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The idea i think is, the only real benefit you get from using hand to hand weapons with SN str is the bonuses from the WP

Rolling Bear wrote:I was wondering how you guys handle the RUE supernatural strength rules? I don't think I like them very much. You use a vibro sword and it does max what your punch would do. I think it should at least be added to the damage.

You're wrong, here's why:
1. You don't add punch damage to weapon damage (except in stated exceptions).
If you have a normal, SDC-level character, he punches for 1d4 SDC. If he picks up a dagger, then he stabs for 1d6 SDC.
He does NOT stab for 1d6+1d4 SDC.
That's just not how it works.

2. Supernatural Strength is supernatural.
In the description, it specifically mentions that Supernatural Strength breaks the laws of physics.
And you can tell that this is true, because the damage related to supernatural PS is unrelated to how physically strong the character is.
It's not about muscle mass, it's about magic.
We know this, because...
a) there are many, many creatures with supernatural PS that simply aren't muscular. Vampires, for example, are typically scrawny little punks... even though they can chuck a Buick at you (or, at the least, rip off pieces of the Buick with their bare hands, then throw the pieces at you).
They don't have the muscle-mass to back up their ability to lift/carry or to inflict damage with their bare hands, but they do it anyway, breaking the laws of physics. Because they're magic.
b) The damage inflicted by Supernatural PS is completely out of whack with the lift/carry ability. There are cases where a person with normal PS can actually lift MORE than a character with Supernatural PS... but the supernatural guy still punches hundreds of times harder.
Which makes no sense. It breaks the laws of physics.
And it demonstrates that Supernatural PS damage is not related to how strong you actually are. If it WAS, then the guy who could lift/carry more would be the one that hit harder.
What it comes down to is that the argument of "but it makes sense that a guy hitting you with a sword would hit harder than the same guy hitting you with his bare hand" doesn't mean anything, because Supernatural PS doesn't make any sense to begin with.
It's like looking at Dali's painting with the Melting Clocks, and saying that it doesn't make sense because the clocks show different times... it's missing the fact that the rest of the picture doesn't make any sense either.

Off the top of my head, the only exceptions to the rule that supernatural PS damage isn't added to weapon damage are from a piece of Thor's enchanted gear and the kisentite weapons made by the Nuhr(sp?) dwarves. In both cases magic is involved, which further supports KC's argument about supernatural PS being mystic in origin and not necessarily making sense in its application.

You inflict additional full strength punch damage in addition to normal melee attacks the same way you add additional S.D.C. damage from non-supernatural strength. If you pull your punch you add that total instead likewise if you perform a power punch it inflicts that damage instead.

The damage formula is

[Weapon Damage] + [P.S. Bonus]

The damage gained from having supernatural strength or augmented strength is considered bonus damage from P.S. you know, because its extra damage... based off how strong you are.

I prefer the wording for the ruling in the GMG over that found in RUE. My understanding is that you take the damage from the weapon, or your supernatural punch damage, whichever is greater, and then add the PS damage bonus as MD. Basically, the only way for a creature with Supernatural PS to take advantage of its PS Damage bonus is to either throw a restrained SDC punch, or use a melee weapon.

ie, if using a vibro-blade that causes 1D6 MD while you yourself inflict 2D6 MD, you would inflict 2D6 plus the PS damage bonus as MD. If you traded up to a sword that inflicted 3D6 MD, then you would inflict the 3D6+ PS damage bonus in MD.

At least that's how I handle it.

In all games I've ever played, P.S. damage has always been added to weapons so long at the weapon itself is mdc or indestructible, because it never made sense that a punch would do more damage then a weapon. yes, you end up with people swinging swords for 1d6x10+45, but hey it's Rifts... what do you want?

Mercdog wrote:I prefer the wording for the ruling in the GMG over that found in RUE. My understanding is that you take the damage from the weapon, or your supernatural punch damage, whichever is greater, and then add the PS damage bonus as MD. Basically, the only way for a creature with Supernatural PS to take advantage of its PS Damage bonus is to either throw a restrained SDC punch, or use a melee weapon.

ie, if using a vibro-blade that causes 1D6 MD while you yourself inflict 2D6 MD, you would inflict 2D6 plus the PS damage bonus as MD. If you traded up to a sword that inflicted 3D6 MD, then you would inflict the 3D6+ PS damage bonus in MD.

At least that's how I handle it.

PS damage bonus is officially always SDC damage as a rule. Which is why it's generally discounted from MD attacks, because 1d6 MD + 15 SDC really isn't much different from 1d6 MD.
The god Thor has special magic gauntlets that allow him to add his PS damage bonus in MD to his MD melee attacks, but he's a god, and the gauntlets are right up there with his magic hammer as far as power and availability go.

That's the official rule, anyway.
If what you're doing works for you, go for it.
My only point is that it's a house-rule.

Rolling Bear wrote:I was wondering how you guys handle the RUE supernatural strength rules? I don't think I like them very much. You use a vibro sword and it does max what your punch would do. I think it should at least be added to the damage.

I add the strength damage to the weapon damage (again ala D&D) as to me the stronger a person is the more "oomph" they can put into the swing or punch. So a vibro blade that does 1D6 MD now does 1D6 MD + PS bonus.
EDIT: On a Supernatural Creature I count the PS damage bonus as also being SN. I know that "defies the rules" but it makes more sense to me.

It comes up alot on the boards because the rules are schizophrenic. Look at Xiticix weapons, they get to add their punch damage to there completely non-magical weapon. I seem to remember their being exceptions for gargoyle weapons as well.

I just let everything add. Yes that makes melee weapons high damage. Of course they're still not lobbing volleys of missles from miles away, but it makes keeping a melee weapon more sensible.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Mercdog wrote:I prefer the wording for the ruling in the GMG over that found in RUE. My understanding is that you take the damage from the weapon, or your supernatural punch damage, whichever is greater, and then add the PS damage bonus as MD. Basically, the only way for a creature with Supernatural PS to take advantage of its PS Damage bonus is to either throw a restrained SDC punch, or use a melee weapon.

ie, if using a vibro-blade that causes 1D6 MD while you yourself inflict 2D6 MD, you would inflict 2D6 plus the PS damage bonus as MD. If you traded up to a sword that inflicted 3D6 MD, then you would inflict the 3D6+ PS damage bonus in MD.

At least that's how I handle it.

PS damage bonus is officially always SDC damage as a rule. Which is why it's generally discounted from MD attacks, because 1d6 MD + 15 SDC really isn't much different from 1d6 MD.
The god Thor has special magic gauntlets that allow him to add his PS damage bonus in MD to his MD melee attacks, but he's a god, and the gauntlets are right up there with his magic hammer as far as power and availability go.

I thought it was his belt/girdle? But anyway, if it ever came up in my games, I'd allow a fully geared up Thor to include all the potential damage from Weapon+Supernatural Punch+Damage Bonus. He'll need that kind of monstrous damage potential come Ragnarok.
But again, that's my interpretation.

That's the official rule, anyway.
If what you're doing works for you, go for it.
My only point is that it's a house-rule.

I'd argue that it's what's written in the GMG, but the whole issue has been beaten to death several times, and I can live with my interpretation being a house rule. It surely ain't my only one.

I was confused by something in an e-mail I got recently regarding the rules.

Supernatural Damage and Hand to Hand Weapons. R:UE, pg. 286.

Short version inflict the M.D. of the weapon or the the P.S. whichever is greater. Thus a Vibro Sabre that would normally inflict 2D4 M.D.C. when in the hands of a supernatural creature with Supernatural P.S. 26 would inflict 2D6 M.D.C. instead or 6D6 on a power attack instead of the normal 4D4.

Mercdog wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Mercdog wrote:I prefer the wording for the ruling in the GMG over that found in RUE. My understanding is that you take the damage from the weapon, or your supernatural punch damage, whichever is greater, and then add the PS damage bonus as MD. Basically, the only way for a creature with Supernatural PS to take advantage of its PS Damage bonus is to either throw a restrained SDC punch, or use a melee weapon.

ie, if using a vibro-blade that causes 1D6 MD while you yourself inflict 2D6 MD, you would inflict 2D6 plus the PS damage bonus as MD. If you traded up to a sword that inflicted 3D6 MD, then you would inflict the 3D6+ PS damage bonus in MD.

At least that's how I handle it.

PS damage bonus is officially always SDC damage as a rule. Which is why it's generally discounted from MD attacks, because 1d6 MD + 15 SDC really isn't much different from 1d6 MD.
The god Thor has special magic gauntlets that allow him to add his PS damage bonus in MD to his MD melee attacks, but he's a god, and the gauntlets are right up there with his magic hammer as far as power and availability go.

I thought it was his belt/girdle?

Could be. I haven't read the entry in a while.

But anyway, if it ever came up in my games, I'd allow a fully geared up Thor to include all the potential damage from Weapon+Supernatural Punch+Damage Bonus. He'll need that kind of monstrous damage potential come Ragnarok.
But again, that's my interpretation.

Ultimately, I only really care about two things (in this context):
1. That people can tell the difference between their own rules, and the official rules.
2. That they don't butcher the setting too badly with their own rules.
And if you boost Thor to make up for the boost in other people, that won't butcher the setting too badly (in this regard, anyway).

That's the official rule, anyway.
If what you're doing works for you, go for it.
My only point is that it's a house-rule.

I'd argue that it's what's written in the GMG, but the whole issue has been beaten to death several times, and I can live with my interpretation being a house rule. It surely ain't my only one.

RUE has the same rules as the RGMG, only with some added clarification.
But yeah- there's NOTHING wrong with house rules. Everybody has them.

Incriptus wrote:It comes up alot on the boards because the rules are schizophrenic. Look at Xiticix weapons, they get to add their punch damage to there completely non-magical weapon. I seem to remember their being exceptions for gargoyle weapons as well.

Exactly.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Rolling Bear wrote:I was wondering how you guys handle the RUE supernatural strength rules? I don't think I like them very much. You use a vibro sword and it does max what your punch would do. I think it should at least be added to the damage.

You're wrong, here's why:
1. You don't add punch damage to weapon damage (except in stated exceptions).
If you have a normal, SDC-level character, he punches for 1d4 SDC. If he picks up a dagger, then he stabs for 1d6 SDC.
He does NOT stab for 1d6+1d4 SDC.
That's just not how it works.

No they get their Strength bonus if their strength is high enough which can put a 1d4 SDC punch to shame.

2. Supernatural Strength is supernatural.
In the description, it specifically mentions that Supernatural Strength breaks the laws of physics.
And you can tell that this is true, because the damage related to supernatural PS is unrelated to how physically strong the character is.
It's not about muscle mass, it's about magic.
We know this, because...
a) there are many, many creatures with supernatural PS that simply aren't muscular. Vampires, for example, are typically scrawny little punks... even though they can chuck a Buick at you (or, at the least, rip off pieces of the Buick with their bare hands, then throw the pieces at you).
They don't have the muscle-mass to back up their ability to lift/carry or to inflict damage with their bare hands, but they do it anyway, breaking the laws of physics. Because they're magic.
b) The damage inflicted by Supernatural PS is completely out of whack with the lift/carry ability. There are cases where a person with normal PS can actually lift MORE than a character with Supernatural PS... but the supernatural guy still punches hundreds of times harder.
Which makes no sense. It breaks the laws of physics.
And it demonstrates that Supernatural PS damage is not related to how strong you actually are. If it WAS, then the guy who could lift/carry more would be the one that hit harder.
What it comes down to is that the argument of "but it makes sense that a guy hitting you with a sword would hit harder than the same guy hitting you with his bare hand" doesn't mean anything, because Supernatural PS doesn't make any sense to begin with.
It's like looking at Dali's painting with the Melting Clocks, and saying that it doesn't make sense because the clocks show different times... it's missing the fact that the rest of the picture doesn't make any sense either.

a) Muscle mass is irrelevant. I can call it density if I wanted to.
b) Physics is irrelevant. It's "magic" as you say.

Someone with supernatural strength just plain hit harder that someone with normal strength. Weapons simply should increase the damage. They used to and I see no reason for the change.

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Rolling Bear wrote:I was wondering how you guys handle the RUE supernatural strength rules? I don't think I like them very much. You use a vibro sword and it does max what your punch would do. I think it should at least be added to the damage.

You're wrong, here's why:
1. You don't add punch damage to weapon damage (except in stated exceptions).
If you have a normal, SDC-level character, he punches for 1d4 SDC. If he picks up a dagger, then he stabs for 1d6 SDC.
He does NOT stab for 1d6+1d4 SDC.
That's just not how it works.

No they get their Strength bonus if their strength is high enough which can put a 1d4 SDC punch to shame.

Exactly.
And if they don't get that strength bonus, then they do straight weapon damage.
Not punch damage plus weapon damage in either case.

Muscle mass is irrelevant. I can call it density if I wanted to.

Call what "density?"
And how would that help anything?

b) Physics is irrelevant. It's "magic" as you say.

Right.
So when physics is irrelevant, appealing to physics is absurd.
Hence the pointlessness of the "if he hits x hard with a fist, he should hit even harder with a sword" argument: it relies on physics, which is irrelevant.

Someone with supernatural strength just plain hit harder that someone with normal strength.

Not necessarily, no.
They hit for more damage, but not necessarily harder.
For all we know, the damage is a supernatural effect, not physical force.

Weapons simply should increase the damage.

I'm listening.
Now, without applying or appealing to the laws of physics, which you agree are irrelevant, explain to me why weapons should increase the damage.

They used to and I see no reason for the change.

There was never a rule that punch damage and weapon damage stacked in general, only a precedent that was set with Gargoyle weapons, which indicated a rule.
But that rule was never written, and may have never existed.

And hey, while we're on the "no reason for the change" kick, how about we go back to the beginning of Rifts, before Supernatural PS inflicted mega-damage in the first place?

Looks like KC has this about wrapped up, but yeah, Supernatural Strength is pretty much just magic, it isn't physical strength or toughness, or mass that does the damage with that. Same as enchanted swords that become MD equivalent of SD in an MD universe, it isn't sharper or faster or more massive, it is just the magic bringing the damage to the table.

Side note 1: Natural attacks of supernatural or magical creatures stack with their own supernatural strength, and many magic weapons tend to include a line about that specific weapon stacking as well.

Side note 2: The rule about punch damage plus weapon damage in general is from SDC settings, where SN is constrained a bit more within the local physics. Though it will destroy the weapon if you do more than three times the base damage.

Still curious why KS chose to keep both Supernatural Strength and Robotic Strength. It seems a little simpler to just define both by having MD level strength and giving the Supernatural creatures a larger bonus to pull punch. Robots in Rifts tend to be supernatural in strength anyway.

I know this is slightly off topic from the original post, but still in line with the title of the thread. I created a chart to compare regular PS, exceptional regular PS, Robotic PS, Robotic PS over 40 (iirc), and Supernatural PS in terms of carrying and lifting weight. To figure out Augmented PS, just use the applicable multiplier (i.e. a Juicer's Augmented PS is 4x that of regular PS where as Crazies only have 2x). I use this chart to determine who is stronger (or equally matched) in terms of strength by comparing the columns. One of the more odd things that I have discovered is that those with a Robotic PS greater than 40 (iirc) are equally as strong as someone with a Supernatural PS of 40 (or more)

I have a question for those who apply the SNPS punch damage to md web damage.
And use the argument because it makes more sense that way..
Do you also use the weapon breaking rules?
Where if you exceed the weapons max damage by a certain factor (x3 iirc) there is a chance the weapon is broken and now useless?

Damian Magecraft wrote:I have a question for those who apply the SNPS punch damage to md web damage.
And use the argument because it makes more sense that way..
Do you also use the weapon breaking rules?
Where if you exceed the weapons max damage by a certain factor (x3 iirc) there is a chance the weapon is broken and now useless?

Nope.
The way I play the game ease of use triumphs over multiple obscure rules.

Dr. Doom III, I think that comment may have made you my hero of the day.

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:I have a question for those who apply the SNPS punch damage to md web damage.
And use the argument because it makes more sense that way..
Do you also use the weapon breaking rules?
Where if you exceed the weapons max damage by a certain factor (x3 iirc) there is a chance the weapon is broken and now useless?

Nope.
The way I play the game ease of use triumphs over multiple obscure rules.

Seems easier to NOT stack the damage than to stack it.

Colt47 wrote:Still curious why KS chose to keep both Supernatural Strength and Robotic Strength. It seems a little simpler to just define both by having MD level strength and giving the Supernatural creatures a larger bonus to pull punch. Robots in Rifts tend to be supernatural in strength anyway.

Because supernatural and robotic are two different kinds of strength. Robotic strength relies of physics and does stack with weapons, Supernatural is pretty much just magical damage. Then they have differing lift/carry for much the same reasons.

Armorlord wrote:

Colt47 wrote:Still curious why KS chose to keep both Supernatural Strength and Robotic Strength. It seems a little simpler to just define both by having MD level strength and giving the Supernatural creatures a larger bonus to pull punch. Robots in Rifts tend to be supernatural in strength anyway.

Because supernatural and robotic are two different kinds of strength. Robotic strength relies of physics and does stack with weapons, Supernatural is pretty much just magical damage. Then they have differing lift/carry for much the same reasons.

Yeah, but he's right about Robotic Strength tending to be "supernatural" anyway, as in, it ALSO breaks the laws of physics... it just doesn't have any in-game explanation.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Yeah, but he's right about Robotic Strength tending to be "supernatural" anyway, as in, it ALSO breaks the laws of physics... it just doesn't have any in-game explanation.

Sure it does: MD science, materials, physics, and power systems.

One is ignoring physics, the other is abusing it.

Armorlord wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Yeah, but he's right about Robotic Strength tending to be "supernatural" anyway, as in, it ALSO breaks the laws of physics... it just doesn't have any in-game explanation.

Sure it does: MD science, materials, physics, and power systems.

One is ignoring physics, the other is abusing it.

A robot with PS 16 can lift 320 lbs. His punch (whether clad in a soft "realistic skin overlay" or from the hard fists of a 10' tall combat bot) inflicts 1 MD.
A human with PS 30 can lift 1200 lbs. His punch inflicts 1d4+15 SDC, a maximum of <1/5 of the damage of the robot, even though he can lift nearly 4x as much weight.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:I have a question for those who apply the SNPS punch damage to md web damage.
And use the argument because it makes more sense that way..
Do you also use the weapon breaking rules?
Where if you exceed the weapons max damage by a certain factor (x3 iirc) there is a chance the weapon is broken and now useless?

Nope.
The way I play the game ease of use triumphs over multiple obscure rules.

Seems easier to NOT stack the damage than to stack it.

Easier but dumber.

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:I have a question for those who apply the SNPS punch damage to md web damage.
And use the argument because it makes more sense that way..
Do you also use the weapon breaking rules?
Where if you exceed the weapons max damage by a certain factor (x3 iirc) there is a chance the weapon is broken and now useless?

Nope.
The way I play the game ease of use triumphs over multiple obscure rules.

Seems easier to NOT stack the damage than to stack it.

Easier but dumber.

Make up your mind. Are you going for easy, or for smart?
If you're going for easy, not stacking is easier.
If you're going for smart, then Supernatural PS should be scrapped or retooled in the first place.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:I have a question for those who apply the SNPS punch damage to md web damage.
And use the argument because it makes more sense that way..
Do you also use the weapon breaking rules?
Where if you exceed the weapons max damage by a certain factor (x3 iirc) there is a chance the weapon is broken and now useless?

Nope.
The way I play the game ease of use triumphs over multiple obscure rules.

Seems easier to NOT stack the damage than to stack it.

Easier but dumber.

Make up your mind. Are you going for easy, or for smart?
If you're going for easy, not stacking is easier.
If you're going for smart, then Supernatural PS should be scrapped or retooled in the first place.

I'd rather do both. Adding a die roll isn't that hard. Especially since it's how it used to work and I'm used to it. It making sense is just a bonus.

Except that it doesn't make sense, it didn't work that way originally.
But I know... you're going to play how you're going to play.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Except that it doesn't make sense, it didn't work that way originally.
But I know... you're going to play how you're going to play.

Stronger things hitting harder makes loads of sense and it did work that way originally.

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Except that it doesn't make sense, it didn't work that way originally.
But I know... you're going to play how you're going to play.

Stronger things hitting harder makes loads of sense and it did work that way originally.

Stronger things hitting harder isn't how Supernatural Strength works; characters with normal PS might be stronger in some cases, but they don't hit anywhere near as hard.

And the way it worked originally was that Supernatural PS didn't even inflict any MD at all. THAT didn't happen until CB1.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Except that it doesn't make sense, it didn't work that way originally.
But I know... you're going to play how you're going to play.

Stronger things hitting harder makes loads of sense and it did work that way originally.

Stronger things hitting harder isn't how Supernatural Strength works; characters with normal PS might be stronger in some cases, but they don't hit anywhere near as hard.

And the way it worked originally was that Supernatural PS didn't even inflict any MD at all. THAT didn't happen until CB1.

Lifting and hitting strength in Palladium are two different things and CB1 is when we got the rule before that there was no rule covering it at all.

Rolling Bear wrote:I was wondering how you guys handle the RUE supernatural strength rules? I don't think I like them very much. You use a vibro sword and it does max what your punch would do. I think it should at least be added to the damage.

Most of the time I handle it like the rules say to.

But if I am playing Nada's games then I add the two together.

Dr. Doom III wrote:Lifting and hitting strength in Palladium are two different things

Well, let's look at that.
Before CB1, a character with supernatural PS of 30 could lift/carry a lot more than a character with normal PS of 30, but they'd have the same damage bonus (+15).
So I agree that Supernatural PS has always broken the laws of physics to some degree.
But at worst, you'd end up with situations where the stronger guy did the same damage as the weaker guy, not hundreds of times less.

and CB1 is when we got the rule before that there was no rule covering it at all.

Right, which means that it didn't inflict mega-damage.
Just like how right now, there's no rule stating that Supernatural Endurance allows you to inflict megadamage, therefore, Supernatural Endurance does not allow you to inflict mega-damage.
If there are no rules addressing a concept, introducing it into the game, then it's not in the game.

Armorlord wrote:[snip]Robotic strength relies of physics and does stack with weapons, Supernatural is pretty much just magical damage. Then they have differing lift/carry for much the same reasons.

In reference to the bolded section... where do I find this rule dictating the stacking of robotic and M.D. melee weaponry?

I just use the rules out of Nightspawn and apply it to all Supernatural strength

PG 35 Nightspawn
Supernatural damage and hand weapons: When wielding a hand weapon, such as swords, clubs and knives, the supernatural being rolls both for its basic hand to hand damage and the weapon's damage. Example: A Nightbane with a P.S. 24 is wielding a sword (ID8 damage). His base hand to hand damage is 3D6+9, so when using a sword he will roll 3D6+9 plus the ID8 sword damage and add the results together.

Optional Rule: Normal weapons are in danger of breaking when wielded by somebody with supernatural strength. A good rule of thumb is to assume a weapon is in danger of breaking whenever total damage inflicted exceeds more than three times the weapon's maximum base damage — in the case of the ID8 sword, more than 24 points of damage might break the sword. Every time that much damage is inflicted, there is a 01-30% chance that the weapon will break. Heavy, sturdy weapons, and very well-crafted blades (a master smith's katana, for example) can withstand more damage; do not roll unless damage exceeds five times the weapon's maximum damage. Magical weapons and artifacts are basically indestructible and are at no risk of breaking.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Dr. Doom III wrote:Lifting and hitting strength in Palladium are two different things

Well, let's look at that.
Before CB1, a character with supernatural PS of 30 could lift/carry a lot more than a character with normal PS of 30, but they'd have the same damage bonus (+15).
So I agree that Supernatural PS has always broken the laws of physics to some degree.
But at worst, you'd end up with situations where the stronger guy did the same damage as the weaker guy, not hundreds of times less.

No. You assumed that. Nowhere did it say that they had the same damage bonus.

and CB1 is when we got the rule before that there was no rule covering it at all.

Right, which means that it didn't inflict mega-damage.
Just like how right now, there's no rule stating that Supernatural Endurance allows you to inflict megadamage, therefore, Supernatural Endurance does not allow you to inflict mega-damage.
If there are no rules addressing a concept, introducing it into the game, then it's not in the game.

Dragons in the main book had supernatural strength and did MD.
Oh and without looking at my book and just going from memory dragons claws did 1D6MD plus their punch damage didn't they?

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Dr. Doom III wrote:Lifting and hitting strength in Palladium are two different things

Well, let's look at that.
Before CB1, a character with supernatural PS of 30 could lift/carry a lot more than a character with normal PS of 30, but they'd have the same damage bonus (+15).
So I agree that Supernatural PS has always broken the laws of physics to some degree.
But at worst, you'd end up with situations where the stronger guy did the same damage as the weaker guy, not hundreds of times less.

No. You assumed that. Nowhere did it say that they had the same damage bonus.

The damage bonus is listed in the book, with no qualifiers.
I don't have to assume- I read the rules.
There were no rules setting aside supernatural creatures as working differently in any way other than lifting/carrying power, ergo, they did not work differently in any other way.
Just like Juicers and Dog Boys, and all the other classes/races that list different lift/carry ratios than normal.

and CB1 is when we got the rule before that there was no rule covering it at all.

Right, which means that it didn't inflict mega-damage.
Just like how right now, there's no rule stating that Supernatural Endurance allows you to inflict megadamage, therefore, Supernatural Endurance does not allow you to inflict mega-damage.
If there are no rules addressing a concept, introducing it into the game, then it's not in the game.

Dragons in the main book had supernatural strength and did MD.

Actually, I don't think that's not quite accurate.
Dragons in the main book were supernatural creatures.
Dragons in the main book had strength.
But I'm pretty sure that there are no mentions, anywhere in the main book, of "supernatural strength" as a concept, as something distinct and different from the normal Strength attribute.

More importantly, correlation is not causation.
Dragons had the standard lift/carry ratio for supernatural creatures.
Dragons inflicted mega-damage with their natural attacks.
But this does not mean that the reason why they inflicted mega-damage with their natural attacks is because they had that supernatural lift/carry ratio.

Oh and without looking at my book and just going from memory dragons claws did 1D6MD plus their punch damage didn't they?

No.
The only mention of dragons being able to inflict MD in melee combat (that I can find) is on p. 98 of Rifts:
Note: Claws inflict 2d6 Mega-Damage, Bite does 2d4 Mega-Damage.

Note that Punch damage is never discussed, only claws and bite.
Note that the damages inflicted by a dragon's claws and bite are static: they are not based on the dragon's PS score. A dragon with PS of 30 inflicts 2d6 MD with his claws, and 2d4 MD with his bite. A dragon with PS of 5 inflicts 2d6 MD with his claws, and 2d4 MD with his bite.
Note also that in the descriptions of each dragon species, there is no note of "supernatural PS" anywhere (not in their attribute section, and not in their Natural Abilities section). That is because "supernatural strength" was not any more of a category of Strength than "Juicer Strength" or "Dog Boy Strength." Rules for a non-standard lift/carry ratio did not create a new Strength category, complete with its own damage system.
Not until CB1.

Now let's look at World Book 1, p. 150-153, in the description of the Pogtal species.
Like dragons, vampires, and every other race I'm aware of at this point that could inflict Mega-Damage, the amount of damage was static, a specific damage per attack that was not based on Physical Strength.
Like dragons, vampires, et. al., the Pogtal's attribute description makes no mention of "supernatural Strength."
Pogtals do list under their Natural Abilities, "inflicts MDC damage from punches, bites, and other attacks."
Pogtals can inflict mega-damage with their Full Strength Punch attacks, to the tune of 4d6 MD. As with dragons, vampires, etc., the Physical Strength attribute does not alter this damage: a Pogtal with PS 15 inflicts 4d6 MD, and a Pogtal with PS 40 inflicts 4d6 MD.

The Pogtals have another ability, one that is quite significant to our conversation: they have a special Energy Aura that allows them to inflict mega-damage with SDC objects. This is described on 151 of VK.
If the Pogtal, who can inflict 4d6 MD with a punch, picks up an SDC object, such as a tree trunk, or giant steel sword, their aura enhances these SDC weapons and allows them to inflict the 4d6 MD of the Pogtal's punch damage.
If a Pogtal picks up a magic weapon, the damage inflicted is either the punch damage or the weapon damage, whichever is higher.

This is the first precedent set for supernatural creatures inflciting MD with general melee weapons, and it works very much like the current rules for Supernatural Strength and melee, except the Pogtal's Energy Field helped keep SDC weapons from breaking when used.

Natural weapons do weapon damage plus supernatural punch damage. Dragon claws being one example. That has remained constant, though it wasn't until RUE that they actually acknowledge it, rather than just printing NPC/Monster stat blocks that included adding them together as they had been doing from the beginning, while the only rules we had said they shouldn't be doing that.