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I was wondering, for people who travel dimensionally, do you ever rift between these game settings?

The reason being, it seems pretty much canon that these three are all in the same temporal continuity. CE is presented as the Rifts prequel and Victor Lazlo went from BtS to Rifts Africa and his friend Lo Fung was waiting for him.

For those who do, do you accept that Rifts can send people through time, as well as space?

Do you only allow people to travel forward (Bts>Rifts, BtS>CE, CE>Rifts) but not backward?

They're not related, Rifts Africa notwithstanding. BtS Earth and Rifts Earth are officially in completely different dimensions that happen to share certain elements. The KLS and Cyberworks corporations from Heroes Unlimited also make an appearance in Rifts, and Rifts Earth is clearly not HU Earth, future or otherwise.

Still, if you WANT them to be the same dimension, there's nothing wrong with that, and they should work well together. Events will still be pretty much the same, except that monsters and people with mystical powers will have already existed before the Coming of the Rifts (presumably unacknowledged and undetected by the masses), and some people and organizations will be better prepared for (and possibly forewarned of) the impending apocalypse. It is possible that the Lazlo Agency -- or some future incarnation thereof -- would join forces with NEMA to help fend off invading monsters. Undoubtedly, a large number of Para-Arcanes will be legitimate Parapsychologists with ties to the Lazlo Agency or a similar organization.

Evil Genius Prime wrote:

Tinker Dragoon wrote:They're not related, Rifts Africa notwithstanding. BtS Earth and Rifts Earth are officially in completely different dimensions that happen to share certain elements.

Actually this isn't true. Kevin has stated before that BtS is indeed Rifts past. Which means that Chaos Earth and Rifts are the future of BtS. I'm sure others here on the forums will be able to back me up on this.

I haven't heard that one.

triax2 confirms Vic lazlo's status as timetraveller, not a dimensional traveller as well.

Evil Genius Prime wrote:

Tinker Dragoon wrote:They're not related, Rifts Africa notwithstanding. BtS Earth and Rifts Earth are officially in completely different dimensions that happen to share certain elements.

Actually this isn't true. Kevin has stated before that BtS is indeed Rifts past. Which means that Chaos Earth and Rifts are the future of BtS. I'm sure others here on the forums will be able to back me up on this.

I got your back. My crew and I have always played the timeline of BtS rolls into CE, and THAT rolls into Rifts. Even if it wasn't "canon", I would've made it that way for us. Just makes sense.
As far as travelling forward and backward in time, I allow both as a "rift" is a tear in space and TIME, but travelling backwards is WAAAAAAY harder to accomplish and one of the "Laws of Nature" state that the past CANNOT be changed. If events ARE changed, then by those very actions an alternate timeline is created. Getting back to your "original timeline" then proves very tricky and even if one THINKS they made it back, the "butterfly effect" always changes SOMETHING(S). Play with it. It can be used as a Megaversal "reset button" with a little creativity.

PhellaOne wrote:

Evil Genius Prime wrote:

Tinker Dragoon wrote:They're not related, Rifts Africa notwithstanding. BtS Earth and Rifts Earth are officially in completely different dimensions that happen to share certain elements.

Actually this isn't true. Kevin has stated before that BtS is indeed Rifts past. Which means that Chaos Earth and Rifts are the future of BtS. I'm sure others here on the forums will be able to back me up on this.

I got your back. My crew and I have always played the timeline of BtS rolls into CE, and THAT rolls into Rifts. Even if it wasn't "canon", I would've made it that way for us. Just makes sense.
As far as travelling forward and backward in time, I allow both as a "rift" is a tear in space and TIME, but travelling backwards is WAAAAAAY harder to accomplish and one of the "Laws of Nature" state that the past CANNOT be changed. If events ARE changed, then by those very actions an alternate timeline is created. Getting back to your "original timeline" then proves very tricky and even if one THINKS they made it back, the "butterfly effect" always changes SOMETHING(S). Play with it. It can be used as a Megaversal "reset button" with a little creativity.

That quickly became a hotly debated (and soon locked) thread some months ago, regarding BtS being Rifts Earth's past. You had bitter denial 'fighting the good fight' against the material and Word Of God that it is.

Evil Genius Prime wrote:

Tinker Dragoon wrote:They're not related, Rifts Africa notwithstanding. BtS Earth and Rifts Earth are officially in completely different dimensions that happen to share certain elements.

Actually this isn't true. Kevin has stated before that BtS is indeed Rifts past. Which means that Chaos Earth and Rifts are the future of BtS. I'm sure others here on the forums will be able to back me up on this.

No, its not true at least not anymore. Its stated in Rifts® Dimension Book™ 4: Skraypers™ that BtS Earth and Rifts Earth are separate dimensions.

Evil Genius Prime wrote:

Shawn Merrow wrote:

Evil Genius Prime wrote:

Tinker Dragoon wrote:They're not related, Rifts Africa notwithstanding. BtS Earth and Rifts Earth are officially in completely different dimensions that happen to share certain elements.

Actually this isn't true. Kevin has stated before that BtS is indeed Rifts past. Which means that Chaos Earth and Rifts are the future of BtS. I'm sure others here on the forums will be able to back me up on this.

No, its not true at least not anymore. Its stated in Rifts® Dimension Book™ 4: Skraypers™ that BtS Earth and Rifts Earth are separate dimensions.

Ugh. I hate retcons.

Meanwhile other material clearly AFTER that book makes it clear that Skraypers is wrong on that point and BtS IS the past of Rifts and Chaos Earth.

Nightmask wrote:

Evil Genius Prime wrote:

Shawn Merrow wrote:

Evil Genius Prime wrote:

Tinker Dragoon wrote:They're not related, Rifts Africa notwithstanding. BtS Earth and Rifts Earth are officially in completely different dimensions that happen to share certain elements.

Actually this isn't true. Kevin has stated before that BtS is indeed Rifts past. Which means that Chaos Earth and Rifts are the future of BtS. I'm sure others here on the forums will be able to back me up on this.

No, its not true at least not anymore. Its stated in Rifts® Dimension Book™ 4: Skraypers™ that BtS Earth and Rifts Earth are separate dimensions.

Ugh. I hate retcons.

Meanwhile other material clearly AFTER that book makes it clear that Skraypers is wrong on that point and BtS IS the past of Rifts and Chaos Earth.

Mind clarifing nad stating exactly \WHAT material after Skraypers says this? I don't recall very much regarding this after Skraypers came out. Only the material prior to Skraypers that touched on it.

jaymz wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Meanwhile other material clearly AFTER that book makes it clear that Skraypers is wrong on that point and BtS IS the past of Rifts and Chaos Earth.

Mind clarifing nad stating exactly \WHAT material after Skraypers says this? I don't recall very much regarding this after Skraypers came out. Only the material prior to Skraypers that touched on it.

Every book where Victor Lazlo comes up refers to him as being a time travel from before the Cataclysm, apparently including in Triax 2. His disappearance from BtS is described canonically as him traveling forward until the present days of Rifts Earth and beings known to have taken the slow path (i.e. lived from the days of BtS to the present days of Rifts Earth) recognize Lazlo as the one that they knew prior to the event and he them.

Nightmask wrote:

jaymz wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Meanwhile other material clearly AFTER that book makes it clear that Skraypers is wrong on that point and BtS IS the past of Rifts and Chaos Earth.

Mind clarifing nad stating exactly \WHAT material after Skraypers says this? I don't recall very much regarding this after Skraypers came out. Only the material prior to Skraypers that touched on it.

Every book where Victor Lazlo comes up refers to him as being a time travel from before the Cataclysm, apparently including in Triax 2. His disappearance from BtS is described canonically as him traveling forward until the present days of Rifts Earth and beings known to have taken the slow path (i.e. lived from the days of BtS to the present days of Rifts Earth) recognize Lazlo as the one that they knew prior to the event and he them.

So you would rather take some minor passages (and lets be honest they are minor passages in these books) over a full blown multi page document written by Kevin himself that says BtS is NOT the past of Rifts Earth?

jaymz wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

jaymz wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Meanwhile other material clearly AFTER that book makes it clear that Skraypers is wrong on that point and BtS IS the past of Rifts and Chaos Earth.

Mind clarifing nad stating exactly \WHAT material after Skraypers says this? I don't recall very much regarding this after Skraypers came out. Only the material prior to Skraypers that touched on it.

Every book where Victor Lazlo comes up refers to him as being a time travel from before the Cataclysm, apparently including in Triax 2. His disappearance from BtS is described canonically as him traveling forward until the present days of Rifts Earth and beings known to have taken the slow path (i.e. lived from the days of BtS to the present days of Rifts Earth) recognize Lazlo as the one that they knew prior to the event and he them.

So you would rather take some minor passages (and lets be honest they are minor passages in these books) over a full blown multi page document written by Kevin himself that says BtS is NOT the past of Rifts Earth?

Funny how people will go on about 'oh no the latest stuff is all that matters' EXCEPT when they don't like the later stuff. That document was written after BtS was stated to be the past of Rifts Earth, and then material after that continued to state that Bts is the past of Rifts Earth. So what do we go with then, one document that's been refuted by every other place you look that clearly Palladium itself doesn't consider to be valid or by the body of material that says the document is or never was actually considered canon? Because there are no minor passages, you only want to dismiss them as minor as they are evidence that the document has been dismissed as being canon, just as Chaos Earth went from not being the past of Rifts Earth to being the past of Rifts Earth.

I am not one of those people. I take all of it as it is. Many of those minor passages are quite contradictory (in general not this subject specifically). Thus I myself would lend more credence to a lengthy article over a few minor passages, but that's just me.

PhellaOne wrote:

Evil Genius Prime wrote:

Tinker Dragoon wrote:They're not related, Rifts Africa notwithstanding. BtS Earth and Rifts Earth are officially in completely different dimensions that happen to share certain elements.

Actually this isn't true. Kevin has stated before that BtS is indeed Rifts past. Which means that Chaos Earth and Rifts are the future of BtS. I'm sure others here on the forums will be able to back me up on this.

I got your back. My crew and I have always played the timeline of BtS rolls into CE, and THAT rolls into Rifts. Even if it wasn't "canon", I would've made it that way for us. Just makes sense.
As far as travelling forward and backward in time, I allow both as a "rift" is a tear in space and TIME, but travelling backwards is WAAAAAAY harder to accomplish and one of the "Laws of Nature" state that the past CANNOT be changed. If events ARE changed, then by those very actions an alternate timeline is created. Getting back to your "original timeline" then proves very tricky and even if one THINKS they made it back, the "butterfly effect" always changes SOMETHING(S). Play with it. It can be used as a Megaversal "reset button" with a little creativity.

Does it make sense to you? If so, use it. If not, don't.

I honestly can't believe we argue over things like that when the slogan of the company is "Limited only by your imagination!" Not "Limited only by Kevin's imagination!" Kevin doesn't even follow his OWN rules and you guys are arguing about what's "canon". Do it the way you want. You paid for the books, it's YOUR GAME.

While the three could be the all the same universe, they are intrinsically separated by the eras they portray.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:While the three could be the all the same universe, they are intrinsically separated by the eras they portray.

An acceptable distinction.

people really should read the wb4 africa , itsbawhole heck of alot,

rifts is the future of bts

Sorry iPad auto correct

PhellaOne wrote:one of the "Laws of Nature" state that the past CANNOT be changed. If events ARE changed, then by those very actions an alternate timeline is created.

Transdimensional TMNT's Savanti Romero being imprisoned for attempting to edit out Lord Simultaneous from the timestream kinda implies you CAN change the past though

Shawn Merrow wrote:No, its not true at least not anymore. Its stated in Rifts® Dimension Book™ 4: Skraypers™ that BtS Earth and Rifts Earth are separate dimensions.

I have Skraypers, which page was it again? Would like to re-read.

jaymz wrote:So you would rather take some minor passages (and lets be honest they are minor passages in these books) over a full blown multi page document written by Kevin himself that says BtS is NOT the past of Rifts Earth?

Which multi-page document? Kevin also wrote Rifts Africa and stuff I think. If it came from a writer other than Kev I could see deferring to primary honcho but if there happened to be contrasting evidences from the same source, going by chronology (first versus recent, etc) makes sense.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:While the three could be the all the same universe, they are intrinsically separated by the eras they portray.

Yeah but so are TMNT and AtB yet they're also pretty clearly past/future.

Mutants in Orbit I'm not entirely sure as it seems to fit into both AtB and Rifts, which is plain confusing. Odds are it represents things that exist in different ways in both realities.

@Tor in the back of Skraypers Kevin wrote how all of the various "Earths" that Palladium portrays are not connected to one another directly at all. IE BtS "earth" is not the past of Rifts Earth nor is any other "earth". Now that obviously does not include Chaos Earth as it predates that game and we KNOW Chaos Earth is in fact Pre-Rifts.

jaymz wrote:@Tor in the back of Skraypers Kevin wrote how all of the various "Earths" that Palladium portrays are not connected to one another directly at all. IE BtS "earth" is not the past of Rifts Earth nor is any other "earth". Now that obviously does not include Chaos Earth as it predates that game and we KNOW Chaos Earth is in fact Pre-Rifts.

I don't buy that the information in WB 4 , two dragons ,one was a friend with victor lazlo, the same one who disappears and show up in Germany 300 years later, meanwhile both dragon live thru the coming of the rifts.

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

jaymz wrote:@Tor in the back of Skraypers Kevin wrote how all of the various "Earths" that Palladium portrays are not connected to one another directly at all. IE BtS "earth" is not the past of Rifts Earth nor is any other "earth". Now that obviously does not include Chaos Earth as it predates that game and we KNOW Chaos Earth is in fact Pre-Rifts.

I don't buy that the information in WB 4 , two dragons ,one was a friend with victor lazlo, the same one who disappears and show up in Germany 300 years later, meanwhile both dragon live thru the coming of the rifts.

That's your choice. Take it up with Kevin. I don't buy it took 3 years for the CS to defeat Tolkeen. However written material says otherwise. Skraypers is Post WB4 and has a larger essay like treatment as to the whys and wherefores so I'll take that over small passages in different books.

Edit - rewrote the post.

and triax2 is post-skraypers, and reiterates the timetravel stance of WB4.

Tor wrote:

Shawn Merrow wrote:No, its not true at least not anymore. Its stated in Rifts® Dimension Book™ 4: Skraypers™ that BtS Earth and Rifts Earth are separate dimensions.

I have Skraypers, which page was it again? Would like to re-read.

It starts on page 133.

glitterboy2098 wrote:and triax2 is post-skraypers, and reiterates the timetravel stance of WB4.

Correct it does which is why I specified I take the longer article in Skraypers over the smaller passages spread over multiple books.

Edit - and while it does post date it is consistent with material that pre-dates Skraypers so it is a matter of choosing to ignore something that is consistent with earlier material which may possibly be superceded by a later product than the original information came from.

Look his isn't the first time there is inconsistencies in the books. You choose to ignore the megaversal applicable article in Skraypers. That's your choice. I choose to ignore the minor passages int eh books that contradict the major article. That's my choice.

None of us can 100% state our way is right, official, canon or otherwise so why don't we just drop it at that?

jaymz wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

jaymz wrote:@Tor in the back of Skraypers Kevin wrote how all of the various "Earths" that Palladium portrays are not connected to one another directly at all. IE BtS "earth" is not the past of Rifts Earth nor is any other "earth". Now that obviously does not include Chaos Earth as it predates that game and we KNOW Chaos Earth is in fact Pre-Rifts.

I don't buy that the information in WB 4 , two dragons ,one was a friend with victor lazlo, the same one who disappears and show up in Germany 300 years later, meanwhile both dragon live thru the coming of the rifts.

That's your choice. Take it up with Kevin. I don't buy it took 3 years for the CS to defeat Tolkeen. However written material says otherwise. Skraypers is Post WB4 and has a larger essay like treatment as to the whys and wherefores so I'll take that over small passages in different books.

Edit - rewrote the post.

I know it just screams of double talk

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

jaymz wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

jaymz wrote:@Tor in the back of Skraypers Kevin wrote how all of the various "Earths" that Palladium portrays are not connected to one another directly at all. IE BtS "earth" is not the past of Rifts Earth nor is any other "earth". Now that obviously does not include Chaos Earth as it predates that game and we KNOW Chaos Earth is in fact Pre-Rifts.

I don't buy that the information in WB 4 , two dragons ,one was a friend with victor lazlo, the same one who disappears and show up in Germany 300 years later, meanwhile both dragon live thru the coming of the rifts.

That's your choice. Take it up with Kevin. I don't buy it took 3 years for the CS to defeat Tolkeen. However written material says otherwise. Skraypers is Post WB4 and has a larger essay like treatment as to the whys and wherefores so I'll take that over small passages in different books.

Edit - rewrote the post.

I know it just screams of double talk

And this surprises you with the Rifts setting material?

jaymz wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

jaymz wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

jaymz wrote:@Tor in the back of Skraypers Kevin wrote how all of the various "Earths" that Palladium portrays are not connected to one another directly at all. IE BtS "earth" is not the past of Rifts Earth nor is any other "earth". Now that obviously does not include Chaos Earth as it predates that game and we KNOW Chaos Earth is in fact Pre-Rifts.

I don't buy that the information in WB 4 , two dragons ,one was a friend with victor lazlo, the same one who disappears and show up in Germany 300 years later, meanwhile both dragon live thru the coming of the rifts.

That's your choice. Take it up with Kevin. I don't buy it took 3 years for the CS to defeat Tolkeen. However written material says otherwise. Skraypers is Post WB4 and has a larger essay like treatment as to the whys and wherefores so I'll take that over small passages in different books.

Edit - rewrote the post.

I know it just screams of double talk

And this surprises you with the Rifts setting material?

nope

Tor wrote:

PhellaOne wrote:one of the "Laws of Nature" state that the past CANNOT be changed. If events ARE changed, then by those very actions an alternate timeline is created.

Transdimensional TMNT's Savanti Romero being imprisoned for attempting to edit out Lord Simultaneous from the timestream kinda implies you CAN change the past though

Umm, you should read the rest of my post.
I'm sure it MAY SEEM like the "original" timeline, but if you changed the past then it's an alternate timeline. You just haven't noticed what the differences are. Nature's solution to the "Grandfather Paradox" is creating alternate, infinite timelines.

PhellaOne wrote:

Tor wrote:

PhellaOne wrote:one of the "Laws of Nature" state that the past CANNOT be changed. If events ARE changed, then by those very actions an alternate timeline is created.

Transdimensional TMNT's Savanti Romero being imprisoned for attempting to edit out Lord Simultaneous from the timestream kinda implies you CAN change the past though

Umm, you should read the rest of my post.
I'm sure it MAY SEEM like the "original" timeline, but if you changed the past then it's an alternate timeline. You just haven't noticed what the differences are. Nature's solution to the "Grandfather Paradox" is creating alternate, infinite timelines.

You should read the actual Trandimensional TMNT book, it's NOT an alternate timeline and you can indeed alter your own timeline.

EDIT:

Left off noting that not all universes/dimensions have the same temporal laws and just because some universes are multiverses where timelines split anytime someone tries to alter their past (like Marvel) not all are. Some universes one can indeed travel back in time and alter their own history with the universe just shrugging and leaving them untouched in spite of doing anything and everything up to and including rendering the human race extinct including their parents before they were born. Other settings (like Pre-Crisis DC) while you can go back if your presence will change history you're rendered physically intangible unable to interact to change things (and yet sometimes history is shown to actually be a result of stable time loops in the DCU, so apparently the universe was built with time loops ).

Nightmask wrote:

PhellaOne wrote:

Tor wrote:

PhellaOne wrote:one of the "Laws of Nature" state that the past CANNOT be changed. If events ARE changed, then by those very actions an alternate timeline is created.

Transdimensional TMNT's Savanti Romero being imprisoned for attempting to edit out Lord Simultaneous from the timestream kinda implies you CAN change the past though

Umm, you should read the rest of my post.
I'm sure it MAY SEEM like the "original" timeline, but if you changed the past then it's an alternate timeline. You just haven't noticed what the differences are. Nature's solution to the "Grandfather Paradox" is creating alternate, infinite timelines.

You should read the actual Trandimensional TMNT book, it's NOT an alternate timeline and you can indeed alter your own timeline.

Not according to real world physics, sorry. But as fantastic as our "games" may be, I try to incorporate real-world physics whenever possible. Not gonna argue, do what you will in YOUR game.

Edited P.S. - If you're going to use the books as a source of fact, look at pg.82 of World Book Three: England under the spell "Time Warp: Space & Time" for my support on "in-game" physics. I believe WB3 came out AFTER TMNT which seems to imply (justly so, in my opinion) on these Forums that later books supercede earlier "canon".

PhellaOne wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

PhellaOne wrote:

Tor wrote:

PhellaOne wrote:one of the "Laws of Nature" state that the past CANNOT be changed. If events ARE changed, then by those very actions an alternate timeline is created.

Transdimensional TMNT's Savanti Romero being imprisoned for attempting to edit out Lord Simultaneous from the timestream kinda implies you CAN change the past though

Umm, you should read the rest of my post.
I'm sure it MAY SEEM like the "original" timeline, but if you changed the past then it's an alternate timeline. You just haven't noticed what the differences are. Nature's solution to the "Grandfather Paradox" is creating alternate, infinite timelines.

You should read the actual Trandimensional TMNT book, it's NOT an alternate timeline and you can indeed alter your own timeline.

Not according to real world physics, sorry. But as fantastic as our "games" may be, I try to incorporate real-world physics whenever possible. Not gonna argue, do what you will in YOUR game.

Edited P.S. - If you're going to use the books as a source of fact, look at pg.82 of World Book Three: England under the spell "Time Warp: Space & Time" for my support on "in-game" physics. I believe WB3 came out AFTER TMNT which seems to imply (justly so, in my opinion) on these Forums that later books supercede earlier "canon".

It's REALLY ridiculous to insist on 'real world physics' when it comes to something like time travel when said physics can't say anything definitive on alternate universes, divergent/parallel timelines, or for sure whether or not Time Travel is even possible. Seriously, if you've got any time travel in a game you've said 'bye bye' to real life physics. I can't imagine why you'd even attempt to toss out something like 'RL physics' over something like time travel and alternate realities.

The material on Time magic in WB3 can't supercede Transdimensional TMNT either because Rifts isn't TMNT, what applies to time travel in Rifts (and not like they've been clear on anything about that) doesn't apply in the TMNT universe because their rules are firmly set by the comics and in the comics you can travel through time and change your reality without question it's the established canon for the setting that's beyond the control of Palladium. It doesn't matter what applies to Rifts it doesn't apply to TMNT and the temporal magic spells don't speak to what's the real deal with time travel in Rifts in any case.

Nightmask wrote:

PhellaOne wrote:Not according to real world physics, sorry. But as fantastic as our "games" may be, I try to incorporate real-world physics whenever possible. Not gonna argue, do what you will in YOUR game.

Edited P.S. - If you're going to use the books as a source of fact, look at pg.82 of World Book Three: England under the spell "Time Warp: Space & Time" for my support on "in-game" physics. I believe WB3 came out AFTER TMNT which seems to imply (justly so, in my opinion) on these Forums that later books supercede earlier "canon".

It's REALLY ridiculous to insist on 'real world physics' when it comes to something like time travel when said physics can't say anything definitive on alternate universes, divergent/parallel timelines, or for sure whether or not Time Travel is even possible. Seriously, if you've got any time travel in a game you've said 'bye bye' to real life physics. I can't imagine why you'd even attempt to toss out something like 'RL physics' over something like time travel and alternate realities.

The material on Time magic in WB3 can't supercede Transdimensional TMNT either because Rifts isn't TMNT, what applies to time travel in Rifts (and not like they've been clear on anything about that) doesn't apply in the TMNT universe because their rules are firmly set by the comics and in the comics you can travel through time and change your reality without question it's the established canon for the setting that's beyond the control of Palladium. It doesn't matter what applies to Rifts it doesn't apply to TMNT and the temporal magic spells don't speak to what's the real deal with time travel in Rifts in any case.

Don't know much about physics, huh? Either relativistic or quantum? Fair enough. No need to continue then. Play your game.

PhellaOne wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

PhellaOne wrote:Not according to real world physics, sorry. But as fantastic as our "games" may be, I try to incorporate real-world physics whenever possible. Not gonna argue, do what you will in YOUR game.

Edited P.S. - If you're going to use the books as a source of fact, look at pg.82 of World Book Three: England under the spell "Time Warp: Space & Time" for my support on "in-game" physics. I believe WB3 came out AFTER TMNT which seems to imply (justly so, in my opinion) on these Forums that later books supercede earlier "canon".

It's REALLY ridiculous to insist on 'real world physics' when it comes to something like time travel when said physics can't say anything definitive on alternate universes, divergent/parallel timelines, or for sure whether or not Time Travel is even possible. Seriously, if you've got any time travel in a game you've said 'bye bye' to real life physics. I can't imagine why you'd even attempt to toss out something like 'RL physics' over something like time travel and alternate realities.

The material on Time magic in WB3 can't supercede Transdimensional TMNT either because Rifts isn't TMNT, what applies to time travel in Rifts (and not like they've been clear on anything about that) doesn't apply in the TMNT universe because their rules are firmly set by the comics and in the comics you can travel through time and change your reality without question it's the established canon for the setting that's beyond the control of Palladium. It doesn't matter what applies to Rifts it doesn't apply to TMNT and the temporal magic spells don't speak to what's the real deal with time travel in Rifts in any case.

Don't know much about physics, huh? Either relativistic or quantum? Fair enough. No need to continue then. Play your game.

Actually....his knowledge of it is rather irrelevant truth be told. Theoretical physics is just that. Theoretical. Until you can in fact show me or anyone else an alternate universe anyway

jaymz wrote:

PhellaOne wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

PhellaOne wrote:Not according to real world physics, sorry. But as fantastic as our "games" may be, I try to incorporate real-world physics whenever possible. Not gonna argue, do what you will in YOUR game.

Edited P.S. - If you're going to use the books as a source of fact, look at pg.82 of World Book Three: England under the spell "Time Warp: Space & Time" for my support on "in-game" physics. I believe WB3 came out AFTER TMNT which seems to imply (justly so, in my opinion) on these Forums that later books supercede earlier "canon".

It's REALLY ridiculous to insist on 'real world physics' when it comes to something like time travel when said physics can't say anything definitive on alternate universes, divergent/parallel timelines, or for sure whether or not Time Travel is even possible. Seriously, if you've got any time travel in a game you've said 'bye bye' to real life physics. I can't imagine why you'd even attempt to toss out something like 'RL physics' over something like time travel and alternate realities.

The material on Time magic in WB3 can't supercede Transdimensional TMNT either because Rifts isn't TMNT, what applies to time travel in Rifts (and not like they've been clear on anything about that) doesn't apply in the TMNT universe because their rules are firmly set by the comics and in the comics you can travel through time and change your reality without question it's the established canon for the setting that's beyond the control of Palladium. It doesn't matter what applies to Rifts it doesn't apply to TMNT and the temporal magic spells don't speak to what's the real deal with time travel in Rifts in any case.

Don't know much about physics, huh? Either relativistic or quantum? Fair enough. No need to continue then. Play your game.

Actually....his knowledge of it is rather irrelevant truth be told. Theoretical physics is just that. Theoretical. Until you can in fact show me or anyone else an alternate universe anyway

Which was my point, you can't point to RL physics regarding time travel because they're all theories without any means of verifying if the theory is actually valid (just as theories that say tachyons exist and those that they don't are equally valid without being able to prove definitively that tachyons do or don't exist). Which apparently shows someone's far more ignorant of RL physics than he insultingly accused me of.

'Well that's not how it works RL' is in the really ridiculous category to make for a claim when you're talking diverse RPG settings where time travel does exist (along with supernatural beings that travel between dimensions as easily as one can walk across their room, a 4-dimensional super-god, and actual magic to name a few) and we're told how time travel works in the one. 'No it doesn't work how the authors of the setting say it does' is way out there when you're telling the writers of the comic/game setting that 'hey you got how time travel works all wrong, it's like how Marvel comics depicts it'.

jaymz wrote:

PhellaOne wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

PhellaOne wrote:Not according to real world physics, sorry. But as fantastic as our "games" may be, I try to incorporate real-world physics whenever possible. Not gonna argue, do what you will in YOUR game.

Edited P.S. - If you're going to use the books as a source of fact, look at pg.82 of World Book Three: England under the spell "Time Warp: Space & Time" for my support on "in-game" physics. I believe WB3 came out AFTER TMNT which seems to imply (justly so, in my opinion) on these Forums that later books supercede earlier "canon".

It's REALLY ridiculous to insist on 'real world physics' when it comes to something like time travel when said physics can't say anything definitive on alternate universes, divergent/parallel timelines, or for sure whether or not Time Travel is even possible. Seriously, if you've got any time travel in a game you've said 'bye bye' to real life physics. I can't imagine why you'd even attempt to toss out something like 'RL physics' over something like time travel and alternate realities.

The material on Time magic in WB3 can't supercede Transdimensional TMNT either because Rifts isn't TMNT, what applies to time travel in Rifts (and not like they've been clear on anything about that) doesn't apply in the TMNT universe because their rules are firmly set by the comics and in the comics you can travel through time and change your reality without question it's the established canon for the setting that's beyond the control of Palladium. It doesn't matter what applies to Rifts it doesn't apply to TMNT and the temporal magic spells don't speak to what's the real deal with time travel in Rifts in any case.

Don't know much about physics, huh? Either relativistic or quantum? Fair enough. No need to continue then. Play your game.

Actually....his knowledge of it is rather irrelevant truth be told. Theoretical physics is just that. Theoretical. Until you can in fact show me or anyone else an alternate universe anyway

ANY game with a sci-fi theme is based on real-world physics. Do your lasers shoot water? Your power armor run on gasoline? Are your "mini-missles" three feet long? No? Why not? Real World Physics. Theoretical or applied.
Sounds like he's running a game worth missing.

PhellaOne wrote:

jaymz wrote:

PhellaOne wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

PhellaOne wrote:Not according to real world physics, sorry. But as fantastic as our "games" may be, I try to incorporate real-world physics whenever possible. Not gonna argue, do what you will in YOUR game.

Edited P.S. - If you're going to use the books as a source of fact, look at pg.82 of World Book Three: England under the spell "Time Warp: Space & Time" for my support on "in-game" physics. I believe WB3 came out AFTER TMNT which seems to imply (justly so, in my opinion) on these Forums that later books supercede earlier "canon".

It's REALLY ridiculous to insist on 'real world physics' when it comes to something like time travel when said physics can't say anything definitive on alternate universes, divergent/parallel timelines, or for sure whether or not Time Travel is even possible. Seriously, if you've got any time travel in a game you've said 'bye bye' to real life physics. I can't imagine why you'd even attempt to toss out something like 'RL physics' over something like time travel and alternate realities.

The material on Time magic in WB3 can't supercede Transdimensional TMNT either because Rifts isn't TMNT, what applies to time travel in Rifts (and not like they've been clear on anything about that) doesn't apply in the TMNT universe because their rules are firmly set by the comics and in the comics you can travel through time and change your reality without question it's the established canon for the setting that's beyond the control of Palladium. It doesn't matter what applies to Rifts it doesn't apply to TMNT and the temporal magic spells don't speak to what's the real deal with time travel in Rifts in any case.

Don't know much about physics, huh? Either relativistic or quantum? Fair enough. No need to continue then. Play your game.

Actually....his knowledge of it is rather irrelevant truth be told. Theoretical physics is just that. Theoretical. Until you can in fact show me or anyone else an alternate universe anyway

ANY game with a sci-fi theme is based on real-world physics. Do your lasers shoot water? Your power armor run on gasoline? Are your "mini-missles" three feet long? No? Why not? Real World Physics. Theoretical or applied.
Sounds like he's running a game worth missing.

ANY game that's got magic isn't running on real-world physics, and no matter what ridiculous stuff you toss out to cloud the issue you're dead wrong on the issue of real world physics in this case. Unprovable theoretical physics is in the end nonsense, if it can't be proven to be valid it has no more value than whatever you hallucinate while on LSD. Now if you want to treat unproven nonsense as if it actually applied to the real world go for it but you're dead wrong insisting that it's real physics because without proof it's just speculation and science fiction not science fact. You're also dead wrong to insist that when you're told the physics of a setting that 'no that's wrong it works this way because that's how I think it works in the real world'. The physics work the way you're told they do, if you're playing in the TMNT setting time travel can be used to change your own past, it does NOT diverge alternate timelines as happens in the Marvel universe sometimes because we're told it doesn't work that way.

Rifts meanwhile doesn't give us any clue how time travel actually works or if it works in multiple ways depending on the method of time travel. It's left so vague that it's clearly up to the GM what methods of time travel and such work and what ones don't.

Nightmask wrote:

PhellaOne wrote:

jaymz wrote:

PhellaOne wrote:

Nightmask wrote:It's REALLY ridiculous to insist on 'real world physics' when it comes to something like time travel when said physics can't say anything definitive on alternate universes, divergent/parallel timelines, or for sure whether or not Time Travel is even possible. Seriously, if you've got any time travel in a game you've said 'bye bye' to real life physics. I can't imagine why you'd even attempt to toss out something like 'RL physics' over something like time travel and alternate realities.

The material on Time magic in WB3 can't supercede Transdimensional TMNT either because Rifts isn't TMNT, what applies to time travel in Rifts (and not like they've been clear on anything about that) doesn't apply in the TMNT universe because their rules are firmly set by the comics and in the comics you can travel through time and change your reality without question it's the established canon for the setting that's beyond the control of Palladium. It doesn't matter what applies to Rifts it doesn't apply to TMNT and the temporal magic spells don't speak to what's the real deal with time travel in Rifts in any case.

Don't know much about physics, huh? Either relativistic or quantum? Fair enough. No need to continue then. Play your game.

Actually....his knowledge of it is rather irrelevant truth be told. Theoretical physics is just that. Theoretical. Until you can in fact show me or anyone else an alternate universe anyway

ANY game with a sci-fi theme is based on real-world physics. Do your lasers shoot water? Your power armor run on gasoline? Are your "mini-missles" three feet long? No? Why not? Real World Physics. Theoretical or applied.
Sounds like he's running a game worth missing.

ANY game that's got magic isn't running on real-world physics, and no matter what ridiculous stuff you toss out to cloud the issue you're dead wrong on the issue of real world physics in this case. Unprovable theoretical physics is in the end nonsense, if it can't be proven to be valid it has no more value than whatever you hallucinate while on LSD. Now if you want to treat unproven nonsense as if it actually applied to the real world go for it but you're dead wrong insisting that it's real physics because without proof it's just speculation and science fiction not science fact. You're also dead wrong to insist that when you're told the physics of a setting that 'no that's wrong it works this way because that's how I think it works in the real world'. The physics work the way you're told they do, if you're playing in the TMNT setting time travel can be used to change your own past, it does NOT diverge alternate timelines as happens in the Marvel universe sometimes because we're told it doesn't work that way.

Rifts meanwhile doesn't give us any clue how time travel actually works or if it works in multiple ways depending on the method of time travel. It's left so vague that it's clearly up to the GM what methods of time travel and such work and what ones don't.

So are you saying that if you went back in time and killed your grandfather, the timeline would adjust to your not being born to go back and shoot your grandfather in the first place? Or would you just create an alternate timeline in which you were never born? You're supporting the idea of paradoxes.
Whatever, dude. It's your game (thank God). Play it however.

PhellaOne wrote:

Nightmask wrote:ANY game with a sci-fi theme is based on real-world physics. Do your lasers shoot water? Your power armor run on gasoline? Are your "mini-missles" three feet long? No? Why not? Real World Physics. Theoretical or applied.
Sounds like he's running a game worth missing.

ANY game that's got magic isn't running on real-world physics, and no matter what ridiculous stuff you toss out to cloud the issue you're dead wrong on the issue of real world physics in this case. Unprovable theoretical physics is in the end nonsense, if it can't be proven to be valid it has no more value than whatever you hallucinate while on LSD. Now if you want to treat unproven nonsense as if it actually applied to the real world go for it but you're dead wrong insisting that it's real physics because without proof it's just speculation and science fiction not science fact. You're also dead wrong to insist that when you're told the physics of a setting that 'no that's wrong it works this way because that's how I think it works in the real world'. The physics work the way you're told they do, if you're playing in the TMNT setting time travel can be used to change your own past, it does NOT diverge alternate timelines as happens in the Marvel universe sometimes because we're told it doesn't work that way.

Rifts meanwhile doesn't give us any clue how time travel actually works or if it works in multiple ways depending on the method of time travel. It's left so vague that it's clearly up to the GM what methods of time travel and such work and what ones don't.

So are you saying that if you went back in time and killed your grandfather, the timeline would adjust to your not being born to go back and shoot your grandfather in the first place? Or would you just create an alternate timeline in which you were never born? You're supporting the idea of paradoxes.
Whatever, dude. It's your game (thank God). Play it however.[/quote]

In TMNT YES you can go back in time and kill your grandfather without it eliminating yourself, that's not my game that's the actual canon rules which you apparently can't comprehend for some reason. It's not my game, it's not some house rule, it's the rules for the TMNT universe setting as presented in the Transdimensional TMNT book based on the original comic universe. The universe starts doing revisions that grow steadily more expansive until the present day exists based on the change made in the past which doesn't affect any time travelers or those outside reality because it renders them immune to the revisions. When you return to the present day it's like It's A Wonderful Life (or are you going to insist that the movie has things wrong too? ), you exist but as far as the world is concerned you never did and events regarding you have gone differently.

Meanwhile again you can insist that it's real world physics you're talking about but you aren't, you aren't even remotely discussing proven physics regarding time travel, you're only talking contradictory mathematical constructs that you're raising to a level of certainty that does not and never has existed. One theory says tachyons exists, one says they don't, both look perfectly valid mathematically yet obviously both can't be right as they're mutually exclusive. You are trying to insist both are real world physics and valid just because they're mathematically sound even though neither has physical evidence to make one more likely than another. Same with the unproven theories on time travel, as they haven't been tested and can't be they aren't real world physics, as in they don't describe actual physical properties of the universe like gravity or Planks Constant do. Until it's possible to test them somehow you're insisting on something that's not even remotely real physics as being real. It's not, as any reputable scientist will tell you.

Nightmask wrote:In TMNT YES you can go back in time and kill your grandfather without it eliminating yourself, that's not my game that's the actual canon rules which you apparently can't comprehend for some reason. It's not my game, it's not some house rule, it's the rules for the TMNT universe setting as presented in the Transdimensional TMNT book based on the original comic universe. The universe starts doing revisions that grow steadily more expansive until the present day exists based on the change made in the past which doesn't affect any time travelers or those outside reality because it renders them immune to the revisions. When you return to the present day it's like It's A Wonderful Life (or are you going to insist that the movie has things wrong too? ), you exist but as far as the world is concerned you never did and events regarding you have gone differently.

Wow, you play "straight outta da book", don't ya? (No matter how inconsistent the books are? Sounds like your time-line.) I'm done...
Haven't done this in awhile...
Foe'd.

PhellaOne wrote:

Nightmask wrote:In TMNT YES you can go back in time and kill your grandfather without it eliminating yourself, that's not my game that's the actual canon rules which you apparently can't comprehend for some reason. It's not my game, it's not some house rule, it's the rules for the TMNT universe setting as presented in the Transdimensional TMNT book based on the original comic universe. The universe starts doing revisions that grow steadily more expansive until the present day exists based on the change made in the past which doesn't affect any time travelers or those outside reality because it renders them immune to the revisions. When you return to the present day it's like It's A Wonderful Life (or are you going to insist that the movie has things wrong too? ), you exist but as far as the world is concerned you never did and events regarding you have gone differently.

Wow, you play "straight outta da book", don't ya? (No matter how inconsistent the books are? Sounds like your time-line.) I'm done...
Haven't done this in awhile...
Foe'd.

Like that's going to bother me, someone who can't comprehend that it's not an inconsistent book being discussed but how the TMNT setting works nor can they comprehend that they aren't talking science at all when they insist we have proven equations regarding how time travel works and worse try and insist the setting is pure science-fiction while reality warping magical beings and fantastic creatures that couldn't possibly exist in our reality are walking around.

I'd like to remind people to please refrain from personal attacks.

The Rules wrote:To keep the issue simple, when responding to a post, always respond to the topic at hand, not the way someone posts, thinks, or lives.

And what about page 59 in the Revised Conversion Book One?

Where it is mentioned several times about BTS being considered Rifts Earth 100 years before the eruption of the Ley Lines...

Just saying, Skraypers and Triax 2 have both been reference, so I figured I would throw this one in as well...

This is probably my favorite topic to discuss in the megaverse and it almost always gets locked. I hope it doesn't this time, which would make me sad.

Anyways it always essentially breaks down into two camps. (1) BTS is Rifts distant past because of what is written in the text, particularly events surrounding Victor Lazlo as reported by Erin Tarn and (2) Statements directly made by the author contradicting what is perceived by previously stated characters (the voice of God if you will)

Here's my take and thought process. If we take the writings by Kevin in his own voice about how the universe(s) operate, then it is a matter of fact that BTS and Rifts are different dimensions. However, regardless of this fact, very studious scholars (Erin Tarn and Victor Lazlo) are unable to differentiate the BTS from the distant past of Rifts earth. Long lived beings that exist both on the BTS world and Rifts earth are unable to distinguish the two as well. In fact, if we were given a Victor Lazlo writing, or given a picture of his dragon friend from the BTS world, it would be impossible for the characters or us as readers to determine if it was in fact from BTS or if it was from Rifts Earth. This being the case, the fact that BTS earth and Rifts past earth are completely indistinguishable makes it a moot point if they are identical twin dimensions or if they are in fact the same place. In other words we can use BTS as a history for Rifts and we can use Chaos earth and Rifts in order to predict the future for BTS, regardless if they are the same dimension just at different points in the time line or if they are separate dimensions but ones that are completely identical. I'd also like to point out if they are separate, completely identical dimensions, us at different points in their own history, then the knowledge of them being identical dimensions is superfluous, it in no way will change how we view one or the other in terms of how they relate to each other, so even if they are, it's worthless information and we might as well consider them just the past and the future of one another respectively because that is just a simpler explanation.

I also want to comment on this whole conversation of RW physics regarding time travel. I think part of the problem is that we are using gross equivocation when it comes to the term theory. Time travel is not a theory, parallel dimensions/universes are also not a theory, and they are pure speculation at worst and at best an untested, untestable hypothesis. So for example, Gravity is a theory, we can make predictions based on the equations about how the universe operates, we can then make models and test those predications, and because gravity is a theory those predications will be very accurate. We have no way to detect alternate dimensions/universes or even detect whether or not there is anything outside of our universe, so any theories regarding anything outside of our universe are not theories, they are just speculation. Secondly, it’s very likely that time travel is impossible outside of possibly compressing/expanding time via traveling at very high speeds; this in fact is testable, we know that if someone travels in a space shuttle for 2 days exactly, slightly more than 2 days passes on earth because the guy orbiting is traveling at a speed greater than the people on the planet and ever so slightly compresses time relative to him. Another point regarding this, if we allow the rule that paradoxes cannot occur, but instead an alternate dimension is created whenever someone travels in the pass, this will case an ad infinitum paradox in the rifts universe. A powerful shifter, let's say lord Splynn, can effectively create dimensions at will. He has powerful pyramids and understands pyramid magic, and has a massive reserve of PPE. Therefore he could open a rift to 10 minutes in the pass to exactly where he knows his past self is, then tell his past self (10 minutes in the past) to do the same thing right at this second, thus altering the future, creating a new universe, his past selves then all do the same thing, and they all agree to meet up in the original splynn's pyramid at X time on X date in the future. Now Splynn has an army of an infinite number of Spynns. They can then take over the entire universe given their immense power and leave one Splynn behind to rule it, and then go do the same thing in all the other dimensions they created. Therefore if that theory of creating alternate dimension timelines is correct, all time lines would require that lord Splynn, or some other really powerful shifter, has done this and is now supreme ruler of the megaverse. This is not the case, so this theory just doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

There's a much simpler explanation for the discrepancies: too much overlap between Rifts and Palladium's other intellectual properties is problematic when licensing Rifts to other media. Hence why RUE tossed out the Palladium Fantasy dragons, why Phase World's Wolfen are now Wulfen, and why Chaos Earth presents a world of Rifts' past that contradicts BTS.

But really, none of that matters. If you want to use them together, there's nothing wrong with that, you just have to tweak some things to make them work.

For example, in a world where Arcanists exist, the Blue Zone Wizard loses any credible claim to being the ancestor of the Ley Line Walker, as much of the knowledge he is supposed to be "rediscovering" is already well-known to the magical community. Of course, I'm talking about BTS1 Arcanists. For all we know, the BTS2 Arcanist, should it ever see print, may very well have similar limitations as the Zoner.

The Para-Arcane and Parapsychologist are very similar -- so similar, in fact, that one might wish to merge them into a single class, or allow the Para-Arcane to select some of the Parapsychologist's special abilities.

I think BTS has a better system for determining characters' skills, especially for Rise of Magic characters, who seem to be severely short-changed in the skill department.

Tinker Dragoon wrote:There's a much simpler explanation for the discrepancies: too much overlap between Rifts and Palladium's other intellectual properties is problematic when licensing Rifts to other media. Hence why RUE tossed out the Palladium Fantasy dragons, why Phase World's Wolfen are now Wulfen, and why Chaos Earth presents a world of Rifts' past that contradicts BTS.

But really, none of that matters. If you want to use them together, there's nothing wrong with that, you just have to tweak some things to make them work.

For example, in a world where Arcanists exist, the Blue Zone Wizard loses any credible claim to being the ancestor of the Ley Line Walker, as much of the knowledge he is supposed to be "rediscovering" is already well-known to the magical community. Of course, I'm talking about BTS1 Arcanists. For all we know, the BTS2 Arcanist, should it ever see print, may very well have similar limitations as the Zoner.

The Para-Arcane and Parapsychologist are very similar -- so similar, in fact, that one might wish to merge them into a single class, or allow the Para-Arcane to select some of the Parapsychologist's special abilities.

I think BTS has a better system for determining characters' skills, especially for Rise of Magic characters, who seem to be severely short-changed in the skill department.

Yeah I pretty much agree completely. Personally I think Rifts losing something very valuable to it's core when it's divorced from BTS. The consistancies between BTS and Rifts (at least 1st edition BTS and pre RUE rifts) added so much flavor and history to the world. Trying to seperate the two of them at this point just makes no sense in the worlds (Victor Lazlo is no longer a major player in the Rifts timeline; umm why is the city named Lazlo then; IT JUST IS!) and makes rifts earth feel much more hollow of a place. Oh well, it's not my intellectual property and I don't have to worry about trying to profit off of it. I will say though that BTS is the first RPG I really got into, it really captured my imagination, about 20 years ago, and BTS is what got me into Rifts, so regardless of what is canon, I keep to the idea BtS is the prequel to CE which is the prequel to Rifts.

Nah, there's an even simpler explanation; Kevin doesn't reread his own work and regularly forgets that he wrote something one way and then writes something completely different BECAUSE he forgot and then doesn't want to go back and re-write what shouldn't have been written.
I agree that Rifts loses something due to it's not being connected to BtS, there was a very distinct flavor to it and all this new writing/ rewriting has deadend that in some ways.

keir451 wrote:Nah, there's an even simpler explanation; Kevin doesn't reread his own work and regularly forgets that he wrote something one way and then writes something completely different BECAUSE he forgot and then doesn't want to go back and re-write what shouldn't have been written.
I agree that Rifts loses something due to it's not being connected to BtS, there was a very distinct flavor to it and all this new writing/ rewriting has deadend that in some ways.

Yeah that's true. I still have the RMB and 1st Ed BTS and those are the foundation for my settings and I just omit anything in the newer books that contradict those

zaccheus wrote:This is probably my favorite topic to discuss in the megaverse and it almost always gets locked. I hope it doesn't this time, which would make me sad.

Anyways it always essentially breaks down into two camps. (1) BTS is Rifts distant past because of what is written in the text, particularly events surrounding Victor Lazlo as reported by Erin Tarn and (2) Statements directly made by the author contradicting what is perceived by previously stated characters (the voice of God if you will)

Here's my take and thought process. If we take the writings by Kevin in his own voice about how the universe(s) operate, then it is a matter of fact that BTS and Rifts are different dimensions. However, regardless of this fact, very studious scholars (Erin Tarn and Victor Lazlo) are unable to differentiate the BTS from the distant past of Rifts earth. Long lived beings that exist both on the BTS world and Rifts earth are unable to distinguish the two as well. In fact, if we were given a Victor Lazlo writing, or given a picture of his dragon friend from the BTS world, it would be impossible for the characters or us as readers to determine if it was in fact from BTS or if it was from Rifts Earth. This being the case, the fact that BTS earth and Rifts past earth are completely indistinguishable makes it a moot point if they are identical twin dimensions or if they are in fact the same place. In other words we can use BTS as a history for Rifts and we can use Chaos earth and Rifts in order to predict the future for BTS, regardless if they are the same dimension just at different points in the time line or if they are separate dimensions but ones that are completely identical. I'd also like to point out if they are separate, completely identical dimensions, us at different points in their own history, then the knowledge of them being identical dimensions is superfluous, it in no way will change how we view one or the other in terms of how they relate to each other, so even if they are, it's worthless information and we might as well consider them just the past and the future of one another respectively because that is just a simpler explanation.

I also want to comment on this whole conversation of RW physics regarding time travel. I think part of the problem is that we are using gross equivocation when it comes to the term theory. Time travel is not a theory, parallel dimensions/universes are also not a theory, and they are pure speculation at worst and at best an untested, untestable hypothesis. So for example, Gravity is a theory, we can make predictions based on the equations about how the universe operates, we can then make models and test those predications, and because gravity is a theory those predications will be very accurate. We have no way to detect alternate dimensions/universes or even detect whether or not there is anything outside of our universe, so any theories regarding anything outside of our universe are not theories, they are just speculation. Secondly, it’s very likely that time travel is impossible outside of possibly compressing/expanding time via traveling at very high speeds; this in fact is testable, we know that if someone travels in a space shuttle for 2 days exactly, slightly more than 2 days passes on earth because the guy orbiting is traveling at a speed greater than the people on the planet and ever so slightly compresses time relative to him. Another point regarding this, if we allow the rule that paradoxes cannot occur, but instead an alternate dimension is created whenever someone travels in the pass, this will case an ad infinitum paradox in the rifts universe. A powerful shifter, let's say lord Splynn, can effectively create dimensions at will. He has powerful pyramids and understands pyramid magic, and has a massive reserve of PPE. Therefore he could open a rift to 10 minutes in the pass to exactly where he knows his past self is, then tell his past self (10 minutes in the past) to do the same thing right at this second, thus altering the future, creating a new universe, his past selves then all do the same thing, and they all agree to meet up in the original splynn's pyramid at X time on X date in the future. Now Splynn has an army of an infinite number of Spynns. They can then take over the entire universe given their immense power and leave one Splynn behind to rule it, and then go do the same thing in all the other dimensions they created. Therefore if that theory of creating alternate dimension timelines is correct, all time lines would require that lord Splynn, or some other really powerful shifter, has done this and is now supreme ruler of the megaverse. This is not the case, so this theory just doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

Unfortunately some people do have problems distinguishing what is actually a valid scientific theory and what's merely a pretty mathematical construct based on pure speculation. They will insist that the speculation is scientific reality because 'well it's mathematically sound' while pretending that conflicting theories exist that while mathematically sound can't both be valid because they're mutually exclusive. So until we have the tools (and it may be inherently impossible to develop such tools) we can't claim that a multiverse exists in reality or that time travel could be done other than one-way by living through it. Which means one can't insist on using RL physics in such a situation in a game because we don't have RL physics about such a situation.

Nightmask wrote:In TMNT YES you can go back in time and kill your grandfather without it eliminating yourself, that's not my game that's the actual canon rules which you apparently can't comprehend for some reason. It's not my game, it's not some house rule, it's the rules for the TMNT universe setting as presented in the Transdimensional TMNT book based on the original comic universe.

I am interested in discussing transdimensional physics, but I wonder if we should create a new thread for that in the TMNT/ATB forum?

Could you explain what the 'kill your grandfather' possibility is based on in Transdimensional?

I found paradoxes actually not well touched upon at all. There's a spell and technology that can rip out abnormalities and restore the timeline, which I figure is provided as a GM tool to say "a time lord of someone from beyond the barrier comes and fixes your mess" whenever players cause paradoxes.

If this isn't done, what exactly happens and how quickly it does isn't explicitly defined. The notes on pg96 (Kickback) has 2 final steps of Extermination/Recreation which actually imply that yeah, if you killed your grandfather, you'd be gone. So you might owe PhellaOne and apology there. It's a confusing issue though so I don't think there's any shame in understanding things. As awesome as TTMNT is, there are still holes regarding causality paradoxes.

What it doesn't deal with though, is who killed your grandfather, since you don't exist to do it anymore.

Reading TMNT 16 similarly messes with your head. If there was only an normal girl and not a mutant genius, who travelled in a time machine to convince the turtles to frighten her father to prevent him from mutating her?

The "changes tend to show up as they are formed in the past, moving at the same rate as the present" statement isn't that hard to grasp. It's basically what occurs in Back to the Future... sorta. The siblings didn't all disappear from the picture at once. I think it has something to do with how adjacent coils are touching each other.

The example times from pg 35 (Doc Hamerstandt and Eddie) of 1988 and 1963 for example. I think if you travelled back and took a year to find and kill an ancestor in 1989, it would only be at that point (or some undetermined amount of time later based on the vage 'wave' descriptions) their ancestors would cease to exist. As opposed to them ceasing to exist when you land in '88 due to being destined to kill the ancestor even before finding them.

13eowulf wrote:And what about page 59 in the Revised Conversion Book One? Where it is mentioned several times about BTS being considered Rifts Earth 100 years before the eruption of the Ley Lines...

In my (unrevised) copy it's on page 37, and says "BTS can and probably should be considered Rifts Earth a hundred or so years before the eruptions of the ley lines" and that Kevin tends to view it that way.

It's not set in stone though, Kev does say 'if that is the case' and 'the alternative is that the Earth of BTS is a similar but alternate dimension'. So basically he left it up to GMs to choose.

One thing that I think is clear is that, regardless of where/when the Victor Lazlo in Rifts Africa is from, there was a Victor Lazlo in Rifts past, since Erin Tarn new all about him and Lazlo was named after him.

The Lazlo of Rifts Earth's past, if he is not the one in Africa, must be incredibly similar, because Lo Fung appears to consider them one in the same, and they were good friends. Lo Fung (like the Dreamer and Rama Set) was around before the COTR and survived the cataclysm.

One very easy explanation is simply that there are multiple versions of BtS which are simply at different periods in their history. That way, people can rift over to modern-day BTS and do stuff there without affecting the past of Rifts Earth. This is completely in line with Transdimensional TMNT's explanations of what dimensional differences can create. This could also allow people to treat Chaos Earth and Rifts Earth as different dimensions, or TMNT and AtB as different dimensions.

Heck, Lazlo hangs out in N&SS too since his writings appeari n Mystic China. So people could make MC+BtS the same world, or they could make it separate dimensions and just allow for multiple lazlos across multiple dimensions.

Considering the implications of the 'Alter Id' spell in Temporal Magic, this is the easiest explanation. There's no right answer, just many dimensions and many times.

keir451 wrote:there's an even simpler explanation; Kevin doesn't reread his own work and regularly forgets that he wrote something one way and then writes something completely different BECAUSE he forgot and then doesn't want to go back and re-write what shouldn't have been written.

That would explain the Orc Juicer problem.

Sorry to derail from the other conversation, but..

What reason would there be for BTS to not be the past of Rifts? I don't mean what page number, ect, but why would you WANT BTS to not be RIFTS earth's past? What advantage is there for it to be that way? I'm confused as to what is gained by this seperation.

-EDIT-

Just thinking about it, there are at least two characters from BTS/the BTS world that currently exist in RIFTS, and both have actually met someone from the past/BTS in the world of RIFTS, as well as Victor Lazlo clearly existing in both settings, both with places named after him and his books being known (and quoted) in the world of RIFTS. I suppose the BTS world doesn't have to be the past of RIFTS, but the past world of RIFTS has to have had a Victor Lazlo nearly identical to the one from BTS, who also needs to have formed a society and written a book about the supernatural which he actively battled, so if it is not the EXACT same reality shared between the two, the RIFTS past-reality needs to be functionally identical to the seperate BTS reality.

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