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Has anyone figured out exactly what this statistic represents? It seems like it shouldn't even be rolled for as typically attractiveness has to do with symmetry, reproductive readiness, and physical health. Someone could just start with a base 8 PB, roll 1d4 for symmetry, and then just add to it based upon the final physical scores of the character; maybe +1 per every two statistic points above 15 for strength, prowess, and physical endurance. At least in this sense, the score has some level of context and can be used to judge physical readiness, compared to a free rolled PB that basically says nothing about the character at all.

The problem is PB covers more than just physical beauty, it is also supposed to represent how seductive/charming a person is. I have always thought that you could have someone who is so so in the looks department but is very charming or funny.

Neo wrote:The problem is PB covers more than just physical beauty, it is also supposed to represent how seductive/charming a person is. I have always thought that you could have someone who is so so in the looks department but is very charming or funny.

That would be covered by MA.

I've always considered MA to be how influential a person is or how persuasive they are. You can have an intelligence of 19 but if you are so shy you cant string a coherent sentence together you are not going to be thought of as smart. In the terms of funny you are right in that some of it can be apart of MA, I guess MA would be how cleaver the joke is and PB would be how well you preform it.

Mental Affinity (M.A.): Shows the character's personal charm and charisma, natural leaders, with an M.A. of 16 or higher, have a bonus to evoke trust or intimidation in others.

Physical Beauty (P.B.): An indication of the physical attractiveness of the character. A P.B. of 16 or better indicates exceptional attractiveness/beauty and is rewarded with a bonus to charm or impress.

PB may only represent physical beauty but that factor is such a massive player in how people behave (an unfortunate fact) that it is a must have attribute for any NPC you meet. If you miss using it then you're not getting the most out of your role-playing (IMO).

The problem with PB is that it doesn't have any kind of context towards the character physically. If someone told me their elf is 6'5" tall, fair skinned, looks to be in his prime, athletic, and has golden blonde hair, that tells me more about their physical appearance and beauty than saying "you see an elf with PB 30". The most the later elicits is a "wow, he has an ability score at 30." While normally this would fall into RP appearance vs game mechanics, there's supposed to be a direct link between PB and the physical appearance of the character.

Physical Beauty might be a decent statistic to allow other characters to analyze physical readiness and ability if it is written up correctly, as there is a direct link between physical capability and physical attractiveness between beings of the same species. I'm also under the mind set that PB should be made less human centric and just have modifiers for PB when relating to beings of other species / races. That way everyone is on the same PB scale and therefore increasing the statistics relevance.

The confusion comes because Charm is mentioned in MA as well as PB, what someone considers charm to represent varies from person to person.

The Dark Elf wrote:Mental Affinity (M.A.): Shows the character's personal charm and charisma, natural leaders, with an M.A. of 16 or higher, have a bonus to evoke trust or intimidation in others.

Physical Beauty (P.B.): An indication of the physical attractiveness of the character. A P.B. of 16 or better indicates exceptional attractiveness/beauty and is rewarded with a bonus to charm or impress.

PB may only represent physical beauty but that factor is such a massive player in how people behave (an unfortunate fact) that it is a must have attribute for any NPC you meet. If you miss using it then you're not getting the most out of your role-playing (IMO).

I agree with you on the importance of physical appearance, which is why PB probably needs to be treated differently than the rest of the statistics in how it is assigned. I mean, lets just look at the extreme case and say someone rolls a 3 on all three physical statistics: does it make any sense that a withered, barely living person with a PS, PP, and PE of 3 would have a PB of 30? Probably not along the gauge of physical attractiveness, but that is how the palladium system is working PB at the moment.

Prysus wrote:

Colt47 wrote:I mean, lets just look at the extreme case and say someone rolls a 3 on all three physical statistics: does it make any sense that a withered, barely living person with a PS, PP, and PE of 3 would have a PB of 30?

Greetings and Salutations. Actually, I can totally see it! A low physical stat does not mean ugly. Does every person who ends up in a wheel chair automatically drop in their physical attractiveness?

Think about super models. Some of these women you can see their ribs because they're so damn skinny and then throwing up to lose more weight. And these women are considered not just attractive, but super model. I think it's disgusting, but that's not the general view point.

Now let's put this in reverse! Let's think about In Living Color when Jim Carrey dresses up as a muscle woman who is supposed to be in GREAT physical condition, super strong and athletic. But that does NOT mean that the character would have a high Physical Beauty by default. In fact, I think most people would agree he made a very ugly woman (which was the point). What about a cave woman? Strong and physical ... doesn't mean most people would want to date her.

Note: I went to show counter examples. This does not mean a woman can't be physically capable and attractive, nor does it mean someone physically unhealthy is automatically attractive. These are counter points to help show physical stats do not necessarily reflect into physical beauty, not stand alones.

Now the examples I gave are men viewing women. Sorry I just can't give examples of how women see men, my mind just doesn't work that way. Now I may not personally find P.B. all that important, but I do understand enough about men to know there's more than basic physical capability. Anyways, thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Super models are not nearly as attractive as they appear in magazines. Photoshop miracles at their finest. Also, unfortunately yes: being wheel chair bound because of physical inability results in a less attractive person. Symmetry and sexual dimorphism are at the heart of physical attractiveness and those who do not fit within certain criteria are viewed as less attractive. In fact, there's university papers written on the subject and anyone who has done life drawing will have plenty of experience with the phenomena. However, there are cultural and personal preferences which can make someone look more physically attractive to a specific individual, though that is more a feature of the onlooker than the actual person.

I'm not outright saying someone couldn't look decent and be wheel chair bound, but they aren't going to be an Adonis by any stretch of the word. Also, if by cave woman you mean a Neanderthal, that isn't a modern human and obviously wouldn't meet the standards of symmetry that is currently biologically programmed into us.

As far as super strong body building types that get ripped... Yeah that isn't natural by any stretch of the word regardless of sex (Nor healthy, mind you).

Colt47 wrote: lets just look at the extreme case and say someone rolls a 3 on all three physical statistics: does it make any sense that a withered, barely living person with a PS, PP, and PE of 3 would have a PB of 30? Probably not along the gauge of physical attractiveness, but that is how the palladium system is working PB at the moment.

It makes as much sense as somebody having a PS and PP of 3, but a PE of 3.
Or a PE and PS of 3, but a PP of 30.
Or a PP and PE of 3, but a PS of 30.

The fact that huge differentials in physical attributes can lead to some strange images doesn't stem from the PB attribute alone.

Prysus wrote:

Colt47 wrote:Super models are not nearly as attractive as they appear in magazines. Photoshop miracles at their finest.

Greetings and Salutations. I won't argue with that at all. They're not as attractive as they appear in magazines. On a personal note I don't think they're all that attractive in magazines either. The problem is by going solely on physical stats, some of these women would rank among the ugliest women on the planet. While subjective views differ, trying to say they only promote the ugliest women possible sounds like a poor argument.

Colt47 wrote:However, there are cultural and personal preferences which can make someone look more physically attractive to a specific individual, though that is more a feature of the onlooker than the actual person.

Actually, I'd argue a lot of it's cultural based, but that's not really able to be determined in a game stat. So I'm not even starting that topic.

Colt47 wrote:Also, if by cave woman you mean a Neanderthal, that isn't a modern human and obviously wouldn't meet the standards of symmetry that is currently biologically programmed into us.

Neantherthal is what I was referencing, but the problem is modern isn't a factor. Your PB method above talks solely about physical capabilities. Based on features such as PS, PE, and PP. Without these features, everyone is an 8. So even with a lower starting PB, the PS and PE attributes would probably rank her more attractive.

Colt47 wrote:As far as super strong body building types that get ripped... Yeah that isn't natural by any stretch of the word regardless of sex (Nor healthy, mind you).

I'm not disagreeing, but you want it based off of things like PS and PE. So when those become major factors, we have to look at those factors. So a body builder would be more attractive than an aerobics (which offers no PS, PE, or PP bonuses) instructor. I don't think that method solves the issues with the stat, just creates an entirely different problem.

Anyways, I think that's all for now. I could go on longer, but I really don't care enough. I have a lot of issues with the P.B. stat, this just isn't one of them. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Yeah I'm not arguing that my idea is somehow the stop all solution to the PB problem. Honestly, it would be incredibly short sighted to say so. Though there are bits and pieces of it that probably are applicable at least in some sense. Also, you have good points on the extreme body building being the counter to my original statement.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Colt47 wrote: lets just look at the extreme case and say someone rolls a 3 on all three physical statistics: does it make any sense that a withered, barely living person with a PS, PP, and PE of 3 would have a PB of 30? Probably not along the gauge of physical attractiveness, but that is how the palladium system is working PB at the moment.

It makes as much sense as somebody having a PS and PP of 3, but a PE of 3.
Or a PE and PS of 3, but a PP of 30.
Or a PP and PE of 3, but a PS of 30.

The fact that huge differentials in physical attributes can lead to some strange images doesn't stem from the PB attribute alone.

Yeah, but at least we all know what these attributes concretely mean about the character. The same can't really be said about Physical Beauty, as it seems like it has an idea of what it should be based off of, but doesn't really define itself enough.

Colt47 wrote:Yeah, but at least we all know what these attributes concretely mean about the character. The same can't really be said about Physical Beauty, as it seems like it has an idea of what it should be based off of, but doesn't really define itself enough.

What part do you feel is undefined?

Colt47 wrote:Has anyone figured out exactly what this statistic represents? It seems like it shouldn't even be rolled for as typically attractiveness has to do with symmetry, reproductive readiness, and physical health. Someone could just start with a base 8 PB, roll 1d4 for symmetry, and then just add to it based upon the final physical scores of the character; maybe +1 per every two statistic points above 15 for strength, prowess, and physical endurance. At least in this sense, the score has some level of context and can be used to judge physical readiness, compared to a free rolled PB that basically says nothing about the character at all.

To the latter part of other Physical stats adding to PB. Ever see a champion body builder? They're rarely attractive. Even I think a lot of high end gymnast are pretty odd looking since they focus on one feature so heavily (which of course is to enhance performance, anything that adds balance, speed and flexibility is tantamount to them over looks). Even an endurance runner can look like their face was born in a blender, regardless of their ability to run. PB is just fine as it's own abstracted 3D6 roll (or whatever their races is).

Due to the fact that all of Pally's stats can be traced back to old D&D stats (IQ=INT, ME=WIS, MA=CHA, PS=STR, PE=CON, PP=DEX, PB=COM), one should start there.

COM (Comeliness) was used to increase or decrease character (PC or NPC) reactions to the Player Character. Nothing more. Thereby, PB would only do the same.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Colt47 wrote:Yeah, but at least we all know what these attributes concretely mean about the character. The same can't really be said about Physical Beauty, as it seems like it has an idea of what it should be based off of, but doesn't really define itself enough.

What part do you feel is undefined?

What does it define as a physical characteristic? If it represents physical attractiveness as per the book, then it represents physical dimorphism and body symmetry. Dimorphism is partly dependent upon physical conditioning (I.E. women who bend towards being mesomorphs have a higher degree of muscle strength and also have more of an hourglass shaped body. Men have more of a trapezoidal upper body when they are mesomorphs.) So in that regard the statistic isn't truly independent of the other statistics like PS, PP, and PE are. Ironically, Palladium seems to agree on this connection given that certain ability boosts in Nightbane and Heroes Unlimited increase PB along with other physical statistics.

So, when I say define, I mean the ability to represent something that is not linked to other statistics.

there are pretty people who would die with in a few days working in the fields of a farm, lets look at some porn stars. they are realisticly employed to be pretty and sexualy apealing, many of the the male ones could probaly do fine with labor and work, many of the female ones would die if forced to work hard.
I think PB is fine as is, but its using the stat thats high that my party often falls into a problem. IE you see 5 raiders they are going to mug you as far as you can tell....player. Ill use charm and impress to make them not want to kill me or at least to distract them from the rest of the group.
Well does that mean they spare you cuase they have plans to rape you later? do they loose inititive cuase they are awe struct by your hotness?

Same thing with MA in a super hero's game I ended up with a stupid high MA and tried using it once, the GM not made but kinda stumped how he should use it. I went into the whare house and yelled, "put your guns down or ill beat you down and make you eat them" I had 22 so 70% chance of it working. I rolled good I had a 23% if i rember so under by well over 40 points, do the bad guys get scared and give up, are they so startled that they get some negative for being scared? does that mean that 40% of them are so scared they give up ? does it give me a HF sorta? we didnt know so he ruled that they had a 47% chance of giving up, all but 2 of 10 did, GM gave me the other 2 cuase it turned into very long odds for the steadfast ones.

The same thing with PB though say your dumbfoundingly good looking, you want a discount on a rifle, you make your roll " ahhh come on your not gonna charge me that price are you..." or something like that, do you get a discount? do they throw in some free mags? nothing but ask for your number? who knows its up to your gm.

Colt47 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Colt47 wrote:Yeah, but at least we all know what these attributes concretely mean about the character. The same can't really be said about Physical Beauty, as it seems like it has an idea of what it should be based off of, but doesn't really define itself enough.

What part do you feel is undefined?

What does it define as a physical characteristic? If it represents physical attractiveness as per the book, then it represents physical dimorphism and body symmetry. Dimorphism is partly dependent upon physical conditioning (I.E. women who bend towards being mesomorphs have a higher degree of muscle strength and also have more of an hourglass shaped body. Men have more of a trapezoidal upper body when they are mesomorphs.) So in that regard the statistic isn't truly independent of the other statistics like PS, PP, and PE are. Ironically, Palladium seems to agree on this connection given that certain ability boosts in Nightbane and Heroes Unlimited increase PB along with other physical statistics.

So, when I say define, I mean the ability to represent something that is not linked to other statistics.

How are the other statistics "independent of the other statistics?"

The basic mistake that is being made is that PS, PP, and PE have any effect in how a person looks.

Look at Blob from X-Men Wolverine, he had a high PS and a high PE, but he had a LOW PB. Just because a person has a high PS doesn't mean that they look well musled. And a person who has a low PE doesn't mean that they look sickley.

PB represents not just physical apearence it represent the undefinable that make a person visually attractive.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Colt47 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Colt47 wrote:Yeah, but at least we all know what these attributes concretely mean about the character. The same can't really be said about Physical Beauty, as it seems like it has an idea of what it should be based off of, but doesn't really define itself enough.

What part do you feel is undefined?

What does it define as a physical characteristic? If it represents physical attractiveness as per the book, then it represents physical dimorphism and body symmetry. Dimorphism is partly dependent upon physical conditioning (I.E. women who bend towards being mesomorphs have a higher degree of muscle strength and also have more of an hourglass shaped body. Men have more of a trapezoidal upper body when they are mesomorphs.) So in that regard the statistic isn't truly independent of the other statistics like PS, PP, and PE are. Ironically, Palladium seems to agree on this connection given that certain ability boosts in Nightbane and Heroes Unlimited increase PB along with other physical statistics.

So, when I say define, I mean the ability to represent something that is not linked to other statistics.

How are the other statistics "independent of the other statistics?"

Being stronger doesn't mean you have better reflexes, having a good physical endurance doesn't mean you are faster, etc. PB actually does link into what a persons build might be, which does link towards physical conditioning. So a person who fits sexual dimorphism is likely going to be stronger than someone who does not. Unless someone wants to go with the exceptional case like a sumo wrestler or extreme body builder.

Colt47 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Colt47 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Colt47 wrote:Yeah, but at least we all know what these attributes concretely mean about the character. The same can't really be said about Physical Beauty, as it seems like it has an idea of what it should be based off of, but doesn't really define itself enough.

What part do you feel is undefined?

What does it define as a physical characteristic? If it represents physical attractiveness as per the book, then it represents physical dimorphism and body symmetry. Dimorphism is partly dependent upon physical conditioning (I.E. women who bend towards being mesomorphs have a higher degree of muscle strength and also have more of an hourglass shaped body. Men have more of a trapezoidal upper body when they are mesomorphs.) So in that regard the statistic isn't truly independent of the other statistics like PS, PP, and PE are. Ironically, Palladium seems to agree on this connection given that certain ability boosts in Nightbane and Heroes Unlimited increase PB along with other physical statistics.

So, when I say define, I mean the ability to represent something that is not linked to other statistics.

How are the other statistics "independent of the other statistics?"

Being stronger doesn't mean you have better reflexes, having a good physical endurance doesn't mean you are faster, etc.

But being fast requires a certain level of muscle power.
Being strong requires a certain level of endurance.
Having a high endurance requires a certain level of muscle power.
And so on.
There's a lot of interplay between the different attributes- I don't see why PB is worthy of zooming in on specifically.

PB actually does link into what a persons build might be, which does link towards physical conditioning. So a person who fits sexual dimorphism is likely going to be stronger than someone who does not. Unless someone wants to go with the exceptional case like a sumo wrestler or extreme body builder.

Beauty is about more than just physique.
A person can have a beautiful body, but an ugly face.
A person might have a beautiful face, but an ugly body.
A person might have a pleasing shape, but hideously bad skin.
A person might have nice skin, but have a hideous body.

Zoe Voss is regarded as beautiful by many people (myself included), but part of her beauty comes from her delicateness. If her physical strength were higher, she'd have more muscle and this delicateness would likely be lost, which might actually decrease her beauty as far as many were concerned.
Back when the show American Gladiators was on, I thought that a lot of the female gladiators were incredibly sexy, but I remember a number of my friends disagreeing with me- the key complaint being that they were too muscly.
And that's not just an issue with women, either: take a long look at what the female population considers to be sexy and/or beautiful.
Sure, there's a lot of muscly guys out there that women drool over... but they also go for guys like Johnny Depp, and other slender, delicate pretty-boys.

What it comes down to is that there are different opinions of beauty, there are different kinds of beauty, and there are different factors that go into any one person's overall level of beauty.
While physique is usually a factor, that doesn't mean that it's the most significant factor, or even that it's a key factor.

Good point. I guess the part that bothers me is that this is a statistic that really begs to be fleshed out through something a bit more descriptive than a roll. Genetic lottery is fine, but picking out physically what the character looks like by selecting features, and giving bonuses or negatives based on those features, would allow someone to build a physical description of a character while also giving context to their Physical Beauty score.

Colt47 wrote:Good point. I guess the part that bothers me is that this is a statistic that really begs to be fleshed out through something a bit more descriptive than a roll. Genetic lottery is fine, but picking out physically what the character looks like by selecting features, and giving bonuses or negatives based on those features, would allow someone to build a physical description of a character while also giving context to their Physical Beauty score.

Sometimes, though, less is more.
Entire books could be filled with rules to make for an accurate system of rules to cover Physical Beauty as a concept, but most games focus more on other things.

I have gone back and forth with my players about what exactly a PB score represents for their characters. The short version... its a basic measure of how physically pleasant you appear when seen by others. It is, for all intents, NOT a measure of attractiveness, as factors from all of the attributes play a part in how attractive a character may or may not be to others.

A high PB rating indicates that, for your race/species, your character has what can be considered an ideal physical form and appearance that can play a large role in attracting the attention and even influencing the perceptions, of a person. Simply put, a low PB rates you around the attractiveness level of a haggard and mangy dog with a broken leg and one eye, while a high PB score can have you elevated around the appearance of a peacock or swan. This is not to say that your physical appearance is the only factor considered when determining overall attractiveness... personally I don't find peacocks all that pretty. Sure, it's prettier than the flea bitten mutt, but I'm not all oooohh and aaaahh over a peacock. Actual attractiveness, at least in terms of finding a mate, or at least some company for the evening, is based on the factors that ALL of a characters attributes contribute versus the standards set by the beholder. Sure, your character has a PB of 30, a PS and PP of 25 or better, is tough as nails with a PE of 28 and even has a decent personality with a MA of 20 or so... but if the pretty little stablemaid your eyeing has a thing for really smart men, your character's IQ of 10 just killed his chances before he even got out of the gate. And that little stablemaid, while finding you at least physically attractive and having a nice personality, will STILL walk away saying "Sorry... you're just not my type".

Bottom line... don't associate a PB score with how attractive a character is. Think of it as a measure of how close you physically are to being the ideal shape and appearance of your race/species for the purpose of actually being attractive to people, at least physically, based solely on your appearance.

And don't think for a second that I have any kind of gender bias in this. I am a red-blooded, woman-loving American man, but I'm happy to admit there are some damn good looking men in this world. My opinions about the physical appearances about some of them differ from others, but that just shows how horribly trivial the PB attribute really is when determining how attractive someone is. Personally, I think Jason Momoa is a pretty darn attractive guy... I've often commented on how I would give up a few choice body parts to look like him. My wife disagrees totally... doesn't think he even looks good. Why? Her perceptions of him versus mine. Proof positive of the PB attribute only being a partial determining factor in overall attractiveness. Beauty truly is in the eye of the beholder.

Petite Elfgirl wrote:

JuliusCreed wrote:Personally, I think Jason Momoa is a pretty darn attractive guy... My wife disagrees totally... doesn't think he even looks good. Why? Her perceptions of him versus mine. Proof positive of the PB attribute only being a partial determining factor in overall attractiveness. Beauty truly is in the eye of the beholder.

Err . . . I'm with your wife on that one, Julius.

Another point for the beholder's camp.

I definitely agree that it depends on culture and upbringing (was it Africa that felt heavier women were more attractive than slim ones?), or at least holds a factor. I've heard some women gush over Tom Cruise; personally, I can't stand the guy. Harrison Ford? Oh goodness me, yes please.

It seems it's nearly unanimous that Angelina Jolie is ultra sexy . . . nearly. Personally, I think Kate Beckinsale is much prettier.

For some of those "iffy" types of "good-looking guys and gals" people don't agree on, I'd give them a P.B. attribute of 16-21 and an M.A. of 16-19.* Some people may perceive them as attractive, others no, and so forth. There are also a plethora of circumstantial bonuses and penalties. Gay men, for example, may likely shudder and move politely away if a woman tries hitting on him, no matter how "sexy" she appears. The point of stats, I think, are simply to flexible guidelines for players. It's already been pointed out that "P.S." isn't comprehensive; some people can lift a lot more with their legs, some people have just come out of an arm cast, ad nauseum.

Why should P.B. be any different?

To each their own milady, thoug I gotta agree with your take on the Tom Cruise/ Harrison Ford comparisons. As far as the culture ideas go, I'm not certain of Africa, but Victorian era Europe had it's fair share of larger women, all considered quite attractive for their time. The culture supported that as an attractive appearance because a heavier girl was a well fed girl, ie, she was rich.

I think that the guy is making a point. There are skills that replace PB and what does it mean to charm and impress? What does the victim do? Is it Hypnotic Suggestion?

See PS is defined as are all the other traits but PB and MA aren't.

Colt47 wrote:Has anyone figured out exactly what this statistic represents? ...snip

The stat is supose to be a representation of how beautyful a human would find such a being.

Zenvis wrote:I think that the guy is making a point. There are skills that replace PB and what does it mean to charm and impress? What does the victim do? Is it Hypnotic Suggestion?

See PS is defined as are all the other traits but PB and MA aren't.

The Charm/Impress and Trust/Intimidate rolls associated with the PB and MA attributes are there primarily to give a player a basis for how attractive, impressive, charming or intimidating their characters are in appearance and personality. They are supposed to be used for role playing situations where a particular skill isn't exactly applicable. For example a female Thief with a high PB could use the accomanying rolls to maybe make an attempt at charming a victim to distraction while lifting his money pouch or 'talking' her way out of trouble by using those lovely feminine wiles (see showing a little extra skin). A Mercenary might use a high MA roll to intimidate the gang of Orc thugs into backing down because he 'doesn't want to have to hurt them', or possibly even impressing them enough with his bravdo to simply join forces with the 'obviously superior' warrior. Don't think ROLL playing with a high PB or MA, think ROLE playing with a dice roll to give that little extra helping boost to what you're trying to accomplish.