New Forumite - House Rules for Critique

[Hendrik]

Hi there, Schoonerhelm,

the following is without prejudice (I am prejudiced towards keeping the system mostly as it is, but I will take a step back and try to comment to my best ability):

Change D20 to 2D10

(1) Where is the penetrating advantage? I can see that it has its advantages with respect to thus enabling you to use the two dice to do other things than just a straight to-hit roll by basically giving the dice multiple functions. But the same could be achieved by rolling the D20 (to-hit) and e.g. an additional D10 for hit location if you want to disassociate hit locations from the D20 roll. That said, modifiers on the to-hit IMO achieve the same result.
(2) When does a critical hit/fail occur (what did I overlook)?

Skill System
I understand the basic advantage to change the D20 (to-hit, high roll) / D100 (skill check, low roll) dualism to a more uniform 2D10. However, what you do is essentially the same as the D20 unification effort. That is not a bad thing, but is that needed in Palladium? If you have to unify, why not keep D20 and D100 but make it so that e.g. high rolls win in both cases [high is good is more intuitive than high here, low there]? Or, why not use a D20 for to-hit and for skills (I think the 2D10 effort may be more rooted in the effort not to seem too D20-ish)?

Number of Skills
I share your opinion that some skills may be superfluous, but after the recent discussions on this forum on what should be revised I have re-read all the skills and now think the real number of skills that are completely superfluous and should be wrapped up into other skills is really comparably low. Can you make examples for which skills you would strike and into which other skill(s) you would collapse them?

That said, I think that some "superfluous" skills may only be superfluous to one gamer, but the next one will not want to live without them. There was a huge discussion on some actually wanting more skills. It is all a question of compromise and in the end the detail level one wants.

All this is not saying that your approach is "wrong", it is not. Simplifying skills for example is as such a good idea.

You would have to revise all OCCs etc to fit your new skill system and 2D10 matrix. That is a lot of work. As with any houserule I make I ask myself this: is the new rule (or rule amendment) a fun and worthy counterweight to what you stand to achieve by the changes you advocate?

Cheers
Hendrik

[Cinos]

I like at a glance.

As to Hendrik, the short of it being, the more dice you use, the less likely you are to hit an extreme and the more likely you are to hit average. For example, with 1D20, you are as likely to hit 10 as you are to hit 20 in a given roll, but with 2D10, you are less likely. It creates a bell curve where its safer to bet on actions and bonuses, rather than always tossing the dice, so to speak.

[Akashic Soldier]

I'll just stick to R:UE and R:GMG thanks. Its my experience that those people youre trying to impress don't actually know the rules or how they function in a practical manner and are just jumping on the band wagon. I am a very critical person and I happen to think that for the most part Palladium is the best blend of rules and cinematic play that is currently on the market. If I can get a half hour or so free I will type up why.

EDIT: The information below this line has been added since the previous post.

I'll start with combat as that is the easiest to quantify.

1.) Roll Initiative

Every game has an initiative system but I do like Palladium's for a few important reasons. Firstly, unlike in a lot of other games initiative bonuses are rare (I will go into bonuses later in this post). Getting initiative bonuses isn't easy. This means that except for the SUPER FAST O.C.C.'s which normally have +3 or SUPER FAST characters (Physical Prowess 30+) most people are going to have initiative close to one another. Why does that matter I hear you asking? Because it is WAY better than the Tick Wheel system where exceptionally fast characters can get multiple actions while slower characters (or characters with a poor roll) only get one. However, the He Acts/You Acts idea is still present because of the Revolving Initiative system. Also, it means that making another character "go to the end of the initiative" by losing an action with a throw or body blow or other such combat maneuver keeps the combat constantly moving. (More on combat maneuvers later).

Note: Summing it up, the Palladium Imitative System challenges players to predict their opponents actions and respond appropriately instead of demanding all actions be immediately declared. This avoids problems you run into in other systems where a Player or Game Master might say "as he backs up I leap over him into a roll" and the target saying "I wasn't going to back up so you can't do that!" The Palladium Imitative system means you have a balanced act, react and respond system. Any intelligent, skilled or experienced Gamer is going to see the advantage and flexibility this offers over the standard initiative system utilized by most modern RPGs.

2.) Action/Attack!

I covered a little bit of this earlier in 1.) Roll Initiative but I'd like to expand on what I said earlier by going into attack options a little. Veteran players will immediately notice that Palladium unarmed combat is very flexible and unlike in standardized D&D-based RPG's being an unskilled and unarmed combatant does not provoke the dreaded attack of opportunity. This means that in the Palladium System an unarmed bother cradling her child can slap away a bewildering antagonist without it instantly being a death sentence. This of course extends to Player Characters and NPCs who have been disarmed or find themselves ambushed or unprepared. It might not SEEM like much but means that players who know they are out of luck and unarmed can still TRY without feeling like they're automatically going to lose.

Which brings me to chance... Chance; it can make your heart race or it can ruin a night and without cheating its impossible to control. In palladium people might argue that like every other RPG it comes down to rolling a D20 + your strike/accuracy bonus and if you roll a 1 you miss. In principle this is true but what a lot of people don't realize is that in Palladium if you roll a [n]Natural 5 or less[/b] on your strike roll with a Melee attack you will automatically miss. Expanding this to ranged attacks we see that Ranged attacks with a Natural Roll of 8 or lower automatic miss. This adds a whole extra level of strategy to combat that most systems do not have. Furthermore most Ranged attacks (including spells) that are used in Close Range Combat are difficult to avoid and so impart a -5 or -10 penalty (dependent on proximity).

Yet as if this was not enough, it is taken a step further with the rules for Cover. Most systems have cover as a part of line of sight or as a bonus but in Palladium to bypass the advantage of cover (which makes you immune to attacks that do not have an AOE) you must be able to draw a line of sight to them and then make a Called Shot. This encourages players to go-to-ground and take advantage of their environment instead of just running into melee and hacking at an enemy until one or the other is no longer standing.

Enter Combat Maneuvers, these attacks with conditional caveats (Sweep; Cannot be parried from behind) and variable damage encourage a player to think HOW he is going to fight and more importantly how his opponent is going to fight him.

EDIT: I have to cut this short because my dogs just got out of the yard but Ill continue on later. sorry its so incomplete

[Cinos]

Now that I'm not insanely tired and can read a bit;

I like the change to 2D10 A lot with how it evens out probability, meaning as a player I can interact with the game more, make better plans and bank on rolls more, while retaining an element of chance.

The same is true of skills, it makes them predictable and accountable when preforming actions.

I'm always a fan of Armor penetration, as long as its not instantly lethal.

The Hit location thing I'd get rid of. Hit Locations are always needlessly complex, chancy, and illogical. Getting hit in the head is about the least likely place to be shot in the heat of combat, and yet it's as likely as getting hit in the thigh or hand. I like it on the Called shots, because it retains a sense of grouping and the area you are aiming at is more likely to come up (or areas close to it). I would still make specialized classes (MOM's, Juicers, Assassins, etc), have some ability to regulate or control this (such as pick the dice used to target after rolling, or something).

[Cinos]

I won't dispute the complex bit. This one in particular has a fair bit of complexities. The chancy part I don't think is all that undesirable. The possibility of taking a dangerous shot to the CNS has inspired people to design helmets for all sorts of activities and I don't see why a game system shouldn't emulate this. As for illogical, do you have any evidence to back that up? This one in particular is fashioned very carefully to emulate the likelihood of strikes to a given body part based on attack type and also applies called shot hit location tables. I actually stole it, and as I recall the guy I stole it from used UFC fighting statistics (among other sources) to come up with as realistic a hit location simulator as he could. Now I've not verified it with a peer review study (I don't feel the need because it's just a game system) but I personally don't find this one illogical.

As for the benefit, it's my personal belief that all Cyberpunk games should have hit location integrated in the combat as a matter of course. Any game where limbs can get shot off really should have one. But that's just my opinion.

As I noted in the post before, it's because all the locations have a very close, if not identical, chance to be struck, a 1 is as likely to be rolled as an 8, thus, hitting someone in the Skull is as likely as hitting them in the Thigh, ranged or melee, this is highly unlikely, as the chest is the most likely area to be struck, simply because it's larger, than the head, but in this case, its the same odds as being shot in the head (2 in 10). And at that 2 in 10, do you think it's likely that a full 20% of bullets which hit their target connect with the head? Unless there is a good spread of numbers, which a D10 struggles to do, the system is inherently flawed as a random location generator. What's more is that it does ignore the difference between skilled and unskilled fighters, a skilled person defending against an unskilled is likely to be able to protect some areas by allowing less vital areas to be hit (and again against aware and unaware defenders). The position of where the attack is coming from and the type of attack there is. While you started this, by splitting it into slightly different Melee and Ranged location generation, something like a SMG is simply used differently then a single shot rifle or pistol, where (at least with a pro) will be aiming for square chest shots to drop, while an SMG is a more erratic layering of rounds that often strike higher on the body due to kick (again, depending on the level of skill of the attacker). Spears tend to favor different connection vectors then fists, the same is true vs Daggers and Swords, one often favoring tighter to the body slash, slams and thrusts that focus on lower chest and forearms, the other wider arcs, thrusts the like, that tend toward upper chest, thigh and shoulders.

As noted, I think the called shot charts are fine, give they do group those small details better, given the attackers level of focus to the area (but again, I think those pin point attacking classes should have some way to control it to represent their fineness).

As to Akashic Soldier, do you think it reasonable that an expert martial artist has a about a 30% chance to miss their target no matter how inept they are? Or an expert Sniper to miss a full 40% of the time they fire their weapon, even if their target is completely unaware of their presence? When you miss that often and there's nothing you can even do about it, it stops being a tactic choice, and you simply have to hope you out roll your opponent.

[Cinos]

By and large I agree with this, but you're arguing for more complexity now. The numbers as I presented them are a rough average of what's going to happen. I've made games with hit locations based on stance and weapon type and they're cool if you like that sort of thing. I'm big into guns and have a pretty decent background in trauma and it's effects on the body so I tend to be one of those guys.

You don't want to see how complex my rules are I'm actually a fan of complex rules, I dislike middle ground rules the most, I'm a purist like that, either fast and dirty knowing reality is backseating it, or I want a maze of numbers. I already have a entire thumbdrive that had to become just for my own house rules / re-write, that I had to deport anything else.

[Akashic Soldier]

As to Akashic Soldier, do you think it reasonable that an expert martial artist has a about a 30% chance to miss their target no matter how inept they are? Or an expert Sniper to miss a full 40% of the time they fire their weapon, even if their target is completely unaware of their presence? When you miss that often and there's nothing you can even do about it, it stops being a tactic choice, and you simply have to hope you out roll your opponent.

Yes I do because I consider it an act of God. The punch didn't connect properly (as someone who has experience in hand to hand combat I can vouch for that) and if the sniper missed its safe to assume the target tripped or stopped to tie their shoe. The large potential miss bracket in Palladium means that your players can runaway from a battalion of Deadboy's who are firing at them (Storm Trooper style) and the troop might only take a couple of nasty hits before they are able to get to cover.

I have not forgotten this thread and I will be continuing on to explain everything in more detail but I have just been very busy. In short it adds a more believable air of chance to combat. In an ideal world combat is is a controlled situation but in reality it is not and things constantly go wrong. A good soldier isn't the sniper that can shoot a fly at 20,000 yards with his eyes closed its the sniper that can recover from the miss and finish the job on the second shot without giving away his position if something goes wrong.

Here is another thread where I am talking about my experience with Player Character snipers and I touch on the art of being a good sniper.

People should try to keep in mind that unlike in other RPGs, in Palladum a skilled Martial Artist is defined less by your bonuses to strike and your level but how your character fights and uses his or her abilities to overcome their enemies. Although I am sure it was entirely unintentional on the part of the staff, Martial Arts was developed for incapacitating down larger and stronger opponents. Of all the games I have played Rifts has the most suited rules to reflect this within its core unarmed combat rules. Rifts is a game of technical combat, where victory hinged on the mind of an advanced gamer vs. the odds stacked against him by the Game Master balanced by the unpredictability of chance weighed against diligence and resourcefulness.

Combats are supposed to go for between 2-5 minutes like what we see in the movies, imagine watching a film where every conflict was resolved in 15 seconds with a flurry of overwhelming attacks, each one landing each time, each one dealing considerable damage. Maybe that would be something that would be impressive one time but really it makes for a rather bland combat. In Palladium a Player Character or NPC can have an honest to god genuine bad day--and I for one like that a lot!

[PhellaOne]

Just putting in a post so I can continue to track this thread.

[PhellaOne]

Just putting in a post so I can continue to track this thread.

Thanks PhellaOne, what's piqued you?

PM'ed.

[Akashic Soldier]

PM'ed.

Wasnt me.

It appears we're being... watched...

[PhellaOne]

PM'ed.

Wasnt me.

It appears we're being... watched...

[Akashic Soldier]

I had foolishly assumed that someone had PMed you in regard to this thread.

[PhellaOne]

I had foolishly assumed that someone had PMed you in regard to this thread.

They did.

[Akashic Soldier]

They did.

Should've gone with my gut.

So what were you confused abou--?

Ah, nevermind.

Lets not derail the topic any further.