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Maybe at level 1 a Juicer could stand toe to toe with the Gun Master due to them being mnore front-loaded with their bonuses and abilities but that is a very big maybe.
At higher levels nothing in that list comes even close to a Gun Master.

Rappanui wrote:main reason the psi slinger wins, he turns all the opponents attacks into SDC and can negate Everyone's advantages with psionics.

Nope.
Reread it again.
Page 98 new west special ability 3.

I am adding my vote here for the Gunslinger, but I'm biased because of the last one I made. Standard New West Gunslinger with minor psi powers, specifically Sixth Sense and I think Teleport Object (can't remember the other for certain, it was so long ago) topped off with an interesting addition that the GM allowed me for coming up with a decent backstory. (He was raised by Spirit West Indians as a child and managed to attract the attention of a totem animal, Rattlesnake) In a part of the world where the Initiative roll decided so much, this guy reigned supreme with a total first round Initiative bonus of +17, +11 afterward because the Sixth Sense ability only works on the first round. In most gunfights, he even out-drew Juicers and Psi-Slingers on a regular basis.

You never see a Saddle Tramp coming...

Rappanui wrote:

Gamer wrote:

Rappanui wrote:main reason the psi slinger wins, he turns all the opponents attacks into SDC and can negate Everyone's advantages with psionics.

Nope.
Reread it again.
Page 98 new west special ability 3.

what's to read: He turns all their MDC Attacks (Which will be under 60 MDC) into SDC.
He wins.

All energy attacks.

Giant2005 wrote:

Rappanui wrote:

Gamer wrote:

Rappanui wrote:main reason the psi slinger wins, he turns all the opponents attacks into SDC and can negate Everyone's advantages with psionics.

Nope.
Reread it again.
Page 98 new west special ability 3.

what's to read: He turns all their MDC Attacks (Which will be under 60 MDC) into SDC.
He wins.

All energy attacks.

EXACTLY!

Rappanui wrote:his TK Fields and any possible armor still puts him over the top. The only way to outdo him is to use guns that are enchanted with explosive rounds.. a feat only the gun master will have access to.

Wrong again.

Do yourself a favor and go read it before posting again.

Rappanui wrote:what on earth do you think Gunslingers will be Shooting at each other with ? NE-2 Superheavy 2 Revolvers ? (for 2d4x10 Per shot). Perhaps your version of this scenario is them firing at each other with dOminator Nova Pistols for 2d4x100 MD each shot?

they will be using 2-5d6 lasers, Even the Particle beam pistol tops at 6d6. the gun masters Chi Guns all do 1/3rd damage outside of china.

Having Enchanted bullets? ... That might work, except psi slingers are not supernatural and you're dishing out sdc damage to a MDC protected target.
unless you're an apok or sea inquisitor, you won't be doing x100 damage with any pistol.

SLAP pistol ammo (Explosive MD Rounds) stop at 3d6 MD.
if all stats being equal, the psi slinger wins.
the gunmaster is a distant 2nd, because of all his MD Layering and his ability to do gun katas.

actually I'd be using a Benelli M3 with the ramjet rounds from Juicer Uprising.

Also, since the Gunmaster gets the equivalent of all modern weapon proficiencies, with the exception of heavy weapons, he is also able to out gun a Psi-Slinger in pure versatility. Most of the Psi-Slinger bonuses only apply to handguns and energy pistols. Also the Gunmaster can take an SDC gun and make it MDC capable by expending 2 isp a round in which the gun is used. He also has a wide array of sharpshooting / trick shooting capabilities and can dual wield guns (I believe, I am not currently looking at the book), which means he can massively out damage a Psi-Slinger in ranged combat. All of that is available at first level. If we were to pump him up to 15th it would be even more of a massacre due to all of his ridiculous bonuses from Gun Kata. In addition to this, most China Geofront Chi based OCCs take penalties from being removed from the china setting, but the Gunmaster doesn't. Making him one of the most powerful ranged classes around. His only downside is he gets no Ancient weapon proficiencies, not that he needs them, considering he has the choice of 4 (might be wrong here, I think it's only 3) different specialty Martial Arts, which all have awesome bonuses themselves.

One of the few downsides to this character is the range of SDC weapons, which usually have considerably less range than their MDC or energy counterparts, luckily there is an ability of the Gunmaster to double the effective range of a gun for one melee round, or just teleport a rifle into his waiting hands and use that.

In hand to hand he can also use a gun strike attack that does damage to MD opponents. That's ALL MD opponents, not just supernatural. Meaning if it's MD armored he can attack it using this attack. The Gunmaster also has so many attacks that it is literally ridiculous. PLUS he has no need to link with a weapon to do any extra damage with it (hint hint, a Psi-Slinger requires a linked weapon and can only link with up to three at a time).

This is what makes a Gunmaster the most formidable gunman around.

Rappanui wrote:Ok. So I read the ability: The Conversion happens on attacks that do Less then 30 MD and only Energy:
That means Plasma and Particle beam weapons will be dropped to SDC/0 MD unless it's a critical hit!..
this advantage still goes to the psi slinger! Psi slinger also has A variety of Psionics (like Sixth Sense, Telekinesis, and Psi sword, and (Psychic body field is an available) selection.
Their Skill bonuses are equal or superior to that of the gun slinger. The only way to lose to a normal gun slinger is one that has superabilities above and beyond a normal Gun slinger. (like say, one with Danger Sense Minor power).


Now a Gun master has so much mdc it's not even funny, so unless you're dual shotgunning nova pistols, You're not gonna kill one in one shot.

I think you are confusing the Gun Master with the Gun Brother.
The only MDC a Gun Master has is from a skin graft that gives about 30 MDC(ish) unless he is a naturally MDC race of course but that would apply to everyone.
The Gun Master is best described as a Gunslinger on crack. It is a Gunslinger with bonuses above the usual sharpshooting including extra strike bonuses, several extra attacks per melee, extended range and some supernatural abilities like the ability to turn SD guns into MD guns.
The most notable ability that makes the Gun Master leaps and bounds more impressive than his peers is the fact that all the other Dual-Wielders are limited to handguns. The Gun Master can dual wield Rifles.
Nothing in that list compares very favourably to the Gun Master.

I just want to say that 1s happen and so do natural 20s so no matter how BA one might think a particular class is there will all ways be a chance for the other guy

Gamer wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

Rappanui wrote:

Gamer wrote:

Rappanui wrote:main reason the psi slinger wins, he turns all the opponents attacks into SDC and can negate Everyone's advantages with psionics.

Nope.
Reread it again.
Page 98 new west special ability 3.

what's to read: He turns all their MDC Attacks (Which will be under 60 MDC) into SDC.
He wins.

All energy attacks.

EXACTLY!

Given most pistol users are probably packing lasers/ion pistols/tw pistols or plasma pistols it really does give the psi slinger a pretty big advantage. Still good demonstration of why you should always keep at least one or two kinetic weapons on you pesky magic/psi people immune to energy.

kaid wrote:Given most pistol users are probably packing lasers/ion pistols/tw pistols or plasma pistols it really does give the psi slinger a pretty big advantage. Still good demonstration of why you should always keep at least one or two kinetic weapons on you pesky magic/psi people immune to energy.

The problem with this is the Psi-slinger's greatest competition is already the Gun Master and the Gun Master is also the one OCC up there that isn't subject to the Slinger's energy resistance.
It would help him against the others but against the Master, he is as much a victim as the others.

Given most pistol users are probably packing lasers/ion pistols/tw pistols or plasma pistols it really does give the psi slinger a pretty big advantage. Still good demonstration of why you should always keep at least one or two kinetic weapons on you pesky magic/psi people immune to energy.

The psi-slinger takes frull damage from all magic based attack, such as a tw pistol. I just wanted to correct that really quick, as well as add to the fact that the Gunmaster, even if he is carrying around an energy weapon, would switch it out in favor of a slug thrower almost immediately. One of the best powers he has is that he can teleport a gun to him remotley, without need of line-of-sight. So the Psi-Slinger gets what, maybe a couple attacks on the Gunmaster, and then the Gunmaster opens up with a lot of MD damage because his powers allow a straight conversion of SDC to MD damage. (ex. 3D6 SDC = 3D6 MD) The last Gunmaster I had eneded up doing a lot of damage with a rifle-style grenade launcher and a pistol with specialized rounds. (Custom rounds from the Weapons Compendium ended up doing 1D6 x 10 SDC = 1D6 x 10 MDC with the Gunmaster's powers). Also the Gunmaster can dual wield any gun with the exception of heavy weapons, which he can't use at all. I honestly cannot see how the Psi-Slinger has any advantage over the Gunmaster, the Psi-Slinger in a side-by-side comparison of the two, is just a weaker form of the Gunmaster. By level 15 the Gunmaster has most of the same natural abilities as the Psi-Slinger, only with the exception of the negate energy attacks, and all of the Gunmasters are more powerfull than the Psi-Slinger.

GenThunderfist wrote:

Given most pistol users are probably packing lasers/ion pistols/tw pistols or plasma pistols it really does give the psi slinger a pretty big advantage. Still good demonstration of why you should always keep at least one or two kinetic weapons on you pesky magic/psi people immune to energy.

The psi-slinger takes frull damage from all magic based attack, such as a tw pistol. I just wanted to correct that really quick, as well as add to the fact that the Gunmaster, even if he is carrying around an energy weapon, would switch it out in favor of a slug thrower almost immediately. One of the best powers he has is that he can teleport a gun to him remotley, without need of line-of-sight. So the Psi-Slinger gets what, maybe a couple attacks on the Gunmaster, and then the Gunmaster opens up with a lot of MD damage because his powers allow a straight conversion of SDC to MD damage. (ex. 3D6 SDC = 3D6 MD) The last Gunmaster I had eneded up doing a lot of damage with a rifle-style grenade launcher and a pistol with specialized rounds. (Custom rounds from the Weapons Compendium ended up doing 1D6 x 10 SDC = 1D6 x 10 MDC with the Gunmaster's powers). Also the Gunmaster can dual wield any gun with the exception of heavy weapons, which he can't use at all. I honestly cannot see how the Psi-Slinger has any advantage over the Gunmaster, the Psi-Slinger in a side-by-side comparison of the two, is just a weaker form of the Gunmaster. By level 15 the Gunmaster has most of the same natural abilities as the Psi-Slinger, only with the exception of the negate energy attacks, and all of the Gunmasters are more powerfull than the Psi-Slinger.

SDoemthing else worth mentioning is that even if the Gun Master doesn't play to his strengths, he can still use energy weapons and still beat the Psi Slinger toe to toe with ease.
The most damaging weapons the Slinger can dual-wield is the NE-202 Pistol. It averages 35MD a shot or 70MD per attack by DWing.
The most damaging weapons the Master cab dual-wield is the NE-75H Rifle. It averages 70MD a shot or 140MD per attack by DWing.
Against the Psi-Slinger, that 140MD would be reduced by half and inflict only 70MD which seems they would have the same damage potential. The difference is that the Gun Master also has higher strike bonuses and several more actions per melee. Even when using energy weapons, the Gun Master still out-classes the Psi-Slinger.

kaid wrote:

Gamer wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:main reason the psi slinger wins, he turns all the opponents attacks into SDC and can negate Everyone's advantages with psionics.

Nope.
Reread it again.
Page 98 new west special ability 3.

what's to read: He turns all their MDC Attacks (Which will be under 60 MDC) into SDC.
He wins.

All energy attacks.
EXACTLY!

Given most pistol users are probably packing lasers/ion pistols/tw pistols or plasma pistols it really does give the psi slinger a pretty big advantage. Still good demonstration of why you should always keep at least one or two kinetic weapons on you pesky magic/psi people immune to energy.

Not sure why you would think that with gun men type classes as i would think they would carry a small array of weapons, sdc, slug throwers and energy weapons.

But to add, a gun master standard loadout at 1st would carry 1 pair energy pistols, 1 pair sdc slug throwers / sub machinegunes, 2 Rifles (1 MD, 1 SDC which can easily be converted to do MDso that he could dual wield). Just on this load out a gun master pretty much has the right tool to deal with any other gunman easy.

Then if the Gun Master takes dog boxing, it gives them side flip that is a auto dodge hybrid, on the defensive side i think side flip is superior which would also mean the psi slingers attacks would only be doing half damage to the gun master but reverse that and the GM can take the slinger apart.

Definitly (at least for me) the PSI-Slinger

Gamer wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

Rappanui wrote:

Gamer wrote:

Rappanui wrote:main reason the psi slinger wins, he turns all the opponents attacks into SDC and can negate Everyone's advantages with psionics.

Nope.
Reread it again.
Page 98 new west special ability 3.

what's to read: He turns all their MDC Attacks (Which will be under 60 MDC) into SDC.
He wins.

All energy attacks.

EXACTLY!

Not many MD slug throwers outside of railguns. (there are some, just not many), so he just eliminated almost all of his lethal incoming damage. And even energy attacks over 60MDC are going to be hard to come by, particle beam rifle critical hits ect.

Display-Name-Alpha wrote:Not many MD slug throwers outside of railguns. (there are some, just not many), so he just eliminated almost all of his lethal incoming damage. And even energy attacks over 60MDC are going to be hard to come by, particle beam rifle critical hits ect.

Yeah, first of all it's 30 MDC as stated in the book and in this very topic thread multiple times, so that's covered. Second the Gunmaster (again as stated in the book and in this thread multiple times) can make ANY sdc gun MD capable in a straight conversion of sd damage into md damage (ex 6D6 SDC = 6D6 MDC) so all of that "lethal incoming damage" that the Psi-Slinger negated has been tripled by the shear mass of available high sdc damage guns.

Ninjabunny wrote:

GenThunderfist wrote:

Display-Name-Alpha wrote:Not many MD slug throwers outside of railguns. (there are some, just not many), so he just eliminated almost all of his lethal incoming damage. And even energy attacks over 60MDC are going to be hard to come by, particle beam rifle critical hits ect.

Yeah, first of all it's 30 MDC as stated in the book and in this very topic thread multiple times, so that's covered. Second the Gunmaster (again as stated in the book and in this thread multiple times) can make ANY sdc gun MD capable in a straight conversion of sd damage into md damage (ex 6D6 SDC = 6D6 MDC) so all of that "lethal incoming damage" that the Psi-Slinger negated has been tripled by the shear mass of available high sdc damage guns.

yeah but they are handicap outside china...

I understand that, but even with the decreased chi prowess they would still ne formidable and could outfight any of the other occs. I mean the handicap doesn't reduce them to crying and sitting in the fetal position all day, and they still do plenty of damage.

Ninjabunny wrote:

GenThunderfist wrote:

Display-Name-Alpha wrote:Not many MD slug throwers outside of railguns. (there are some, just not many), so he just eliminated almost all of his lethal incoming damage. And even energy attacks over 60MDC are going to be hard to come by, particle beam rifle critical hits ect.

Yeah, first of all it's 30 MDC as stated in the book and in this very topic thread multiple times, so that's covered. Second the Gunmaster (again as stated in the book and in this thread multiple times) can make ANY sdc gun MD capable in a straight conversion of sd damage into md damage (ex 6D6 SDC = 6D6 MDC) so all of that "lethal incoming damage" that the Psi-Slinger negated has been tripled by the shear mass of available high sdc damage guns.

yeah but they are handicap outside china...

They aren't handicapped outside of China. Outside of China their powers are reduced.
It might sound the same but it isn't - handicapped has connotations that do not apply.
Even outside of China the Gun Master still has more MDC, more attacks, higher strike bonuses, more range and the ability to dual-wield Rifles.
Outside of China, they still have all of the abilities of their peers and at a superior level, the fact that some of their abilities that are in excess of their peers are marginally reduced is inconsequential.

If the Gun master has dog boxing then at 1st level they have side flip which means they have auto dodge when successfully dodging an attack, or at worst they only suffer HALF damage on a failed dodge.

That right there gives them an advantage over some of the others, like the psi-slinger.

The reason they are 'reduced' a bit outside of China is because they are considered that much more powerful overall, so to make them a bit more fair compared to the other gunmen.

Pilot with an Ulti-Max

Well this might start an argument, but I seem to recall there was some disagreement regarding the Gun Master's strike bonus. Don't know if it ever really got settled or changed in later printings to be more clear. So let's see if I recall this correctly:


At 1st level they get a +2 to strike, plus whatever they get from their Sharpshooting "Aimed" shot bonus.


The disagreement was divided into two camps from that point on -

1. The Gun Master gets that +2 to strike at levels 1, 4, 8, 12 and 15. At 10th level they get another +1 to strike with guns.

2. The Gun Master gets the +2 to strike at level 1 ONLY! At 10th level they get the other +1 to strike, for a grand total of +3 to strike with guns. This is due to the fact that the strike bonus listed is followed by a semi-colon, and the ranged disarm bonuses are listed for it separately. The whole "One with the Gun" ability functioned as sort of a HU-styled Natural Combat Ability (which incidentally only ever gets a +2 strike bonus with a weapon).


(It should also be noted that when China 2 was written, we still had just the original Rifts Main Book, and followed its skill selection rules. This meant of course that the Gun Master was completely unable to select any type of a WP to augment his skill bonuses. Of course now we have RUE, which uses a different method of skill selection.)

Dustin Fireblade wrote:Well this might start an argument, but I seem to recall there was some disagreement regarding the Gun Master's strike bonus. Don't know if it ever really got settled or changed in later printings to be more clear. So let's see if I recall this correctly:


At 1st level they get a +2 to strike, plus whatever they get from their Sharpshooting "Aimed" shot bonus.


The disagreement was divided into two camps from that point on -

1. The Gun Master gets that +2 to strike at levels 1, 4, 8, 12 and 15. At 10th level they get another +1 to strike with guns.

2. The Gun Master gets the +2 to strike at level 1 ONLY! At 10th level they get the other +1 to strike, for a grand total of +3 to strike with guns. This is due to the fact that the strike bonus listed is followed by a semi-colon, and the ranged disarm bonuses are listed for it separately. The whole "One with the Gun" ability functioned as sort of a HU-styled Natural Combat Ability (which incidentally only ever gets a +2 strike bonus with a weapon).


(It should also be noted that when China 2 was written, we still had just the original Rifts Main Book, and followed its skill selection rules. This meant of course that the Gun Master was completely unable to select any type of a WP to augment his skill bonuses. Of course now we have RUE, which uses a different method of skill selection.)

The Gun Master's strike bonus is in addition to the usual WP bonuses.

Giant2005 wrote:

Dustin Fireblade wrote:Well this might start an argument, but I seem to recall there was some disagreement regarding the Gun Master's strike bonus. Don't know if it ever really got settled or changed in later printings to be more clear. So let's see if I recall this correctly:


At 1st level they get a +2 to strike, plus whatever they get from their Sharpshooting "Aimed" shot bonus.


The disagreement was divided into two camps from that point on -

1. The Gun Master gets that +2 to strike at levels 1, 4, 8, 12 and 15. At 10th level they get another +1 to strike with guns.

2. The Gun Master gets the +2 to strike at level 1 ONLY! At 10th level they get the other +1 to strike, for a grand total of +3 to strike with guns. This is due to the fact that the strike bonus listed is followed by a semi-colon, and the ranged disarm bonuses are listed for it separately. The whole "One with the Gun" ability functioned as sort of a HU-styled Natural Combat Ability (which incidentally only ever gets a +2 strike bonus with a weapon).


(It should also be noted that when China 2 was written, we still had just the original Rifts Main Book, and followed its skill selection rules. This meant of course that the Gun Master was completely unable to select any type of a WP to augment his skill bonuses. Of course now we have RUE, which uses a different method of skill selection.)

The Gun Master's strike bonus is in addition to the usual WP bonuses.

What WP's?

There are NONE listed in their OCC Skill list, and they cannot select any as a Related skill. Also as mentioned the Gun Master was created per the old RMB, so their secondary skill selection is the same as their Related options, ie they cannot select any WP's.

Dustin Fireblade wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

Dustin Fireblade wrote:Well this might start an argument, but I seem to recall there was some disagreement regarding the Gun Master's strike bonus. Don't know if it ever really got settled or changed in later printings to be more clear. So let's see if I recall this correctly:


At 1st level they get a +2 to strike, plus whatever they get from their Sharpshooting "Aimed" shot bonus.


The disagreement was divided into two camps from that point on -

1. The Gun Master gets that +2 to strike at levels 1, 4, 8, 12 and 15. At 10th level they get another +1 to strike with guns.

2. The Gun Master gets the +2 to strike at level 1 ONLY! At 10th level they get the other +1 to strike, for a grand total of +3 to strike with guns. This is due to the fact that the strike bonus listed is followed by a semi-colon, and the ranged disarm bonuses are listed for it separately. The whole "One with the Gun" ability functioned as sort of a HU-styled Natural Combat Ability (which incidentally only ever gets a +2 strike bonus with a weapon).


(It should also be noted that when China 2 was written, we still had just the original Rifts Main Book, and followed its skill selection rules. This meant of course that the Gun Master was completely unable to select any type of a WP to augment his skill bonuses. Of course now we have RUE, which uses a different method of skill selection.)

The Gun Master's strike bonus is in addition to the usual WP bonuses.

What WP's?

There are NONE listed in their OCC Skill list, and they cannot select any as a Related skill. Also as mentioned the Gun Master was created per the old RMB, so their secondary skill selection is the same as their Related options, ie they cannot select any WP's.

They have Sharpshooting so they obviously have the requirements of Sharpshooting which is the WPs.
Otherwise they, like the Operator, would be reduced to talentless hacks that don't possess the skills required of their chosen crafts.

Besides, The Galactus Kid has already asked Kev about this issue.

The Galactus Kid wrote:I've asked Kevin about this. He told me directly that the gun masters DO have the W.P. for any gun they use.

Giant2005 wrote:They have Sharpshooting so they obviously have the requirements of Sharpshooting which is the WPs.
Otherwise they, like the Operator, would be reduced to talentless hacks that don't possess the skills required of their chosen crafts.

Besides, The Galactus Kid has already asked Kev about this issue.

The Galactus Kid wrote:I've asked Kevin about this. He told me directly that the gun masters DO have the W.P. for any gun they use.

Hmm well I thought they simply had the equivalent to sharpshooting as part of their mystic martial arts training, and simply duplicated the effects of the sharpshooting skill.


Do you have a link to this quote btw? Apparently there was some conversation about this topic that I missed (or simply forgot about).

Dustin Fireblade wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:They have Sharpshooting so they obviously have the requirements of Sharpshooting which is the WPs.
Otherwise they, like the Operator, would be reduced to talentless hacks that don't possess the skills required of their chosen crafts.

Besides, The Galactus Kid has already asked Kev about this issue.

The Galactus Kid wrote:I've asked Kevin about this. He told me directly that the gun masters DO have the W.P. for any gun they use.

Hmm well I thought they simply had the equivalent to sharpshooting as part of their mystic martial arts training, and simply duplicated the effects of the sharpshooting skill.


Do you have a link to this quote btw? Apparently there was some conversation about this topic that I missed (or simply forgot about).

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=77799
It doesn't go into any more detail than what I just posted. Would have to ask GK for further clarification.

RUE says to use the new secondary skill rules for pre-RUE OCCs on page 300.

--flatline

Giant2005 wrote:

Do you have a link to this quote btw? Apparently there was some conversation about this topic that I missed (or simply forgot about).

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=77799
It doesn't go into any more detail than what I just posted. Would have to ask GK for further clarification.[/quote]


Thanks.

Yep I must have forgot all about that. I was in that thread too.

Of course GK never did answer me....

Rappanui wrote:I don't see how the gun master is able to fire his guns while not in posession of them. (Simple TK) gets rid of his weapons. you have to remember a psi slinger at lvl 15 Has Other Master psionic powers and will likely have the ability to instantly Disarm the Gun master with only 10 to 20 isp.
as for the gunmaster OCC bonus, I think I prefer he gets +2 to strike +1 disarm and initiative at each of the levels listed in #2.
but yes, the gun master would kick his ass, but unlikely to be met on the same field, and unlikely to be using Weapons outside of their origin.

The Psi-Slinger could telekinesis the guns away maybe but the Gum Master could teleport them right back.
I imagine it would make for an extremely dull battle if they kept up that loop for long .

Rappanui wrote:I don't see how the gun master is able to fire his guns while not in posession of them. (Simple TK) gets rid of his weapons. you have to remember a psi slinger at lvl 15 Has Other Master psionic powers and will likely have the ability to instantly Disarm the Gun master with only 10 to 20 isp.
as for the gunmaster OCC bonus, I think I prefer he gets +2 to strike +1 disarm and initiative at each of the levels listed in #2.
but yes, the gun master would kick his ass, but unlikely to be met on the same field, and unlikely to be using Weapons outside of their origin.

It isnt as simple as Darth Vader ripping han solo's blaster out of his hand with tk minor or even major for that point. You still have to make a disarm roll but instead of getting all the gun bonuses to make that disarm you are using the flat bonus of TK which is prolly alot less.

The gun master can disarm as well, even gets bonuses to it.

Even if you did disarm the guns from a gun master, he can
a) Just pull out another pair of them,
b) Use his class ability to "tk" them back in his hand (assuming he is high enough lvl)

Ninjabunny wrote:[/color]U m the gun master can not take someone elses gun and can not bring one to his hands until 7th level. Psi-slinger doesn't have that issue.

I never claimed that he could "take" someone else guns.

Ok one thing that is just overkill for Gun Master is at first level he can do

MP-23A SMG from Mercenaries fairly cheap and easy to get
2dx10 per gun so paired guns double that or 4d6x10 for 1 attack

it gets better, use the DU rounds which are really cheap in comparison to charging a eclip.
3d6x10 per gun or 6d6x10 paired

so not a chance that any other gunman here can compete with this.

Ninjabunny wrote:

Nether wrote:Ok one thing that is just overkill for Gun Master is at first level he can do

MP-23A SMG from Mercenaries fairly cheap and easy to get
2dx10 per gun so paired guns double that or 4d6x10 for 1 attack

it gets better, use the DU rounds which are really cheap in comparison to charging a eclip.
3d6x10 per gun or 6d6x10 paired

so not a chance that any other gunman here can compete with this.

If your talking duel weilding gunfighters and gunslingers can do that too.

What he's saying is that the Gun Master can take an sdc smg and do Boom Gun MD with it

Ninjabunny wrote:

Faceless Dude wrote:

Ninjabunny wrote:

Nether wrote:Ok one thing that is just overkill for Gun Master is at first level he can do

MP-23A SMG from Mercenaries fairly cheap and easy to get
2dx10 per gun so paired guns double that or 4d6x10 for 1 attack

it gets better, use the DU rounds which are really cheap in comparison to charging a eclip.
3d6x10 per gun or 6d6x10 paired

so not a chance that any other gunman here can compete with this.

If your talking duel weilding gunfighters and gunslingers can do that too.

What he's saying is that the Gun Master can take an sdc smg and do Boom Gun MD with it

Only in china, it's a Chi based Power and is greatly hampered outside of the mists of china. The Gunmaster is awesome inside china outside it's not as effective.

This is not affected at all by the 'outside china' rules. The power doesnt do damage, the gun does. The duration of converting is affected but how many attacks do you need at this damage to obliterate everything

A gunslinger/fighter can't convert sdc to mdc, the psi slinger can only convert up to 15 bullets to mdc so they can do the burst as it requires 20, but the GM is not hampered at all with this.

It is so crazy powerful that it is OP. But this will still own every gunmans face as he only needs to land 1 attack.

Ninjabunny wrote:

Nether wrote:

Ninjabunny wrote:

Ninjabunny wrote:

Nether wrote:Ok one thing that is just overkill for Gun Master is at first level he can do

MP-23A SMG from Mercenaries fairly cheap and easy to get
2dx10 per gun so paired guns double that or 4d6x10 for 1 attack

it gets better, use the DU rounds which are really cheap in comparison to charging a eclip.
3d6x10 per gun or 6d6x10 paired

so not a chance that any other gunman here can compete with this.

If your talking duel weilding gunfighters and gunslingers can do that too.

What he's saying is that the Gun Master can take an sdc smg and do Boom Gun MD with it
Only in china, it's a Chi based Power and is greatly hampered outside of the mists of china. The Gunmaster is awesome inside china outside it's not as effective.

This is not affected at all by the 'outside china' rules. The power doesnt do damage, the gun does. The duration of converting is affected but how many attacks do you need at this damage to obliterate everything

A gunslinger/fighter can't convert sdc to mdc, the psi slinger can only convert up to 15 bullets to mdc so they can do the burst as it requires 20, but the GM is not hampered at all with this.

It is so crazy powerful that it is OP. But this will still own every gunmans face as he only needs to land 1 attack.

Sorry but it states that they use Chi to make the gun fire sdc rounds as mdc so outside of china they aren't going to get that power or ability.

Uhm what are you talking about?
Yes they use Chi to activate the ability. The Gun Masters Chi outside of China is halved, which is nothing to do with how effective the ability is.

The rules specifically state what is affected and most of them reduce some of the bonuses they get by x or halve them.
This powers duration and range are halved, and sinse the power does not do any damage it isnt affected. There is no "halving" the effect. It isn't listed so you need to look up the rules and actually read them instead of throwing out OMG no goodz!!
If YOU want to take the power away that is fine, but that is Your house rule. But by that you might as well take away the psi slingers ability as well as it is almost the same thing and by using 3 rnd bursts they do double damage with pistols.

Flooper Vagabond.

Nether wrote:Yes they use Chi to activate the ability. The Gun Masters Chi outside of China is halved, which is nothing to do with how effective the ability is.

The rules specifically state what is affected and most of them reduce some of the bonuses they get by x or halve them.
This powers duration and range are halved, and sinse the power does not do any damage it isnt affected. There is no "halving" the effect. It isn't listed so you need to look up the rules and actually read them instead of throwing out OMG no goodz!!
If YOU want to take the power away that is fine, but that is Your house rule. But by that you might as well take away the psi slingers ability as well as it is almost the same thing and by using 3 rnd bursts they do double damage with pistols.

Uh, pistols aren't fully automatic unless it specifically says so under the weapon. Most pistols are semi-automatic, meaning you can't squeeze the trigger for a burst effect. In the real world, only the Glock and a couple of others actually do this.

Now what Rifts really needs are rules for "fanning the trigger." That would make more sense than a fully automatic revolver or energy pistol.

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Shorty Lickens wrote:Pilot with an Ulti-Max

Or the grenadier out of Japan.

Both of you suck, The real answer is the Triax X-4500.

Johnnycat93 wrote:

SAMASzero wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Shorty Lickens wrote:Pilot with an Ulti-Max

Or the grenadier out of Japan.

Both of you suck, The real answer is the Triax X-4500.

But an automatic grenade launcherrrrrr, I mean c'mon 5d6x8 for AP grenades! Plus you can get triple damage on a critical strike, and the missiles are just icing on the cake!

Besides that the rules for AP are awesome because even on a modified roll of 17-20 you get the double damage bonuses. So if you just tape a bunch of wilks laser targets to your gun...

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Sorry but it states that they use Chi to make the gun fire sdc rounds as mdc so outside of china they aren't going to get that power or ability.

Regardless, the china 2 book has a section about chi/isp used outside of a china setting and none of them completely remove a power, they just reduce the effectiveness.

So, to that effect, the range would be reduced and the damage would be halved. So if you look at that 6D6 x 10 dual wielding senario, you would only be doing 3D6 x 10, or a max of 360 MDC a shot. Yeah, he really is ineffective outside of china. I don't know why I swear by him.

Johnnycat93 wrote:

GenThunderfist wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Sorry but it states that they use Chi to make the gun fire sdc rounds as mdc so outside of china they aren't going to get that power or ability.

Regardless, the china 2 book has a section about chi/isp used outside of a china setting and none of them completely remove a power, they just reduce the effectiveness.

So, to that effect, the range would be reduced and the damage would be halved. So if you look at that 6D6 x 10 dual wielding senario, you would only be doing 3D6 x 10, or a max of 360 MDC a shot. Yeah, he really is ineffective outside of china. I don't know why I swear by him.

Plus Psi-Slingers can't dual wield sub-machine guns, only pistols and revolvers.

Yeah the Gunmaster has every Modern WP except for heavy weapons, and I believe that he also has sharpshooting/trickshooting for every Modern WP he has, it works out to a nice advantage

a Mulka with a pistol

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Sorry but it states that they use Chi to make the gun fire sdc rounds as mdc so outside of china they aren't going to get that power or ability.

Regardless, the china 2 book has a section about chi/isp used outside of a china setting and none of them completely remove a power, they just reduce the effectiveness.

China 2 makes me want to hurt people very badly since the way it is written is basically saying "Yeah, we know this is power creep, but with this handy little rule it's NOT power creep!" Or, you know, someone could buck the trend and make a book that doesn't need such a ruling (i.e. Rifts Australia). Anyway, mini-rant over with.

PSI-Slinger, nuff said.

torkair wrote:

GenThunderfist wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Sorry but it states that they use Chi to make the gun fire sdc rounds as mdc so outside of china they aren't going to get that power or ability.

Regardless, the china 2 book has a section about chi/isp used outside of a china setting and none of them completely remove a power, they just reduce the effectiveness.

So, to that effect, the range would be reduced and the damage would be halved. So if you look at that 6D6 x 10 dual wielding senario, you would only be doing 3D6 x 10, or a max of 360 MDC a shot. Yeah, he really is ineffective outside of china. I don't know why I swear by him.

Ultimately the duration of the SDC to MDC ability is reduced by half. The ability is NOT doing the damage, the weapon is, the rate of damage is just altered. The Gun Master is broke as all hell when compared to just about ANY other class or race in the game, which is why that particular OCC is banned within my game group. As for disarming the Gun Master... Well that's why retractable lanyards were invented XD

@
The duration is instant, it instantly makes your weapon do md. And it's "damage" is based off the weapon, but it is the power that causes the damage. The power does Mdc, the gun is only capable of sdc, all the time. There is no way(short of ramjets) an sdc gun does md, hence only the power makes it md, meaning the damage of the attack originates in the psionic power, not the weapon. This gives it half damage. Without the power sdc. With the power Mdc.

Ice Dragon wrote: Psi-Slinger 'nuff said.

No, that is not enough said. You gave no evidence to support your claim, especially while others are debating that still. That would be like saying Gun Master 'niff said. That's not contributing anything to the debate at hand!

I picked the Juicer Assassin out of Juicer Uprising but I haven't defended it as fervently as some others and their choices. I still think that the enhanced reflexes, a JA-11 / 12, some decent rolls -- he's gonna pick the other combatants apart. Especially someone like a Hyperion or a Mega. Maybe a Phaeton in a super-stealth PA suit? I dunno. I just can't see a Psi-slinger coming out on top. The Juicer is brutal...for the few years he's alive at any rate.

Balabanto wrote:

Nether wrote:Yes they use Chi to activate the ability. The Gun Masters Chi outside of China is halved, which is nothing to do with how effective the ability is.

The rules specifically state what is affected and most of them reduce some of the bonuses they get by x or halve them.
This powers duration and range are halved, and sinse the power does not do any damage it isnt affected. There is no "halving" the effect. It isn't listed so you need to look up the rules and actually read them instead of throwing out OMG no goodz!!
If YOU want to take the power away that is fine, but that is Your house rule. But by that you might as well take away the psi slingers ability as well as it is almost the same thing and by using 3 rnd bursts they do double damage with pistols.

Uh, pistols aren't fully automatic unless it specifically says so under the weapon. Most pistols are semi-automatic, meaning you can't squeeze the trigger for a burst effect. In the real world, only the Glock and a couple of others actually do this.

Now what Rifts really needs are rules for "fanning the trigger." That would make more sense than a fully automatic revolver or energy pistol.

I think this is pretty much why the RUE changes happened. The firing rates now are pretty much as listed single or burst and not the old short/long burst/full clip method. Frankly it was silly doing more damage with a pistol or rifle than you could with basically heavy tank weapons.