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So if a Diabolist w Temporal Magicks place a Permanent Ward plus 4th Dimensional Transformation onto a fighter/battle-cruiser/super capital ship, does that provide the starship with the ability to shift into 4th Dimension?

Your thoughts please.

Thundercloud galaxies show the possibility of Elders using high-science technologies to mimic major super abilities from Heroes Unlimited.

I am just wondering if it is possible for Elders to use such high-level technologies to mimic spells of magic as well.

crystaleye1950 wrote:So if a Diabolist w Temporal Magicks place a Permanent Ward plus 4th Dimensional Transformation onto a fighter/battle-cruiser/super capital ship, does that provide the starship with the ability to shift into 4th Dimension?

Your thoughts please.

4 dimensional transformation has no valid target other than "self", so without modifying the spell heavily you could not cast it on the ship in the first place.

If you could somehow, then yes. It works in theory but one would need to modify the spell first.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:If you could somehow, then yes. It works in theory but one would need to modify the spell first.

Heh... good luck with the test run phase of that
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gd0nQUF00Sg

crystaleye1950 wrote:Thundercloud galaxies show the possibility of Elders using high-science technologies to mimic major super abilities from Heroes Unlimited.

I am just wondering if it is possible for Elders to use such high-level technologies to mimic spells of magic as well.

A question with a complicated answer. Arguably technology in basic phaseworld has a plasma rifle "mimiking" the plasma bolt spell. Arguably a teleportation device "mimiks" a teleport spell. These things are obviously possible with even lesser technology level.

That's because when you get down to it, most spells simply mimick or alter the physical world you can interact with anyway. Fire spells can make fire, but so can technology. a conjorer can create objects, but so could a replicator device.

These things will become increasingly easy to mimick spells as you reach elder-level technologies. in fact, at elder level technology, it will become possible to create effects that magic couldn't dream of.

No spell in the game deals the raw damage of a battleships main cannon, because no spellcaster has enough PPE to possibly power a blast that potent. Yet in theory if a Mystic Knight had access to trillions of PPE, their PPE channeling ability would give them the ability to create a bolt that would core a Dominator's planetoid ship in one shot, something no ship even built by other eldar races could do!

So as you can see, the biggest limiting problem on both ends is energy source. Mages can create all kinds of facining effects with realtivly little PPE, because magic can do some things so efficently. but no mage can match the energy output of an antimatter starship drive. So as technology reaches the Elder Race levels, they increasingly become able to do things on a scale that puts mages to shame. a conjurer can create swords and personal armor with nothing but himself. an elder race with a energy-matter converter could create whole starships from a sufficently large power source. But the requirements to set it up are far greater than the conjurer making his own weapons on the spot.



Now onto another thing: While most magics that simply effect the world around them in some way, other spells do get things weirder. Can Technology ever create a Wall of Not? Can you develop a device that not only summons creatures from other dimensions but bind them to your will? tranquilizers can put a man to sleep, but could any device mimik the spells that keep the old ones bound in slumber, spells which had to have been cast from vast interdimensional distances to effect all of them at once?

The answer is both yes and no. Some spells will be trivial to mimik, some can be done far better, faster, and on a much bigger scale than spells possibily could.

And some bits of magic will likely remain forever elusive, things that bend reality in so many strange ways that no machine could possibly keep up.

If we are talking Eldar-race tech, I would have to say sure, that is possible. Cosmic-tech bends all the rules.

I'll have to track down the books, but I'm not sure 4D transformation worked on lifeless objects, but even if it did, you'd need it cast on the pilot as well, as well as cargo or ammo reloads (see commentary on spell modification). Probably more workable from a TW standpoint, rather than Diabolism. And don't forget about the resulting insanities.

If I were GMing the prototype testing phase, I'd be very likely to rewatch Event Horizon beforehand (and leave the case sitting where the players can see it (whether I actually pull any of it on them or not, is good to keep the risks in their minds))

Braden Campbell wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:If you could somehow, then yes. It works in theory but one would need to modify the spell first.

Heh... good luck with the test run phase of that
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gd0nQUF00Sg

I didn't say I thought it would be a particuarlly good idea

Although why would you need to. Those Out of Phase ships the promethians can might as well do that already.

I agree that without some significant modifications to the spell, a Permanence ward could enable a sub-capital/capital/super-capital starship to be able to temporarily enter the 4th dimension. However, according to WB: 3 (England), only a high level wizard/mage (9th level or higher) would get the opportunity to learn any temporal magic, and even then it would be a rarity to learn a temporal spell above 12th level.

Grand Paladin wrote:I agree that without some significant modifications to the spell, a Permanence ward could enable a sub-capital/capital/super-capital starship to be able to temporarily enter the 4th dimension. However, according to WB: 3 (England), only a high level wizard/mage (9th level or higher) would get the opportunity to learn any temporal magic, and even then it would be a rarity to learn a temporal spell above 12th level.

Seems like everyone's leaving off the whole 'may drive you temporarily or permanently insane' problem of going 4th dimensional as it's not a natural state any normal being can handle including gods apparently.

Nightmask wrote:

Grand Paladin wrote:I agree that without some significant modifications to the spell, a Permanence ward could enable a sub-capital/capital/super-capital starship to be able to temporarily enter the 4th dimension. However, according to WB: 3 (England), only a high level wizard/mage (9th level or higher) would get the opportunity to learn any temporal magic, and even then it would be a rarity to learn a temporal spell above 12th level.

Seems like everyone's leaving off the whole 'may drive you temporarily or permanently insane' problem of going 4th dimensional as it's not a natural state any normal being can handle including gods apparently.

The insanity problem only happens after the spell stops working and you return to normal 3D mode.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:So if a Diabolist w Temporal Magicks place a Permanent Ward plus 4th Dimensional Transformation onto a fighter/battle-cruiser/super capital ship, does that provide the starship with the ability to shift into 4th Dimension?

Your thoughts please.

4 dimensional transformation has no valid target other than "self", so without modifying the spell heavily you could not cast it on the ship in the first place.

If you could somehow, then yes. It works in theory but one would need to modify the spell first.

Diabolists can put permanent wards on other people and other objects.

In PF core book, it is stated that you can't put a ward on a sword because the ward will be activated continuously for as long as you swing a sword.

But what happens when you want a ward to be active continuously? Like the example of giving 4th Dimensional Transformational abilities to objects and people?

crystaleye1950 wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:So if a Diabolist w Temporal Magicks place a Permanent Ward plus 4th Dimensional Transformation onto a fighter/battle-cruiser/super capital ship, does that provide the starship with the ability to shift into 4th Dimension?

Your thoughts please.

4 dimensional transformation has no valid target other than "self", so without modifying the spell heavily you could not cast it on the ship in the first place.

If you could somehow, then yes. It works in theory but one would need to modify the spell first.

Diabolists can put permanent wards on other people and other objects.

In PF core book, it is stated that you can't put a ward on a sword because the ward will be activated continuously for as long as you swing a sword.

But what happens when you want a ward to be active continuously? Like the example of giving 4th Dimensional Transformational abilities to objects and people?

I already said the permancy ward can do that.

My point is you cannot cast the spell 4th dimensional transformation on anything other than yourself, period, without modifying the spell, sinse the spell is explictly "Self only"

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:Thundercloud galaxies show the possibility of Elders using high-science technologies to mimic major super abilities from Heroes Unlimited.

I am just wondering if it is possible for Elders to use such high-level technologies to mimic spells of magic as well.

A question with a complicated answer. Arguably technology in basic phaseworld has a plasma rifle "mimiking" the plasma bolt spell. Arguably a teleportation device "mimiks" a teleport spell. These things are obviously possible with even lesser technology level.

That's because when you get down to it, most spells simply mimick or alter the physical world you can interact with anyway. Fire spells can make fire, but so can technology. a conjorer can create objects, but so could a replicator device.

These things will become increasingly easy to mimick spells as you reach elder-level technologies. in fact, at elder level technology, it will become possible to create effects that magic couldn't dream of.

No spell in the game deals the raw damage of a battleships main cannon, because no spellcaster has enough PPE to possibly power a blast that potent. Yet in theory if a Mystic Knight had access to trillions of PPE, their PPE channeling ability would give them the ability to create a bolt that would core a Dominator's planetoid ship in one shot, something no ship even built by other eldar races could do!

So as you can see, the biggest limiting problem on both ends is energy source. Mages can create all kinds of facining effects with realtivly little PPE, because magic can do some things so efficently. but no mage can match the energy output of an antimatter starship drive. So as technology reaches the Elder Race levels, they increasingly become able to do things on a scale that puts mages to shame. a conjurer can create swords and personal armor with nothing but himself. an elder race with a energy-matter converter could create whole starships from a sufficently large power source. But the requirements to set it up are far greater than the conjurer making his own weapons on the spot.



Now onto another thing: While most magics that simply effect the world around them in some way, other spells do get things weirder. Can Technology ever create a Wall of Not? Can you develop a device that not only summons creatures from other dimensions but bind them to your will? tranquilizers can put a man to sleep, but could any device mimik the spells that keep the old ones bound in slumber, spells which had to have been cast from vast interdimensional distances to effect all of them at once?

The answer is both yes and no. Some spells will be trivial to mimik, some can be done far better, faster, and on a much bigger scale than spells possibily could.

And some bits of magic will likely remain forever elusive, things that bend reality in so many strange ways that no machine could possibly keep up.

But you are thinking of technologies in terms of japanese sci-fi "machines" and "robots".

Do you not think that rune magic, rune weapons making, wards, circles, tattoos and of course Techno Wizardry are forms of technologies as well?

As the phrase goes, Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

I think that some elder races have accomplished such a high level of technology and magick that they are able to synthesize the two into one complete art.

Case in point, just examine the Obelisk of Souls found in Thunder Cloud Galaxy. Kinda reminds you of the Blue Light Teleportation Obelisk found in the movie John Carter, doesn't it.

Question is .. is this Obelisk magic or science or both? Now there is a note that says entities may be attracted to the obelisk. Now why would entities be attracted if that Obelisk is purely scientific and technological?

For the past few centuries, man has been trying to manipulate the laws of this reality from a scientific technological standpoint.In other words, man has been trying to manipulate the forces of magic from a technological scientific perspective.

How about doing things the other way round from now on.

How about manipulating the laws of physics from a magical point of perspective?

Well some might begin to argue that there's whats mages have been doing all along. Manipulating the laws of physics from a magical point of perspective using their magic powers and skills and what not.

But then the question comes along... what's the difference between the laws of physics and the forces of magic? Aren't they one and the same?

If that's the case, then isn't it plausible that certain high-level Elder races are able to manipulate the laws of physics/forces of magic using high level magical/TW/high-science rune technologies?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:So if a Diabolist w Temporal Magicks place a Permanent Ward plus 4th Dimensional Transformation onto a fighter/battle-cruiser/super capital ship, does that provide the starship with the ability to shift into 4th Dimension?

Your thoughts please.

4 dimensional transformation has no valid target other than "self", so without modifying the spell heavily you could not cast it on the ship in the first place.

If you could somehow, then yes. It works in theory but one would need to modify the spell first.

Diabolists can put permanent wards on other people and other objects.

In PF core book, it is stated that you can't put a ward on a sword because the ward will be activated continuously for as long as you swing a sword.

But what happens when you want a ward to be active continuously? Like the example of giving 4th Dimensional Transformational abilities to objects and people?

I already said the permancy ward can do that.

My point is you cannot cast the spell 4th dimensional transformation on anything other than yourself, period, without modifying the spell, sinse the spell is explictly "Self only"

I think that the both of us have different views on permanency wards.

As far as I am concerned, diabolists have the abilities to stich on magical spells on other people and other objects.

Check out this thread on using permanency wards to empower Golems.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=41875

Some might hold the view that it is possible to sew a permanency ward on a person, wait for another wizard to cast another spell on person with permanency ward and then have another diabolist empower the permanency ward to achieve permanent operaton of the spell.

My point of view is that this would seriously break the game.

A diabolist has to know both the ward and the spell he wanna cast in order to sew the ward onto the person aka T-men.

crystaleye1950 wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:Thundercloud galaxies show the possibility of Elders using high-science technologies to mimic major super abilities from Heroes Unlimited.

I am just wondering if it is possible for Elders to use such high-level technologies to mimic spells of magic as well.

A question with a complicated answer. Arguably technology in basic phaseworld has a plasma rifle "mimiking" the plasma bolt spell. Arguably a teleportation device "mimiks" a teleport spell. These things are obviously possible with even lesser technology level.

That's because when you get down to it, most spells simply mimick or alter the physical world you can interact with anyway. Fire spells can make fire, but so can technology. a conjorer can create objects, but so could a replicator device.

These things will become increasingly easy to mimick spells as you reach elder-level technologies. in fact, at elder level technology, it will become possible to create effects that magic couldn't dream of.

No spell in the game deals the raw damage of a battleships main cannon, because no spellcaster has enough PPE to possibly power a blast that potent. Yet in theory if a Mystic Knight had access to trillions of PPE, their PPE channeling ability would give them the ability to create a bolt that would core a Dominator's planetoid ship in one shot, something no ship even built by other eldar races could do!

So as you can see, the biggest limiting problem on both ends is energy source. Mages can create all kinds of facining effects with realtivly little PPE, because magic can do some things so efficently. but no mage can match the energy output of an antimatter starship drive. So as technology reaches the Elder Race levels, they increasingly become able to do things on a scale that puts mages to shame. a conjurer can create swords and personal armor with nothing but himself. an elder race with a energy-matter converter could create whole starships from a sufficently large power source. But the requirements to set it up are far greater than the conjurer making his own weapons on the spot.



Now onto another thing: While most magics that simply effect the world around them in some way, other spells do get things weirder. Can Technology ever create a Wall of Not? Can you develop a device that not only summons creatures from other dimensions but bind them to your will? tranquilizers can put a man to sleep, but could any device mimik the spells that keep the old ones bound in slumber, spells which had to have been cast from vast interdimensional distances to effect all of them at once?

The answer is both yes and no. Some spells will be trivial to mimik, some can be done far better, faster, and on a much bigger scale than spells possibily could.

And some bits of magic will likely remain forever elusive, things that bend reality in so many strange ways that no machine could possibly keep up.

But you are thinking of technologies in terms of japanese sci-fi "machines" and "robots".

Do you not think that rune magic, rune weapons making, wards, circles, tattoos and of course Techno Wizardry are forms of technologies as well?

As the phrase goes, Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

I think that some elder races have accomplished such a high level of technology and magick that they are able to synthesize the two into one complete art.

Case in point, just examine the Obelisk of Souls found in Thunder Cloud Galaxy. Kinda reminds you of the Blue Light Teleportation Obelisk found in the movie John Carter, doesn't it.

Question is .. is this Obelisk magic or science or both? Now there is a note that says entities may be attracted to the obelisk. Now why would entities be attracted if that Obelisk is purely scientific and technological?

For the past few centuries, man has been trying to manipulate the laws of this reality from a scientific technological standpoint.In other words, man has been trying to manipulate the forces of magic from a technological scientific perspective.

How about doing things the other way round from now on.

How about manipulating the laws of physics from a magical point of perspective?

Well some might begin to argue that there's whats mages have been doing all along. Manipulating the laws of physics from a magical point of perspective using their magic powers and skills and what not.

But then the question comes along... what's the difference between the laws of physics and the forces of magic? Aren't they one and the same?

If that's the case, then isn't it plausible that certain high-level Elder races are able to manipulate the laws of physics/forces of magic using high level magical/TW/high-science rune technologies?

You will find that some vehemently reject any comparisons between magic and science as all being just different technologies. They wish for magic to be special and contrary to science to the point it really couldn't work at all due to insisting it hasn't any rules at all which would mean you couldn't learn it or teach it because you couldn't give any idea of how to work it to anyone because 'well it has no rules'. So suggesting looking at magic as just another science is pretty much a heresy.

crystaleye1950 wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:So if a Diabolist w Temporal Magicks place a Permanent Ward plus 4th Dimensional Transformation onto a fighter/battle-cruiser/super capital ship, does that provide the starship with the ability to shift into 4th Dimension?

Your thoughts please.

4 dimensional transformation has no valid target other than "self", so without modifying the spell heavily you could not cast it on the ship in the first place.

If you could somehow, then yes. It works in theory but one would need to modify the spell first.

Diabolists can put permanent wards on other people and other objects.

In PF core book, it is stated that you can't put a ward on a sword because the ward will be activated continuously for as long as you swing a sword.

But what happens when you want a ward to be active continuously? Like the example of giving 4th Dimensional Transformational abilities to objects and people?

I already said the permancy ward can do that.

My point is you cannot cast the spell 4th dimensional transformation on anything other than yourself, period, without modifying the spell, sinse the spell is explictly "Self only"

I think that the both of us have different views on permanency wards.

As far as I am concerned, diabolists have the abilities to stich on magical spells on other people and other objects.

Check out this thread on using permanency wards to empower Golems.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=41875

Some might hold the view that it is possible to sew a permanency ward on a person, wait for another wizard to cast another spell on person with permanency ward and then have another diabolist empower the permanency ward to achieve permanent operaton of the spell.

My point of view is that this would seriously break the game.

A diabolist has to know both the ward and the spell he wanna cast in order to sew the ward onto the person aka T-men.

That's an even stranger veiw, considering diabolists do not learn spells...

crystaleye1950 wrote:As the phrase goes, Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

A better phrasing that does not cause these kinds of misunderstandings is "To a soceity sufficently primitive, any technology appears to be magic"

The Native Mexicans thought that the spaniards muskets were magic. that dosn't make them magic.

Just because a domnitaor's technology appears to be magic, does not make it magic.

That phrase you are misquoting was explictly ment to apply to a persons preception of that technology, not a theory on the nature of magic (if it existed)

crystaleye1950 wrote:So if a Diabolist w Temporal Magicks place a Permanent Ward plus 4th Dimensional Transformation onto a fighter/battle-cruiser/super capital ship, does that provide the starship with the ability to shift into 4th Dimension?

Your thoughts please.

One of my players tried something similar to that in game.

It failed...

Kovoston wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:So if a Diabolist w Temporal Magicks place a Permanent Ward plus 4th Dimensional Transformation onto a fighter/battle-cruiser/super capital ship, does that provide the starship with the ability to shift into 4th Dimension?

Your thoughts please.

One of my players tried something similar to that in game.

It failed...

How spectacularly?

taalismn wrote:

Kovoston wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:So if a Diabolist w Temporal Magicks place a Permanent Ward plus 4th Dimensional Transformation onto a fighter/battle-cruiser/super capital ship, does that provide the starship with the ability to shift into 4th Dimension?

Your thoughts please.

One of my players tried something similar to that in game.

It failed...

How spectacularly?

The device and the escape pod vanished forever... The pilot just stood there....

crystaleye1950 wrote:Some might hold the view that it is possible to sew a permanency ward on a person, wait for another wizard to cast another spell on person with permanency ward and then have another diabolist empower the permanency ward to achieve permanent operaton of the spell.

My point of view is that this would seriously break the game.

A diabolist has to know both the ward and the spell he wanna cast in order to sew the ward onto the person aka T-men.

It isn't a "some might hold the view" issue, that is literally the only way you can do it. Considering, as Nekira also notes, Diabolists do not learn or cast spells.


I'm not sure how a sideline discussion on the nature of magic cropped up in this thread, but as far as the facts go within the Palladium Megaverse:

Armorlord wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:Some might hold the view that it is possible to sew a permanency ward on a person, wait for another wizard to cast another spell on person with permanency ward and then have another diabolist empower the permanency ward to achieve permanent operaton of the spell.

My point of view is that this would seriously break the game.

A diabolist has to know both the ward and the spell he wanna cast in order to sew the ward onto the person aka T-men.

It isn't a "some might hold the view" issue, that is literally the only way you can do it. Considering, as Nekira also notes, Diabolists do not learn or cast spells.

If you are saying that Wizard A can cast invisibility, invulnerability, resist fire, nightvision, blind, curse, magic sickness on Warrior B and let Diabolist C make all the spells permanent by empowering the permanent wards on B, then this will break the game.

As far as I am concerned, Diabolists have to know both ward and spell magic in order sew wards of magic granting special abilities to beings.

It makes more logical sense that way.

crystaleye1950 wrote:

Armorlord wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:Some might hold the view that it is possible to sew a permanency ward on a person, wait for another wizard to cast another spell on person with permanency ward and then have another diabolist empower the permanency ward to achieve permanent operaton of the spell.

My point of view is that this would seriously break the game.

A diabolist has to know both the ward and the spell he wanna cast in order to sew the ward onto the person aka T-men.

It isn't a "some might hold the view" issue, that is literally the only way you can do it. Considering, as Nekira also notes, Diabolists do not learn or cast spells.

If you are saying that Wizard A can cast invisibility, invulnerability, resist fire, nightvision, blind, curse, magic sickness on Warrior B and let Diabolist C make all the spells permanent by empowering the permanent wards on B, then this will break the game.

As far as I am concerned, Diabolists have to know both ward and spell magic in order sew wards of magic granting special abilities to beings.

It makes more logical sense that way.

And how exactly is making them able to cast spells on top of their other abilities more balanced?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:

Armorlord wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:Some might hold the view that it is possible to sew a permanency ward on a person, wait for another wizard to cast another spell on person with permanency ward and then have another diabolist empower the permanency ward to achieve permanent operaton of the spell.

My point of view is that this would seriously break the game.

A diabolist has to know both the ward and the spell he wanna cast in order to sew the ward onto the person aka T-men.

It isn't a "some might hold the view" issue, that is literally the only way you can do it. Considering, as Nekira also notes, Diabolists do not learn or cast spells.

If you are saying that Wizard A can cast invisibility, invulnerability, resist fire, nightvision, blind, curse, magic sickness on Warrior B and let Diabolist C make all the spells permanent by empowering the permanent wards on B, then this will break the game.

As far as I am concerned, Diabolists have to know both ward and spell magic in order sew wards of magic granting special abilities to beings.

It makes more logical sense that way.

And how exactly is making them able to cast spells on top of their other abilities more balanced?

Indeed.

Crystaleye might be forgetting the key ingredient for a permanence ward, which is why you don't see them all over: a suitably large piece of bone from an adult dragon, demon lord, or similarly powerful being.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:

Armorlord wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:Some might hold the view that it is possible to sew a permanency ward on a person, wait for another wizard to cast another spell on person with permanency ward and then have another diabolist empower the permanency ward to achieve permanent operaton of the spell.

My point of view is that this would seriously break the game.

A diabolist has to know both the ward and the spell he wanna cast in order to sew the ward onto the person aka T-men.

It isn't a "some might hold the view" issue, that is literally the only way you can do it. Considering, as Nekira also notes, Diabolists do not learn or cast spells.

If you are saying that Wizard A can cast invisibility, invulnerability, resist fire, nightvision, blind, curse, magic sickness on Warrior B and let Diabolist C make all the spells permanent by empowering the permanent wards on B, then this will break the game.

As far as I am concerned, Diabolists have to know both ward and spell magic in order sew wards of magic granting special abilities to beings.

It makes more logical sense that way.

And how exactly is making them able to cast spells on top of their other abilities more balanced?

well it is much harder to find a mage who is a alchemist-wizard-diabolist than to find two separate mages working together, a wizard and a diabolist.

unless you wanna make permanency wards a common thingy and less restricted, i would say my interpretation would make permanent wards the exception rather than the rule

crystaleye1950 wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:

Armorlord wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:Some might hold the view that it is possible to sew a permanency ward on a person, wait for another wizard to cast another spell on person with permanency ward and then have another diabolist empower the permanency ward to achieve permanent operaton of the spell.

My point of view is that this would seriously break the game.

A diabolist has to know both the ward and the spell he wanna cast in order to sew the ward onto the person aka T-men.

It isn't a "some might hold the view" issue, that is literally the only way you can do it. Considering, as Nekira also notes, Diabolists do not learn or cast spells.

If you are saying that Wizard A can cast invisibility, invulnerability, resist fire, nightvision, blind, curse, magic sickness on Warrior B and let Diabolist C make all the spells permanent by empowering the permanent wards on B, then this will break the game.

As far as I am concerned, Diabolists have to know both ward and spell magic in order sew wards of magic granting special abilities to beings.

It makes more logical sense that way.

And how exactly is making them able to cast spells on top of their other abilities more balanced?

well it is much harder to find a mage who is a alchemist-wizard-diabolist than to find two separate mages working together, a wizard and a diabolist.

unless you wanna make permanency wards a common thingy and less restricted, i would say my interpretation would make permanent wards the exception rather than the rule

The problem to me seems more that diabolists are very rare in the first place. they're rare on palladium and basically unheard of anywhere else. and if a PC is one, well, good luck getting enough dragon bone to make them all.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:well it is much harder to find a mage who is a alchemist-wizard-diabolist than to find two separate mages working together, a wizard and a diabolist.

unless you wanna make permanency wards a common thingy and less restricted, i would say my interpretation would make permanent wards the exception rather than the rule

The problem to me seems more that diabolists are very rare in the first place. they're rare on palladium and basically unheard of anywhere else. and if a PC is one, well, good luck getting enough dragon bone to make them all.

You know, I've always wondered exactly why that's so hard to manage. I mean it's probably a fridge logic point but creatures like dragons regenerate massively, capable of regrowing entire lost limbs in hours you could take off their arm or leg for bone and they'd grow it back quite quickly. It's not like you have to kill those creatures to gain what you need (well other than the ones that require a skull, REALLY hard to harvest something like that without killing the creature).

Nightmask wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:well it is much harder to find a mage who is a alchemist-wizard-diabolist than to find two separate mages working together, a wizard and a diabolist.

unless you wanna make permanency wards a common thingy and less restricted, i would say my interpretation would make permanent wards the exception rather than the rule

The problem to me seems more that diabolists are very rare in the first place. they're rare on palladium and basically unheard of anywhere else. and if a PC is one, well, good luck getting enough dragon bone to make them all.

You know, I've always wondered exactly why that's so hard to manage. I mean it's probably a fridge logic point but creatures like dragons regenerate massively, capable of regrowing entire lost limbs in hours you could take off their arm or leg for bone and they'd grow it back quite quickly. It's not like you have to kill those creatures to gain what you need (well other than the ones that require a skull, REALLY hard to harvest something like that without killing the creature).

Most dragons are not so ready and/or willing to part with their appendages.

Johnathan wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:well it is much harder to find a mage who is a alchemist-wizard-diabolist than to find two separate mages working together, a wizard and a diabolist.

unless you wanna make permanency wards a common thingy and less restricted, i would say my interpretation would make permanent wards the exception rather than the rule

The problem to me seems more that diabolists are very rare in the first place. they're rare on palladium and basically unheard of anywhere else. and if a PC is one, well, good luck getting enough dragon bone to make them all.

You know, I've always wondered exactly why that's so hard to manage. I mean it's probably a fridge logic point but creatures like dragons regenerate massively, capable of regrowing entire lost limbs in hours you could take off their arm or leg for bone and they'd grow it back quite quickly. It's not like you have to kill those creatures to gain what you need (well other than the ones that require a skull, REALLY hard to harvest something like that without killing the creature).

Most dragons are not so ready and/or willing to part with their appendages.

Still certainly some wouldn't be troubled by it, what with added power being the option from exploiting that fact. It's not like it's that unheard of in science fiction or fantasy novels for such things to occur. The only reason the Splugorth don't do it is their odd feelings towards dragons (although apparently that only applies to the fleshy dragons, they apparently have no problems butchering those crystal dragons depicted in Psyscape, but that's probably a writer-error who didn't know that Splugorth don't do that to dragons ). At least one dragon is known to give up blood in order to maintain a group of Dragon Juicers serving it, something tough enough to treat losing a limb like a human would a fingernail likely wouldn't have issues with it, at least when it wouldn't be inconvenient.

Johnathan wrote:Most dragons are not so ready and/or willing to part with their appendages.

If I was a Draconic Diabolist I'd certainly be willing to rip out a bone to permanency something like 4th D transformation on myself... (No chance of rejection since it's your own bone either lol) It might have an adverse affect on getting more powerful through aging of course... I doubt I'd give them away or sell them, too many legends of magic being focused on one through nail clippings or blood (inc. dragon slayer swords made of dragon bone).

HR

The bone from the permanency ward is strangely easist to get from a dragon, though none would part willingly with the material. Demons/Devils have to be killed in their home dimension to get solid bone, though there one could harvest regenerating limbs if nasty enough.

The recipient cannot be supernatural, or a creature of magic. You have to cast the spells before activation. The caster of the spells does not have to be the diabolist, though one could cast from scrolls.

The thing is, once it is on, you have to keep it safe, as if it is removed, you can go boom.

Getting bone that will work for that ward is tough, though our diabolist used a precision laser device to cut them and so had a bit more bone to ward ratio.

As a pc dragon, I was not happy with the use of any dragon's bones/parts, even the evil ones, though it did happen. I do suspect a couple of the ones I purchased were probably made from dragons.

as a unique ship sure, but everybody would want it. a whole campaign trying to keep the ship in your possession would also seem viable.

And everyone would know about it how?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:And everyone would know about it how?

Because the most super-secret stuff the players try to pull off with their characters is always instantly discovered by all parties that might be interested. Only GM stuff is assured of remaining secret no matter how little effort is made to actually maintain the secret, PC secrets are considered 'known by everyone'.

I guess that depends who your GM is, but that is not always the case old boy.

Jerell wrote:I guess that depends who your GM is, but that is not always the case old boy.

Well it was meant to be a somewhat tongue-in-cheek, sarcastic commentary on how it seems like NPC discover secrets about PC no matter how unlikely it is. One of the Game Modules for the classic Marvel Superhero RPG actually had it that SHIELD and Nick Fury had it that the PC group's headquarters was not only known to them but they could infiltrate it no matter how advanced its security or otherwise unreachable AND get in and out without leaving any trace of their existence outside the impossible-to-scan package that they must open to find out its contents.

Point taken. It does seem like that some times.

The basic spell will not work. You would have to extend the range via TTGD by making a variant of the temporal spell to be able to cast it on things other than self.

Also I'm not clear on how simply enchanting a ship would help since most ships lack sentience.

The only relevance I could see is if you cast it on something like Auntie, a sentience that controls and has bonded with a ship.

Tor wrote:The basic spell will not work. You would have to extend the range via TTGD by making a variant of the temporal spell to be able to cast it on things other than self.

Also I'm not clear on how simply enchanting a ship would help since most ships lack sentience.

The only relevance I could see is if you cast it on something like Auntie, a sentience that controls and has bonded with a ship.

You would probably need more then just a mundane being to bonded with a ship that can travel between dimensions (& times).

Even the TL's needed to bond a 11d being with their *cough* ships, to get them to work 'mostly' right. Even then they needed 6 pilots to stabilize the flights.

Just in terms of who'd you want to try and do this I don't think you'd want a Wizard, you'd want a Spatial Mage Rifter #3 & #5. or a Temporal Wizard, Rifts World Book 3, England.

I'd also think you'd want some sort of ship made of one mold, something magical a Techno Wizard would try and make, so no moving parts, cargo, loose items, etc. One solid hull that magically flies.

Obviously a High M.E., the Spatial Mage would be best with his +3 OCC Bonus and some race that has a high ME roll. I'd also get an attribute boosting Ring, Charm or Talisman +3 M.E. Book 8 Western Empire, pg 159, bottom.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:You would probably need more then just a mundane being to bonded with a ship that can travel between dimensions (& times).

Machine People don't seem very Mundane to me.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Even the TL's needed to bond a 11d being with their *cough* ships, to get them to work 'mostly' right. Even then they needed 6 pilots to stabilize the flights.

I'm not sure what this refers to. Auntie can fly the ship on her own well enough, and it's part of her body, so presumably she could take it with her if she's using this power.

Rather than go to the trouble of creating a new version of the spell, I wonder if a techno-wizard device might be created to allow her to cast it. One of those ones ala Stormspire that those without magic and psionics can use since the PPE is built in?

Tyberius wrote:Just in terms of who'd you want to try and do this I don't think you'd want a Wizard, you'd want a Spatial Mage Rifter #3 & #5. or a Temporal Wizard, Rifts World Book 3, England. a High M.E., the Spatial Mage would be best with his +3 OCC Bonus and some race that has a high ME roll. I'd also get an attribute boosting Ring, Charm or Talisman +3 M.E. Book 8 Western Empire, pg 159, bottom.

I'm unclear what the purpose of these bonuses is for.

Mundane= not magic, nor Psi, nor CoM nor SN.

As to the others, since the lords of time are not licensed by PB....*shrugs*. And their ships are basically what is being talked about, so they got mentioned if not Named. Thought the one most are familiar with is called "Sexy" by her TL.

Tor, 4th D transformation, per the spell in Rifts England book requires a roll to save v. insanity, high M.E. gives you +'s. Possibly temporary, possibly permanent. So if you go 4-D, you're rolling to save v insanity. Spatial Mages gets more bonuses, higher ME, and have to fail 2 consecutive rolls to then get to the insanity table.

There's no indication that d20 bonuses versus insanity benefit anyone rolling on the 4D table. This is a non-standard form of insanity. The best I can figure is whatever bonus you have, you could use it as a penalty on your percentile roll to get you closer to that 1-15 range which only results in temporary side effects.

If Rifter has special rules for this Spatial Mage that's fine though I guess.

well, you don't roll on the insanity table if you make the save v. insanity, right? That's where the high ME comes into play.

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Tyberius wrote:well, you don't roll on the insanity table if you make the save v. insanity, right? That's where the high ME comes into play.

Yes, you do, because people who use the spell aren't indicated as getting a save vs insanity.

TBH I'm not even sure what circumstances you do roll a D20 for insanity saves. Guidelines are given somewhere, but most books have percentile insanity tables, it's confusing.

Little Snuzzles wrote:it would be trapped in the 4th dimension forever.

I'm not sure the spell does what you think it does. It doesn't 'trap' people in any dimension, the spell makes you a semi-4thD creatures who can step in and out at will while the spell is in effect.