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I have seen three spell caster types that can learn more than just invocations as a Mage. The Forsaken Mage in mysteries of magic, the vanguard savant, and the spell thief from Phase World.

Which seems to be the "better" Mage in this aspect?

Any invocation based mage can learn invocations from any school of magic if they find a teacher.
The only realm of magic unavailable to an invocation-based caster is Elementalism.
With that in mind, I'd recommend a Shifter linked to an Elemental or a Zodiac Mage from Rifter 50 as they can both use invocations and elemental magic. There are probably a bunch of RCCs that can achieve the same effect also.

Giant2005 wrote:Any invocation based mage can learn invocations from any school of magic if they find a teacher.
The only realm of magic unavailable to an invocation-based caster is Elementalism.
With that in mind, I'd recommend a Shifter linked to an Elemental or a Zodiac Mage from Rifter 50 as they can both use invocations and elemental magic. There are probably a bunch of RCCs that can achieve the same effect also.

Disagrees. Otherwise All common magic spell casters ([PF] wizards, [R] LLW, [NB] sorcerers) would have specialty magic listed as available to them. Which is not the case.

Specialty magics are not available to a Common magic user unless they change to the associated specialty mage. Unless they are specifically exempted in the class text. The OP listed the only classes I can think of that can learn specialty magic.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:Any invocation based mage can learn invocations from any school of magic if they find a teacher.
The only realm of magic unavailable to an invocation-based caster is Elementalism.
With that in mind, I'd recommend a Shifter linked to an Elemental or a Zodiac Mage from Rifter 50 as they can both use invocations and elemental magic. There are probably a bunch of RCCs that can achieve the same effect also.

Disagrees. Otherwise All common magic spell casters ([PF] wizards, [R] LLW, [NB] sorcerers) would have specialty magic listed as available to them. Which is not the case.

Specialty magics are not available to a Common magic user unless they change to the associated specialty mage. Unless they are specifically exempted in the class text. The OP listed the only classes I can think of that can learn specialty magic.

one could argue that the Mystic could learn spells from "specialty schools" due to how they "learn" spells
Also considering that its possible for any mage to learn the shadow and lightning spells from LoB would indicate that you are off center on your advice.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:Any invocation based mage can learn invocations from any school of magic if they find a teacher.
The only realm of magic unavailable to an invocation-based caster is Elementalism.
With that in mind, I'd recommend a Shifter linked to an Elemental or a Zodiac Mage from Rifter 50 as they can both use invocations and elemental magic. There are probably a bunch of RCCs that can achieve the same effect also.

Disagrees. Otherwise All common magic spell casters ([PF] wizards, [R] LLW, [NB] sorcerers) would have specialty magic listed as available to them. Which is not the case.

Specialty magics are not available to a Common magic user unless they change to the associated specialty mage. Unless they are specifically exempted in the class text. The OP listed the only classes I can think of that can learn specialty magic.

One could argue that the Mystic could learn spells from "specialty schools" due to how they "learn" spells
Also considering that its possible for any mage to learn the shadow and lightning spells from LoB would indicate that you are off center on your advice.

This should of been "mages". Mages being spell casters that had to learn how to cast/make magic.
With Mystics and Warlocks being examples of intuitive spell-casters. Which do not really learn their spell.... just suddenly know them. (note: simplified the process for sake of of the discussion.)

Holds the same view as DM about mystics and them not being limited to the Common magic spells. However, they would have to 'face the results of some how knowing elemental spells.

Note the only way for Common magic mages to learn said shadow and lighting spells is to learn the conversions to common magic spells in the spell books that are mentioned in the PF:LoB book. However, since they are 'conversions' they are no longer specialty magic.

Yes, there can be a specialty magic spell that a common magic mage can not learn, and a common magic spell of the same name and the same effects that a common magic mage can learn. However, that conversion from the specialty magic original spell is +5 level higher then the original, with +20% per level in PPE cost.

Here is a list of the realms of magic that are available to invocationalists without changing OCCs, provided they can find the means of learning the spells:

Blue Flame Magic
Korallyte Shaping
Nazcan Line Magic
Necromancy
Bone Magic
Temporal Magic
Space Magic
Demon Magic
Shadow Magic
Mirror Magic


Personally I disagree that Korallyte Shaping and Nazcan Line Magic should be available and I disagree that Ocean Magic isn't. If I made the rules, I'd do the ol' switch-a-roo and remedy that situation.

Giant2005 wrote:Here is a list of the realms of magic that are available to invocationalists without changing OCCs, provided they can find the means of learning the spells:

Blue Flame Magic
Korallyte Shaping
Nazcan Line Magic (these spells are not invocations)
Necromancy (PPE penalty to cast if not a necro)
Bone Magic (Nerco variant magic)
Temporal Magic (outside of rifts and the 3G these are available (@ least for D-Pocket & D-Envelope), with in rifts and the 3G, good luck )
Space Magic
Demon Magic (specialty magic, not common magic)
Shadow Magic (specialty magic, not common magic)
Mirror Magic (specialty magic, not common magic)


Personally I disagree that Korallyte Shaping and Nazcan Line Magic should be available and I disagree that Ocean Magic isn't. If I made the rules, I'd do the ol' switch-a-roo and remedy that situation.

Blue highlighted types of magic are learnable by common magic users such as the wizard, and the LLW (what the above poster calles "invocationalists".) The others are not. There is no specific supporting text to support the claims of the above poster, far as I know, except for the ones noted.

Yes, that last line was an invitation for anyone who does know text that specifically allows the above magic types to post that with book/page/paragraph locations.

I'm not going to type out the summaries of each of those magic types, reading the passages from each of the relevant books for every subset of magic was work enough.
The relevant info is at the beginning of each of the spell lists in the Book of Magic for Blue Flame Magic, Korallyte Shaping, Nazcan Line Magic, Necromancy, Bone Magic and Temporal Magic.
Space Magic in DB 13,
Demon Magic in DB 12,
Shadow Magic in Library of Belethad
and Mirror Magic in Through the Glass Darkly.

I love how the conversation evolved into something new and different.

Original Question: Which of the three multi-spell mages seems to be a better mage? The Spell Thief of PW, the Forsaken Mage from Mysteries of Magic, or the Vangard Savant?

Now, to the evolved situation: When it comes to many of the specialty magics, many are cast at 2X the PPE, making it difficult for many normal incantationists to use. This includes Necromancy, Bone magic, and Temporal Magic. Space magic can be penalized by not being from the 3 galaxies or the environment of space. As for the magic from Through the Glass Darkly, I've always found mirror magic to be lacking.

And for the magic found in Library of Blethrad, they are considered to be incantations now, due to the rarity of the magic. Until someone creates or finds more magic of a particular brand (Fulmination, Shadow, etc), they should be thought of as incantations that have to be learned from someone who knows the spells or you happen to sneak into the magic area of the library and learn the incantation yourself.

Well, that's how I see it anyways.

snip!

MethosDarkblade wrote:Now, to the evolved situation: When it comes to many of the specialty magics, many are cast at 2X the PPE, making it difficult for many normal incantationists to use. This includes Necromancy, Bone magic, and Temporal Magic.

Okay not to be a pain, but why are you assuming that Temporal Magic has an increased cost to other magic O.C.C.'s?? There is no R:UE or BoM update that shows this that I am aware of.

Now, should there be a casting penalty in additional P.P.E. points to cast for Temporal Magic for non-temporal classes, or a general rule that there is a P.P.E. penalty for all specialty magic cast by general class Invocation mages? Maybe, but that is a whole new thread, and it's probably been talked about before anyway.

Grand Paladin wrote:snip!

MethosDarkblade wrote:Now, to the evolved situation: When it comes to many of the specialty magics, many are cast at 2X the PPE, making it difficult for many normal incantationists to use. This includes Necromancy, Bone magic, and Temporal Magic.

Okay not to be a pain, but why are you assuming that Temporal Magic has an increased cost to other magic O.C.C.'s?? There is no R:UE or BoM update that shows this that I am aware of.

Now, should there be a casting penalty in additional P.P.E. points to cast for Temporal Magic for non-temporal classes, or a general rule that there is a P.P.E. penalty for all specialty magic cast by general class Invocation mages? Maybe, but that is a whole new thread, and it's probably been talked about before anyway.

ad nasuem...
with nothing accomplished

MethosDarkblade wrote:Original Question: Which of the three multi-spell mages seems to be a better mage? The Spell Thief of PW, the Forsaken Mage from Mysteries of Magic, or the Vangard Savant?

My bad, I thought you were asking about casters of multiple realms in general, not just those three specifically.
Of that list I'd probably go with the Spell Thief - they have a unique and interesting mechanic.

I'ld go the Vanguard Savant simply for the spell strength.

From RUE page 134 there is a list of 'Non-ivocation magic' types. Which are

Biomancy
Cloud Magic
Elemental magic (all four)
Living Fire
Natural Magic
Necromancy
Ocean Magic
Spoiling Magic
Temporal Magic