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Another forum member had asked what a good strong (but not to strong) evil character was, which had me taking a look through the Conversion Book 1 (Revised) at the options and I saw the Lizard Mage. Now to be honest, I have seen this creature/race flipping through the book, but taking a detailed look at them this time made me realize just how much of a bad @$$ they are.

As I am trying to prepare for running a possible game, I figured that a Lizard Mage would make a really cool main boss. Strong enough to go toe to toe with an moderately sized group (4-6 people). But creating a Lizard Mage has presented me with a number of problems as the character creation is a bit off from that of normal creatures/characters.

1) They have a number of natural abilities that improve with level. The problem that presents itself is that the Lizard Mage is created in Rifts with two classes, the main one being 2d4 + 6 levels and the secondary one being 1d4 + 4 levels. Do these abilities level according to the primary class, the secondary class, or both? (I am thinking only the primary, but I am wanting confirmation on this.)

2) The Lizard Mage is stated as having 5 attacks per melee. Can they gain a Hand to Hand skill through their class(es)? If so, do the attacks per melee over ride the 5 attacks per melee stated? And if they took the boxing skill, would they gain the additional attack if they DON'T over ride the 5 attacks per melee?

2b) Do they get the other Hand to Hand bonuses even if the Hand to Hand attacks do not over ride?

3) Are they capable of gaining more levels (presumably in the primary class only)?

3b) If they can gain more levels, how much more MDC and PPE do they gain per level?

Are you trying to use a Lizard Mage as a player-character?

No, as an NPC, however I am trying my best to make it as a player character.

dragonfett wrote:1) They have a number of natural abilities that improve with level. The problem that presents itself is that the Lizard Mage is created in Rifts with two classes, the main one being 2d4 + 6 levels and the secondary one being 1d4 + 4 levels. Do these abilities level according to the primary class, the secondary class, or both? (I am thinking only the primary, but I am wanting confirmation on this.)

Abilities from each class would advance according to that class. For Hit Points/M.D.C. and racial abilities, I would use the higher-level class.

2) The Lizard Mage is stated as having 5 attacks per melee. Can they gain a Hand to Hand skill through their class(es)? If so, do the attacks per melee over ride the 5 attacks per melee stated? And if they took the boxing skill, would they gain the additional attack if they DON'T over ride the 5 attacks per melee?

2b) Do they get the other Hand to Hand bonuses even if the Hand to Hand attacks do not over ride?

Neither CB1 (I only have the original edition) nor Monsters & Animals mention any increase in APM for level advancement or hand to hand combat skills, so it could be inferred that this number is supposed to be constant. However, the bonuses section says that the racial bonuses are in addition to attribute and skill bonuses, which would logically include hand to hand combat skills. Basically, it's a matter of how challenging you want the character to be. More attacks per melee means more spells per melee as well.

3) Are they capable of gaining more levels (presumably in the primary class only)?

3b) If they can gain more levels, how much more MDC and PPE do they gain per level?

They have no experience chart, but then, they aren't intended as PCs, either. Since their levels are arbitrarily and randomly determined, it's entirely up to you whether the character should have additional levels in either or both of its classes. If you intend to use this character as a recurring villain, then it might make sense to increase the character's levels commensurately with those of the player character party.

CB1 doesn't mention any increases in M.D.C. and P.P.E. with level, but Monsters & Animals says they gain 2D6 H.P. per level (which would convert to at least 2D6 M.D.C. per level, possibly higher) and gain P.P.E. according to their classes. In both books, I.S.P. increases with level as well.

dragonfett wrote:Another forum member had asked what a good strong (but not to strong) evil character was, which had me taking a look through the Conversion Book 1 (Revised) at the options and I saw the Lizard Mage. Now to be honest, I have seen this creature/race flipping through the book, but taking a detailed look at them this time made me realize just how much of a bad @$$ they are.

As I am trying to prepare for running a possible game, I figured that a Lizard Mage would make a really cool main boss. Strong enough to go toe to toe with an moderately sized group (4-6 people). But creating a Lizard Mage has presented me with a number of problems as the character creation is a bit off from that of normal creatures/characters.

1) They have a number of natural abilities that improve with level. The problem that presents itself is that the Lizard Mage is created in Rifts with two classes, the main one being 2d4 + 6 levels and the secondary one being 1d4 + 4 levels. Do these abilities level according to the primary class, the secondary class, or both? (I am thinking only the primary, but I am wanting confirmation on this.)

2) The Lizard Mage is stated as having 5 attacks per melee. Can they gain a Hand to Hand skill through their class(es)? If so, do the attacks per melee over ride the 5 attacks per melee stated? And if they took the boxing skill, would they gain the additional attack if they DON'T over ride the 5 attacks per melee?

2b) Do they get the other Hand to Hand bonuses even if the Hand to Hand attacks do not over ride?

3) Are they capable of gaining more levels (presumably in the primary class only)?

3b) If they can gain more levels, how much more MDC and PPE do they gain per level?

1: Lizard mage's abilities should go by their highest level as is normal for Rifts multi-classing. This may change if you've tinkered with multi-classing rules, but if you had, you wouldn't be asking this

2: By common English, Boxing would always give them an additional attack, regardless how you see how Hand to Hand works. As written, I do feel they gain the additional 2 attacks for having a Hand to Hand (or rather, how many ever their Hand to Hand skill is offering). Humans have 2 Actions for being alive. Lizard Mages have 5 attacks for being alive.

2B: Yes.

3: Yes, this goes back to if you've tinkered with multi-classing rules, but they should be able to gain levels in their primary class.

I will warn you, Lizard Mages can be absurdly powerful as villains, their dual class nature and high amount of actions can offer them a wide array of fighting styles that can be hard to beat if the GM chooses to use them to their full power (high end AoE spells while maintaining Illusionary Terrain, Superior Invisibility + Barrage, etc). This combined with their High PPE value, and the probability they have good gear. After my group discovered the race as the use in NPC power, one party member always asked to be able to play one as a joke at the start of a new game (knowing I'd say no, since it's worse than being a dragon), and the one time I did use it as a villain, at the big reveal, the party fled before combat started. Now of course if the GM is playing down the Lizard Mage's powers, choosing less than maxium spell selection / combination, they can hover in the realm of fight-ability for a lot of groups, just realize they can be among the most busted rule NPC's in the game.

Cinos wrote:

dragonfett wrote:Another forum member had asked what a good strong (but not to strong) evil character was, which had me taking a look through the Conversion Book 1 (Revised) at the options and I saw the Lizard Mage. Now to be honest, I have seen this creature/race flipping through the book, but taking a detailed look at them this time made me realize just how much of a bad @$$ they are.

As I am trying to prepare for running a possible game, I figured that a Lizard Mage would make a really cool main boss. Strong enough to go toe to toe with an moderately sized group (4-6 people). But creating a Lizard Mage has presented me with a number of problems as the character creation is a bit off from that of normal creatures/characters.

1) They have a number of natural abilities that improve with level. The problem that presents itself is that the Lizard Mage is created in Rifts with two classes, the main one being 2d4 + 6 levels and the secondary one being 1d4 + 4 levels. Do these abilities level according to the primary class, the secondary class, or both? (I am thinking only the primary, but I am wanting confirmation on this.)

2) The Lizard Mage is stated as having 5 attacks per melee. Can they gain a Hand to Hand skill through their class(es)? If so, do the attacks per melee over ride the 5 attacks per melee stated? And if they took the boxing skill, would they gain the additional attack if they DON'T over ride the 5 attacks per melee?

2b) Do they get the other Hand to Hand bonuses even if the Hand to Hand attacks do not over ride?

3) Are they capable of gaining more levels (presumably in the primary class only)?

3b) If they can gain more levels, how much more MDC and PPE do they gain per level?

1: Lizard mage's abilities should go by their highest level as is normal for Rifts multi-classing. This may change if you've tinkered with multi-classing rules, but if you had, you wouldn't be asking this

2: By common English, Boxing would always give them an additional attack, regardless how you see how Hand to Hand works. As written, I do feel they gain the additional 2 attacks for having a Hand to Hand (or rather, how many ever their Hand to Hand skill is offering). Humans have 2 Actions for being alive. Lizard Mages have 5 attacks for being alive.

2B: Yes.

3: Yes, this goes back to if you've tinkered with multi-classing rules, but they should be able to gain levels in their primary class.

I will warn you, Lizard Mages can be absurdly powerful as villains, their dual class nature and high amount of actions can offer them a wide array of fighting styles that can be hard to beat if the GM chooses to use them to their full power (high end AoE spells while maintaining Illusionary Terrain, Superior Invisibility + Barrage, etc). This combined with their High PPE value, and the probability they have good gear. After my group discovered the race as the use in NPC power, one party member always asked to be able to play one as a joke at the start of a new game (knowing I'd say no, since it's worse than being a dragon), and the one time I did use it as a villain, at the big reveal, the party fled before combat started. Now of course if the GM is playing down the Lizard Mage's powers, choosing less than maxium spell selection / combination, they can hover in the realm of fight-ability for a lot of groups, just realize they can be among the most busted rule NPC's in the game.

So are you saying that Lizard Mages get three more attacks per melee than humans if they gain a Hand to Hand skill?

dragonfett wrote:So are you saying that Lizard Mages get three more attacks per melee than humans if they gain a Hand to Hand skill?

That is what I'm saying.

id say the gains from level would be both levels combined as they all take progressively higher amounts of XP to gain, things like casting level though id stick with highest level of the two,
if i had to give an xp chart for them it would be the dragon chart.
im betting it a miniscule portion that actualy would take boxing, but id give them the extra attack, but not the stats as they are already supernatrual
I dont see anything wrong with them allowed as a player char if say another PC is a godling or the like Id have them start at lv1 and lv1 one for both types of mage they are.
dont forget they probaly have a stupid huge cache of magical gear to work with too.

As a GM, you don't have to roll any dice, just pick what you want. Alter the NPC as you see fit. If you want them to be more physical oriented, then give them more attacks. I have used one of these as an NPC in a game before, precisely because they didn't look as powerfull as they actually were. When you've got to deal with a player with a 1000MDC character, NPCs like this can put them in their place. Spells and trickery are their game, remember that Lizardman Mages are smart as hell. They've got backup plans to their backup plans. I believe that's where their value lies.

Cinos wrote:

dragonfett wrote:So are you saying that Lizard Mages get three more attacks per melee than humans if they gain a Hand to Hand skill?

That is what I'm saying.

I hadn't considered it before, but that does make sense. Claws, bite, tail, and fast reaction/thinking time can all add to APM.

Armorlord wrote:

Cinos wrote:

dragonfett wrote:So are you saying that Lizard Mages get three more attacks per melee than humans if they gain a Hand to Hand skill?

That is what I'm saying.

I hadn't considered it before, but that does make sense. Claws, bite, tail, and fast reaction/thinking time can all add to APM.

thats similar to how i have always done it as well.
except with my table rules I have always done it as:
Unless other wise stated all characters start with 2 actions per melee plus those gained from hand to hand and other combat skills.
so in my games the Lizard Mage would start with 5 and then get more from his hand to hand and other combat skills,
yes this makes LMs very dangerous combatants... but then they are recommended as NPCs only for a reason...