Love It or Leave It; Mega-Damage Poll

[Nightmask]

It's fine as it is, while it sounds easy to just declare 'well just knock off a decimal point' it throws many things out of balance as everything's scaled around the current ratio.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I have no problem with Mega damage.

My only problem is that vehicles don't have enough. MarkV APC's have less MD now days than some personal armor. lol But that's not a problem between MDC and SDC.

We just ramp up the tanks and stuff to about where they should be. (( We do the same with tank guns too))

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

I have no problem with the mega-damage 1:100 ratio.

I would like to see damage thresholds for various armor weights, for lack of a better term. A tank, for example, would have armor that is more or less impervious to a MD weapon that inflicted less than a certain amount of damage, say 5d6 MD, adjusted by attack types. A measly Wilks laser pistol doing 2d6 MD would just splash impotently off the tank. Robot vehicles, power armor, and EBA would each have correspondingly lower damage thresholds. Advancements in armor wouldn't always be about adding more MDC, but instead raising the threshold of weapons needed to actually damage the material.

There are a myriad of MD weapon types in Rifts and other MDC settings; rail guns, explosives, particle beams, plasma projectors, lasers, ion beams, magic of hundred sorts, and so on. Giving each different effects on armor thresholds would justify the diversity.

Why are particle beams so costly energy-wise and with such limited range in comparison to most other weapons, while not always possessing superior damage? Perhaps they would reduce the effective damage threshold of armor to a greater extent than other weapons? Rail guns are very heavy and offer limited ammunition; superior armor piercing qualities, maybe? Every weapon type could be assigned advantages and disadvantages based off of this concept.

EDIT: There are precedents for this in various SDC settings and we even have a specific material to compare between SDC and MDC. Kisentite, used in Rifts Earth by the Nuhr dwarves, it is a heavy MDC material that is nearly indestructible once forged[a simple dagger has something like 400 or 500 MDC, I think]. The Atorian Empire has access to it as well in the Aliens Unlimited offshoot of Heroes Unlimited. Armor made from kisentite in an SDC setting is impervious to damage from any attack inflicting less than 7d6 damage, IIRC.

[flatline]

I have no problem with Mega damage.

My only problem is that vehicles don't have enough. MarkV APC's have less MD now days than some personal armor. lol But that's not a problem between MDC and SDC.

We just ramp up the tanks and stuff to about where they should be. (( We do the same with tank guns too))

Pepsi,

I thought for sure you would be in the 1:3 or 1:10 areas-I thought i had seen a post as such-

Ah well wasn't the first (certainly not the last) time I've been wrong-

You probably were thinking of me. In the past I've played both 1:3 and 1:10 and I'm sure I've mentioned that in one of my many exchanges with Pepsi. Ironically, 1:3 made things far more lethal since people without access to military hardware could actually hurt you.

I voted for 1:3 because it still gives the advantage to MDC critters and hardware, but it brings damage levels back to the realm where intuition works again.

--flatline

[taalismn]

I'm fine with it, though I'd like to see some qualifiers like Armor Rating, for the sake of resisting(or allowing) certain specialized attacks.

[DhAkael]

I'm fine with it, though I'd liek to see some qualifiers like Armor Rating, for the sake of resisting(or allowing) certain specialized attacks.

Particularly armour peircing / severing styled attacks.

[DhAkael]

Oh and for the record *shrug* don't care either way; Kevin Siembiada aint getting any more money outta me for a 3RD edition.

[Killer Cyborg]

It's fine as it is, while it sounds easy to just declare 'well just knock off a decimal point' it throws many things out of balance as everything's scaled around the current ratio.

Agreed.

[Killer Cyborg]

I have no problem with Mega damage.

My only problem is that vehicles don't have enough. MarkV APC's have less MD now days than some personal armor. lol But that's not a problem between MDC and SDC.

We just ramp up the tanks and stuff to about where they should be. (( We do the same with tank guns too))

Why not ramp the body armor MDC down?

[flatline]

I have no problem with Mega damage.

My only problem is that vehicles don't have enough. MarkV APC's have less MD now days than some personal armor. lol But that's not a problem between MDC and SDC.

We just ramp up the tanks and stuff to about where they should be. (( We do the same with tank guns too))

Why not ramp the body armor MDC down?

I'm all for this. People should be SCARED of getting hit rather than "My armor's still got 38MDC. I'm good...".

--flatline

[Lenwen]

I have no problem with Mega damage.

My only problem is that vehicles don't have enough. MarkV APC's have less MD now days than some personal armor. lol But that's not a problem between MDC and SDC.

We just ramp up the tanks and stuff to about where they should be. (( We do the same with tank guns too))

Why not ramp the body armor MDC down?

Great question !

[dragonfett]

I have always felt that the ratio should have been 1:10, or 1:25 at the very least. I feel that conventional firearms should have still been more relevant than just for in towns and hunting in the wilderness (and even then I never used conventional firearms for hunting as all of my characters that have ever went hunting have done so after MD creatures anyway).

[Wooly]

Ratio change 1:10. Otherwise there can be no poor wilderness folk. Everyone needs MD weapons to
Survive but MD weapons are very expensive.

I'd like to see weapons effects and rule differences between plasma (burn damage over time?), particle beam (extra damage?), Ion, rail guns (armor piercing), lasers, et al.

[Wooly]

As for hunting...how big a role if any does hunting come into play in your campaigns.

If a town/city can detect and restrict MD weapons Why allow SDC firearms in either?

[flatline]

I have no problem with Mega damage.

My only problem is that vehicles don't have enough. MarkV APC's have less MD now days than some personal armor. lol But that's not a problem between MDC and SDC.

We just ramp up the tanks and stuff to about where they should be. (( We do the same with tank guns too))

Pepsi,

I thought for sure you would be in the 1:3 or 1:10 areas-I thought i had seen a post as such-

Ah well wasn't the first (certainly not the last) time I've been wrong-

You probably were thinking of me. In the past I've played both 1:3 and 1:10 and I'm sure I've mentioned that in one of my many exchanges with Pepsi. Ironically, 1:3 made things far more lethal since people without access to military hardware could actually hurt you.

I voted for 1:3 because it still gives the advantage to MDC critters and hardware, but it brings damage levels back to the realm where intuition works again.

--flatline

Yeah,
Your right, it was you flatline. I really thought the 1:3 idea, was good and original.

So are you playing currently and running a game like this?

The last time I played a Rifts game was probably around 2001. I'd love to play again, but given my current time constraints, it's extremely unlikely to happen. Maybe when the kids are old enough to show interest...

Overall, yes I am talking about a total revamp of the system-and something that others have already mentioned-Is that armors based on size and weight has to have some sort of cap, similar to that weapon damage, has to have some sort of cap-

With this in mind, I kind of see the perspective that the ratio is fine-as long as certain caps are in place-something obviously-in the Palladium system’s rearview at this point, but is attempting to revise without a total change with the system-this to me seens very hard to do.

I’m pretty certain it will never happen, but a total reboot would be great-

Splicers could be treated as a reboot. The official ratio is still 1:100, but it would be trivial to set another ratio since a complete disconnect between splicer tech and what we normally think of as SDC. And seriously, should a grub doing 1D10MD really be sufficient to destroy a modern tank on impact? Really?

Rifts is an awesome game (conceptually) the idea that every Palladium Line would mechanically connect was promising; unfortunately I think we missed the boat on that one.

Panomas-

We got lots of use out of rifting in characters from other palladium settings (N&SS, HU:Revised, Fantasy, and even Robotech) with minimal conversion problems, so I actually think that Palladium delivered on that promise pretty well. But if I ever start playing seriously again, I'll use Palladium's ideas but with another system. Wormwood and Splicers seem like low hanging fruits and if it goes well, maybe the rest of Rifts as well.

--flatline

[flatline]

As for hunting...how big a role if any does hunting come into play in your campaigns.

Never used SDC weapons for hunting. Grabbing a squirrel or rabbit via telekinesis or a deer via super telekinesis is way simpler and doesn't make any noise to give your position away. Once FoM was published, Sustain removed any need for us to hunt our own food.

--flatline

[Pepsi Jedi]

I have no problem with Mega damage.

My only problem is that vehicles don't have enough. MarkV APC's have less MD now days than some personal armor. lol But that's not a problem between MDC and SDC.

We just ramp up the tanks and stuff to about where they should be. (( We do the same with tank guns too))

Pepsi,

I thought for sure you would be in the 1:3 or 1:10 areas-I thought i had seen a post as such-

Ah well wasn't the first (certainly not the last) time I've been wrong-

Nope. I'm weird like that I guess. I've never had a problem with MDC. As stated above I just think some of the bigger things need more of it. I don't have a problem with my char's needing armor to survive. It's Sci-Fi/Fantasy. That's par for the course.

And I like Lightsabers. *Grins * or "Wilks Laser swords" if you like. They're clearly MD weapons.

[Killer Cyborg]

If a town/city can detect and restrict MD weapons Why allow SDC firearms in either?

If the cops all have EBA, and they're not too concerned with citizens hurting each other, why not?

Besides, SDC weapons are harder to keep out. It's not that easy to make a mega-damage zip gun (though it could be done...).

[Jedrious]

You forgot to put "Other" in the options

[Sureshot]

Imo MDC is fine it's the poor heavy weapons (vehilcle. giant robots etc) that need major reworking. No way no who should a rifle be doing more than a turrent mounted weapon. Even then the rifle should be a very special case.

[Killer Cyborg]

If I shoot a deer or elk with a laser rifle, i do not see the entire animal be vaporized or blown apart. Instead I see how the laser cut through the animal and instantly cauterize the wound, but the entire shock that goes through the animal kills it directly. It is not like the laser beam act as the magical bullet that hit JFK and jumps around, making u-turns and so on. The animals neural system just cant take it and dies.

House-rule as you will, but officially...
SB1, p. 6
... a deer, startled by the noise, makes a dash through open ground! The characer whirls around and blasts it with his mega-damage handgun, inflicting two MD! The animal is torn in half by the blast, and the medium size tree behind it is also split in half and falls over toward the character (it barely misses him). Behind the tree is a volleyball size swath cut through the bushes, some 50 yards long. At least the character has enough of the deer left to provide food for several days. hoever, he has made so much noise that every creature for a mile radius knows he's there. The deer's skin/fur is useless unless he wants to make a scarf or cap, and he narrowly averted being pinned or killed by the falling tree. Furthermore, what if the underbrush had been dry? He could have started a forest fire.

To be honest, Rifts is the most unfriendly book to a new GM that i have ever seen, in all RP games I have, you always get a little list on one or more pages with ready made monsters and/or enemies that you can toss in. Rifts: ultimate edition has none of these, neither has it any complete NPCs, instead I have to sit and make every NPC just like a character. I find this frustrating.

I understand.
The original Rifts book had a random monster generation table that was incredibly handy- I have no idea why they didn't reprint it in Rifts.
If you can find a copy of the original main book, buy it.
If not, Creatures of Chaos includes some expanded tables.
Also, the PFRPG book Monsters & Animals is very handy.

[Killer Cyborg]

If a town/city can detect and restrict MD weapons Why allow SDC firearms in either?

If the cops all have EBA, and they're not too concerned with citizens hurting each other, why not?

Besides, SDC weapons are harder to keep out. It's not that easy to make a mega-damage zip gun (though it could be done...).

We can detect zip guns at airports today I can easily see that some cities had salvaged these sensors and use them at the only gates in/out of the city.

It's easier to make a zip-gun inside a city than inside an airport.
Getting through the gate isn't the issue; it's what happens on the other side.

[Giant2005]

I love MDC.
The MDC system is absolutely terrifying - you get caught without your armor on or have it blown off and you will end up very, very dead.
In a SDC setting you still have a reasonable chance of survival without your armor, Rifts needs to be as terrifying as it can be.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I just see no reason to own or buy a SDC weapon in Rifts, I mean every monster and their aunt have MDC, all mages cast MDC shields and armours, all suited armour and vehicles are MDC. SDC is so not needed.
Every class have MDC armour and MD weapons.

There are plenty of reasons to own SDC weapons in an MDC setting. Would you like to try hunting for deer to eat as food with a Laser Rifle? You'd blow the deer apart or vaporize it. Also, some places, towns, kingdoms, etc, won't allow you to bring your MDC weapons along with you, but might not restrict SDC weapons. As someone that has been running Rifts (and Palladium games in general) since 1992, I've put my players in plenty of situations where SDC weapons were a more desirable choice. If you or your GM are just doing MDC all the time, you've missed out on some wonderful role-playing situations.

If I shoot a deer or elk with a laser rifle, i do not see the entire animal be vaporized or blown apart. Instead I see how the laser cut through the animal and instantly cauterize the wound, but the entire shock that goes through the animal kills it directly. It is not like the laser beam act as the magical bullet that hit JFK and jumps around, making u-turns and so on. The animals neural system just cant take it and dies.

I have never said that we always do this all the time, I just say that i see no point of having SDC as there are no monsters i have seen in any of my books, except vampires and other humanoids that have SDC/HP. Also, I have just started playing Rifts (i have played like 4 sessions and i am about to start my own GM:ing).

To be honest, Rifts is the most unfriendly book to a new GM that i have ever seen, in all RP games I have, you always get a little list on one or more pages with ready made monsters and/or enemies that you can toss in. Rifts: ultimate edition has none of these, neither has it any complete NPCs, instead I have to sit and make every NPC just like a character. I find this frustrating.

Stuff is spread out and found in weird places. One of the 'faults' of the RUE is that it's written, as if you've been playing Rifts for 15 years, and had about 15 years of books, BEFORE you got it.

If you need, instead of books for other games. I'd reccomend DBees of NA, and the Rifts Conversion book. Those two will get you all sorta things.

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

R:UE page 358 tends to agree more closely with Amanda than the SB1 text, KC.

[The Beast]

...I just say that i see no point of having SDC as there are no monsters i have seen in any of my books, except vampires and other humanoids that have SDC/HP...

Werebeasts (at least in the first CB they are)
Banshee
Zavor
Scorpion Devil
Owl-Thing
Grimbor
Gruunor
Feathered Death
Devil Diggers
Boogie-Man

Oddly the Mindolar in the original WB1 were HP only, then in CB1 the HP amount was converted to MDC, and then in DC it was doubled.

Of course once you get past the original WB1 I don't think there are any monsters that come without MDC.

[Pepsi Jedi]

...I just say that i see no point of having SDC as there are no monsters i have seen in any of my books, except vampires and other humanoids that have SDC/HP...

Werebeasts (at least in the first CB they are)
Banshee
Zavor
Scorpion Devil
Owl-Thing
Grimbor
Gruunor
Feathered Death
Devil Diggers
Boogie-Man

Oddly the Mindolar in the original WB1 were HP only, then in CB1 the HP amount was converted to MDC, and then in DC it was doubled.

Of course once you get past the original WB1 I don't think there are any monsters that come without MDC.

Werebeasts are special cases.

The rest came from Palladium fantasy don't they? Where people haven't even mastered gun powder, much less rail guns and laser rifles?

[The Beast]

...I just say that i see no point of having SDC as there are no monsters i have seen in any of my books, except vampires and other humanoids that have SDC/HP...

Werebeasts (at least in the first CB they are)
Banshee
Zavor
Scorpion Devil
Owl-Thing
Grimbor
Gruunor
Feathered Death
Devil Diggers
Boogie-Man

Oddly the Mindolar in the original WB1 were HP only, then in CB1 the HP amount was converted to MDC, and then in DC it was doubled.

Of course once you get past the original WB1 I don't think there are any monsters that come without MDC.

Werebeasts are special cases.

The rest came from Palladium fantasy don't they? Where people haven't even mastered gun powder, much less rail guns and laser rifles?

Banshee and Mindolar are from BTS.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I love MDC.
The MDC system is absolutely terrifying - you get caught without your armor on or have it blown off and you will end up very, very dead.
In a SDC setting you still have a reasonable chance of survival without your armor, Rifts needs to be as terrifying as it can be.

That being said, It only takes about 1 or 2 MDC to kill the toughest human without armor. One shot from a Wilks pistol (1D6) and your very likely dead-that fine. . .

Take that same MDC pistol to an SDC world and what happens?

I would really like to know peoples thoughts on this-or if there was some official rule I misssed.

Thanks

For some, the fact that a 5 year old can take a point blank shot from a .357, and very likely live via the dice, is a problem.

[Killer Cyborg]

R:UE page 358 tends to agree more closely with Amanda than the SB1 text, KC.

You mean the "guidelines" that allow a character to sometimes survive "a mega-damage energy blast that would normally kill or vaporize the character," "if the GM agrees?"

[Pepsi Jedi]

...I just say that i see no point of having SDC as there are no monsters i have seen in any of my books, except vampires and other humanoids that have SDC/HP...

Werebeasts (at least in the first CB they are)
Banshee
Zavor
Scorpion Devil
Owl-Thing
Grimbor
Gruunor
Feathered Death
Devil Diggers
Boogie-Man

Oddly the Mindolar in the original WB1 were HP only, then in CB1 the HP amount was converted to MDC, and then in DC it was doubled.

Of course once you get past the original WB1 I don't think there are any monsters that come without MDC.

Werebeasts are special cases.

The rest came from Palladium fantasy don't they? Where people haven't even mastered gun powder, much less rail guns and laser rifles?

Banshee and Mindolar are from BTS.

point being that other than the werebeast, they're 'conversions' from other places. (( I like the conversion book myself but yeah)) She's not finding them in rifts books.

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

R:UE page 358 tends to agree more closely with Amanda than the SB1 text, KC.

You mean the "guidelines" that allow a character to sometimes survive "a mega-damage energy blast that would normally kill or vaporize the character," "if the GM agrees?"

Yep, at least in relation to lasers. A laser focused finely enough to come from the barrel of any handheld weapon just isn't going to behave in a manner that would allow it to vaporize a person or animal such as a deer, no matter what ungodly level of power you feed through it.

Lasers don't work that way.

[Pepsi Jedi]

R:UE page 358 tends to agree more closely with Amanda than the SB1 text, KC.

You mean the "guidelines" that allow a character to sometimes survive "a mega-damage energy blast that would normally kill or vaporize the character," "if the GM agrees?"

Yep, at least in relation to lasers. A laser focused finely enough to come from the barrel of any handheld weapon just isn't going to behave in a manner that would allow it to vaporize a person or animal such as a deer, no matter what ungodly level of power you feed through it.

Here's where one of the guys comes swooping in with the rapid heating and explosive steam from blood and tissue and trama and stuff, but they type alot more words and what not. lol

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

R:UE page 358 tends to agree more closely with Amanda than the SB1 text, KC.

You mean the "guidelines" that allow a character to sometimes survive "a mega-damage energy blast that would normally kill or vaporize the character," "if the GM agrees?"

Yep, at least in relation to lasers. A laser focused finely enough to come from the barrel of any handheld weapon just isn't going to behave in a manner that would allow it to vaporize a person or animal such as a deer, no matter what ungodly level of power you feed through it.

Here's where one of the guys comes swooping in with the rapid heating and explosive steam from blood and tissue and trama and stuff, but they type alot more words and what not. lol

Doesn't bother me if someone wants to be wrong.

[Killer Cyborg]

R:UE page 358 tends to agree more closely with Amanda than the SB1 text, KC.

You mean the "guidelines" that allow a character to sometimes survive "a mega-damage energy blast that would normally kill or vaporize the character," "if the GM agrees?"

Yep, at least in relation to lasers. A laser focused finely enough to come from the barrel of any handheld weapon just isn't going to behave in a manner that would allow it to vaporize a person or animal such as a deer, no matter what ungodly level of power you feed through it.

Lasers don't work that way.

They do in Rifts.

[Incriptus]

I'm not sure why people want SDC to be relevant. It's like complaining that modern soldiers can't get by using slings and spears. . . or in a Naval Battle people can't play with a Wooden Frigate that fires cannons. Yeah a Cruiser or a Destroyer is going to be 100x more powerful than the Frigate . . . because one is new technology and the other is 500 years old.

As mentioned a few times earlier in this thread I think the part that strains people's imagination is the fact that personal weapons and personal armor very effective. I think one of the big problems is that we live in an age where weapons are substancially more powerful than armor. A guy throwing a spear, or flinging a stone from a sling can still kill one of our soldiers. Personal armor just hasn't been that good compared to the weapons in ages. Even worse personal weapons/armor is very efficient compared to vehicular weapons/armors. I'm almost inclined to say that is a "feature" rather than a "bug". A big part of the theme to Rifts is human augmentation. Since pretty much all of us play a single character, having personal weapons/armor be effective may actually improve the enjoyment of the game.

I personally just accept it as it is. I allow myself to believe that there is simply a point of diminishing returns when it comes to super-science. Eventually you get to the point where doubling the thickness of the armor, or the energy of the laser just doesn't get you the same return. It does strain credibility at times, but for the last 20 years i've been able to get through it.

I have been considering my own fix to the personal / vehicular divide. Basically it comes down to two points. 1 - Vehicular armor has multiple body sections based on it's size. 2 - Vehicular weapons strike multiple body sections at once.

I think that this simple change would go a long way towards fixing that divide. Personal weapons will still put holes in vehicular armor, but you have to deplete a much larger amount of MDC to disable the vehicle. Vehicle weapons will strike all those body sections, thus appearing to do much greater damage. On the other hand the Vehical striking a personal armor, that armore will take the damage to all the body parts. You might survive that 1d6x10 damage to your main body, but consider your hands and feat burned off! Not to mention all your equipment being turned to slag . . . but you'll live to see another day. It might be a bit too brutal, and far from perfect, but like I said just an idea i'm kicking around

--------------
Now before I press post it's pretty obvious i've kinda gotten to rambeling off subject. Ultimately I'm fine with 1:100 ratio. I like the idea of 500 year old technology being nearly completely obsolete.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm not sure why people want SDC to be relevant.

Because the majority of the inhabitants of Rifts Earth are SDC.

I'm almost inclined to say that is a "feature" rather than a "bug".

And you'd be right, for the most part.

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

Like Pepsi Jedi said, the heat produced from the laser would not only be vaporizing whole sections of this poor deer, but it could very well be turning the air into plasma around it. Remember that these lasers are thousands of times more powerful than industrial lasers today (which all produce heat), and impossibly dense to boot. thats what the whole "misting" thing was refering to in RUE.

Congrats on being incorrect, Johnny.

Rifts being a sci-fi role-playing game, everyone is quite able to throw out whatever natural laws they wish; it's par for the course. You can even call some miscellaneous imaginary energy weapon a laser and pretend to know what effects it would have on a flesh and blood body, but it won't really be a laser, because that's not how lasers behave.

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

Like Pepsi Jedi said, the heat produced from the laser would not only be vaporizing whole sections of this poor deer, but it could very well be turning the air into plasma around it. Remember that these lasers are thousands of times more powerful than industrial lasers today (which all produce heat), and impossibly dense to boot. thats what the whole "misting" thing was refering to in RUE.

Congrats on being incorrect, Johnny.

Rifts being a sci-fi role-playing game, everyone is quite able to throw out whatever natural laws they wish; it's par for the course. You can even call some miscellaneous imaginary energy weapon a laser and pretend to know what effects it would have on a flesh and blood body, but it won't really be a laser, because that's not how lasers behave.

It doesn't really matter what everyone here states to be correct or incorrect about how lasers behave. The POINT is that what happens when an MDC laser hits an unprotected SDC target HAS BEEN COVERED in SB1. That is the OFFICIAL ruling. If anyone is doing it differently in their games, then they are utilizing HOUSE RULES.

Actually, the text KC referenced that everyone is taking as dogma never mentions a laser at all. If you look in the book and read the entire excerpt, it says energy pistol. It could be an ion weapon, a plasma projector, or a particle beam. Any one of those would be more likely to cause the significant trauma described than a handheld laser weapon.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I love MDC.
The MDC system is absolutely terrifying - you get caught without your armor on or have it blown off and you will end up very, very dead.
In a SDC setting you still have a reasonable chance of survival without your armor, Rifts needs to be as terrifying as it can be.

That being said, It only takes about 1 or 2 MDC to kill the toughest human without armor. One shot from a Wilks pistol (1D6) and your very likely dead-that fine. . .

Take that same MDC pistol to an SDC world and what happens?

I would really like to know peoples thoughts on this-or if there was some official rule I misssed.

Thanks

For some, the fact that a 5 year old can take a point blank shot from a .357, and very likely live via the dice, is a problem.

You don't have any kids-do you?

Two. 9 and 12.

[glitterboy2098]

I'd like to see weapons effects and rule differences between plasma (burn damage over time?), particle beam (extra damage?), Ion, rail guns (armor piercing), lasers, et al.

Agreed. FWIW, I've thought about using:

• Rail Gun (bursts) - Knockback/down on a natural 15 or higher. Loss of initiative and one melee action.
• Particle Beam - Damages invulnerable opponents as per HU rules (usually 1/2 damage).
• Ion Beam - Haven't thought much about this. Ion weapons are kind of the red-headed step children of Rifts energy weapons. Possibly an anti-electronics or neural-stun like effect on crit.

when i last looked at these types of effects, i went with particle beams as having secondary radiation effects (as you'd get from ones of that power), so they can leave lingering damage on targets not immune to radiation.

Ion weapons i gave a chance to inflict SDC damage through MDC armor on crits, in addition to the normal damage, due to erosion effects from the charged particles.

Plasma had thermal effects (caused anything flammable along the path of the shot to catch fire, and even a miss, if it didn't miss by too much on the strike roll, could inflict some damage due to thermal transfer effects of a near miss.)

[flatline]

Rifts being a sci-fi role-playing game, everyone is quite able to throw out whatever natural laws they wish; it's par for the course.

What you've just described is not science fiction. If you throw out natural laws willy-nilly, then you're left with fantasy. Science fiction requires that you think through the consequences of the changes you make. With that in mind, Rifts is CLEARLY not science fiction.

--flatline

[earthhawk]

I just see no reason to own or buy a SDC weapon in Rifts, I mean every monster and their aunt have MDC, all mages cast MDC shields and armours, all suited armour and vehicles are MDC. SDC is so not needed.
Every class have MDC armour and MD weapons.

If this is true how are you going to hunt animals and eat? If you use an MDC weapon on let's say a deer or bear, you'll vaporize it. The innate problem with MDC weapons is that they throw everything out of wack. Here's the other issue: most MDC combat in takes in place in SDC environments. For example: If you are in a fighting in a forest and firing MDC weapons, you'll more than likely torch the area, start a massive fire, and altogether destroy it. Same goes when fighting in pre-Rifts cities with sky-scrapers and other buildings made of non-MDC or limited MDC materials. What happens to those lasers, particle-beams, and missles that miss their targets? Where do they land? What do they hit? Ever see a combat zone after a fire-fight using conventional SDC weapons? Now multiply that damage by 100. I understand the concept of MDC but it's the implementation that is lacking.

[Nightmask]

I just see no reason to own or buy a SDC weapon in Rifts, I mean every monster and their aunt have MDC, all mages cast MDC shields and armours, all suited armour and vehicles are MDC. SDC is so not needed.
Every class have MDC armour and MD weapons.

If this is true how are you going to hunt animals and eat? If you use an MDC weapon on let's say a deer or bear, you'll vaporize it. The innate problem with MDC weapons is that they throw everything out of wack. Here's the other issue: most MDC combat in takes in place in SDC environments. For example: If you are in a fighting in a forest and firing MDC weapons, you'll more than likely torch the area, start a massive fire, and altogether destroy it. Same goes when fighting in pre-Rifts cities with sky-scrapers and other buildings made of non-MDC or limited MDC materials. What happens to those lasers, particle-beams, and missles that miss their targets? Where do they land? What do they hit? Ever see a combat zone after a fire-fight using conventional SDC weapons? Now multiply that damage by 100. I understand the concept of MDC but it's the implementation that is lacking.

Well you could hunt with mega-damage weapons like vibro-swords, it would be a bit absurd to insist you'd vaporize a deer with a slash from such a sword for example rather than more sensibly rule that you simply cut it neatly in half or removed its head killing it instantly. Just as a called shot to its head should just decapitate it. But certainly for parties that don't handwave away food and have to hunt you really need either SDC weapons to hunt with or magic that can trap animals so you can kill them by hand.

[ShadowLogan]

The poll really needs an Option 4: Something else.

I think MDC and SDC should be at 1:1, with the difference being in how AR is handled.

For MD capable attacks, AR is ignored as in the rules already. Damage is as listed (1:1 ratio, maybe increase missile damage by x10 for SRM+).

For MD defense, AR would merely be a high value for an SDC based attack that should be very difficult to penetrate (maybe even impossible w/o MD attacks).

[Nightmask]

Well you could hunt with mega-damage weapons like vibro-swords, it would be a bit absurd to insist you'd vaporize a deer with a slash from such a sword for example rather than more sensibly rule that you simply cut it neatly in half or removed its head killing it instantly. Just as a called shot to its head should just decapitate it. But certainly for parties that don't handwave away food and have to hunt you really need either SDC weapons to hunt with or magic that can trap animals so you can kill them by hand.

I'd definetely be inclinfed to believe that, especially since vibro-knives possess near-medical prescision as of Chaos Earth. I think the real problem would be trying to maintain control on a normal strike roll, since you don't want to go carving the thing up and the deers body isn't really slowing down the knife in the least.

Being a bit squeamish I'd be more concerned about slashing it and having to watch it spilling all of its internal organs all over the place in a scene more suited to a slasher film. But if you're slashing along its side rather than having it charging at you there isn't much to worry about in regards to being injured by it, particularly if you're using MDC level protection.

[flatline]

Well you could hunt with mega-damage weapons like vibro-swords, it would be a bit absurd to insist you'd vaporize a deer with a slash from such a sword for example rather than more sensibly rule that you simply cut it neatly in half or removed its head killing it instantly. Just as a called shot to its head should just decapitate it. But certainly for parties that don't handwave away food and have to hunt you really need either SDC weapons to hunt with or magic that can trap animals so you can kill them by hand.

I'd definetely be inclinfed to believe that, especially since vibro-knives possess near-medical prescision as of Chaos Earth. I think the real problem would be trying to maintain control on a normal strike roll, since you don't want to go carving the thing up and the deers body isn't really slowing down the knife in the least.

Being a bit squeamish I'd be more concerned about slashing it and having to watch it spilling all of its internal organs all over the place in a scene more suited to a slasher film. But if you're slashing along its side rather than having it charging at you there isn't much to worry about in regards to being injured by it, particularly if you're using MDC level protection.

I'm not particularly squeamish, but once the Sustain spell got published, I stopped hunting entirely. If you can avoid it, hunting is a huge waste of time.

--flatline

[earthhawk]

Well you could hunt with mega-damage weapons like vibro-swords, it would be a bit absurd to insist you'd vaporize a deer with a slash from such a sword for example rather than more sensibly rule that you simply cut it neatly in half or removed its head killing it instantly. Just as a called shot to its head should just decapitate it. But certainly for parties that don't handwave away food and have to hunt you really need either SDC weapons to hunt with or magic that can trap animals so you can kill them by hand.

I'd definetely be inclinfed to believe that, especially since vibro-knives possess near-medical prescision as of Chaos Earth. I think the real problem would be trying to maintain control on a normal strike roll, since you don't want to go carving the thing up and the deers body isn't really slowing down the knife in the least.

Being a bit squeamish I'd be more concerned about slashing it and having to watch it spilling all of its internal organs all over the place in a scene more suited to a slasher film. But if you're slashing along its side rather than having it charging at you there isn't much to worry about in regards to being injured by it, particularly if you're using MDC level protection.

I'm not particularly squeamish, but once the Sustain spell got published, I stopped hunting entirely. If you can avoid it, hunting is a huge waste of time.

--flatline

The human body needs to eat. The mechanics involved release much needed hormones, antibodies, and nutrients. As your GM I would allow you to use the sustain spell, but not forgo the need the eat fresh vegetables, fruit, or even meat. Of course this is coming from a biology major

[flatline]

Well you could hunt with mega-damage weapons like vibro-swords, it would be a bit absurd to insist you'd vaporize a deer with a slash from such a sword for example rather than more sensibly rule that you simply cut it neatly in half or removed its head killing it instantly. Just as a called shot to its head should just decapitate it. But certainly for parties that don't handwave away food and have to hunt you really need either SDC weapons to hunt with or magic that can trap animals so you can kill them by hand.

I'd definetely be inclinfed to believe that, especially since vibro-knives possess near-medical prescision as of Chaos Earth. I think the real problem would be trying to maintain control on a normal strike roll, since you don't want to go carving the thing up and the deers body isn't really slowing down the knife in the least.

Being a bit squeamish I'd be more concerned about slashing it and having to watch it spilling all of its internal organs all over the place in a scene more suited to a slasher film. But if you're slashing along its side rather than having it charging at you there isn't much to worry about in regards to being injured by it, particularly if you're using MDC level protection.

I'm not particularly squeamish, but once the Sustain spell got published, I stopped hunting entirely. If you can avoid it, hunting is a huge waste of time.

--flatline

The human body needs to eat. The mechanics involved release much needed hormones, antibodies, and nutrients. As your GM I would allow you to use the sustain spell, but not forgo the need the eat fresh vegetables, fruit, or even meat. Of course this is coming from a biology major

The human body also needs breathable air, yet Sustain takes care of that, too.

--flatline

[Nightmask]

Well you could hunt with mega-damage weapons like vibro-swords, it would be a bit absurd to insist you'd vaporize a deer with a slash from such a sword for example rather than more sensibly rule that you simply cut it neatly in half or removed its head killing it instantly. Just as a called shot to its head should just decapitate it. But certainly for parties that don't handwave away food and have to hunt you really need either SDC weapons to hunt with or magic that can trap animals so you can kill them by hand.

I'd definetely be inclinfed to believe that, especially since vibro-knives possess near-medical prescision as of Chaos Earth. I think the real problem would be trying to maintain control on a normal strike roll, since you don't want to go carving the thing up and the deers body isn't really slowing down the knife in the least.

Being a bit squeamish I'd be more concerned about slashing it and having to watch it spilling all of its internal organs all over the place in a scene more suited to a slasher film. But if you're slashing along its side rather than having it charging at you there isn't much to worry about in regards to being injured by it, particularly if you're using MDC level protection.

I'm not particularly squeamish, but once the Sustain spell got published, I stopped hunting entirely. If you can avoid it, hunting is a huge waste of time.

--flatline

The human body needs to eat. The mechanics involved release much needed hormones, antibodies, and nutrients. As your GM I would allow you to use the sustain spell, but not forgo the need the eat fresh vegetables, fruit, or even meat. Of course this is coming from a biology major

That kind of defeats the purpose of the spell, which explicitly replaces all need to consume food for the duration of the spell.