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Posted: **Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:14 pm**

The thread about alternate XP tables for non-good characters got me thinking a bit, though other threads have spurred similar thoughts in the past.

One of the tricky things about an alignment system seems to be that people have different views on what exactly Good and Evil entail, what these terms even mean.
I've thought a lot about what Evil is, over the course of my lifetime, and I have my own views and theories on the subject, but thought that it might be interesting (and even productive) to get the view of other people on the subject.

To make it simpler to respond along the lines I'm looking for, I'll ask a series of questions, but just posting your own definition of Evil, or a mini-essay on the subject, is fine.

1. What IS Evil?
2. What causes Evil?
3. Is Evil inherently self-destructive and/or self-defeating?
4. Does an evil person/creature have to think of itself as evil in order to BE evil?
5. Is evil contained in nature, in action, or in intent? Or someplace else?
6. What kind of sociological/political effects would powers like Sense Evil (or other definite means of detecting alignment, or evilness in person/beings) have on societies? What would the implications be?

Edit:
And let's keep this peaceful, shall we?
Just because we might not all agree with each other does not mean that we need to butt heads or get nasty.
Just a pre-emptive reminder.

Posted: **Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:55 pm**

Wow, just looking at that list of questions churns in my mind any attempt to strictly define morality, Good, and Evil into a fine gray paste!

Posted: **Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:04 pm**

The following answers are my opinions on evil as it appears within the Rifts Role Playing game and do not necessarily reflect what I perceive evil to be in real life.

1. What IS Evil?

Perhaps the most difficult question. Evil takes many forms. I like to think that there are two forms of evil. Supernatural evil and worldly evil. Supernatural evil exists within the furthest most extremes of evil to the point where it could be considered monstrous or inhuman. This form of evil includes poisoning men's hearts, minds and souls and twisting them to acts of insanity or caging them within their own bedlam. Worldly evil on the other hand is self-serving and disregard for the sanctity of life and love or maintaining/practicing a view wherein these are mere tools or valueless products of the life experience. There is after all, a difference between someone who claims they love someone or something and someone who loves something ABOUT someone or something.

2. What causes Evil?

Again this varies. Evil is a leach on Good. Good can exist without evil as it nourishes itself but evil can never exist without good to nourish it. For evil consumes and willingly gives up nothing. Evil is caused, fundamentally, at its base, but a absence of compassion or empathy for other living beings. Not caring, apathy and hatred are the cause of evil. When your world consists of yourself and everyone else is a mere player in your life instead of an equal worthy of understanding and compassion. Evil is viral in its nature and it does spread and desensitize others too it, because ultimately if evil is anything... its easy.

3. Is Evil inherently self-destructive and/or self-defeating?
Yes. Evil represents a sickness or lack of character. It isolates itself because it only considers itself but cannot survive on its own. Not because that is a folly of nature but because no man is an island. In the cases of supernatural evil it can exist timelessly beyond the walls of sleep or within the cracks and crevices of the soul, lurking, lingering, waiting... but like a rotten seed waiting to blossom as soon as that sinister force expresses itself it has started a cycle that will ultimately lead to destruction (or at the very least a collapse that will trigger it all starts all over again).

4. Does an evil person/creature have to think of itself as evil in order to BE evil?
No. Just like in real life many do not. They feel they are right or justified for their actions and do not recognize the illness afflicting their mind and clouding their perspective or rational thinking. This is one of the sinister realities of personal bias-. More often than not those who embrace evil are blind or deluded about what actually is the bigger picture and only see what they want to see.

5. Is evil contained in nature, in action, or in intent? Or someplace else?
Evil exists within intent. Is expressed through action. And predates the nature of those who practice it as they they prey upon others.

6. What kind of sociological/political effects would powers like Sense Evil (or other definite means of detecting alignment, or evilness in person/beings) have on societies? What would the implications be?

As I believe evil is entirely rooted in intent I do not believe that such powers can be used to detect evil within a society or political group's goals and agendas and it must be used on a case by case basis. As evil is born in thought and action and practice of those performing said evil.

Posted: **Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:26 pm**

Akashic Soldier wrote:The following answers are my opinions on evil as it appears within the Rifts Role Playing game and do not necessarily reflect what I perceive evil to be in real life.

Hey, give your perceptions in real life as well.
And, if you feel like it, do a comparison/contrast with game-world evil.
We can't have art imitate life if we don't examine life itself.

Posted: **Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:39 pm**

This is going to get me bashed on here and lose a lot of respect but what the hell.

*drops his pants*

Who needs respect anyway.

Jokes aside, I honestly believe in my heart the cause of evil is Sin.

I define sin not as a strict dogmatic set of rules (though at its most simple base level that is what it is) but as a separation or deviation from the path set for us by God. The way I understand Christianity is that God sent Jesus to be a living example that we can follow (hence all the follow me talk) to show man that you do not NEED to choose to do evil and that the right way to live is to be selfless and to put the needs of others before your own self (even if this costs you your life). For as a Christian I have nothing to fear. My friends have been unsettled by this about me on many occasions because I have been stabbed and maced but I just have no fear because I have my faith in the Lord and final Justice.

I know that evil (like in my previous post) is a sickness and a deviation from ever-lasting life. God gave us free will so we can choose to live like a candle or burn everlasting and I believe that is the lesson we are put on this earth for. It is to rise above such trivial things such as fear and hate and apathy and to aspire to a life worth living and to deliver fair and honest compassion to those around us like Christ. Because we are the body of Christ. And the specifics, well they don't matter so much to me as the intent and the WAY to live.

Evil represents "that which cannot be ever-lasting" and as such symbolizes self-destruction or the end of life (such as homosexuality which cannot propagate itself or jealousy which cannibalizes genuine friendship). Now, before everyone jumps all over me that does not mean I condemn gay people. I have many gay friends and three aunties who are lesbians that I love very much. I simply believe that God can see more of the big picture than any one of us (especially since most Christians seem to be fighting over which way their piece of the puzzle should be placed on the board instead of seeking more pieces) but I do think sin (evil) is finality and entropy.

So to me in life, evil is anything that goes against your free ticket to immortality. Because as children of God we ALL deserve to experience that but it has to be our choice.

Posted: **Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:00 pm**

e·vil [ee-vuhl]
adjective
1.
morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.
2.
harmful; injurious: evil laws.
3.
characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate; disastrous: to be fallen on evil days.
4.
due to actual or imputed bad conduct or character: an evil reputation.
5.
marked by anger, irritability, irascibility, etc.: He is known for his evil disposition.

Posted: **Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:05 pm**

Defining evil in concrete terms is difficult. To paraphrase though, it's alot like porn. hard to DEFINE but I know it when I see it.

Posted: **Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:21 pm**

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Defining evil in concrete terms is difficult. To paraphrase though, it's alot like porn. hard to DEFINE but I know it when I see it.

Wrong, porn is good and fun

Posted: **Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:56 pm**

Killer Cyborg wrote:1. What IS Evil?

A subjective term used by like-minded people to negatively label things that they don't like.

2. What causes Evil?

A conflicting opinion between two or more people.

3. Is Evil inherently self-destructive and/or self-defeating?

No. Evil has no inherent properties at all since it doesn't exist without a subjective 3rd party to assign the label.

4. Does an evil person/creature have to think of itself as evil in order to BE evil?

Loaded question. There is, objectively, no such thing as Evil.

5. Is evil contained in nature, in action, or in intent? Or someplace else?

Nope. Reality (aka Nature) is completely indifferent. A male lion killing the cubs of another male for the sole purpose of making the mother go into heat sooner might be considered Evil by some, but the Universe doesn't care. In fact, the Universe encourages this sort of behavior by allowing the Male to more successfully pass on his genes than a male that doesn't exhibit this behavior (aka Natural Selection).

6. What kind of sociological/political effects would powers like Sense Evil (or other definite means of detecting alignment, or evilness in person/beings) have on societies? What would the implications be?

There is no way such a power could function objectively, so it would be no different than it is now where people choose who and what they want to believe.

--flatline

Posted: **Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:29 pm**

flatline wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:1. What IS Evil?

A subjective term used by like-minded people to negatively label things that they don't like.

2. What causes Evil?

A conflicting opinion between two or more people.

3. Is Evil inherently self-destructive and/or self-defeating?

No. Evil has no inherent properties at all since it doesn't exist without a subjective 3rd party to assign the label.

4. Does an evil person/creature have to think of itself as evil in order to BE evil?

Loaded question. There is, objectively, no such thing as Evil.

5. Is evil contained in nature, in action, or in intent? Or someplace else?

Nope. Reality (aka Nature) is completely indifferent. A male lion killing the cubs of another male for the sole purpose of making the mother go into heat sooner might be considered Evil by some, but the Universe doesn't care. In fact, the Universe encourages this sort of behavior by allowing the Male to more successfully pass on his genes than a male that doesn't exhibit this behavior (aka Natural Selection).

6. What kind of sociological/political effects would powers like Sense Evil (or other definite means of detecting alignment, or evilness in person/beings) have on societies? What would the implications be?

There is no way such a power could function objectively, so it would be no different than it is now where people choose who and what they want to believe.

--flatline

I now know your alignment. :lol:

Posted: **Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:13 pm**

Largely anything that doesn't agree with the modus operandi of our built in predispositions is considered evil. /shrug

Posted: **Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:19 pm**

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Defining evil in concrete terms is difficult. To paraphrase though, it's alot like porn. hard to DEFINE but I know it when I see it.

Wrong, porn is good and fun

I didn't say porn was bad or evil. I said it's hard to define and I know it when I see it. You can have "art" that is a naked woman or naked man, and it be art... but then you can have stuff that is naked women and men that's porn.

Some are worth millions and are in the most famous museums in the world for ALL to see. Some are hidden under beds and in closets.

Posted: **Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:21 pm**

There's a difference between something being socially unacceptable, and something being evil.

Posted: **Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:29 pm**

Pepsi Jedi wrote:There's a difference between something being socially unacceptable, and something being evil.

Just look at Akashic Soldier! :bandit:

Posted: **Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:01 am**

Read the darkness that comes before, for a fantasy world with objective morality built right into it. That'll make you think about what it's like to have some kind of world system that judges sin.

Posted: **Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:04 am**

Sin implys religion. It's not universal. Evil exists separate of religions.

Posted: **Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:16 am**

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Evil exists separate of religions.

Really? What if it's simply a notion from another religion? A religion the subject doesn't assume it's a religion, but 'how life is'?

Posted: **Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:14 am**

Akashic Soldier wrote:I now know your alignment.

None of my books have "Realist" listed in the Alignments. What printing do you have? Must be another RUE change that I missed...

--flatline

Posted: **Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:27 am**

I stand by my previous statement.

Posted: **Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:56 pm**

flatline wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:1. What IS Evil?

A subjective term used by like-minded people to negatively label things that they don't like.

2. What causes Evil?

A conflicting opinion between two or more people.

3. Is Evil inherently self-destructive and/or self-defeating?

No. Evil has no inherent properties at all since it doesn't exist without a subjective 3rd party to assign the label.

4. Does an evil person/creature have to think of itself as evil in order to BE evil?

Loaded question. There is, objectively, no such thing as Evil.

5. Is evil contained in nature, in action, or in intent? Or someplace else?

Nope. Reality (aka Nature) is completely indifferent. A male lion killing the cubs of another male for the sole purpose of making the mother go into heat sooner might be considered Evil by some, but the Universe doesn't care. In fact, the Universe encourages this sort of behavior by allowing the Male to more successfully pass on his genes than a male that doesn't exhibit this behavior (aka Natural Selection).

6. What kind of sociological/political effects would powers like Sense Evil (or other definite means of detecting alignment, or evilness in person/beings) have on societies? What would the implications be?

[color=#BF4000][/color]

There is no way such a power could function objectively, so it would be no different than it is now where people choose who and what they want to believe.

--flatline[/q
I agree with all of this

Posted: **Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:42 pm**

Evil IS Good.
How about we define Good

Good (Adjective)
1. Acting in the interest of good; ethical.
2. Useful for a particular purpose; functional.

Without Evil, Good cannot exist, just as without the Dark, Light cannot Exist.
In this context Evil meets both of the above definitions of Good.
Ergo Evil is Good.

Now before the points above get torn apart (as I am more than confident many here are capable of doing), I am not flaming, but rather making a point.

We have been asked what is evil, and to define evil, but evil is only one half of the equation. You cant define evil without also defining good.
On that subject both are subjective. Look at what is commonly considered Good or Evil now, and look at what it was 2500 years ago.
Lets take slavery, an emotional and heated debate. If you ask someone today if someone who owned a slave was evil, without even thinking about it most people will answer 'Yes'.
But in ancient Rome it was a common and wide spread practice. Does this mean that all slave owners in ancient Rome were evil? No, it doesn't, although whether they were good or evil may have helped determine how their slaves were treated. In fact most people probably didn't even think about it, especially if they were born into it (on either side).
Does this mean slavery today is not evil? Slavery today is quite evil, and I am against it in all of its forms, slavery based on race or gender is particularly vile (which is why I used the ancient Rome example as it was neither).
The point: The good/evil perception of slavery has changed over time, and with it its status as good or evil in the eyes of society at large.
Am I gonna catch flack for this post: Probably, but I was gonna have to start being my opinionated self at some point here on the boards.

Posted: **Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:26 pm**

Killer Cyborg wrote:The thread about alternate XP tables for non-good characters got me thinking a bit, though other threads have spurred similar thoughts in the past.

One of the tricky things about an alignment system seems to be that people have different views on what exactly Good and Evil entail, what these terms even mean.
I've thought a lot about what Evil is, over the course of my lifetime, and I have my own views and theories on the subject, but thought that it might be interesting (and even productive) to get the view of other people on the subject.

To make it simpler to respond along the lines I'm looking for, I'll ask a series of questions, but just posting your own definition of Evil, or a mini-essay on the subject, is fine.

1. What IS Evil?
EVIL is defined by the society the event or act expressing evil takes place in.
2. What causes Evil?
A perception by the masses of what is good, determines what is evil
3. Is Evil inherently self-destructive and/or self-defeating?
Not at all. In fact evil can if one is motivated by it can be very useful to society. I fell most people who are materially successful are probably of an evil allignement because they will do whatever it takes to succeed.
4. Does an evil person/creature have to think of itself as evil in order to BE evil?
Of course not, most evil doesn't think what they are doing is wrong.
5. Is evil contained in nature, in action, or in intent? Or someplace else?
No Evil is all about perception and circumstance.
6. What kind of sociological/political effects would powers like Sense Evil (or other definite means of detecting alignment, or evilness in person/beings) have on societies? What would the implications be?
It would polarize society, as it has in rifts. It would define people like no force in history and it would also be in error most of the time because it is perspective based. Imagine PETA casting sense evil on a man who works in a slaughter house. He is just providing for his family but the perception of the caster would clearly assume the man is of evil alignment.

Edit:
And let's keep this peaceful, shall we?
Just because we might not all agree with each other does not mean that we need to butt heads or get nasty.
Just a pre-emptive reminder.

Posted: **Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:34 pm**

flatline wrote:
Akashic Soldier wrote:I now know your alignment.

None of my books have "Realist" listed in the Alignments. What printing do you have? Must be another RUE change that I missed...

--flatline

No you're right, realist isnt an alignment. :lol:

Posted: **Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:49 pm**

Greyaxe wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:6. What kind of sociological/political effects would powers like Sense Evil (or other definite means of detecting alignment, or evilness in person/beings) have on societies? What would the implications be?
Greyaxe wrote:It would polarize society, as it has in rifts. It would define people like no force in history and it would also be in error most of the time because it is perspective based. Imagine PETA casting sense evil on a man who works in a slaughter house. He is just providing for his family but the perception of the caster would clearly assume the man is of evil alignment.

*Added the additional quote section to make it clearer who said what, if I made an error, please correct me*

Greyaxe, you bring up an interesting point, but it actually raises another question: Powers like Sense Evil, or, as KC said "other definite means of detecting alignment, or evilness in person/beings', do they read such based on who is using the power/ability, who the power/ability is being used on, or some universal constant we are as yet unaware of that is merely being accessed by the ability/power?
I have not read a definition anywhere one way or the other in any power description.
Further, would it depend on the source of the ability? Could a Psionic Sense Evil give off a different read than a Magic Sense Evil, as the Psionic Power, in theory, is being used on the mind of the person being read, and may be subjective based on the conviction of their beliefs, where as the Magic Spell is more coloured by the beliefs of the caster? Am I WAY over thinking this?

Posted: **Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:54 pm**

Akashic Soldier wrote:
flatline wrote:
Akashic Soldier wrote:I now know your alignment.

None of my books have "Realist" listed in the Alignments. What printing do you have? Must be another RUE change that I missed...

--flatline

No you're right, realist isnt an alignment.

What about the Taoist alignment from Mystic China? I could see Realist as another term for it....

Posted: **Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:59 pm**

13eowulf wrote:Could a Psionic Sense Evil give off a different read than a Magic Sense Evil, as the Psionic Power, in theory, is being used on the mind of the person being read, and may be subjective based on the conviction of their beliefs, where as the Magic Spell is more coloured by the beliefs of the caster? Am I WAY over thinking this?

It detects their alignment its that simple. If they are an evil person and live by an evil code of ethics or without any ethics at all, they're evil. If they're not evil, they don't detect. Its pretty easy to figure out we have guidelines for what is good, selfish or evil. If the G.M. feels the character falls within said categories they detect. Easy.

Evil obfuscates by its nature and where as you can wade in and come back out with a clearer perspective on the nature of evil and generally the hearts of men (How you doing?

) after you have done so it is generally the last thing you would recommend anyone else do as it is unnecessary to understand just how black and white things really are. You don't need to roll in mud to realize it is dirty.

Posted: **Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:34 pm**

Akashic Soldier wrote:Evil obfuscates by its nature and where as you can wade in and come back out with a clearer perspective on the nature of evil and generally the hearts of men

So what if they judge you as evil, as well?

What if it's the nature of evil to think it can judge with perfect clarity what evil is (in everyone else but itself)?

I mean think about it - it does sound like the sort of thing evil would do, isn't it? Thinking it's above it all and perfect.

Posted: **Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:51 pm**

Noon wrote:
Akashic Soldier wrote:Evil obfuscates by its nature and where as you can wade in and come back out with a clearer perspective on the nature of evil and generally the hearts of men

So what if they judge you as evil, as well?

What if it's the nature of evil to think it can judge with perfect clarity what evil is (in everyone else but itself)?

I mean think about it - it does sound like the sort of thing evil would do, isn't it? Thinking it's above it all and perfect.

I by no means think I am above evil or perfect. By no means at all. But I recognize it.

Posted: **Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:49 pm**

Death or Exile!?!

Posted: **Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:42 am**

13eowulf wrote:
Greyaxe wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:6. What kind of sociological/political effects would powers like Sense Evil (or other definite means of detecting alignment, or evilness in person/beings) have on societies? What would the implications be?
Greyaxe wrote:It would polarize society, as it has in rifts. It would define people like no force in history and it would also be in error most of the time because it is perspective based. Imagine PETA casting sense evil on a man who works in a slaughter house. He is just providing for his family but the perception of the caster would clearly assume the man is of evil alignment.

*Added the additional quote section to make it clearer who said what, if I made an error, please correct me*

Greyaxe, you bring up an interesting point, but it actually raises another question: Powers like Sense Evil, or, as KC said "other definite means of detecting alignment, or evilness in person/beings', do they read such based on who is using the power/ability, who the power/ability is being used on, or some universal constant we are as yet unaware of that is merely being accessed by the ability/power?
I have not read a definition anywhere one way or the other in any power description.
Further, would it depend on the source of the ability? Could a Psionic Sense Evil give off a different read than a Magic Sense Evil, as the Psionic Power, in theory, is being used on the mind of the person being read, and may be subjective based on the conviction of their beliefs, where as the Magic Spell is more coloured by the beliefs of the caster? Am I WAY over thinking this?

As the game is written, Evil isn't something that is in the eye of the beholder.
The spells/powers actually detect EVIL.
If somebody working in a slaughterhouse isn't evil, then that PETA mage would have to either accept that the spell was showing him that the guy isn't evil, or to assume that the spell was malfunctioning or being blocked somehow.

Posted: **Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:54 am**

13eowulf wrote:We have been asked what is evil, and to define evil, but evil is only one half of the equation. You cant define evil without also defining good.
On that subject both are subjective. Look at what is commonly considered Good or Evil now, and look at what it was 2500 years ago.

The problem with that logic is that it boils down to "people disagree about x, therefore x is necessarily subjective."
But people 2500 years ago thought the planet was flat, and people today believe that it is more of a sphere.
The fact that there is disagreement does not mean that both sides are correct.
One might argue, "but we can SEE that the planet is round!"
But one might also argue, "But we can SEE that slavery is evil."

Or, for another comparison, there is the issue of God.
Like the issue of "Evil," it's difficult to impossible to prove the existence of God.
The logical divide with God, though, is between two or three camps:
1. Those who believe that they have evidence to support the existence of God, and therefore believe in God.
2. Those who do not believe that there is sufficient evidence to support the existence of God, and therefore who believe that God does not exist.
3. Those who do not believe that there is sufficient evidence to support the existence of God, but who also believe that there is insufficient evidence to disprove the existence of God, and therefore believe the question to be undetermined and/or undeterminable.

There is NOT a significant camp of people who believe that the existence of God is subjective.
Because that would not be a logical conclusion to come to based on the evidence.
Likewise, the existence of Good and/or Evil might be logically questioned, but the assumption that Good and/or Evil exist in some subjective state dependent on the beliefs of the individual... that does not seem to be a logical conclusion to come to.

Posted: **Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:30 am**

White chocolate is evil.

Posted: **Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:59 am**

This is why I don't use alignments when I run games; in it's most basic terms evil is subjective. Empreror Prosek is considered evil, but not to the general populace of the Coalition States. They [CS citizens] understand that in order for them to maintain their way of life certain things have to be done. Magic has shown to be an destructive force used by demons and monsters from the rifts. Prosek is trying to protect the citizens of the CS by destroying magic in all of its forms. However, if you are some lowly ley-line walker whose being hunted by a dog-pack that was sent by the CS, then you would probably considering them evil since they are trying to take your life.

I find it easier to do away with restrictive alignments and just let the players play how their characters normaly would. Of course if the characters do acts that most societies would consider evil, then they can expect to be treated as evil people. To answer your initial question of "What is Evil?", quite simply it's the act that goes against the moral code of that particular society.

Posted: **Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:34 pm**

Thank you, paxmiles.
Nice post. :ok:

Posted: **Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:49 pm**

Looonatic wrote:White chocolate is evil.

White Chocolate is a delicious treat full of goodness and hope, as well as tasty Cocoa Butter!

Posted: **Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:52 pm**

13eowulf wrote:
Looonatic wrote:White chocolate is evil.

White Chocolate is a delicious treat full of goodness and hope, as well as tasty Cocoa Butter!

Plus dark chocolate always makes me feel unsafe.

What?

It was a joke people.

Posted: **Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:34 pm**

Killer Cyborg wrote:Thank you, paxmiles.
Nice post.

Seconded, a most excellent post indeed.

Posted: **Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:35 pm**

Akashic Soldier wrote:
13eowulf wrote:
Looonatic wrote:White chocolate is evil.

White Chocolate is a delicious treat full of goodness and hope, as well as tasty Cocoa Butter!

Plus dark chocolate always makes me feel unsafe.

What?

It was a joke people.

And taken in the spirit of such, as was my reply meant to be... :lol:

Posted: **Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:48 am**

Looonatic wrote:White chocolate is evil.

Aye. It's not even chocolate, for a start!

The false one! The false one!

Posted: **Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:57 am**

Akashic Soldier wrote:
Noon wrote:
Akashic Soldier wrote:Evil obfuscates by its nature and where as you can wade in and come back out with a clearer perspective on the nature of evil and generally the hearts of men

So what if they judge you as evil, as well?

What if it's the nature of evil to think it can judge with perfect clarity what evil is (in everyone else but itself)?

I mean think about it - it does sound like the sort of thing evil would do, isn't it? Thinking it's above it all and perfect.

I by no means think I am above evil or perfect. By no means at all. But I recognize it.

Well, there's the thing - no claim to perfection, then a claim of recognition without any qualifier to say such recognition is imperfect.

Posted: **Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:40 am**

Noon wrote:Well, there's the thing - no claim to perfection, then a claim of recognition without any qualifier to say such recognition is imperfect.

Sorry, too strong willed to fall into doubt and let lines grey again. But good effort. :ok:

If you do not like my belief system or think it is invalid that is your right but its be assured it has already been tried and tested. There is no need for you to try to challange that merely because you would see spiritual conviction as evil. I do not just adhere to whatever happy belief pops into my head or makes me feel safe or comfortable. I recolonize evil because I know it. I was raised in and by evil and I have been evil and by no means will I ever choose that again nor turn a blind eye to it so it might infect others. I will not and I cannot. "Evil" has taken people I love from me. From friends to lovers. Be it from substance abuse or to in subjugation to blind unreasoning hatred. In my world, in my life... evil is something that is very real and ever present like a wolf at the door. So yeah, if I couldn't recognize it... well, I wouldnt be "wasting my time" posting on this board nor the man I am today.

Posted: **Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:21 am**

In reality, I would say "evil" doesn't exist. It isn't a "thing" or a force. It's what falls outside of man's moral code, which differs from person to person, culture to culture and from age to age. My personal definition would be something along the lines of "a selfish action one commits with complete disregard to others, or with pre-meditated malicious intent."

In terms of running a fantasy game though, we can all agree as gaming groups as to what constitutes an evil action and inject whatever supernatural force/handwavium we need to make it a "thing" that can be detected by mages/psychics etc within the game.

That being so, you could well imagine that any nominally "good" society would use supernatural checks to root out evil, as described in posts above. But, this wouldn't necessarily be a round up the evil ones and burn 'em all exercise. What about personal freedom? There are probably many people in society today who could, by RPG alignment standards, be termed evil, but are law abiding in the main. They may wish to commit selfish/evil acts but play along with the system.

Perhaps also evil characters could be detected and attempts made to reform them. Or perhaps evil characters could be put to good use. There may be in a community, for example, a very capable administrator/strategist/builder etc who registers as evil. If the powers that be were aware, they might still wish to use the person's valuable skills but would need to ensure that sufficient safeguards were in place to monitor any possible aberrant behaviour. Or could a "good" society be this permissive - is making use of evil people for the good of the community a selfish act?

These are certainly great themes to explore in game!

Posted: **Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:31 am**

Pepsi Jedi wrote:There's a difference between something being socially unacceptable, and something being evil.

I'd argue we find the major infractions evil and the minor infractions "socially unacceptable". :lol:

Posted: **Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:36 am**

For those that believe that Evil does exist in some way, here's a question:
Can a person in complete isolation commit acts of evil?
As in, if a person was removed completely from the world, so that he/she would live the rest of their life without having any of their actions affect anybody but themselves, would they be able to take an action that would count as evil?
If so, what?

Posted: **Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:33 pm**

I believe "removing them from the world" would mean they could not generally commit evil. But they could still very much BE evil by becoming twisted, malicious and jealous of or hateful towards the world. Look at the Old Ones for example. They slumber and yet they are one of the most evil forces in the Megaverse.

Posted: **Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:28 pm**

Akashic Soldier wrote:I believe "removing them from the world" would mean they could not generally commit evil. But they could still very much BE evil by becoming twisted, malicious and jealous of or hateful towards the world. Look at the Old Ones for example. They slumber and yet they are one of the most evil forces in the Megaverse.

Yeah, but even asleep, those guys can cause some trouble!
:shock:

I think I get what you're saying, though: a person/entity completely on its own could BE evil, even if they couldn't commit any evil acts.

For you, Akashic, I'd be interested in hearing your take on the same question, in regards specifically to sin:
Can a person in complete isolation (as described) commit sins?

Posted: **Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:48 pm**

anything involving this contraction "Ex-Spouse"

Posted: **Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:50 pm**

anapuna wrote:
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Defining evil in concrete terms is difficult. To paraphrase though, it's alot like porn. hard to DEFINE but I know it when I see it.

Wrong, porn is good and fun

one person's good and fun is another's idea of human debasement.

yeah, i know you were joking, and i do not slight you for it. but i am just adding to the "not that easy to classify" statement.

If looking at nude women is evil, then I'm evil so be it, I can live with it.

Posted: **Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:58 pm**

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:
anapuna wrote:
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Defining evil in concrete terms is difficult. To paraphrase though, it's alot like porn. hard to DEFINE but I know it when I see it.

Wrong, porn is good and fun

one person's good and fun is another's idea of human debasement.

yeah, i know you were joking, and i do not slight you for it. but i am just adding to the "not that easy to classify" statement.

If looking at nude women is evil, then I'm evil so be it, I can live with it.

If this is the criteria then I should join like a League of Evil or some such...

Posted: **Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:00 am**

13eowulf wrote:
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:
anapuna wrote:
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Defining evil in concrete terms is difficult. To paraphrase though, it's alot like porn. hard to DEFINE but I know it when I see it.

Wrong, porn is good and fun

one person's good and fun is another's idea of human debasement.

yeah, i know you were joking, and i do not slight you for it. but i am just adding to the "not that easy to classify" statement.

If looking at nude women is evil, then I'm evil so be it, I can live with it.

If this is the criteria then I should join like a League of Evil or some such...

If Porn is evil then I'm Cthulhu.

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