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Hendrik wrote:Hi,

I have a little rules question. I have a Nightbane PC in my group who has 4 arms, 2 of them weapon hands (Wolverine like claws) and is versed in the use of 2 short swords. He also has the W.P. Paired Weapons, which I allow for Nightbane as well.

How would you handle that?

Cheers
Hendrik

Hendrik wrote:As another case: let us assume the Nightbane had Paired Weapons with daggers, 4 arms and now 4 daggers. How would you handle that?

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Hendrik wrote:As another case: let us assume the Nightbane had Paired Weapons with daggers, 4 arms and now 4 daggers. How would you handle that?

Personally I would require paired WP for each pair of arms...
But I think that just one paired is all that is required by the rules...

Johnathan wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Hendrik wrote:As another case: let us assume the Nightbane had Paired Weapons with daggers, 4 arms and now 4 daggers. How would you handle that?

Personally I would require paired WP for each pair of arms...
But I think that just one paired is all that is required by the rules...

I would agree with Damian Magecraft on this one. That, logically, it would require the user to have paired weapons taken twice (One for each pair of arms) but, according to the rules, there is no such requirement.

A few side thoughts on this topic. A Nightbane with 4 arms would probably need some training in the use of their additional arms. Here's the problem with that, even if a Bane was trained in paired weapons in their facade form, that would be with just his two primary hands, not their secondary pair that appears in their morphus form.
- That means the Bane would have to train in their Morphus form to accomodate their new appendages.
- This presents it's own unique problem since, if the Bane maintains his morphus for too long... he/she/it risks detection from other critters.

Rahu-Men, a race of four-armed giants NOT native to the Nightbane-verse, do NOT have to take paired weapons for each set of arms... but... they were BORN having multiple arms, so it would make sense for them to NOT have to train twice as hard in using their "additional appendages".

Just my thoughts...

Hendrik wrote:Thank you, Damian, Jonathan and Blindscout.
Bitte Sehr
Natural weapons:

Great argument, to which I agree, is that natural weapons cannot be paired weapons. Solves one of my problems.

Now, to the non-natural weapons:

The issue with the Rahu-Man argument is that the rules handle Rahu-man 4 arm attacks as natural/special to the creature and not subject to the WP Paired Weapons rule (IIRC), i.e. basically treating Rahu-men as "animals" with "natural attacks", but subject Nightbane as all characters to the normal rules. In so far I think the Rahu-Man is an excellent as well as a bad example.

It is an excellent example because it illustrates what a person born with 4 arms can achieve. I agree with the line of argument that a Nightbane (whatever they are) was raised as a Man, a creature with "only" two arms/hands, not four. Therefore, I guess coordination will be a witch and a Nightbane should be able to use the extra arms "normally" but not like a trained 4 arm fighter. At least not from the beginning.

You also made a superb argument by asking why then can a Nightbane use e.g. a scoprion tail adroitly, should he then not also be able to use the arms for full effect? I think the logical answer could be: yes, he should be able to do that. The consequence then would have to be that he either needs 1 W.P. Paired Weapons or two, one for each set of arms makes a lot of sense to me. That would also cover the training aspect raised above as the extra WP PW would represent that. Maybe one should say, following that logic, that a Nightbane cannot gain the second WP PW (for the second set of arms) before some time has passed (as a Nightbane), i.e. not before he can "buy" the second WP PW with a skill slot gained at a higher level.

I think this is the better compromise. It is not a hard, fast yes or no. It allows for future growth, which is always good imo, and it requires the player to decide whether or not those extra attacks are worth the sacrifice of another skill slot

All that said, I think it is extremely overpowering to allow 4 weapons. That would essentially turn the Nightbane into a little Kali. Nice, but mayhap a tad ueberpowered (which I know is very, very relative with nightbanes). I am still of a mind to say: "Nightbane with more than one set of arms can only use one WP Paired Weapons at a time and such covers only the use of 2 weapons at once as per the rules. A Nightbane with more than two arms/hands cannot use more than 2 melee weapons at a time, unless expressly specified so in the nightbane forms etc. section" or something to that effect.

Difficult question that. I think it boils down basically to "do not allow it because it overpowers the WP Paired Weapons" (bold answer two) or "logic says it should be possible, let's find a rule" (bold answer 1). I think what you came up with is great.

What about guns?

The same nightbane could, of course, shoot 4 pistols at a time, right? Would you handle that as a wild shot (-6) as shooting two pistols at a time would be handled or would you give an even worse modifier, -10 for example?

I've tried shooting two guns at once IRL. I have trained myself to shoot with my off-hand with nearly the same level of proficiency I have with my main hand. I found it extremely difficult to coordinate actually hit my target. The big issue that I found with two gun firing is that I could only focus on one sight picture at a time. I was much better off just shooting each pistol one at a time. Maybe if I had laser sights it would be easier. I'll see what I can do to try that out and let you know how it goes .

Unless they have, for some reason, the sharpshooting specialties from RIFTS, I would use the -6 for two guns at once and -10 for all four. Ballistic weapons are a completely different ballgame from melee weapons.

Kind regards
Hendrik

Hendrik wrote:As another case: let us assume the Nightbane had Paired Weapons with daggers, 4 arms and now 4 daggers. How would you handle that?

Shark_Force wrote:i would allow the WP paired gained from their morphus form HtH:Martial Arts at level 7 to count for all limbs, because it's supposed to be an instinctive fighting ability and it makes little sense for a four-armed person to have the instinctive ability to only use two arms while the other pair just kinda sit there useless.

otherwise, i don't think i'd allow it. it's not like you can just go to a course on how to use a sword in each of your four hands at the local SCA or anything like that, after all. where exactly does one go to learn the skill, when frankly even amongst nightbane only a tiny fraction would have the ability to even *try* to develop a fighting technique based around it.

(for rahu-men, it makes sense... everyone has 4 arms, and they'd all look at you funny if you asked for training on how to use only 2 of your arms for fighting).

Blindscout wrote:

Hendrik wrote:Thank you, Damian, Jonathan and Blindscout.
Bitte Sehr

What about guns?

The same nightbane could, of course, shoot 4 pistols at a time, right? Would you handle that as a wild shot (-6) as shooting two pistols at a time would be handled or would you give an even worse modifier, -10 for example?

I've tried shooting two guns at once IRL. I have trained myself to shoot with my off-hand with nearly the same level of proficiency I have with my main hand. I found it extremely difficult to coordinate actually hit my target. The big issue that I found with two gun firing is that I could only focus on one sight picture at a time. I was much better off just shooting each pistol one at a time. Maybe if I had laser sights it would be easier. I'll see what I can do to try that out and let you know how it goes .

Unless they have, for some reason, the sharpshooting specialties from RIFTS, I would use the -6 for two guns at once and -10 for all four. Ballistic weapons are a completely different ballgame from melee weapons.

Hope this helps!

"...
With WP Paired you can use two of the four arms paired. The other two arms are not covered by the WP-PW, but do not have to "sit around" . In addition to the WP-PW attack (cost 1 attack action), the 4-armed nightbane can elect to spend another attack action and attack once with the other arms, meaning 1 punch or 1 weapon attack. Alternatively, he can spend 2 additional attack actions (in addition to the WP PW attack cost of 1) and make a power punch with his non-paired second set of arms (again, 1 punch or 1 weapon blow).

At the GM's discretion, i.e. when circumstances allow, the 4-armed nightbane can learn WP PW for his second set of arms with a skill gained from a later level up. He will automatically gain the "paired weapons" ability in any case at level 7 (HtH Martial Arts, level 7 ability is "paired weapons"). The rationale behind this is that a nightbane can instinctively use his new set of arms, but the WP PW he learnt BEFORE his becoming does not cover 4 arm used. Paired Weapons is a specilized skill that requires training and coordination beyond a "simple" additional attack. In short, the nightbane needs some time with all his arms and train to learn to use them effectively not only as an additional attack but fully "paired". ..."

Damian Magecraft wrote:while the Rahu-man is a good example for this question...
The Jeridu (6 arms) is a better example their write up specifically mentions that they get WP paired as a Racial ability

Hendrik wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:while the Rahu-man is a good example for this question...
The Jeridu (6 arms) is a better example their write up specifically mentions that they get WP paired as a Racial ability

Thanks, Damian. I think my above ruling would cover that. I think the Jeridu entry (which I had to time to look up, alas) suggests that you need to learn it. Incidentally, it would also suggest that a Rahu-Man who does not have paired weapons would only be able to use one weapon in combat unless he learns "paried weapons". Hmmm, I would allow him to strikes, one for each set of arms, for TWO ATTACK ACTIONS until he masters "paired weapon" combat.

Shawn Merrow wrote:The Jeridu entry (Land of the Damned One: page 70) says they automatically have the skill of Paired Weapons and can use it for all six of their arms. It allows them to control three sets of paired weapons.

Shark_Force wrote:4 arms is still going to remain quite useful, even without getting to use paired weapons on all 4 at the same time. you just have to consider uses. you can, for example, carry a gun in the spare hands. you could even reload it, potentially, while holding two melee weapons. you can also use it (for example) to entangle a target while leaving your other hands free. entangle feels like an entirely underused ability to me, but it can really be a powerful ability to simply deny an opponent the ability to use all their limbs; a hunter, for example, is a lot less scary if it's big nasty two-handed weapon is entangled... while your hands are still perfectly free to grab it. likewise, you can entangle the wings so that it cannot fly away. you can open doors and manipulate other objects while holding your weapons, including things like climbing ladders or ropes. just gotta think to use the extra arms. just because you can't use them for stabbing stuff more often doesn't mean they're useless.

Hendrik wrote:Regarding the bionics book or wherever ... do you have a reference, my friend? I will dig, too, of course, but that would help.

Hendrik wrote:Thank you, Mark.

Now, go forth and write more good stuff!

O, and say, what did you think of my idea to handle the "paired shot" via a trickshot WP (no malus but no strike boni either)?