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Simple enough question, how would you go about breaking down the Ninjitsu MA as listed in the Ninjas and Super-spies book into the actual Martial art and the actual OCC, rather than it being a blending of the two? This causes quite a bit of problem as these really should be separate, not every Ninja would necessarily know the Ninjitsu MA and the skills of the Ninja should be off in a separate package to cover those Ninja that aren't also Ninjitsu masters.

There is an actual Ninja OCC in Ninjas and Super Spies?

Mr. Deific NMI wrote:There is an actual Ninja OCC in Ninjas and Super Spies?

Unfortunately no, they basically rolled the OCC into the MA making it I think the only MA in the game that's actually not purely a MA it's a disguised OCC with a fixed MA available. When you look at it it's a 20 year training time and contains a vast amount of skills and training that really have nothing to do with combat or what you'd expect from a MA but would from an OCC. So it needs to be broken down between a simple Ninjitsu MA and a Ninja OCC instead of being combined into one.

IIRC, TMNT had it as a HtH style.

The Beast wrote:IIRC, TMNT had it as a HtH style.

Hmmm, I'd forgotten that there was a version of the Ninjitsu MA there. Now that I think about it they also have a version in Rifts Japan if memory serves.

Nightmask wrote:

The Beast wrote:IIRC, TMNT had it as a HtH style.

Hmmm, I'd forgotten that there was a version of the Ninjitsu MA there. Now that I think about it they also have a version in Rifts Japan if memory serves.

I think you're on the right track here. The Mystic Ninja in Rifts Japan has the Ninjitsu Martial art, as well as a level progression for other power and psi abilities. On the flip side, the Tech Ninja, if he forgoes a set number of skills, can take the full Hand to Hand Ninjitsu that the Mystic Ninja get, but without all the extra powers, and with different skills.

Faceless Dude wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

The Beast wrote:IIRC, TMNT had it as a HtH style.

Hmmm, I'd forgotten that there was a version of the Ninjitsu MA there. Now that I think about it they also have a version in Rifts Japan if memory serves.

I think you're on the right track here. The Mystic Ninja in Rifts Japan has the Ninjitsu Martial art, as well as a level progression for other power and psi abilities. On the flip side, the Tech Ninja, if he forgoes a set number of skills, can take the full Hand to Hand Ninjitsu that the Mystic Ninja get, but without all the extra powers, and with different skills.

Which still leaves the question as to what a Ninja OCC looks like, even though we've several versions of a Ninjitsu MA we don't really have a Ninja OCC that has the option of Ninjitsu as its HtH training. After all we should see Ninja who are Zanji masters or Tien Hsueh or even Triad Assassin training for their MA instead of all of them being trained in Ninjitsu or whose skills include more modern skills like computer hacking or surveillance systems.

Nightmask wrote:

Faceless Dude wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

The Beast wrote:IIRC, TMNT had it as a HtH style.

Hmmm, I'd forgotten that there was a version of the Ninjitsu MA there. Now that I think about it they also have a version in Rifts Japan if memory serves.

I think you're on the right track here. The Mystic Ninja in Rifts Japan has the Ninjitsu Martial art, as well as a level progression for other power and psi abilities. On the flip side, the Tech Ninja, if he forgoes a set number of skills, can take the full Hand to Hand Ninjitsu that the Mystic Ninja get, but without all the extra powers, and with different skills.

Which still leaves the question as to what a Ninja OCC looks like, even though we've several versions of a Ninjitsu MA we don't really have a Ninja OCC that has the option of Ninjitsu as its HtH training. After all we should see Ninja who are Zanji masters or Tien Hsueh or even Triad Assassin training for their MA instead of all of them being trained in Ninjitsu or whose skills include more modern skills like computer hacking or surveillance systems.

For all intents there is NO Ninja OCC for N&SS. The creation of a Ninja is done by making a DMA and selecting Ninjitsu as his martial art form. By canon, this is the only form he can take and all of the skills and powers he gets from the form are what make him a Ninja, including the 'cover personas' provided in the forms description. However, this is a woefully underskilled version of a Ninja IMHO. Your best bet is to house rule Ninjitsu so it is non-exclusive and only counts as one form, then either...

A> make him a DMA and give him an additional form for expanded fighting skills and a slightly higher skill range with the extra skills and abilities with the second form...

or...

B> make him a WMA or any other OCC that only gets a single form and have a seriously expanded skill base, yet still retain the basic fighting style of a Ninja

Nightmask wrote:

Faceless Dude wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

The Beast wrote:IIRC, TMNT had it as a HtH style.

Hmmm, I'd forgotten that there was a version of the Ninjitsu MA there. Now that I think about it they also have a version in Rifts Japan if memory serves.

I think you're on the right track here. The Mystic Ninja in Rifts Japan has the Ninjitsu Martial art, as well as a level progression for other power and psi abilities. On the flip side, the Tech Ninja, if he forgoes a set number of skills, can take the full Hand to Hand Ninjitsu that the Mystic Ninja get, but without all the extra powers, and with different skills.

Which still leaves the question as to what a Ninja OCC looks like, even though we've several versions of a Ninjitsu MA we don't really have a Ninja OCC that has the option of Ninjitsu as its HtH training. After all we should see Ninja who are Zanji masters or Tien Hsueh or even Triad Assassin training for their MA instead of all of them being trained in Ninjitsu or whose skills include more modern skills like computer hacking or surveillance systems.

So, I think what you're looking for is ultimately a "Ninja" OCC that goes beyond just some guy with the Ninjitsu Martial art, thus allowing a "Ninja-mindset" to other professions. Ninja assassins, Ninja swordsmen, High-Tech Ninjas, and so forth. Is this about right?

There might be a good Rifter article in there.

Faceless Dude wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Faceless Dude wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

The Beast wrote:IIRC, TMNT had it as a HtH style.

Hmmm, I'd forgotten that there was a version of the Ninjitsu MA there. Now that I think about it they also have a version in Rifts Japan if memory serves.

I think you're on the right track here. The Mystic Ninja in Rifts Japan has the Ninjitsu Martial art, as well as a level progression for other power and psi abilities. On the flip side, the Tech Ninja, if he forgoes a set number of skills, can take the full Hand to Hand Ninjitsu that the Mystic Ninja get, but without all the extra powers, and with different skills.

Which still leaves the question as to what a Ninja OCC looks like, even though we've several versions of a Ninjitsu MA we don't really have a Ninja OCC that has the option of Ninjitsu as its HtH training. After all we should see Ninja who are Zanji masters or Tien Hsueh or even Triad Assassin training for their MA instead of all of them being trained in Ninjitsu or whose skills include more modern skills like computer hacking or surveillance systems.

So, I think what you're looking for is ultimately a "Ninja" OCC that goes beyond just some guy with the Ninjitsu Martial art, thus allowing a "Ninja-mindset" to other professions. Ninja assassins, Ninja swordsmen, High-Tech Ninjas, and so forth. Is this about right?

There might be a good Rifter article in there.

Pretty much. The Martial Art in the book isn't just a Martial Art, it's containing too many skills that really belong to an OCC called 'Ninja' rather than to a Martial Art.

Wait wasn'tthe only reason to take Ninjistu was to be a ninja. Guess it comes down to defining what a Ninja is. Is a Ninja a stealth martial arts spy/assin or some one who studies ninjistu. Looking at the opening discription it says it is two martial arts rolled into one, the arts of Ninjitsu and the ninja's fighting style Tai-Jutsu. So what you are asking for is not how to build the OCC but seperate the two styles witch are blended. To me the easest way to do that whould be to give the non combat side the arts of invibilty and non combat skills to the non combat side and all combat skills and the 2 other skills to the combat side.

To me it looks like the bigest difrence is the number of martial arts powers. several martial arts with multiple weapon katas have as many skills in them if not more I count 15 total skills and 4 powers (Most are weapon skills several could actualy be the same weapon skill just listed with difrent exact weapon.) in ninjistu. Other martial arts forms have as many or more weapon skills pluss other skills but less powers so the MA powers seam to be a big part of the cost.

Ninjutsu wouldn't be the first N&SS MA with a large amount of skills packaged along with it, though it probably has the most I can remember seeing. Zanji also has a good amount eh?

Tor wrote:Ninjutsu wouldn't be the first N&SS MA with a large amount of skills packaged along with it, though it probably has the most I can remember seeing.

There's always Moo Gi Gong.

Or you could always adapt the various ninjas from Rifts WB8. They have various high-tech ninjas that don't get the Ninjitsu martial art.

To me, though, a ninja isn't just some highly-trained assassin that can kick a$$, sneak around, and also snipe someone from a mile away. The ninja has a mystique about them, similar (but superior) to that of the Middle East Assassins or the Hindu Thuggees. Given the right skill package & MA form, combined with, say, Special Training from HU2, and you can get someone whose skills and lethality could potentially match the ninja... but will they necessarily *be* a ninja?

How do you make a Ninja with Zanji I n N&SS.
1) You take a Martial Artist that can take Zanji
2) You take a bunch of skills that are 'ninja' (prowl, disguise, what ever)
3) You say "I'm a Ninja"
okay, next question.

Nightmask wrote:

Faceless Dude wrote:
So, I think what you're looking for is ultimately a "Ninja" OCC that goes beyond just some guy with the Ninjitsu Martial art, thus allowing a "Ninja-mindset" to other professions. Ninja assassins, Ninja swordsmen, High-Tech Ninjas, and so forth. Is this about right?

There might be a good Rifter article in there.

Pretty much. The Martial Art in the book isn't just a Martial Art, it's containing too many skills that really belong to an OCC called 'Ninja' rather than to a Martial Art.

That's why it counts as to forms rather than as a single one. (it mattered only in the first ed of N&SS, before those stupid revisions). But as Erick viewed things, a ninja was a Martial Artist OCC with Ninjutsu... Nothing to prevent ninja clans from training their agents without the traditional arts and into other OCCs... anything to get the job done.

jimmyjimjam wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Faceless Dude wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

The Beast wrote:IIRC, TMNT had it as a HtH style.

Hmmm, I'd forgotten that there was a version of the Ninjitsu MA there. Now that I think about it they also have a version in Rifts Japan if memory serves.

I think you're on the right track here. The Mystic Ninja in Rifts Japan has the Ninjitsu Martial art, as well as a level progression for other power and psi abilities. On the flip side, the Tech Ninja, if he forgoes a set number of skills, can take the full Hand to Hand Ninjitsu that the Mystic Ninja get, but without all the extra powers, and with different skills.

Which still leaves the question as to what a Ninja OCC looks like, even though we've several versions of a Ninjitsu MA we don't really have a Ninja OCC that has the option of Ninjitsu as its HtH training. After all we should see Ninja who are Zanji masters or Tien Hsueh or even Triad Assassin training for their MA instead of all of them being trained in Ninjitsu or whose skills include more modern skills like computer hacking or surveillance systems.

Hey Nightmask: you are a munchkin.

That's an offensive thing to say and not even remotely true.

Svartalf wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Faceless Dude wrote:
So, I think what you're looking for is ultimately a "Ninja" OCC that goes beyond just some guy with the Ninjitsu Martial art, thus allowing a "Ninja-mindset" to other professions. Ninja assassins, Ninja swordsmen, High-Tech Ninjas, and so forth. Is this about right?

There might be a good Rifter article in there.

Pretty much. The Martial Art in the book isn't just a Martial Art, it's containing too many skills that really belong to an OCC called 'Ninja' rather than to a Martial Art.

That's why it counts as to forms rather than as a single one. (it mattered only in the first ed of N&SS, before those stupid revisions). But as Erick viewed things, a ninja was a Martial Artist OCC with Ninjutsu... Nothing to prevent ninja clans from training their agents without the traditional arts and into other OCCs... anything to get the job done.

Which is why I ask about separating the OCC from the MA style, since a Ninja clan shouldn't all be Dedicated Martial Artists with Ninjitsu, yet the skills considered core training for a Ninja are confined solely to the Ninjitsu MA which can only be taken by a Dedicated Martial Artist. There should be the core skill OCC package (such as adopting the various disquises) and then a selection of MA of which the most common is Ninjitsu.

I mean it's the 21st century they aren't idiots and have to adapt with the times if they want to remain successful, which they aren't going to be if they can't manage to gain any skills suited to dealing with modern hurdles to success. A version of that can be seen with the Tech-Ninja in Rifts: Japan, having adapted to the advances and making use of more modern equipment and training.

eliakon wrote:How do you make a Ninja with Zanji I n N&SS.
1) You take a Martial Artist that can take Zanji
2) You take a bunch of skills that are 'ninja' (prowl, disguise, what ever)
3) You say "I'm a Ninja"
okay, next question.

Except there are some skills that are ninja that you can't take because you have to be able to take the Ninjitsu MA to acquire them. Certain special things that aren't MA related but are Ninja-related.

Use an Operative agent OCC and make a modern assassin with it (triad assassin MA from Mystic China, bodyguard/assassin, deep cover, physical skills and explosive construction programs, choose military skills like basic military and a vehicle program... voilà)

Nightmask wrote:

eliakon wrote:How do you make a Ninja with Zanji I n N&SS.
1) You take a Martial Artist that can take Zanji
2) You take a bunch of skills that are 'ninja' (prowl, disguise, what ever)
3) You say "I'm a Ninja"
okay, next question.

Except there are some skills that are ninja that you can't take because you have to be able to take the Ninjitsu MA to acquire them. Certain special things that aren't MA related but are Ninja-related.

So what, EXACTLY do you want? Like can you make a list of what you feel is needed to be a 'ninja' Its a lot easier to help a person when you know what they want, then if you just have to guess until you get it right

eliakon wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

eliakon wrote:How do you make a Ninja with Zanji I n N&SS.
1) You take a Martial Artist that can take Zanji
2) You take a bunch of skills that are 'ninja' (prowl, disguise, what ever)
3) You say "I'm a Ninja"
okay, next question.

Except there are some skills that are ninja that you can't take because you have to be able to take the Ninjitsu MA to acquire them. Certain special things that aren't MA related but are Ninja-related.

So what, EXACTLY do you want? Like can you make a list of what you feel is needed to be a 'ninja' Its a lot easier to help a person when you know what they want, then if you just have to guess until you get it right

Well as noted in the original post, separate off the stuff that's suited to ninjitsu as a martial art (i.e. HtH: Ninjitsu) and what really should be left over to an actual Ninja OCC.

Nightmask wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

eliakon wrote:How do you make a Ninja with Zanji I n N&SS.
1) You take a Martial Artist that can take Zanji
2) You take a bunch of skills that are 'ninja' (prowl, disguise, what ever)
3) You say "I'm a Ninja"
okay, next question.

Except there are some skills that are ninja that you can't take because you have to be able to take the Ninjitsu MA to acquire them. Certain special things that aren't MA related but are Ninja-related.

So what, EXACTLY do you want? Like can you make a list of what you feel is needed to be a 'ninja' Its a lot easier to help a person when you know what they want, then if you just have to guess until you get it right

Well as noted in the original post, separate off the stuff that's suited to ninjitsu as a martial art (i.e. HtH: Ninjitsu) and what really should be left over to an actual Ninja OCC.

Since the onlything in the MA that you can't get outside it is the 'full background ID' just make covers part of being a 'ninja'
if you want to make this a non-exclusive MA, easy
Reduce the skills to: Japanese and your two Weapon Katas
Reduce the number of martial arts powers by one. For a total of 2 invisibility and 1 other.
Remove the fake identity

BOOM you have a more 'generic' ninja Martial Art (not a H2H mind you, this is still a full MAF)

for an OCC, just take all the stuff that you just removed....and make it your OCC skills since well, that's what you removed.
so your 'ninja occ' would get
Acrobatics, Swimming, Climbing, 4 W.P.s and a cover ID

So....pretty much what I said before, take anything with a martial art, add a few 'ninja skills' to it and call it a ninja (oh, and ask your GM if, as a ninja you can have a cover)