the communities explored the solar system beyond Mars? Doesnt say.) Id also expect NEMA equivalent tech like Space SAMAS or Space versions of the Semper Fi power armors. Some fighter aircraft would be nice too. Id like to know the role of the Naruni, Splugorth, Arkons, Mechanoids, and Temporal Raiders are in Rifts Space (if any...at least mention them). Id also expect the CAN Republic to have some cool tech, like personal forcefields or something akin to phase tech (not saying give them phase tech specifically...but something equally as unique and cool).

As far as Atlantis goes, we know its ruler just isn't particularly interested in conquering the planet or space around it. He's content watching things and running betting pools on the various conflicts going on and using it as a nice little trandsimensional crossroads, like his own little Phase World. Whether or not it has ships that could be brought in and go after the space communities isn't much of a concern as it just isn't interested. If it were going to go conquering it would go after the planet since it's the nexus not the Moon or Mars or the other planets (wonder if Venus might also have a few ley lines active now, maybe it's being slowly turned from a dead to living world like Mars).

Yeah, I know, just saying the possibility exists.

As far as Venus...I hadnt really thought about that before. I wonder if the counter rotating axis of Venus would have different effects on ley lines than it does on Earth. Perhaps it produces an extraordinary amount of PPE or something? Might be cool for that to be a write up in Rifts Space as well.

[Nightmask]

Rifts: Space should have better tech than we see. They're supposed to be the product of the Golden Age of Man, when technologies like the Glitter Boy, Crazy, and Juicer originated. They didn't fall back to barbarity (they couldn't and survive after all), and given they never lost any technologies (we know the Moon has the technology to create a neural intelligence like ARCHIE-3, and the machine intelligence like ARCHIE-7 and Freedom Station produces Glitter Boys) they should have continued to advance at least some given the condition that they're in. They certainly shouldn't have less educated versions of things like Rogue Scientists and instead should have better educated OCC, perhaps even approximating the OCC as seen in N&SS. The people on Earth, even Triax, should be behind them. Only places like the tech cities of Japan that are also pre-Rifts in origin can reasonably compare.

Very true. Id love to see a Rifts Space source book that not only brings space to the level it should be at based off of power creep on the planet, plus address things like magic use in the space community. Id love to see specific space capitol ships (heck...have the communities explored the solar system beyond Mars? Doesnt say.) Id also expect NEMA equivalent tech like Space SAMAS or Space versions of the Semper Fi power armors. Some fighter aircraft would be nice too. Id like to know the role of the Naruni, Splugorth, Arkons, Mechanoids, and Temporal Raiders are in Rifts Space (if any...at least mention them). Id also expect the CAN Republic to have some cool tech, like personal forcefields or something akin to phase tech (not saying give them phase tech specifically...but something equally as unique and cool).

I'm fine with the space community not having magic, no reason they should have it. More reason for mutant superhumans and psychics than for magic. Only the Moon has any ley line activity at all (leaving out Mars as it has no human population currently) and it's far from any inhabited areas and constantly monitored to kill anything that steps out of the nexus when it rifts. I imagine an upgraded version of the SAMAS wouldn't be surprising since it's also a pre-Rifts design like the Glitter Boy, questionable about them having force field technology but having successfully acquired Arkon technology and reverse-engineered it to add into newer designs I could see. You actually don't really want it to be 'Rifts in Space' because it actually doesn't fit the setting when they haven't even any ley lines to justify triggering spontaneous magical abilities and no native magic users to have taught anyone prior to or after the Cataclym.

As far as Atlantis goes, we know its ruler just isn't particularly interested in conquering the planet or space around it. He's content watching things and running betting pools on the various conflicts going on and using it as a nice little trandsimensional crossroads, like his own little Phase World. Whether or not it has ships that could be brought in and go after the space communities isn't much of a concern as it just isn't interested. If it were going to go conquering it would go after the planet since it's the nexus not the Moon or Mars or the other planets (wonder if Venus might also have a few ley lines active now, maybe it's being slowly turned from a dead to living world like Mars).

Yeah, I know, just saying the possibility exists.

As far as Venus...I hadnt really thought about that before. I wonder if the counter rotating axis of Venus would have different effects on ley lines than it does on Earth. Perhaps it produces an extraordinary amount of PPE or something? Might be cool for that to be a write up in Rifts Space as well.

I doubt rotation matters to rift activity and ley line formation, seems more often that amount or lack thereof of PPE-generating life that counts and cosmic alignments. Plus Venus hardly has a chance of dynamo activity when it's day is longer than its year and the core's only running on residual magnetism. But given Mars saw re-activated ley lines due to the initial wave of PPE unleashed by Earth's cataclysm having Ley lines restart on other planets seems quite reasonable and Venus had a good shot at it as it had a good chance at having had primitive life on it before it went runaway greenhouse if not more. Maybe even an ancient race restored to life and eager to expand to a world less damaged by time.

[Dunia]

I've stumbled across smatterings of info about Mars but what's on the Moon?

Are there any references to Lunar bases? Has the moon become lush and green like marvel's savage lands? What do you know about the great mother goddess of madness and the tides?

What is on the moon?

If a shifter looks at the moon can he teleport there?

Welcome to the wonderful world of Palladium Books, where you must buy a totally new RPG mainbook to get information to the Main book you already have.

[Akashic Soldier]

Maybe even an ancient race restored to life and eager to expand to a world less damaged by time.

If this was a classic 1970-80's anime series (you know when they still put some thought into the plots beyond "will this sell to fanboys?") Venus would be home to the Vineshans and would be a vast alien empire (likely ruled by somekind of obessive royalty) that had been dormant for the last several thousand years but were recently reawoken by the massive flux of cosmic energy that washed over the universe when Earth's leylines reactivated. They've only recently awakened because it took a while for the energy wave that flowed through space to collide with Venus. Their world would be barely habitable and as a result they would be required to set out and conqure Earth. They likely would not let their "enemy" know the movitvation for their attack was desperation and a cultural xenaphobia would prevent them from intergrating with Rifts Earth. In their minds (mad as it might seem to you or I) the only hope for their survial is to eliminate all life on Rifts Earth and settle the Neo Vineshan Empire.

Then the PC's would either find out their situation and come up with a solution--or find out their situation and blast them into space dust. Playing all that out is half the fun. Though there should be at least one rogue princess and one he/she super villian. Nothing says diabolical alien master race like a transgender circus act general commanding vast robot legions.

Oh, and there's a good chance all their mecha would look like giant high-tech robot-beasts.

[Dr Megaverse]

This may have been mentioned already but I believe the Splugorth make a TW device (armor or staff? Can't remember) that is specifically designed for exploring new Rifts which might lead to vacuum. It has enhancements for radiation, vacuum, heat, etc. Maybe it's in WB 2?

[Nightmask]

This may have been mentioned already but I believe the Splugorth make a TW device (armor or staff? Can't remember) that is specifically designed for exploring new Rifts which might lead to vacuum. It has enhancements for radiation, vacuum, heat, etc. Maybe it's in WB 2?

The Splugorth do have such an item, not sure which book it's in either but they definitely have one. Frankly it's strange how so far we only see the Splugorth having such an item as you'd think something like that would be quite popular and someone else would have created their own version either independently (most likely) or after having heard of or seen the Splugorth version. The Protection From Space spell from the Aliens Unlimited: Galaxy Guide alone protects against a lot of potential environmental problems including radiation and vacuum.

[Akashic Soldier]

Maybe other people use their Rift-sense powers and see vacuum and think "well this isnt worth it" and just don't bother checking it out. Where as the Splugoth are tenacious enough to push their expansion even into the emptiness of space or hostile environments. After all, its not like they care if thousands of human slaves die from exposure if just by chance they happen to find a rare and valuable ore to mine in the lingering void of space?

[Nightmask]

Maybe other people use their Rift-sense powers and see vacuum and think "well this isnt worth it" and just don't bother checking it out. Where as the Splugoth are tenacious enough to push their expansion even into the emptiness of space or hostile environments. After all, its not like they care if thousands of human slaves die from exposure if just by chance they happen to find a rare and valuable ore to mine in the lingering void of space?

Well the staff's got plenty of value to it beyond letting you survive in a vacuum and go through random rifts and survive on the other side (depending on just how lethal the environment might be, walking into a volcano you're probably not going to survive no matter what the staff does for you). The idea of a quick protective item that lets you survive in dangerous environments is such you should see many variations on it. After all that staff's just as great letting you survive in Antarctica after your ship gets shot down in it as it is helping you walk through a rift and survive ending up in space (at least while the spells last). Something like the environmental force field belts seen in the old animated Star Trek for example, useful when things go wrong.

[Dr Megaverse]

Ha! Found it! Eylor Exploration Staff, WB 21 pg 147. Some of the features include Impervious to Radiation, Vacuum, Ocean Depths, Energy, Fire, Cold, Poison, Breathe Without Air and Invincible Armor. As long as you've got a way home, sounds like this baby might do the trick!

[azazel1024]

Maybe other people use their Rift-sense powers and see vacuum and think "well this isnt worth it" and just don't bother checking it out. Where as the Splugoth are tenacious enough to push their expansion even into the emptiness of space or hostile environments. After all, its not like they care if thousands of human slaves die from exposure if just by chance they happen to find a rare and valuable ore to mine in the lingering void of space?

Meh, the splugorth are more about slave races and trade than anything. Doesn't mean they don't exploit resources, but they also aren't described as being great explorers. I doubt the splugorth would look at the moon and even spend half a second considering exploiting it.

[Akashic Soldier]

Meh, the splugorth are more about slave races and trade than anything. Doesn't mean they don't exploit resources, but they also aren't described as being great explorers. I doubt the splugorth would look at the moon and even spend half a second considering exploiting it.

I just presumed as uncaring alien intelligences that the space between the stars would be just as valuable to them as the gnashing of teeth and pleasant screams of their worker force?

(Are there extra Forum Points for making multiple Lovecraft references in a single post?)

[Grell]

Meh, the splugorth are more about slave races and trade than anything. Doesn't mean they don't exploit resources, but they also aren't described as being great explorers. I doubt the splugorth would look at the moon and even spend half a second considering exploiting it.

I just presumed as uncaring alien intelligences that the space between the stars would be just as valuable to them as the gnashing of teeth and pleasant screams of their worker force?

(Are there extra Forum Points for making multiple Lovecraft references in a single post?)

Only if you made references to their interstellar voyages through the ether from places outside the spheres.

[X'Zanthar]

Maybe other people use their Rift-sense powers and see vacuum and think "well this isnt worth it" and just don't bother checking it out. Where as the Splugoth are tenacious enough to push their expansion even into the emptiness of space or hostile environments. After all, its not like they care if thousands of human slaves die from exposure if just by chance they happen to find a rare and valuable ore to mine in the lingering void of space?

Meh, the splugorth are more about slave races and trade than anything. Doesn't mean they don't exploit resources, but they also aren't described as being great explorers. I doubt the splugorth would look at the moon and even spend half a second considering exploiting it.

They personally, no. But they have alot of minions and resources, who can go out and get killed exploring, or find something new to exploit. While I have not read all the books, I do know they must aquire exotic slave races from places, like the green elves from south America, or the Eylor planet, kittani, kidani, etc. All I think came from some sploogy looking around and found something nice. I was told there was some new symbiotes available from some where, they must get those exploring.

[azazel1024]

Its all about ROI for them. I have no doubt they do some limited exploring, but I bet they spend a lot more time on HumInt (or D-BeeInt as the case may be). They hear a rumor about something and go looking.

With something like the moon, they might have tried putting a group through a rift to the nexus, but as soon as they got blasted in to oblivion I doubt they tried again. The Splugorth should have sufficient technology to be able to ascertain that there is some kind of colony on the moon still, but they should also have at least limited pre-rifts information as well a general understanding of science of astrophysics to know that Earth's moon isn't going to be some great treasure trove of resources or likely to have unique features that make it valuable to the Slugorth. On top of that they can easily gauge its magical potential from Earth, and it is pretty darned poor in magic.

So on the whole, and from a distance it wouldn't seem to hold much value, so if they even attempted any kind of recon by magic and it failed, I doubt they'd pour good money after bad. Slaves are expendable, but it still costs SOMETHING to expend them.

If the rift was to some kind of new dimension or unexplored planet I could see a quick destruction of their recon force intreguing the splugorth as to why someone is so strongly defending a nexus/rift, but with the Moon they have at least a good basic grasp of the likely resources available and can judge the magical potential from a distance, so it isn't a complete unknown.

[Kagashi]

I'm fine with the space community not having magic, no reason they should have it. More reason for mutant superhumans and psychics than for magic. Only the Moon has any ley line activity at all (leaving out Mars as it has no human population currently) and it's far from any inhabited areas and constantly monitored to kill anything that steps out of the nexus when it rifts. I imagine an upgraded version of the SAMAS wouldn't be surprising since it's also a pre-Rifts design like the Glitter Boy, questionable about them having force field technology but having successfully acquired Arkon technology and reverse-engineered it to add into newer designs I could see. You actually don't really want it to be 'Rifts in Space' because it actually doesn't fit the setting when they haven't even any ley lines to justify triggering spontaneous magical abilities and no native magic users to have taught anyone prior to or after the Cataclym.

They already do have magic, not that it was developed between 101 PA (I erroneously said 99 PA in a previous post) and now. Magic does exist and is canon in Mutants in Orbit, its just not generally known to many people. Outcast station proves there are spell slingers out there already, and its possible that they exist among the independents as well. We also know that Outcast station has influences from Palladium Fantasy seeing that a portion of the population speaks Gobbley, something that came to after the coming of the Rifts. No reason to assume that other aspects have not trickled into the community as well. Both very well could have been introduced by the Dimensional Raiders that are a problem described in Aftermath.

There are plenty of good reasons to have magic, especially in an environment that is extremely hostile and where people are simply trying to survive with little to no resources at their disposal. The ability to create breathable air or drinkable water out of thin air could make you extremely powerful and rich in this setting. There are plenty of ways to acquire magic without a teacher and occur naturally as well. Warlocks, for example, are empowered by an elemental projecting their power through the human. Likewise, plenty of people have "the gift" and become Mystics, unlocking magic abilities at certain plateaus of experience in their lives. Plus, Fleets of the Three Galaxies has magic specifically geared to the space setting now.

And Ley Lines do exist in space. The Graveyard sits on a Nexus Point, thus two intersecting ley lines. Again, the elements are there, they are just not as abundant as the Earth below.

The problem with Rifts Space and magic is, Mutants in Orbit was written before the setting of Rifts really was solidified and there is a lot of obvious retconning that happened. For example, why would the orbital communities call the unit a "Glitter Boy"? Thats a post-Rifts term created on Earth. The Orbital Communities should be calling them "Chromian Guardsmen MK whatever" because they existed prior to the Flash. But Chaos Earth didnt exist when they wrote MiO, thus they are reported as "Glitter Boys". Likewise, SAMAS, we all know as being pre-Rifts constructs from Rifts Japan and Chaos Earth, would most likely be part of the Orbital Communities as well in some form, but that secret was not revealed to the players till Rifts Japan was printed, thus the Communities appear to not have them. The same would be true for magic in Rifts Space. Magic, as it was written in Rifts Main Book in the 1990s, was geared more for Earth-based operations because it was mostly borrowed from Palladium Fantasy. Summoning a storm in space just does not make sense, thus they left the door open, but didnt talk about it much for MiO. But now, the Palladium System has expanded magic with specific spells that deal exclusively with space like the Space Magic and Temporal Spells in Fleets of the 3 Galaxies. Now that we have specific magic to associate to the seemingly ambiguous "Magic is generally not known" line, we can expand the setting of Rifts Space.

But I do think the authors need to be careful. I believe it to be obvious that while magic exists, it was intended to be rare in the environment. Only a very small percentage should have these abilities and the focus should be on tech, mutants, psionics, and super abilities for the rest of the communities. I am still in favor for an expanded source book. When Kevin spoke of Rifts Space, I got excited. Of course, the project was shelved...

[Nightmask]

I'm fine with the space community not having magic, no reason they should have it. More reason for mutant superhumans and psychics than for magic. Only the Moon has any ley line activity at all (leaving out Mars as it has no human population currently) and it's far from any inhabited areas and constantly monitored to kill anything that steps out of the nexus when it rifts. I imagine an upgraded version of the SAMAS wouldn't be surprising since it's also a pre-Rifts design like the Glitter Boy, questionable about them having force field technology but having successfully acquired Arkon technology and reverse-engineered it to add into newer designs I could see. You actually don't really want it to be 'Rifts in Space' because it actually doesn't fit the setting when they haven't even any ley lines to justify triggering spontaneous magical abilities and no native magic users to have taught anyone prior to or after the Cataclym.

They already do have magic, not that it was developed between 101 PA (I erroneously said 99 PA in a previous post) and now. Magic does exist and is canon in Mutants in Orbit, its just not generally known to many people. Outcast station proves there are spell slingers out there already, and its possible that they exist among the independents as well. We also know that Outcast station has influences from Palladium Fantasy seeing that a portion of the population speaks Gobbley, something that came to after the coming of the Rifts. No reason to assume that other aspects have not trickled into the community as well. Both very well could have been introduced by the Dimensional Raiders that are a problem described in Aftermath.

Could have been can be used to justify anything, when all we do know is that magic is so low that it's statistically insignificant and if you asked anyone about it they'd look at you like you were crazy talking about such fanciful things in such a deadly serious environment. It's definitely not something you're going to see people making plans about whether to use it or defend against it.

There are plenty of good reasons to have magic, especially in an environment that is extremely hostile and where people are simply trying to survive with little to no resources at their disposal. The ability to create breathable air or drinkable water out of thin air could make you extremely powerful and rich in this setting. There are plenty of ways to acquire magic without a teacher and occur naturally as well. Warlocks, for example, are empowered by an elemental projecting their power through the human. Likewise, plenty of people have "the gift" and become Mystics, unlocking magic abilities at certain plateaus of experience in their lives. Plus, Fleets of the Three Galaxies has magic specifically geared to the space setting now.

Just because there's a good use for something doesn't mean that there's a good reason for it to exist. There's a good use for terraforming technology and anti-gravity but that doesn't mean that it has to be available or exist. Just because magic would be very useful in space therefor doesn't mean anyone should or has to know about it let alone how to work it.

And Ley Lines do exist in space. The Graveyard sits on a Nexus Point, thus two intersecting ley lines. Again, the elements are there, they are just not as abundant as the Earth below.

The Graveyard also has zero population, only crazy or desperate people head there because unlike the AtB version there's a certainty of supernatural monsters that can survive in space that are a lot worse to worry about than kill sats (since kill sats only eliminate your body they don't torture you for pleasure first or wreck your very soul in the process). Outside of the nexus on the moon and the ley lines on Mars the existence of space ley lines seems slim to none, and certainly none of the other space stations exist on or around them.

The problem with Rifts Space and magic is, Mutants in Orbit was written before the setting of Rifts really was solidified and there is a lot of obvious retconning that happened. For example, why would the orbital communities call the unit a "Glitter Boy"? Thats a post-Rifts term created on Earth. The Orbital Communities should be calling them "Chromian Guardsmen MK whatever" because they existed prior to the Flash. But Chaos Earth didnt exist when they wrote MiO, thus they are reported as "Glitter Boys". Likewise, SAMAS, we all know as being pre-Rifts constructs from Rifts Japan and Chaos Earth, would most likely be part of the Orbital Communities as well in some form, but that secret was not revealed to the players till Rifts Japan was printed, thus the Communities appear to not have them. The same would be true for magic in Rifts Space. Magic, as it was written in Rifts Main Book in the 1990s, was geared more for Earth-based operations because it was mostly borrowed from Palladium Fantasy. Summoning a storm in space just does not make sense, thus they left the door open, but didnt talk about it much for MiO. But now, the Palladium System has expanded magic with specific spells that deal exclusively with space like the Space Magic and Temporal Spells in Fleets of the 3 Galaxies. Now that we have specific magic to associate to the seemingly ambiguous "Magic is generally not known" line, we can expand the setting of Rifts Space.

But I do think the authors need to be careful. I believe it to be obvious that while magic exists, it was intended to be rare in the environment. Only a very small percentage should have these abilities and the focus should be on tech, mutants, psionics, and super abilities for the rest of the communities. I am still in favor for an expanded source book. When Kevin spoke of Rifts Space, I got excited. Of course, the project was shelved...

They could call them Glitter Boys because it's a slang term that eventually took over as the actual name for it. No particular reason why what happened on Earth couldn't have happened in Space to explain why both areas call them Glitter Boys. Even the Japanese call them Glitter Boys and they originate from before the great Cataclysm (or technically right when it occurred). Golden Age Japan called them Glitter Boys so apparently everyone did so.

I agree that the focus should be on technology, mutants, psionics, and super abilities. Magic should be rare enough even for a PC mage you'd have to have a good back story and have him trying to conceal his magic as something else. Only a self-destructive idiot would advertise his ability to protect you in space with a spell or create water from literally nothing.

[Akashic Soldier]

Its all about ROI for them. I have no doubt they do some limited exploring, but I bet they spend a lot more time on HumInt (or D-BeeInt as the case may be). They hear a rumor about something and go looking.

With something like the moon, they might have tried putting a group through a rift to the nexus, but as soon as they got blasted in to oblivion I doubt they tried again. The Splugorth should have sufficient technology to be able to ascertain that there is some kind of colony on the moon still, but they should also have at least limited pre-rifts information as well a general understanding of science of astrophysics to know that Earth's moon isn't going to be some great treasure trove of resources or likely to have unique features that make it valuable to the Slugorth. On top of that they can easily gauge its magical potential from Earth, and it is pretty darned poor in magic.

So on the whole, and from a distance it wouldn't seem to hold much value, so if they even attempted any kind of recon by magic and it failed, I doubt they'd pour good money after bad. Slaves are expendable, but it still costs SOMETHING to expend them.

If the rift was to some kind of new dimension or unexplored planet I could see a quick destruction of their recon force intreguing the splugorth as to why someone is so strongly defending a nexus/rift, but with the Moon they have at least a good basic grasp of the likely resources available and can judge the magical potential from a distance, so it isn't a complete unknown.

So its:

"Master Splynkth the expeditionary force to the Moon was completely eradicated by an unknown enemy using high-end weapons technology."
"Hmmm... very well. Cease all Lunar Operations."

or...

"Master Splynkth the expeditionary force to the Moon was completely eradicated by an unknown enemy using high-end laser technology."
"I do not tolerate failure Kitan-whelp." *splurt/dead minion noises* "What are they trying to hide from me? Congratulations Chancellor it looks as if you have finally earned a chance to prove your worth. Prepare your squadron for a full scale assault."

[azazel1024]

Possibly one of the two, but as I mentioned Splynkryth or at least a high level subordinate would have to know at least the very most basics of the fact that there is a lunar colony, magic is limited and the moon pre-rifts had few really important resources that wouldn't be easy enough to locate in any of a billion other planets or moons. So I think odds are they either wouldn't even bother attempting to rift to the nexus on the moon, or else if they did, they probably would just give up as too much investment to try to push their way through once they got beaten back initially.

The Splugorth tolerate the CS and a lot of other players on Rifts Earth. Granted, we know that is in part because mysterious other actors in the megaverse who don't seem to have a real presence on Rifts Earth would never stand for the Splugorth actually ruling the entire planet and the Splogy know this, so they don't try to take it all over (please).

[Dr Megaverse]

So its:

"Master Splynkth the expeditionary force to the Moon was completely eradicated by an unknown enemy using high-end weapons technology."
"Hmmm... very well. Cease all Lunar Operations."

or...

"Master Splynkth the expeditionary force to the Moon was completely eradicated by an unknown enemy using high-end laser technology."
"I do not tolerate failure Kitan-whelp." *splurt/dead minion noises* "What are they trying to hide from me? Congratulations Chancellor it looks as if you have finally earned a chance to prove your worth. Prepare your squadron for a full scale assault."

This. The Splugorth are Vader on speed, and don't suffer any perceived indignity (like resistance) lightly.

[Akashic Soldier]

Lol. Cool.

[azazel1024]

No they don't, but they also are extremely smart and calculating. Slaves and worse yet, warriors, conservators, equipment and high inquisitors all have a certain cost attached to them. Splyncryth is a rather cosmopolitan AI and has shown compromise and slithering lightly is sometimes the best option as it evidenced both by Atlantis and text within WB2 as well.

It would have to figure some of the basic economic costs, or at least a range, associated with what it would take to successfully break through and/or take over the moon based on the size of the scout group sent through and how easily they were repulsed or erradicated. He can easily way that against potential economic resources extracted from the moon and any intangible assets controlling the moon would grant him.

The answers to the last questions are few resources that are economically viable for extraction compared to existing accessible resources and little to no intangible assets.

[Akashic Soldier]

It is a giant, sprawling, underground metropolis that houses nearly 100,000 inhabitants and is the home of the Cyberworks Aerospace Network. The Level of technology is unsurpassed by any in the Zone or on Earth.

If this wouldn't make the moon valuable to the Splugoth -- what would?