(Rifts) Defining Actions: The Power Punch

[Bill]

HU2 is a little more clearly written on multiplying damage for critical strikes such as power punch.

Critical strikes do double damage. Combined critical strikes, like a natural 20 and a jump attack, do triple damage. Add the damage bonus to the roll before doubling or tripling damage. A natural unmodified 20 is always a critical strike.

Author's emphasis.

I typically resolve a single action per turn and have multi-action attacks and powers go off on the last one necessary. I will see if I can find some support for that interpretation, though I don't think this aspect of the rules is well defined.

[glitterboy2098]

I typically resolve a single action per turn and have multi-action attacks and powers go off on the last one necessary. I will see if I can find some support for that interpretation, though I don't think this aspect of the rules is well defined.

sadly it isn't defined, but that is a fairly common interpritation. especially now that casting magic spells can use up multiple attacks as well. what point is there to rules about disrupting spellcasting by attacking the caster during casting, if the spellcasting isn't spread out over several rounds of combat?

[ingexthefuryhunter1]

I see it as the person throwing the power punch has enough training to use his foot work to keep up with his target in such a way that he still can parry any incoming attacks as he uses the first action to scope out the opening to land the power punch. I also take into account the H2H being used, yes if the person is a man at arms he may be using Expert which is a grapple style fighter to me and the damage comes from his straight raw power of the punch. As with Martial arts it is the precision strike to the key point on the body that did the damage.

As for disrupting the power attack, yes I if the person attempting the power punch is struck I make them roll a d100 depending on the damage of the punch I use the result as a mental check to see if the hit was enough to knock the fire out the person as it where. In effect stopping there power punch.

[Bill]

I think, taken as a whole, allowing power attacks and other multi-attack options to be disrupted works with the other aspects of the melee subsystem. It forces players to plan their moves out a little bit and think strategically. If they don't want their opponent to evade the attack, they have to put it at a disadvantage using the knockdown options or work together as a team, having one player put the target in a hold so the other can smash it.

[Bill]

Body flip and sweep are both single action maneuvers.

[Bill]

There is no indication otherwise. Tripping/Leg Hook is another knockdown option available to martial artists at level 3.

[Prysus]

1) Exactly how much damage is dealt?

Greetings and Salutations. I'd say that it does double damage, then add in PS/HtH damage bonus. Maybe that's the mathematician in me, but there are several indicators to suggest this is the case. Despite Bill's earlier quote, his quote addresses "Critical Strikes." Jump Kicks do double damage. Jump Kicks are Critical Strikes. Critical Strikes do double damage. Power Punches do double damage. But this does NOT mean that a Power Punch is a Critical Strike any more than it means a Power Punch is a Jump Kick. His quote came from page 65 of HU2. Let's look at HU2 some more then, shall we?

Page 67: "Power Punch - does double dice damage +P.S. bonus damage (if any), but counts as two melee attacks."
--Notice how it says "double dice damage" then the "+P.S. bonus" after. Now, this could mean double both, potentially. But if you'd like, I can get into the placement of the plus and the space by forming a pattern in HU2 powers as being a separator.

Page 69: "The advantage of a jump kick is that it works as a critical strike ..."
--There is no such reference in the Power Punch section. Though now we'll get some contradiction.

Page 68: "Jump Kick - 3D6x2."
Page 69: "Jump Kick: 6D6 damage plus P.S. or hand to hand damage bonuses!
--Note how Bill's quote earlier said to add it before, then on page 69 Palladium just went out of the way to double the dice damage BEFORE the P.S. damage bonus.

OKay, now let's look back at R:UE ...

Page 345: "Power Punch: Does double damage, plus any other damage bonuses, but counts as two melee attacks."
--To me, that coma is important, because it shows a separate thought/section. That's not just math, but grammar too. But now we'll get a bit more confusing.

Page 345: "Punch: A normal human punch does 1D4 damage. A Karate style punch or chop does 2D4. A Power Punch does double damage. In all cases, include any P.S. attribute bonus (for P.S. 16 and higher) as well as any damage bonuses from a Hand to Hand Combat skill, or special powers."
--Now, the first two sentences we once again see them doubling the "dice" damage. The third sentences mentions how a Power Punch does double damage (reminding us). So far makes sense. Then it mentions "in all cases" to add in the other bonuses. While reading things in order and math makes me say that you need to double damage before adding in the other bonuses, something about the wording ("In all cases" as well as the "double damage") makes me think maybe (just maybe) you're supposed to add it first.

2) When does the punch occur?

This is never spelled out. Though I've always ruled it lands on the second attack (along with most other two action moves). In my games, a Power Punch CAN be interrupted. A simple punch normally won't do it though. The reason for this is while a spell can be disrupted by being hit, that's a matter of thought. With a power punch, the first action is putting the force and momentum into it. That physical force (even if the mind gets thrown off by a hit) will still come barreling forward. Attacks such as a trip or a flip takes the character off his feet though and disrupts that momentum. That's at least how I run things. Your mileage may vary.

Now, these rulings (1 and 2) do limit the usefulness of Power Punch, but doesn't quite make it pointless either. When dealing with Supernatural Strength a Power Punch doesn't always deal double damage. Sometimes it deals more than that (look at the various SNPS tables some time). In Rifts, with Robotic (or is it Augmented?) Strength it can be the ONLY way to inflict M.D. There's also the times of launching a surprise attack, or if you have a character making a straffing run (like a speedster with a turning radius) and you only get one swipe as they make their run, or if someone's broken into a full charge to close the distance giving you that time to prep, etc. While it's not something you'd use every combat, it does still have its purposes.

Note: In HU2, wrestlers get holds at level 1, MA at level 3, Expert at level 4, and Basic at level 5. While this shows how different the systems can be, I'm stating it here to show that in some settings (such as HU2, and even N&S) that holds can play a bigger role in the game.

Anyways, that's my take on things. Hope some of that helps. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Bill]

While it certainly seems like it could go either way, I don't see any advantage to not doubling the bonus damage as well. It's something that will generally make players happy and I don't think it will have a huge impact on game play.

[Damian Magecraft]

While it certainly seems like it could go either way, I don't see any advantage to not doubling the bonus damage as well. It's something that will generally make players happy and I don't think it will have a huge impact on game play.

no? my char has a normal PS of 50 (possible if unlikely) thats a +35 doubled is 70? and you do not see that as a huge impact?

[Bill]

I don't. If somebody has gone out of their way to build a character completely focused around ultimate strength and the power-punch as a maneuver, I think it's going to be a defining moment of the game for them to land that attack. I'd rather scale the opposition appropriately than disappoint the player by saying no.