Invulnerability /Invincibility Solved!

[Akashic Soldier]

Hello,
I remember a long time ago there was a debate over how converting a HU power over to Rifts actually worked. I don't remember the wording but the argument was that it made you invincible and you ended up with X amount of M.D.C. for if you were hurt by conditions X,Y and Z.

Well, I just wanted to let everyone know that the canonical answer is that the power translates as a M.D.C. bonus on Rifts earth and nothing else. It is possessed by the lunatic calling himself Gabriel who works for the White Rose in Rifts World Book: Mad Haven and it is explained in his stats there.

I hope this has been of help to some of you that might have been confused about how the staff had intended for the power to work on Rifts Earth.

[Giant2005]

In my Madhaven book, he doesn't have Invulnerability.
He has Physical Perfection, Mega-Wings and Energy Expulsion: Light.

It is a first printing if that matters.

[Tinker Dragoon]

In my Madhaven book, he doesn't have Invulnerability.
He has Physical Perfection, Mega-Wings and Energy Expulsion: Light.

It is a first printing if that matters.

In the text before the stat block it says his powers included "Supernatural P.S., Heightened P.E., and Invulnerability," none of which is reflected in his stats (except supernatural P.S., which is probably just be the freebie version that comes with being a Mega-Hero). It looks to me as though the character started out much more powerful and got nerfed in editing.

Similar inconsistencies abound in Skraypers. Several characters have Invulnerability, but do not have the 700 M.D.C. specified in the converted power on p. 151 of the same book (or p. 47 of the original Conversion Book), instead adding their H.P. and S.D.C. together to calculate their M.D.C.

[glitterboy2098]

seriously, people argue over this when it actually got covered in a book?

Rifts Conversion Book 1 unrevised: pg47

Invulnerability
An Impressive power that makes the character an almost indestructible M.D.C. Juggernaut! Has a physical M.D.C. of 700 and regenerates 1D6x10 M.D.C. every minute (4 melees). gases, drugs, chemicals, poisons, toxins, and radiation will effect the invulnerable person, but are reduced to half their usual potenc (half damage, half duration, effect). The character is only, truely, vulnerable to psionics, magic, and magic weapons, all of which have full effect. Also add 1D6 to the P.E. and 1D4 to the P.S. attribute, and + 20% to save vs coma/death (this is in addition to any P.E. bonus).

did this not get included in the revised version or something?

[The Beast]

seriously, people argue over this when it actually got covered in a book?

Rifts Conversion Book 1 unrevised: pg47

Invulnerability
An Impressive power that makes the character an almost indestructible M.D.C. Juggernaut! Has a physical M.D.C. of 700 and regenerates 1D6x10 M.D.C. every minute (4 melees). gases, drugs, chemicals, poisons, toxins, and radiation will effect the invulnerable person, but are reduced to half their usual potenc (half damage, half duration, effect). The character is only, truely, vulnerable to psionics, magic, and magic weapons, all of which have full effect. Also add 1D6 to the P.E. and 1D4 to the P.S. attribute, and + 20% to save vs coma/death (this is in addition to any P.E. bonus).

did this not get included in the revised version or something?

The new CB1 says to combine HP & SDC.

[The Galactus Kid]

Whoa. Blast from the past. Let me dig up the original stats for this NPC and post them. You all can decide which version to use in your individual games. I also have a bunch of other White rose NPCs too.

[Akashic Soldier]

1. I absolutely LOVE Madhaven and I'm so happy that I set my game there.
2. I absolutely LOVE White Rose Knights (though they seem excessively powerful in comparison to everything else which I do not like).
3. Although I like their origins for some reason I'm trying to figure out I HATE Colt and Gabriel and I REALLY like heroic/noble characters but something about Colt (personally not how he has lived or what he has done) just makes me hate him and I can't pin why yet. Gabby is just more trouble than he's worth and someone like that is going to be their downfall and the reason they get exposed (which is why I hate him).

[DhAkael]

*shrug*
I've already established my own Madhaven well before the book came out.
That being said, the 'canon' book is good. I just don't need it is all.

As to the invulnerability issue? Its never come up.
Seriously... no one has been STUPID enough to even think of asking to play an invulnerable PC in my campaign. EVER.
Because;
1) I use the Un-revised *looks for high priced lawyers and Kevin Siembiada doing a Rumplestiltskin temper tamtrum* Conversion book 1 write up for super powahs..and yeah, it's not all that. Just a whack load of MDC, regeneration and half damage from conventional attacks. It does NOT make one immune to damage.
2) I would audit the PC so hard it would scream for the IRS to come put it out of its misery.

So yeah.

[flatline]

2) I would audit the PC so hard it would scream for the IRS to come put it out of its misery.

What do you mean when you say "audit the PC"?

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

seriously, people argue over this when it actually got covered in a book?

Rifts Conversion Book 1 unrevised: pg47

Invulnerability
An Impressive power that makes the character an almost indestructible M.D.C. Juggernaut! Has a physical M.D.C. of 700 and regenerates 1D6x10 M.D.C. every minute (4 melees). gases, drugs, chemicals, poisons, toxins, and radiation will effect the invulnerable person, but are reduced to half their usual potenc (half damage, half duration, effect). The character is only, truely, vulnerable to psionics, magic, and magic weapons, all of which have full effect. Also add 1D6 to the P.E. and 1D4 to the P.S. attribute, and + 20% to save vs coma/death (this is in addition to any P.E. bonus).

did this not get included in the revised version or something?

Part of the issue is that the conversion of the power does not specify whether that 700 MDC is in addition to actually being invulnerable, or whether it is in place of it.

Pretty much everybody thinks that the answer is obvious.
Pretty much everybody disagrees on what the answer IS.

My take on it is here:

Because the abbreviated translation of the power in CB1 does not specify that the character is invulnerable as a rule, some people read the text to mean that he is not, but those people are mistaken.
The 700 MDC does not replace the invulnerability of the HU version, it only replaces the boosted SDC, which is only part of the power.
Reading the rest of the CB1 description, notice that while it does not specify that the character is impervious to harm as a rule, it does specify the exceptions to that rule.
Gases, drugs, etc. "will affect the invulnerable person," is specified because as a rule, nothing else will.
For this same reason, the text specifies that the character is only vulnerable to psionics, magic, and magic weapons, which "have full effect."
This would not need to be stated if the character was simply an MDC being, with no actual invulnerability to anything.
It is stated because the Invulnerability power does in fact make one invulnerable, with a few listed exceptions.

And from later in that same thread:

It's actually clearly stated that the character is only truly vulnerable to psionics, magic, and magic weapons (and is partially vulnerable to gasses, etc.)
If you can think of another way to interpret that sentence logically, let me know.

Either the power description means:
a) The the character is invulnerable as a rule, but is partially vulnerable to gasses, etc., and is fully vulnerable to magic and psionics
or
b) The character is vulnerable as a rule, but is partially vulnerable to gasses, etc., and is vulnerable to magic and psionics.

The former makes sense.
The latter does not- there would be no reason to state vulnerability to magic/psionics if vulnerability were the natural state.

and:

If the GM looks at the text, sees that the character is an almost indestructible juggernaut, then sees a list of stated exceptions to the invulnerability, then decides that all this adds up to the character not being invulnerable, then the GM is wrong.
I mean, if you (or anybody) can show me another viable explanation of the power that fits the text, I'll listen, but if the character isn't invulnerable, why list vulnerabilities?
Why specify, "the character is only vulnerable to...." followed by a handful of specific examples, if he's vulnerable to everything as a rule?

and

Also, note that the power descriptions in CB1 often assume that the reader is familiar with the HU version of the power.
"Control Elemental Forces: Air," for example, doesn't list or describe the full extent of the powers, only refers to them.
Same with CEF: Earth, CEF: Water, and CEF: Fire.
Same with Darkness Control.
Same with Gravity Manipulation.
Same with Intangibility.
In many cases, there is a note along the lines of "all other aspects are unchanged."
This is because what CB1 does, for the most part, is describes the changes in the powers.
If it's not described in CB1, logically, it is not changed.

HU2 states:
"An impressive power that makes the character an almost indestructible juggernaut," just as CB1 does.
"The character is only, truly, venerable to psionics, spell magic, magic illusions and magic weapons, all of which have full effect," which is an only slightly less succinct version of what CB1 says.

[DhAkael]

2) I would audit the PC so hard it would scream for the IRS to come put it out of its misery.

What do you mean when you say "audit the PC"?

--flatline

exactly what I said; go over it line by line and number by number, making sure each book used in creation of the PC was open to the relevent section and making sure each and every "I" was dotted and "T" crossed by the letter and law of the books.
Yes. I HATE rules lawyers but when I have a player try and shaft my campiagn I will shaft 'em right back in the worst red-tape spewing beaurcratic way.

[Akashic Soldier]

seriously, people argue over this when it actually got covered in a book?

Rifts Conversion Book 1 unrevised: pg47

Invulnerability
An Impressive power that makes the character an almost indestructible M.D.C. Juggernaut! Has a physical M.D.C. of 700 and regenerates 1D6x10 M.D.C. every minute (4 melees). gases, drugs, chemicals, poisons, toxins, and radiation will effect the invulnerable person, but are reduced to half their usual potenc (half damage, half duration, effect). The character is only, truely, vulnerable to psionics, magic, and magic weapons, all of which have full effect. Also add 1D6 to the P.E. and 1D4 to the P.S. attribute, and + 20% to save vs coma/death (this is in addition to any P.E. bonus).

did this not get included in the revised version or something?

Part of the issue is that the conversion of the power does not specify whether that 700 MDC is in addition to actually being invulnerable, or whether it is in place of it.

Pretty much everybody thinks that the answer is obvious.
Pretty much everybody disagrees on what the answer IS.

My take on it is here:

Because the abbreviated translation of the power in CB1 does not specify that the character is invulnerable as a rule, some people read the text to mean that he is not, but those people are mistaken.
The 700 MDC does not replace the invulnerability of the HU version, it only replaces the boosted SDC, which is only part of the power.
Reading the rest of the CB1 description, notice that while it does not specify that the character is impervious to harm as a rule, it does specify the exceptions to that rule.
Gases, drugs, etc. "will affect the invulnerable person," is specified because as a rule, nothing else will.
For this same reason, the text specifies that the character is only vulnerable to psionics, magic, and magic weapons, which "have full effect."
This would not need to be stated if the character was simply an MDC being, with no actual invulnerability to anything.
It is stated because the Invulnerability power does in fact make one invulnerable, with a few listed exceptions.

And from later in that same thread:

It's actually clearly stated that the character is only truly vulnerable to psionics, magic, and magic weapons (and is partially vulnerable to gasses, etc.)
If you can think of another way to interpret that sentence logically, let me know.

Either the power description means:
a) The the character is invulnerable as a rule, but is partially vulnerable to gasses, etc., and is fully vulnerable to magic and psionics
or
b) The character is vulnerable as a rule, but is partially vulnerable to gasses, etc., and is vulnerable to magic and psionics.

The former makes sense.
The latter does not- there would be no reason to state vulnerability to magic/psionics if vulnerability were the natural state.

and:

If the GM looks at the text, sees that the character is an almost indestructible juggernaut, then sees a list of stated exceptions to the invulnerability, then decides that all this adds up to the character not being invulnerable, then the GM is wrong.
I mean, if you (or anybody) can show me another viable explanation of the power that fits the text, I'll listen, but if the character isn't invulnerable, why list vulnerabilities?
Why specify, "the character is only vulnerable to...." followed by a handful of specific examples, if he's vulnerable to everything as a rule?

and

Also, note that the power descriptions in CB1 often assume that the reader is familiar with the HU version of the power.
"Control Elemental Forces: Air," for example, doesn't list or describe the full extent of the powers, only refers to them.
Same with CEF: Earth, CEF: Water, and CEF: Fire.
Same with Darkness Control.
Same with Gravity Manipulation.
Same with Intangibility.
In many cases, there is a note along the lines of "all other aspects are unchanged."
This is because what CB1 does, for the most part, is describes the changes in the powers.
If it's not described in CB1, logically, it is not changed.

HU2 states:
"An impressive power that makes the character an almost indestructible juggernaut," just as CB1 does.
"The character is only, truly, venerable to psionics, spell magic, magic illusions and magic weapons, all of which have full effect," which is an only slightly less succinct version of what CB1 says.

All valid points but my friend you are overlooking something!

HU is an SDC environment. Lets imagine that you have a being with say 700 M.D.C. there... he's basically an unstoppable Juggernaut. You step things up to a place like Rifts earth where my moped is made out of a plastic 100 times more resilient than the bunker that they have to hide the president of the united states in and Mr. M.D. Juggernaut might seem like a solid wall of ass-kicking furry but maybe he's not quite so invincible anymore. I mean with the power of things on the planet... is anything really truly indestructible?

Rune weapons and magic excluded.

[flatline]

2) I would audit the PC so hard it would scream for the IRS to come put it out of its misery.

What do you mean when you say "audit the PC"?

--flatline

exactly what I said; go over it line by line and number by number, making sure each book used in creation of the PC was open to the relevent section and making sure each and every "I" was dotted and "T" crossed by the letter and law of the books.
Yes. I HATE rules lawyers but when I have a player try and shaft my campiagn I will shaft 'em right back in the worst red-tape spewing beaurcratic way.

Ah. All GMs eyeball new characters, but you're actually talking about recalculating bonuses, skills, and such. I don't think I've ever seen a GM be that thorough with a character before.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

seriously, people argue over this when it actually got covered in a book?

Rifts Conversion Book 1 unrevised: pg47

Invulnerability
An Impressive power that makes the character an almost indestructible M.D.C. Juggernaut! Has a physical M.D.C. of 700 and regenerates 1D6x10 M.D.C. every minute (4 melees). gases, drugs, chemicals, poisons, toxins, and radiation will effect the invulnerable person, but are reduced to half their usual potenc (half damage, half duration, effect). The character is only, truly, vulnerable to psionics, magic, and magic weapons, all of which have full effect. Also add 1D6 to the P.E. and 1D4 to the P.S. attribute, and + 20% to save vs coma/death (this is in addition to any P.E. bonus).

did this not get included in the revised version or something?

Part of the issue is that the conversion of the power does not specify whether that 700 MDC is in addition to actually being invulnerable, or whether it is in place of it.

Pretty much everybody thinks that the answer is obvious.
Pretty much everybody disagrees on what the answer IS.

My take on it is here:

Because the abbreviated translation of the power in CB1 does not specify that the character is invulnerable as a rule, some people read the text to mean that he is not, but those people are mistaken.
The 700 MDC does not replace the invulnerability of the HU version, it only replaces the boosted SDC, which is only part of the power.
Reading the rest of the CB1 description, notice that while it does not specify that the character is impervious to harm as a rule, it does specify the exceptions to that rule.
Gases, drugs, etc. "will affect the invulnerable person," is specified because as a rule, nothing else will.
For this same reason, the text specifies that the character is only vulnerable to psionics, magic, and magic weapons, which "have full effect."
This would not need to be stated if the character was simply an MDC being, with no actual invulnerability to anything.
It is stated because the Invulnerability power does in fact make one invulnerable, with a few listed exceptions.

And from later in that same thread:

It's actually clearly stated that the character is only truly vulnerable to psionics, magic, and magic weapons (and is partially vulnerable to gasses, etc.)
If you can think of another way to interpret that sentence logically, let me know.

Either the power description means:
a) The the character is invulnerable as a rule, but is partially vulnerable to gasses, etc., and is fully vulnerable to magic and psionics
or
b) The character is vulnerable as a rule, but is partially vulnerable to gasses, etc., and is vulnerable to magic and psionics.

The former makes sense.
The latter does not- there would be no reason to state vulnerability to magic/psionics if vulnerability were the natural state.

and:

If the GM looks at the text, sees that the character is an almost indestructible juggernaut, then sees a list of stated exceptions to the invulnerability, then decides that all this adds up to the character not being invulnerable, then the GM is wrong.
I mean, if you (or anybody) can show me another viable explanation of the power that fits the text, I'll listen, but if the character isn't invulnerable, why list vulnerabilities?
Why specify, "the character is only vulnerable to...." followed by a handful of specific examples, if he's vulnerable to everything as a rule?

and

Also, note that the power descriptions in CB1 often assume that the reader is familiar with the HU version of the power.
"Control Elemental Forces: Air," for example, doesn't list or describe the full extent of the powers, only refers to them.
Same with CEF: Earth, CEF: Water, and CEF: Fire.
Same with Darkness Control.
Same with Gravity Manipulation.
Same with Intangibility.
In many cases, there is a note along the lines of "all other aspects are unchanged."
This is because what CB1 does, for the most part, is describes the changes in the powers.
If it's not described in CB1, logically, it is not changed.

HU2 states:
"An impressive power that makes the character an almost indestructible juggernaut," just as CB1 does.
"The character is only, truly, venerable to psionics, spell magic, magic illusions and magic weapons, all of which have full effect," which is an only slightly less succinct version of what CB1 says.

All valid points but my friend you are overlooking something!

HU is an SDC environment. Lets imagine that you have a being with say 700 M.D.C. there... he's basically an unstoppable Juggernaut. You step things up to a place like Rifts earth where my moped is made out of a plastic 100 times more resilient than the bunker that they have to hide the president of the united states in and Mr. M.D. Juggernaut might seem like a solid wall of ass-kicking furry but maybe he's not quite so invincible anymore. I mean with the power of things on the planet... is anything really truly indestructible?

Rune weapons and magic excluded.

Invulnerable characters aren't MDC in an HU, only Rifts, so I don't know how that really affects anything.
Again, what it boils down to is:
1. The book lists vulnerabilities, which ONLY makes sense if the character is invulnerable to begin with.
So you'd have a situation where Captain Invulnerable has a weakness against poisons/toxins/radiations (they do 1/2 damage) in Heroes Unlimited, but then he goes to Rifts Earth, and suddenly he's resistant to poisons, toxins, radiations (they do 1/2 damage).
Which doesn't make much sense.
2. The Conversion Book doesn't alter the powers except as noted. There is no note that Invulnerable characters are no longer invulnerable. Therefore, they are still invulnerable.
The only real difference is that instead of receiving a bonus to physical SDC, they get a bonus to physical MDC.

[Akashic Soldier]

I don't think I've ever seen a GM be that thorough with a character before.

--flatline

*raises his hand*

Yo.

[Killer Cyborg]

Ah. All GMs eyeball new characters, but you're actually talking about recalculating bonuses, skills, and such. I don't think I've ever seen a GM be that thorough with a character before.

--flatline

I used to do it routinely, before I realized that everybody was likely to die regardless.
Then, as I got more experienced as a GM and player, I still did it from time to time, if I had reason to be suspicious of a player.

[flatline]

Ah. All GMs eyeball new characters, but you're actually talking about recalculating bonuses, skills, and such. I don't think I've ever seen a GM be that thorough with a character before.

--flatline

I used to do it routinely, before I realized that everybody was likely to die regardless.
Then, as I got more experienced as a GM and player, I still did it from time to time, if I had reason to be suspicious of a player.

The average life expectancy of a character in our Rifts campaigns was short enough that sometimes it wasn't even worth the player's time to calculate skill values unless the character actually survived long enough to level up...

Edit: now that I think about it, the GM would often approve the character concept and bring the character into play before anything was even written down on the character sheet, although if you didn't at least have your combat stats figured out by combat time, he'd contrive a reason to keep you out of it ("oops! the vehicle door is jammed! Won't unjam until you're done with your character...").

--flatline

[Akashic Soldier]

The average life expectancy of a character in our Rifts campaigns was short enough that sometimes it wasn't even worth the player's time to calculate skill values unless the character actually survived long enough to level up...

--flatline

What a nightmare! What were you guys up against?!

[flatline]

The average life expectancy of a character in our Rifts campaigns was short enough that sometimes it wasn't even worth the player's time to calculate skill values unless the character actually survived long enough to level up...

--flatline

What a nightmare! What were you guys up against?!

Mostly other players. We often had lots of inter-party conflict until we settled on a party whose members could tolerate each other.

--flatline

[kaid]

The average life expectancy of a character in our Rifts campaigns was short enough that sometimes it wasn't even worth the player's time to calculate skill values unless the character actually survived long enough to level up...

--flatline

What a nightmare! What were you guys up against?!

MDC weapons I would assume. If you are playing non power armor/borg/innate MDC critters one or two plasma blasts or pulse laser blasts has a good chance of killing anybody not in heavy body armor and they take maybe one or two more shots to kill.

[Akashic Soldier]

The average life expectancy of a character in our Rifts campaigns was short enough that sometimes it wasn't even worth the player's time to calculate skill values unless the character actually survived long enough to level up...

--flatline

What a nightmare! What were you guys up against?!

Mostly other players. We often had lots of inter-party conflict until we settled on a party whose members could tolerate each other.

--flatline

And that sounds like a game I would have rather drank poison than participated in. One of my biggest hang ups is player on player conflict. I like my players to band together against whatever hell I unleash against them. Not an attack on you buddy, just the situation is one that (from my point of view) seemed to suck in a big way!

[flatline]

Once you get into the campaign with a team that works well together, it matters little if they were the original characters or replacement characters. The party would usually stabilize by the 2nd or 3rd session of a campaign.

--flatline

[Akashic Soldier]

Once you get into the campaign with a team that works well together, it matters little if they were the original characters or replacement characters. The party would usually stabilize by the 2nd or 3rd session of a campaign.

--flatline

:\

If you say so...

[Killer Cyborg]

Ah. All GMs eyeball new characters, but you're actually talking about recalculating bonuses, skills, and such. I don't think I've ever seen a GM be that thorough with a character before.

--flatline

I used to do it routinely, before I realized that everybody was likely to die regardless.
Then, as I got more experienced as a GM and player, I still did it from time to time, if I had reason to be suspicious of a player.

The average life expectancy of a character in our Rifts campaigns was short enough that sometimes it wasn't even worth the player's time to calculate skill values unless the character actually survived long enough to level up...

Edit: now that I think about it, the GM would often approve the character concept and bring the character into play before anything was even written down on the character sheet, although if you didn't at least have your combat stats figured out by combat time, he'd contrive a reason to keep you out of it ("oops! the vehicle door is jammed! Won't unjam until you're done with your character...").

--flatline

Yeah, I've been in that boat many times, from both sides.

[Nightmask]

*shrug*
I've already established my own Madhaven well before the book came out.
That being said, the 'canon' book is good. I just don't need it is all.

As to the invulnerability issue? Its never come up.
Seriously... no one has been STUPID enough to even think of asking to play an invulnerable PC in my campaign. EVER.
Because;
1) I use the Un-revised *looks for high priced lawyers and Kevin Siembiada doing a Rumplestiltskin temper tamtrum* Conversion book 1 write up for super powahs..and yeah, it's not all that. Just a whack load of MDC, regeneration and half damage from conventional attacks. It does NOT make one immune to damage.
2) I would audit the PC so hard it would scream for the IRS to come put it out of its misery.

So yeah.

The write-up for converting Invulnerability is a bit off but it does actually make you immune to damage. Or I should say you're still immune to damage as you were before, only now instead of having HP/SDC for the rare attacks that get through you have MDC. It's a pretty wimp power if it were just as you describe it, you could do better with a few minor powers that would become MDC granting powers and reduce damage taken.

[Qev]

And that sounds like a game I would have rather drank poison than participated in. One of my biggest hang ups is player on player conflict. I like my players to band together against whatever hell I unleash against them. Not an attack on you buddy, just the situation is one that (from my point of view) seemed to suck in a big way!

Oddly enough, most of my favourite HU/Rifts campaigns consisted of roughly half big-bad NPC conflict and half inter-PC conflict. Mostly because the mutant animals in the group had divergent goals from the non-critter characters. It was always a good laugh, especially using magic to colour the Cyclone rider's power armor pink.

[Balabanto]

My players have this problem where some of them don't always realize the consequences of their actions. And then other PC's get mad when they realize that those actions, usually taken independantly, have thrown the entire group under the bus.

[flatline]

My players have this problem where some of them don't always realize the consequences of their actions. And then other PC's get mad when they realize that those actions, usually taken independantly, have thrown the entire group under the bus.

And, thus, life lessons are learned.

--flatline

[Balabanto]

My players have this problem where some of them don't always realize the consequences of their actions. And then other PC's get mad when they realize that those actions, usually taken independantly, have thrown the entire group under the bus.

And, thus, life lessons are learned.

--flatline

Well, that depends on what you mean by "Learned," doesn't it?

[flatline]

My players have this problem where some of them don't always realize the consequences of their actions. And then other PC's get mad when they realize that those actions, usually taken independantly, have thrown the entire group under the bus.

And, thus, life lessons are learned.

--flatline

Well, that depends on what you mean by "Learned," doesn't it?

Indeed. There is real life value in learning that you can suffer the consequences of someone else's actions.

Put it in the "who said life was fair?" file.

--flatline