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First, let me apologize if the answer is already out there and I've just not been able to find it yet.

Brute Strength. Listed as having a max of 50 and no real special abilities

Beastly Strength. Listed as being the same as Extraordinary PS, but without the increase to 20+2d6

Crushing Strength. Listed the same as being Superhuman PS, but without adding 30+2d6

First thing I noticed is the huge discrepancy between these. For the cost of 5 bio-e I can go from an normal character (with enhanced lifting/carrying only) to a character that in effect inflicts MDC damage (in a rifts setting).

Secondly, Superhuman PS is skipped completely. What's the deal? 5 Bio-E = Tough, 10 Bio-E = Badass, 25 Bio-E = Chuck Norris-esque destroyer capabilities. This just doesn't seem right to me. My personal opinion is that if I'm going to spend Bio-E on an enhanced PS level as opposed to Size Levels (which grant attribute bonuses) then I should get the applicable bonuses for the powers that they equate to.

How do you all deal with this? Do you play it as written or do you tweak it so that the lower level powers are = to their HU power counterparts? Do you slip Supernatural PS in with Beastly PS, while dropping Extraordinary PS to the Brute PS category. Or do you do both of them together.

Your feedback is appreciated.

--Nate

The Oh So Amazing Nate wrote: First, let me apologize if the answer is already out there and I've just not been able to find it yet.

Brute Strength. Listed as having a max of 50 and no real special abilities

Beastly Strength. Listed as being the same as Extraordinary PS, but without the increase to 20+2d6

Crushing Strength. Listed the same as being Superhuman PS, but without adding 30+2d6

Yes. This was done on purpose, because while the 'lift and carry' multipliers are the same, the strength being represented isn't an actual 'super power'. It's just showing that some animals, many animals are put together differently and are many times stronger than us weak humans. So while not the 'super power' version. It retains the lift and carry multipliers.

The Oh So Amazing Nate wrote:

First thing I noticed is the huge discrepancy between these. For the cost of 5 bio-e I can go from an normal character (with enhanced lifting/carrying only) to a character that in effect inflicts MDC damage (in a rifts setting).

That's always been the case in Palladium. In 'Character creation' it's not 'meant' to be a cost/benifit annalisis. It's to allow you to build different 'types' of heroes. Not every super hero has the strength of Thor. Some have god level strength, Thor, Superman, The Hulk. Some have 'REALLY strong super hero strength'. Iron man, Spider man, ect... And some are just extreamly peak human strength, Captain A, Hawkeye, ect. Now, not all are equal but they're not meant to be. In Palladium character creation they give you the 'ability' to create different levels on purpose. But not "If I save 5 bioe here I can crank up and get maximum benifit there!!" You CAN (( and many DO)) Work it like that. But with Palladium and especially ATB you're kinda supposed to either roll random, or get a mental image of what you want and build towards that.

The Oh So Amazing Nate wrote:

Secondly, Superhuman PS is skipped completely. What's the deal? 5 Bio-E = Tough, 10 Bio-E = Badass, 25 Bio-E = Chuck Norris-esque destroyer capabilities. This just doesn't seem right to me. My personal opinion is that if I'm going to spend Bio-E on an enhanced PS level as opposed to Size Levels (which grant attribute bonuses) then I should get the applicable bonuses for the powers that they equate to.

This is another 'After the bomb' thing. If played --as intended-- it's supposed to be a realitivly low to middle powered, highly deadly post Apocalypse sort of setting. Or a low to middle powered TMNT setting. People (animals) digging up out of the dark age brought on by the bombs and constant mutation planet wide. Reclaiming technology and struggeling against the planets wounds and mutations.

It's not that they forgot. They purposefully have it a little weaker, on purpose.

If you read some of the supplements. Turtles go Hollywood and such, they are "Crossable" with Heroes Unlimited, but they even will recommend as you go along, increasing sdc and troop numbers by roughly 25% to 50% to make them compatible with HU standard. TMNT/ATB is just not quite as supped up as some of the other games. (( it CAN BE, if you Mini/max, or Purpose Build, but by default it's a bit weaker))

The Oh So Amazing Nate wrote:
How do you all deal with this? Do you play it as written or do you tweak it so that the lower level powers are = to their HU power counterparts? Do you slip Supernatural PS in with Beastly PS, while dropping Extraordinary PS to the Brute PS category. Or do you do both of them together.

Your feedback is appreciated.

--Nate

I largely play it as written. They're not 'meant' to be Thor or the Hulk, so I play them as they're sort of built to be. "Mutant animals" with the strength of upjumped genetic mutants. A tiger is many times stronger than a human, but they don't flip over tanks with swipes of their paws.

As a side note, another little intricacy of the TMNT/ATB setting is, that to get all the 'cool' stuff, you often have to make 'smaller' heroes. TMNT size. 4 to 5 feet tall. You trade in size levels and such to get hands and biped and speech and then your claws and jumping and strength ect.

I give a flat +20 to +30 Bio-E across the board to let my players 'buy what they want to make their mutants cool". That is a house rule of mine, but with the TMNT/ATB being purposefully built to be about 25-50% weaker than even Heroes unlimited, I've never found it to be game breaking. Usually that 20 to 30 BioE points is enough to get people to "Cool mutants" with out "Giving them everything they could possibly want" They still have to prioritize, but you end up with roughly human sized mutants for the most part with claws and hands and maybe horns or a shell, with out having to give up things.

to use examples like the above, in ATB2 mutant animal improved strengths are intended to create characters more like Mongo from Blazing Saddles, or Fezzik from Princess Bride type characters at its upper end. professional weightlifter/wrestler types, not supermen.

glitterboy2098 wrote:to use examples like the above, in ATB2 mutant animal improved strengths are intended to create characters more like Mongo from Blazing Saddles, or Fezzik from Princess Bride type characters at its upper end. professional weightlifter/wrestler types, not supermen.

Well I think they're a bit better than that. I think they're meant to represent exactly what they are. "Animal strength" on a human frame. A chimp, which is usually half our size or less is like 5 times as strong. That's just how they're built and how their musculature is set up.

Those that buy the enhanced strengths in ATB is getting "Gorilla man," or "Tiger man" or "Elephant man" Sorts of strength.

Higher than human for sure, just not " Im gonna throw this bus into orbit" sort of strength. lol.

You don't get the full bonuses of the actual super-powers because they aren't the super-powers they're just equivalent. Just like the mega-hero gets the equivalent of supernatural PS but not the bonuses and other features just the raw strength and damage potential, not without actually explicitly having Supernatural PS as a super-power.

If you want the actual super-power then you have to get it with Bio-E, as listed under the mutant animal section of Heroes Unlimited which details the costs for purchasing various super-powers. Then your mutant wolverine for example can have all the bells and whistles of a Supernatural PS.

glitterboy2098 wrote:to use examples like the above, in ATB2 mutant animal improved strengths are intended to create characters more like Mongo from Blazing Saddles, or Fezzik from Princess Bride type characters at its upper end. professional weightlifter/wrestler types, not supermen.

2 of my favorite movies.

Nightmask wrote:You don't get the full bonuses of the actual super-powers because they aren't the super-powers they're just equivalent. Just like the mega-hero gets the equivalent of supernatural PS but not the bonuses and other features just the raw strength and damage potential, not without actually explicitly having Supernatural PS as a super-power.

If you want the actual super-power then you have to get it with Bio-E, as listed under the mutant animal section of Heroes Unlimited which details the costs for purchasing various super-powers. Then your mutant wolverine for example can have all the bells and whistles of a Supernatural PS.

This is the main point I was trying to make. Brute and Beastly Strength only get the enhanced lifting/carrying aspects of their respective powers. They don't get any of the damage bonuses that you'd think come along with having the musculature to lift/carry that much weight.

While the Crushing Strength Power gets the lift/carry bonuses AND a hefty damage increase as well.

To me that's skewed. If I have the musculature to lift/carry an obscene amount of weight then logic tells you that when I whop you upside the head it's going to do more damage than normal. The Brute and Beastly PS animal powers don't reflect that.

I guess that's the core of my OP. Why don't the Brute and Beastly powers get a damage bonus to reflect their enhanced/superhuman power levels like Crushing PS does? and Do you play them as written or do you add in a damage modifier to the first 2?

The Oh So Amazing Nate wrote:

Nightmask wrote:You don't get the full bonuses of the actual super-powers because they aren't the super-powers they're just equivalent. Just like the mega-hero gets the equivalent of supernatural PS but not the bonuses and other features just the raw strength and damage potential, not without actually explicitly having Supernatural PS as a super-power.

If you want the actual super-power then you have to get it with Bio-E, as listed under the mutant animal section of Heroes Unlimited which details the costs for purchasing various super-powers. Then your mutant wolverine for example can have all the bells and whistles of a Supernatural PS.

This is the main point I was trying to make. Brute and Beastly Strength only get the enhanced lifting/carrying aspects of their respective powers. They don't get any of the damage bonuses that you'd think come along with having the musculature to lift/carry that much weight.

While the Crushing Strength Power gets the lift/carry bonuses AND a hefty damage increase as well.

To me that's skewed. If I have the musculature to lift/carry an obscene amount of weight then logic tells you that when I whop you upside the head it's going to do more damage than normal. The Brute and Beastly PS animal powers don't reflect that.

I guess that's the core of my OP. Why don't the Brute and Beastly powers get a damage bonus to reflect their enhanced/superhuman power levels like Crushing PS does? and Do you play them as written or do you add in a damage modifier to the first 2?

The only level of strength that provides extra damage is Supernatural/Crushing, whether it's brute/beastly or extraordinary/Superhuman neither of those provide any damage increases beyond what you get for your PS bonus, which makes sense as they aren't supposed to. Only Supernatural strength is so above the normal that it and equivalent strength (i.e. crushing) use a completely different rating to determine how much damage it deals based on your PS score.

So no I don't go giving any extras, the mutant animal with the same basic strength as Extraordinary gets no more extras than someone with that level of strength gets. Namely they get the same lifting ability and same damage bonus from PS to physical strikes as the human with Extraordinary strength gets. If they're crushing strength then they get the damage that supernatural strength deals. If you want any extras you need the full-on powers (which given how costly they charge things for mutant animals might as well go ahead and get the full 'human' version).

I think that they could of simplize it by
Normal X10
Extraordinary X20
Superhuman X30
Supernatural X40
Then done. Palladium does a great job but some times the rules could be more simple.