Attributes

[Dreamstreamer]

I was thinking on Chris Perkin's idea for reducing the number of dice he has to roll as a DM. In his case, he rolls a single die and then add a modifier based on the number of dice he didn't roll to get a total. Here is a link to his chart: link.

How does this apply to attributes? Well, we all know that the standard for humans is 3D6. We also know that getting a 16-18 results in rolling another die and adding it to the total. Now, I don't remember if this is covered, but what happens to those races that roll a different number for their attributes? 2D6, 4D6, etc. Here is where I would use Chris' nifty chart (though only the header row matters for this). All characters roll the same 3D6 for their attributes and then apply a bonus or penalty based on the number of dice listed for the attribute.

Example:
A race that normally rolls 4D6 for an attribute rolls 3D6. If it is a 16-18, the player rolls another die and adds it to the total like normal. After any bonus roll(s), they then add in the +3 from the extra die.

A race that normally rolls 2D8 for an attribute rolls 3D6. If it is a 16-18, the player rolls another die and adds it to the total like normal. After any bonus roll(s), they then subtract 2 from the difference in average dice totals. Of course, for penalties there will need to be a lower cap.

A race that normally rolls 3D6+3 for an attribute rolls 3D6. If it is a 16-18, the player rolls another die and adds it to the total like normal. After any bonus roll(s), they then add in the +3.

This allows all characters to have exceptional attributes relative to their respective races.

Comments? Thoughts?

[Scott Gibbons]

Sounds ok if you don't like rolling dice, though getting the bonus only for statistically improbable results seems to take away what is supposed to be special about the race to begin with. I mean (and I'm not sure if you misworded your post or not) taking what you wrote above, a race with a 4D6 attribute (which statistically would have a slightly higher average for that attribute) is reduced to being exactly the same as the standard humans. The only thing this idea would do would be to give a bonus for when the player already rolled high. Doesn't make much sense to me.

Also, substituting a standard +3 for a six-sided die seems a little arbitrary and um... well, bland. And a bit unfair. After all, statistically you have even odds for rolling a 4, 5, or 6 as much as a 1, 2, or 3 when rolling 1D6 - heck, your twice as likely to roll a 3 through 6 as you are a 1 or 2, so why low ball the players chances of getting that good die roll?

Again, if you just want to roll fewer dice, I guess this could work. Me, I like chucking a fist full o' dice

[Dreamstreamer]

Ah, I see I might not have been as clear as I would have hoped. The bonus is still there for attributes greater than 3D6, it's just added after you determine whether you get to roll bonus dice.

4D6 has an average roll of 14. 3D6 has an average roll of 11 (10.5, rounded up). If you roll 4D6, you can get a maximum of score of 24. If you roll 3D6, you get a maximum score of 18 (+ another D6 + up to one more D6 for an absolute maximum of 30). Should a 3D6 attribute have a chance (however slight) to roll a higher maximum score than 4D6? That seems odd to me. Thus, the provided alternative. With the alternative, the absolute maximum raises to 33 (30 + 3).

That being said, I totally respect the desire to chuck a fistfull of dice.

[Blue_Lion]

Wait you want me to stop using all the dice i can and take some arbitary number. Seams like allot of work over what is realy a non issue. The only time you normaly roll lots of dice is when it is D6 the easest to aquire. Now sets of dice verry in wha t is in them some have 3d6 some 1d6, some are only 36D6 you can also pick up a set of 5d6 at lots of stores not just gaming. Most RPG players i know have at least 5D6 shadow run players have much much more.

[jaymz]

Wait you want me to stop using all the dice i can and take some arbitary number. Seams like allot of work over what is realy a non issue. The only time you normaly roll lots of dice is when it is D6 the easest to aquire. Now sets of dice verry in wha t is in them some have 3d6 some 1d6, some are only 36D6 you can also pick up a set of 5d6 at lots of stores not just gaming. Most RPG players i know have at least 5D6 shadow run players have much much more.

Old WEG Star Wars d6 players do too......

[Dreamstreamer]

I think you guys missed what I was trying to do. Sure, it could be used to roll less dice, but I looked at it as more about keeping attribute generation consistent. Granted, there is a little less swing to the numbers, but streamlining the different racial bonuses makes it so that all races have the same chance for exceptional abilities relative to their race. Savvy?

[jaymz]

I think you guys missed what I was trying to do. Sure, it could be used to roll less dice, but I looked at it as more about keeping attribute generation consistent. Granted, there is a little less swing to the numbers, but streamlining the different racial bonuses makes it so that all races have the same chance for exceptional abilities relative to their race. Savvy?

No I understood that part. However it has been stated races that do not have a straight 3d6 attribute aren't supposed to get "exceptional" abilities. Just can't think of where it stated that at the moment.

EDIT - Though I believe 2d6 also gets an exceptional range.

[Dreamstreamer]

So, only humans (and those races with even lower attributes) can be stratified with some who are exceptional? I guess I feel a little pride at that, being human and all...

[jaymz]

So, only humans (and those races with even lower attributes) can be stratified with some who are exceptional? I guess I feel a little pride at that, being human and all...

Yeah I believe that is the case, just as in d20 Humans got an extra feat as well as an extra skillpoint or something like that. Something about being such an adaptable race etc.

[Dreamstreamer]

Yeah I believe that is the case, just as in d20 Humans got an extra feat as well as an extra skillpoint or something like that. Something about being such an adaptable race etc.

Good point, I can see how that would make sense. Though, there is no Human R.C.C (as far as I can tell), and humans were given that boost to try to make them appealing. After all, why would you pick human (with no attribute modifiers) over a different race (with attribute modifiers that are ideal for the class you want to take) without some kind of incentive? Do you think that the chance for higher than average attributes is an effective incentive for playing a human in Rifts or Palladium Fantasy?

Personally, I would like to see races completely divorced from classes, but that is a different topic.

Edit: Another thought: This isn't limited to humans, as some other races still have 3D6 for some attributes, which would get the same chance at getting an additional boost from a high roll. Hmm. I think I need to give the idea some more thought.

[jaymz]

Yeah I believe that is the case, just as in d20 Humans got an extra feat as well as an extra skillpoint or something like that. Something about being such an adaptable race etc.

Good point, I can see how that would make sense. Though, there is no Human R.C.C (as far as I can tell), and humans were given that boost to try to make them appealing. After all, why would you pick human (with no attribute modifiers) over a different race (with attribute modifiers that are ideal for the class you want to take) without some kind of incentive? Do you think that the chance for higher than average attributes is an effective incentive for playing a human in Rifts or Palladium Fantasy?

Personally, I would like to see races completely divorced from classes, but that is a different topic.

Well while it may be how it is (what I said above)

I myself am in the camp of all attribute rolls should allow for an "exceptional" attribute.

How one goes about accounting for that however is where many people differ.

[Dreamstreamer]

I myself am in the camp of all attribute rolls should allow for an "exceptional" attribute.

How one goes about accounting for that however is where many people differ.

How have you done it? I know I've houseruled before that when you roll XDY dice, if you get a total greater than the maximum total minus the number of dice rolled, you get an additional die to add to that total. So, for 2D6, an 11 or 12 would get an additional die. For 4D6, a 21 or higher would get an additional die. And so on.

[jaymz]

I thought about doing that but then at some point your exceptional stats can start lower than a lower die roll can get...hgard to exlain with lots of numbers..

I do more simply.

Basically if you roll within the top 3 of a die roll (16-18 on 3d6, 22-24 on 4d6, 28-30 on 5d6 so on and so forth) you get the bonus die and if you get a 6 on that you get the additional bonus die.

The only exception is on 3d4/2d6 which I keep at 11-12 getting a bonus die and that is it no additional bonus die.

Though my way also makes getting an "exceptional" stat harder and harder the higher the number of dice rolled. I think this is mitigated by the fact you are likely to get higher stats to begin with but it still allows their to exceptional beings within that race.

[Glistam]

I thought about doing that but then at some point your exceptional stats can start lower than a lower die roll can get...hgard to exlain with lots of numbers..

I do more simply.

Basically if you roll within the top 3 of a die roll (16-18 on 3d6, 22-24 on 4d6, 28-30 on 5d6 so on and so forth) you get the bonus die and if you get a 6 on that you get the additional bonus die.

The only exception is on 3d4/2d6 which I keep at 11-12 getting a bonus die and that is it no additional bonus die.

Though my way also makes getting an "exceptional" stat harder and harder the higher the number of dice rolled. I think this is mitigated by the fact you are likely to get higher stats to begin with but it still allows their to exceptional beings within that race.

I think that makes a lot of sense and is a great way to handle it.

[jaymz]

I thought about doing that but then at some point your exceptional stats can start lower than a lower die roll can get...hgard to exlain with lots of numbers..

I do more simply.

Basically if you roll within the top 3 of a die roll (16-18 on 3d6, 22-24 on 4d6, 28-30 on 5d6 so on and so forth) you get the bonus die and if you get a 6 on that you get the additional bonus die.

The only exception is on 3d4/2d6 which I keep at 11-12 getting a bonus die and that is it no additional bonus die.

Though my way also makes getting an "exceptional" stat harder and harder the higher the number of dice rolled. I think this is mitigated by the fact you are likely to get higher stats to begin with but it still allows their to exceptional beings within that race.

I think that makes a lot of sense and is a great way to handle it.

Thanks though I missed one things. I allow the exceptional to get bonus die/dice before adding in any +X bonus to the stat

IE 3d6+2, if you roll a 16-18 on the 3d6 you get to roll the bonus die/dice and THEN add the +2.

[Dreamstreamer]

Thanks though I missed one things. I allow the exceptional to get bonus die/dice before adding in any +X bonus to the stat

IE 3d6+2, if you roll a 16-18 on the 3d6 you get to roll the bonus die/dice and THEN add the +2.

Naturally!

[jaymz]

[quote="jaymz']Thanks though I missed one things. I allow the exceptional to get bonus die/dice before adding in any +X bonus to the stat

IE 3d6+2, if you roll a 16-18 on the 3d6 you get to roll the bonus die/dice and THEN add the +2.[/quote]

Naturally![/quote]

Well officially this isn't allowed.

[Dreamstreamer]

Well officially this isn't allowed.

Psshah! Nothing in this thread is official!

Also, you'll see that I fixed the quote in my post.

[jaymz]

I know this thread isn't was just pointing out what was

[jaymz]

Personally, I would like to see races completely divorced from classes, but that is a different topic.

YES and YES!!

Off Topic But YES!!

Well in a sense they can be. The fact there are non human Cyber-knights proves that They just don't make an official stance on it.

[Dreamstreamer]

Well in a sense they can be. The fact there are non human Cyber-knights proves that They just don't make an official stance on it.

Ahh, but how does one go about making a non-human cyber-knight? What attributes, skills, powers, etc. does one take from an R.C.C. to use with the O.C.C.? Can the player mix-and-match? Inquiring minds want to know!

I know, I know. Whatever makes for the most fun, right?

[jaymz]

Well in a sense they can be. The fact there are non human Cyber-knights proves that They just don't make an official stance on it.

Ahh, but how does one go about making a non-human cyber-knight? What attributes, skills, powers, etc. does one take from an R.C.C. to use with the O.C.C.? Can the player mix-and-match? Inquiring minds want to know!

I know, I know. Whatever makes for the most fun, right?

All good questions and why i said they don't take an official stance on it. Now if you want to know how I do it then that is a different thing entirely.

[Dreamstreamer]

All good questions and why i said they don't take an official stance on it. Now if you want to know how I do it then that is a different thing entirely.

Do share. We're all friends here, right?

[jaymz]

Basically unless the class involves magic or psionics and the race inherently has has magic or psionics I just replace the RCC skills with the OCC.

I look at the RCC as hte "typical" being of that race.

If the race has inherent psionics or magic and the class is a non magic or psychic class then I just allow them to be a more advanced being in that class since they also have inherent abilites in addition to the class they are.

If the class has inherent psionics or magic and the class they choose is a magic or psionic class I replace their psionics or magic abilities with those of the class.


For example. If a RCC is an inherently magic or psionic using race and they want to be a cyberknight I replace their magic abilities by making them automatically a major or master psychic cyberknight since they are inherently attuned to such things to begin with. Same thing with being say a Ley Line Walker. Replace the magic or psionic racial abilities with the class abilities.


make sense?

[Dreamstreamer]

:lol:

Basically unless the class involves magic or psionics and the race inherently has has magic or psionics I just replace the RCC skills with the OCC.

I look at the RCC as hte "typical" being of that race.

If the race has inherent psionics or magic and the class is a non magic or psychic class then I just allow them to be a more advanced being in that class since they also have inherent abilites in addition to the class they are.

If the class has inherent psionics or magic and the class they choose is a magic or psionic class I replace their psionics or magic abilities with those of the class.


For example. If a RCC is an inherently magic or psionic using race and they want to be a cyberknight I replace their magic abilities by making them automatically a major or master psychic cyberknight since they are inherently attuned to such things to begin with. Same thing with being say a Ley Line Walker. Replace the magic or psionic racial abilities with the class abilities.


make sense?

Looks pretty good. I'll see if I can come up with some additional (specific) questions, but I'll lead with this one: How do you handle experience charts? R.C.C., O.C.C., or something else entirely?

[jaymz]

:lol:

Basically unless the class involves magic or psionics and the race inherently has has magic or psionics I just replace the RCC skills with the OCC.

I look at the RCC as hte "typical" being of that race.

If the race has inherent psionics or magic and the class is a non magic or psychic class then I just allow them to be a more advanced being in that class since they also have inherent abilites in addition to the class they are.

If the class has inherent psionics or magic and the class they choose is a magic or psionic class I replace their psionics or magic abilities with those of the class.


For example. If a RCC is an inherently magic or psionic using race and they want to be a cyberknight I replace their magic abilities by making them automatically a major or master psychic cyberknight since they are inherently attuned to such things to begin with. Same thing with being say a Ley Line Walker. Replace the magic or psionic racial abilities with the class abilities.


make sense?

Looks pretty good. I'll see if I can come up with some additional (specific) questions, but I'll lead with this one: How do you handle experience charts? R.C.C., O.C.C., or something else entirely?

Where an RCC gets it sown XP chart I add a 10% premium since you are more than your RCC.

[Damian Magecraft]

:lol:

Basically unless the class involves magic or psionics and the race inherently has has magic or psionics I just replace the RCC skills with the OCC.

I look at the RCC as hte "typical" being of that race.

If the race has inherent psionics or magic and the class is a non magic or psychic class then I just allow them to be a more advanced being in that class since they also have inherent abilites in addition to the class they are.

If the class has inherent psionics or magic and the class they choose is a magic or psionic class I replace their psionics or magic abilities with those of the class.


For example. If a RCC is an inherently magic or psionic using race and they want to be a cyberknight I replace their magic abilities by making them automatically a major or master psychic cyberknight since they are inherently attuned to such things to begin with. Same thing with being say a Ley Line Walker. Replace the magic or psionic racial abilities with the class abilities.


make sense?

Looks pretty good. I'll see if I can come up with some additional (specific) questions, but I'll lead with this one: How do you handle experience charts? R.C.C., O.C.C., or something else entirely?

Where an RCC gets it sown XP chart I add a 10% premium since you are more than your RCC.

pretty much how i handle it as well

[Dreamstreamer]

I was trying to think of R.C.C.s that might have both magic and psionics. The only one that immediately comes to mind is the Dragon Hatchling, which (understandably) can't choose a separate O.C.C.

At least, I don't think they can. Going by the in-game fiction for them, I suppose they might be able to have picked up a distinct O.C.C. from some kind of mental transference from a parent while still in the egg, but then you have to establish how the parent picked up the O.C.C.

Also, does the premium change if the O.C.C. experience table has higher requirements than the R.C.C.?

[Damian Magecraft]

I was trying to think of R.C.C.s that might have both magic and psionics. The only one that immediately comes to mind is the Dragon Hatchling, which (understandably) can't choose a separate O.C.C.

At least, I don't think they can. Going by the in-game fiction for them, I suppose they might be able to have picked up a distinct O.C.C. from some kind of mental transference from a parent while still in the egg, but then you have to establish how the parent picked up the O.C.C.

Also, does the premium change if the O.C.C. experience table has higher requirements than the R.C.C.?

In the case of rcc vs occ. Exp always default to the higher of the two.

[jaymz]

I was trying to think of R.C.C.s that might have both magic and psionics. The only one that immediately comes to mind is the Dragon Hatchling, which (understandably) can't choose a separate O.C.C.

At least, I don't think they can. Going by the in-game fiction for them, I suppose they might be able to have picked up a distinct O.C.C. from some kind of mental transference from a parent while still in the egg, but then you have to establish how the parent picked up the O.C.C.

Also, does the premium change if the O.C.C. experience table has higher requirements than the R.C.C.?

In the case of rcc vs occ. Exp always default to the higher of the two.

[Dreamstreamer]

Makes sense. On that note, what is the craziest combination you've seen in a game, and what is the craziest combination you've allowed in your games?

[Killer Cyborg]

This isn't limited to humans, as some other races still have 3D6 for some attributes, which would get the same chance at getting an additional boost from a high roll. Hmm. I think I need to give the idea some more thought.

Exactly.
Races that have 4d6 or 5d6 attributes gain the advantage of a higher average, but by raising that average, they lose the potential to be above average (in a sense).

Remember, the attribute chart mostly caps out at 30, with some added in rules acknowledging the fact that sometimes somebody will go over 30, and how to deal with that.
But 30 is the assumed cap for attributes.
Even GODS rarely go over 30 with attributes, and are often in the mid-20s.

By giving races that roll 4d6 or 5d6 the option to get an additional die, you're making them more powerful than they're supposed to be relative to the setting.

[Dreamstreamer]

By giving races that roll 4d6 or 5d6 the option to get an additional die, you're making them more powerful than they're supposed to be relative to the setting.

That's an interesting observation. As a counterpoint, if 30 is supposed to be some kind of soft cap on the setting, why do some races get 6D6 for some attributes? While a little less likely to occur, it can break that soft cap. Also, P.P. seems to have received a raised cap of 45, which is nigh impossible for any race to roll (6D6 maxes out at 36) before O.C.C. or physical skill bumps.

Or were you thinking about how it was before power creep raised the setting soft cap?

[Killer Cyborg]

By giving races that roll 4d6 or 5d6 the option to get an additional die, you're making them more powerful than they're supposed to be relative to the setting.

That's an interesting observation. As a counterpoint, if 30 is supposed to be some kind of soft cap on the setting, why do some races get 6D6 for some attributes? While a little less likely to occur, it can break that soft cap. Also, P.P. seems to have received a raised cap of 45, which is nigh impossible for any race to roll (6D6 maxes out at 36) before O.C.C. or physical skill bumps.

Or were you thinking about how it was before power creep raised the setting soft cap?

Mostly, I was just ignoring the power creep, and assuming that you wouldn't want the ensuing problems of it.
Yes, 6d6 races would have a chance of breaking the soft cap, but that's what makes it soft.
A normal human with the right rolls and/or skills and/or buffs could also break the cap.

[Dreamstreamer]

Exactly.
Races that have 4d6 or 5d6 attributes gain the advantage of a higher average, but by raising that average, they lose the potential to be above average (in a sense).

The average should stay pretty close to what is expected based on the number of dice that would have been rolled. Only the top five percent would get a boost.

Even GODS rarely go over 30 with attributes, and are often in the mid-20s.

What does that say about the deities of Palladium Books? With the exception of strength, endurance, and speed (which doesn't seem to have the same setting-based cap), they are not beyond the limits of humans. Actually, that does kind of meet expectations. Humans have out thought the divine of several pantheons in mythology.

I need to put together a chart comparing the odds of rolling a particular number on 1-6D6 (including extra dice for exceptional rolls for 3D6) and see how it pans out.

[Colt47]

For attributes if I'm in a rush I just use a hybrid standard array.

Hybrid Standard Array is 1d4+7, 1d4+8, 1d4+9, 1d4+10, 1d4+11, 1d4+12, 1d4+13, 1d4+14, 1d4+15. If the resulting number is 16 or higher roll 1d6. Assign rolled results as desired.

[Dreamstreamer]

For attributes if I'm in a rush I just use a hybrid standard array.

Hybrid Standard Array is 1d4+7, 1d4+8, 1d4+9, 1d4+10, 1d4+11, 1d4+12, 1d4+13, 1d4+14, 1d4+15. If the resulting number is 16 or higher roll 1d6. Assign rolled results as desired.

Nice! So, guaranteed one exceptional attribute, with a pretty good chance of getting a few more. It also bottoms out at 8, which isn't terrific, but isn't too bad either. I like it.

Edit: So, how do you handle non-humans?

[Colt47]

For attributes if I'm in a rush I just use a hybrid standard array.

Hybrid Standard Array is 1d4+7, 1d4+8, 1d4+9, 1d4+10, 1d4+11, 1d4+12, 1d4+13, 1d4+14, 1d4+15. If the resulting number is 16 or higher roll 1d6. Assign rolled results as desired.

Nice! So, guaranteed one exceptional attribute, with a pretty good chance of getting a few more. It also bottoms out at 8, which isn't terrific, but isn't too bad either. I like it.

Edit: So, how do you handle non-humans?

I don't. The standard array assumes that the person rolling is using a standard array, as in a group of 3d6 rolls.

[Dreamstreamer]

I don't. The standard array assumes that the person rolling is using a standard array, as in a group of 3d6 rolls.

Fair enough. Besides, it's easy enough to just apply an additional +3 for attributes that are 4D6, +7 for attributes that are 5D6, +10 for attributes that are 6D6, and -3 for attributes that are 2D6. I think I'd step every value back by one, though, so the top attribute has a potential of 18 instead of 19 (before bonus dice).

Do you let your players use the Hybrid Standard Array, or do they prefer to test their luck with the dice?

[Colt47]

I don't. The standard array assumes that the person rolling is using a standard array, as in a group of 3d6 rolls.

Fair enough. Besides, it's easy enough to just apply an additional +3 for attributes that are 4D6, +7 for attributes that are 5D6, +10 for attributes that are 6D6, and -3 for attributes that are 2D6. I think I'd step every value back by one, though, so the top attribute has a potential of 18 instead of 19 (before bonus dice).

Do you let your players use the Hybrid Standard Array, or do they prefer to test their luck with the dice?

My local game group accepts it as an option. It's generally safer than rolling 3d6 and gives pretty decent starting scores. The only time it isn't allowed is when creating a cyborg, since the player only has to roll up 4 stats.

Yeah, the reason the highest can top at 19 is because the player only gets one bonus roll for a score above 16. Also, the HSA is pretty easy to adjust for different GM tastes, so if the scores are too high for them they can just pop the numbers down or up as they see fit.