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How much would you allow a Fleshsculptor to change a being's P.B. attribute? Theoretically, a Fleshsculptor could would have no limits, up or down, but how much of a change would you allow?

Easy, Sculpting skill check, -3% per point altered.

Up to +50% or -75%.

Ectoplasmic Bidet wrote:Up to +50% or -75%.

So some people are too ugly to be helped?

[edit]Using these guidelines, a kid born with deformed face (say P.B. 6) could only ever be made below average, P.B. 9?

Also, a super-model (P.B. 24) could be dropped to a P.B. 6, but not to a 3? You can only make someone so ugly?

Cinos wrote:Easy, Sculpting skill check, -3% per point altered.

Seeing as beauty is so subjective, why would it be so difficult to change the appearance? Why base the roll on points altered?

barna10 wrote:

Ectoplasmic Bidet wrote:Up to +50% or -75%.

So some people are too ugly to be helped?

I guess that's one way to look at it. I just think there's a lot that goes into what we consider beautiful; facial symmetry, skin tone, body shape, etc. It's not so simple as just reshaping a face, since you've got underlying musculature and bone structure to take into account.

The more beautiful you are, the easier you are to improve and the less defects the fleshsculptor must take into account.

Inversely, lack of beauty would be much easier to create, since asymmetry, scars and blemishes, and other features would take much less care and attention to create.

Ectoplasmic Bidet wrote:

barna10 wrote:

Ectoplasmic Bidet wrote:Up to +50% or -75%.

So some people are too ugly to be helped?

I guess that's one way to look at it. I just think there's a lot that goes into what we consider beautiful; facial symmetry, skin tone, body shape, etc. It's not so simple as just reshaping a face, since you've got underlying musculature and bone structure to take into account.

The more beautiful you are, the easier you are to improve and the less defects the fleshsculptor must take into account.

Inversely, lack of beauty would be much easier to create, since asymmetry, scars and blemishes, and other features would take much less care and attention to create.

True, but the whole problem with your premise is that the Fleshsculptor can change EVERYTHING about the person! It really doesn't matter what the raw materials are. It may take a couple of "treatments", but even the worst bone structure/skin quality/whatever could be improved, or even changed out with better raw materials (ie, add a super-model's skin )!

Forget P.B., how much would you allow a Fleshsculptor change other attributes (yes, they could change ANY of a person's attributes and several different ways!)?

One way I am considering is implanting animal muscle tissue to improve strength.

barna10 wrote:Forget P.B., how much would you allow a Fleshsculptor change other attributes (yes, they could change ANY of a person's attributes and several different ways!)?

One way I am considering is implanting animal muscle tissue to improve strength.

I do this in my heroes fantasy game, where flesh sculptors are revered and make mockeries of humanity for the amusement of the upper class and provide the upper class with beauty and health.

In this world they are famous for their flesh-formed - people transformed by flesh sculpting into human tools. For this I use the eugenics power catagory from heroes to create the fleshed form. The basis is that they have been constructed very much as you described, taking the flesh of another being and implanting it to improve stats and powers.

barna10 wrote:Forget P.B., how much would you allow a Fleshsculptor change other attributes (yes, they could change ANY of a person's attributes and several different ways!)?

One way I am considering is implanting animal muscle tissue to improve strength.

I don't know if I'd set a straight up limit on how much they could increase strength, maybe by +100% before the necessary changes to the musculature and skeletal system begin creating pronounced deformities; hulking brutes or something along those lines. Depending on what kind of grafts you're talking about and how extreme you're willing to go, PE, SDC, and Spd could go up quite a bit as well, though to different extents.

I would shy away from imbuing supernatural level stats, however. I don't think a human would be compatible with the magical nature of grafts from the more esoteric beasties. Hmm, maybe at the permanent cost of a certain amount of PPE?

That would make children with their higher PPE a useful base form to work with...

barna10 wrote:

Cinos wrote:Easy, Sculpting skill check, -3% per point altered.

Seeing as beauty is so subjective, why would it be so difficult to change the appearance? Why base the roll on points altered?

First, because beauty in the game is only half subjective, there is a clear number showing who has more balanced features, and attractive forms by and large, even if preferences balance things out.

Second, it gives reason to have a meaningful Sculpting skill, so the higher level Fleshsculptor (or rather, the one with the better skill total) has the better chance of creating a better work of art then a less skilled one, adding that penalty forces them to have a fair skill if they want to make a beautiful piece of art. As someone who's done enough sculpting, a face is an easy thing to screw up, if the eyes are slightly offset, or a nose is just too long, or some proportion is just slightly off, it instantly looks like some mutant thing with a birth defect, and zeroing in on that 'perfect' is very hard, more so when if you're trying to shoot for the sky, you often end in uncanny valley.

As a game play stand point, it also forces players to be realistic in their hopes, they can't just roll and see how good it is, they have to predict and balance the risk / reward against the chance of failure, but that choice is also theirs to make, it's not just forcing them to deal with dice. They can play it safe and just take a small hit to buff up an allies looks, or they can take a huge risk trying to make a super model.

I do agree a cap would be a good idea, perhaps based on what spells they have access to, since you may need to alter different structures of their skeleton, as beauty isn't just the face of course, nor is it just flesh. Also note the 3% penalty is moderately arbitrary (just picked since -30% to skill seems fair for +10 PB, if not -4%, since there is not a meaningful cost for failure much of the time), the penalty would need some numbers ran (or based on situation).

One thing to keep in mind is variant spells for attribute boosting can be created based on Superhuman Strength/Speed. That could easily be made Beauty, if you want to create a new Fleshsculptor spell to make someone very beautiful.

Making someone uglier is already doable by changing their skin texture.

Honestly even a penalty to the sculpting role isn't too much of a limit.

The thing is, there likely isn't any kind of time limit. and no reason the process can't be repeated over and over. just go for +2 PB the first time, then +2 the second, and +2 the third. unless there's a deadline there's no reason you couldn't turn a PB of 3 into Scarlett Johansson. For that matter, there's no reason you couldn't turn them into an exact body double of Scarlett Johansson assuming you had suitable pictures to work with.

The body double replacement thing is a good gig. why should Nightlords get all the fun.

Since beauty's presumably harder to create than ugliness, perhaps the skill penalty should be based upon the number someone is trying to achieve? As opposed to 'per point altered'. I'd give a bonus to try and reduce someone to an ugly (low) PB and a severe penalty the higher they want to go.

Say perhaps a 3% sculpting skill penalty per point over 10? That'd be -60% to get 30PB. Could be changed to 4%. 5% would mean -100% to make 30 which means nobody could.

barna10 wrote:

Ectoplasmic Bidet wrote:

barna10 wrote:

Ectoplasmic Bidet wrote:Up to +50% or -75%.

So some people are too ugly to be helped?

I guess that's one way to look at it. I just think there's a lot that goes into what we consider beautiful; facial symmetry, skin tone, body shape, etc. It's not so simple as just reshaping a face, since you've got underlying musculature and bone structure to take into account.

The more beautiful you are, the easier you are to improve and the less defects the fleshsculptor must take into account.

Inversely, lack of beauty would be much easier to create, since asymmetry, scars and blemishes, and other features would take much less care and attention to create.

True, but the whole problem with your premise is that the Fleshsculptor can change EVERYTHING about the person! It really doesn't matter what the raw materials are. It may take a couple of "treatments", but even the worst bone structure/skin quality/whatever could be improved, or even changed out with better raw materials (ie, add a super-model's skin )!

And the bolded part is where your problem lies. A flesh sculptor cannot change the same area more than once so they are bound by the limits of time and skill. Once the spell is cast, the clock is ticking and there is only so much that one person can do. Consider that most facial reconstruction surgery, including just a nose job, can take over an hour. Their magic lets them by pass a lot of the time but it still takes a while to get it right.