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what is the canon answer to "HOW TO THROW A GRENADE" (I know how in RL, but what W.P. / skill etc. do you use in-game)?

Akashic Soldier wrote:W.P. Targeting covers all thrown weapons.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:WP Targeting will get you the throwing aspect of using grenades but for all other uses of them (throwing one is just a h2h strike roll if you have no WP bonuses) and skill knowledge about them the WP grenade in N&S is the Skill for you.

glitterboy2098 wrote:the big question for me is 'how far can you throw a grenade?" presumably this would be tied to one's P.S. attribute 'in real life'

Mercdog wrote:Well, going by the Targeting WP coupled with the Throwing rules under Weight and Movement in Dead Reign (it's all I have with me), I'd theorize maximum throwing range for a grenade (weight roughly equivalent to a Brick or Stone) to be 50 feet plus 1 foot per point of P.S..

- objects up to 0.45 grams add 0.3 metres per 1 P.S., i.e. a P.S. of 10 would add 3 metres to effective range
- objects between 0.45 grams and 4.5 kilos get half this added, i.e. 1.5 metres for a P.S. of 10

Hendrik wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:WP Targeting will get you the throwing aspect of using grenades but for all other uses of them (throwing one is just a h2h strike roll if you have no WP bonuses) and skill knowledge about them the WP grenade in N&S is the Skill for you.

Thank you, drewkitty! I did not think to look it up in N&S, although I now think along the lines that WP Targeting would be fine.

Come to think of it, and I know this may be seen as an errant thought, but do you or anyone else also think that maybe the athletic skill should help a bit? I mean, kids trained e.g. in baseball seem to have a better/keener throw than those of us not so trained. I guess I would give a baseball player a bonus for lobbing grenades.

Hendrik wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:the big question for me is 'how far can you throw a grenade?" presumably this would be tied to one's P.S. attribute 'in real life'

Mercdog wrote:Well, going by the Targeting WP coupled with the Throwing rules under Weight and Movement in Dead Reign (it's all I have with me), I'd theorize maximum throwing range for a grenade (weight roughly equivalent to a Brick or Stone) to be 50 feet plus 1 foot per point of P.S..

I am just now looking at the same rule segment in BtS (page 135 of BTS-II).

The modern fragmentation handgrenade (roundish / pineapple shape) weighs about 400 grams. The MK-2 grenade used by the US in the 2nd WW weighs in with 0.595 grams (1 lb. 5 ounces). The German model 24 Stielhandgranate (potato masher) looks more ungainly, but weighed the same 0.595 grams (1 lb. 5 ounces), but what looks ungainly effectively increased the range by a bit (50% according to the "ever wise" wikipedia).

According to Gary's U.S. Infantry Weapons Reference Guide the effective range of the MK-2 is 30 metres (100 feet) and about 40 metres (131 feet) for the more modern, lighter, US fragmentation grenade variants.

According to the "Weight and Movement" rules in the Strength attribute section of the BtS-II rules, range is calculated as follows:

- objects up to 0.45 grams add 0.3 metres per 1 P.S., i.e. a P.S. of 10 would add 10 metres to effective range- objects between 0.45 grams and 4.5 kilos get half this added, i.e. 5 metres for a P.S. of 10

As you, Mercdog, I have now looked at the W.P. targeting. Allow me to elaborate as I think there are 2 possible answers.

A grenade is made for throwing (check). Therefore, it gets a better range than the one for "ungainly objects not designed for throwing", like a frying pan, but at minimum it must be in the "stone / brick"-bracket, i.e. 50 feet (15.2 metres) (check). That is already an answer that would make me happy enough, i.e. the average Joe with a P.S. of 10 would be able to throw a WW II grenade about 20 metres, a lighter (simplified: modern) version about 30 metres.

However, as a grenade is well-shaped (made to be thrown), so it should as a rule / on average go farther than a brick that is not made to be thrown (however much some people may use them for exactly that), assuming two throwers of equal strength etc.

Now, let's go on because of that and because the good drewkitty pointed us to N&S let's go there. I have rumaged through that good book. The W.P. grenade (N&S p. 43; which as a W.P. by the way strikes me as superfluous) gives no information on range, but the equipment section features an "explosive grenade" and gives a range of 30 metres (100 feet) at a mere weight of 10 ounces (283 grams; N&S page 154). Let's forget about the peculiar light weight of that grenade, and just take the 30 metres as the basis, which also seems to be in keeping with realistic effective range numbers.

Then the range for Private Joe would be 40 metres (30+10) for a light grenade and 35 metres (30+5) for a heavier WW-II grenade. Both numbers I should like to say pretty much in keeping with the "real" numbers as found on Gary's page. For a potato masher I would increase the P.S. bonus on range by 50%, so Private Joe could throw that 37.5 metres.

Of course, guys with supernatural strength or even "just" above average P.S. could get that (good) bit farther.

Cheers
Hendrik

Beatmeclever wrote:Having thrown a grenade or two in my life, I'd just like to say here that it is not like throwing a baseball. You don't so much throw it as lob it. Greater accuracy and the ability to put it over enemy barriers vs. range. The baseball and sporting methods don't work. What Hendriks posted is closer than anything.

Mercdog wrote:Actually, it would be 3 meters.
Your math is a little off due to the metric conversion from feet, but I see where you're coming from. Well done Hendrik.

Beatmeclever wrote:Having thrown a grenade or two in my life, I'd just like to say here that it is not like throwing a baseball. You don't so much throw it as lob it. Greater accuracy and the ability to put it over enemy barriers vs. range. The baseball and sporting methods don't work. What Hendriks posted is closer than anything.

drewkitty wrote:I thought this would be a good spot to post the Baseball skill I had written a while back for N&S. However, that file has gotten corrupted in the past couple years or the newest OS upgrade does not read the file. *shrugs*

ATB2 has a baseball skill. It has a few different specializations in it.
Baseball (Pitcher): 60+4--67
+2 S pitching +1 @ L's 3, 6, 9, 12, 15
+20% throwing range

Beatmeclever wrote:Having thrown a grenade or two in my life, I'd just like to say here that it is not like throwing a baseball. You don't so much throw it as lob it. Greater accuracy and the ability to put it over enemy barriers vs. range. The baseball and sporting methods don't work. What Hendriks posted is closer than anything.

jedi078 wrote:The root of this problem is that there are too many WP's that cover too many weapons. For example a grenade launcher, rocket launcher, flamethrower and mortar do not have the same type of operation, hence they should all be separate WP's and not be lazily lumped together into WP Heavy Weapons.

Likewise as others have pointed out throwing hand grenade is nothing like throwing a dart, rock or ninja star. So Hand Grenades should have their own WP.

dragonfett wrote:I would say that throwing a grenade is more like throwing a rock, if anything. Now granted I have never thrown a grenade in my life (drat), however I feel for the purpose of game mechanics, it ought to be close enough to work.

jedi078 wrote:

dragonfett wrote:I would say that throwing a grenade is more like throwing a rock, if anything. Now granted I have never thrown a grenade in my life (drat), however I feel for the purpose of game mechanics, it ought to be close enough to work.

Actually you throw a grenade in such a manner where it will arc, ideally so it lands in an enemy foxhole, around a door/wall/corner etc etc.

Also if the rock bounces off a tree and flies back towards you or you drop it at your feet you don't have to worry about it blowing up.

dragonfett wrote:

jedi078 wrote:

dragonfett wrote:I would say that throwing a grenade is more like throwing a rock, if anything. Now granted I have never thrown a grenade in my life (drat), however I feel for the purpose of game mechanics, it ought to be close enough to work.

Actually you throw a grenade in such a manner where it will arc, ideally so it lands in an enemy foxhole, around a door/wall/corner etc etc.

Also if the rock bounces off a tree and flies back towards you or you drop it at your feet you don't have to worry about it blowing up.

That is true, but the motions are still the same. Either over hand or under hand.

dragonfett wrote:Does it really matter all that much though?