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Posted: **Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:34 pm**

The Temporal Mage I'm playing in a Rifts game had a few days of downtime, and part of it was spent making magical Talismen and Scrolls. I sat down to "do the math" to help define/justify what exactly was worked on, and I was astounded at the results. I feel like I'm missing "the catch" to all this, and wonder if anyone else has some ideas. As cool as all this was, it also feels wrong, like it's too good to be true.

Here's some figures I was working on.

Facts:
• A mage can absorb 10 P.P.E. from a Ley Line per melee, that equates to 40 P.P.E. per minute (per Rifts: Ultimate Edition).
• A mage can hold an amount of P.P.E. above his max equal to 3 times his max, and keep it for one minute per P.E. point (per Rifts: Book of Magic). (I'm calling this "overcharging")
• For my mage, this means he can overcharge with an additional 540 P.P.E. (above his max of 180), it will only take him 13.5 minutes to get up to that amount, and he can hold that energy for over 20 minutes (but that last fact isn't necessary for these examples, as you'll see below).

Here's where it all gets crazy.

The Talismen spell costs 500 P.P.E.. This means, when Ley Line energy is available (as it was in the last game), my mage can overcharge with P.P.E. and churn out FOUR Talismen per hour. Now consider Talismen that store P.P.E. - forget the initial charge of 50, because once that's used they can only be recharged to 30 P.P.E. at the cost of 60 P.P.E.. When my mage overcharges with P.P.E. as discussed above, he can recharge NINE of these Talismen using that energy, and from start to finish the process of recharging ALL NINE will take less than half an hour (20.5 minutes, assuming non-stop casting with no interruptions, which I'm not).

But wait, there's more...

Energy Sphere costs 120 P.P.E. to cast, and at level 4 my mage can fill it with up to 400 P.P.E. - Overcharge, cast and fill and there's a 400 P.P.E. Energy Sphere available in less than 15 minutes. Overcharge to 540 P.P.E. again, and with the Energy Sphere available that makes 940 P.P.E. available, and it only takes about a half hour from start to finish to accomplish! When making scrolls using the Create Scroll spell (which costs 100 P.P.E. before adding in the cost of the stored spell), that will result in my mage "only" having 840 P.P.E. to use when casting the spell to be stored. Add in a few P.P.E. talismen (six, specifically), each with 30 P.P.E., and my mage can make a Scroll of Dimensional Portal in less than one hour!

With the Sustain spell active, this can continue for 22 hours out of every 24. And none of that process will use up any P.P.E. from his personal reserves.

I understand the dangers of Psi Stalkers and other beings drawn to high PPE usage, but barring that does this really all work out right?

Posted: **Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:05 am**

You don't need to overcharge or whatever...
If you aren't in a combat situation, there is nothing wrong with you casting your spells as a ritual, pumping in the 10 PPE you get from the Ley Line every melee.
You don't need tricks, if a mage has access to a Ley Line and enough time to do his rituals uninterrupted, he can cast anything that he has knowledge of regardless of the PPE costs.

Posted: **Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:37 am**

Giant2005 wrote:You don't need to overcharge or whatever...
If you aren't in a combat situation, there is nothing wrong with you casting your spells as a ritual, pumping in the 10 PPE you get from the Ley Line every melee.
You don't need tricks, if a mage has access to a Ley Line and enough time to do his rituals uninterrupted, he can cast anything that he has knowledge of regardless of the PPE costs.

None of those spells are known as rituals in that example, but that's an interesting thought.

Posted: **Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:30 pm**

I think... Your math is about right... Congratulations on stumbling one of the many advantages of being at or near a ley line, uninterrupted:

"Have some down time at a ley line? MAKE TALISMANS LIKE A BOSS!!"

Posted: **Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:31 pm**

I've thought about it as well. Free time on a Ley Line = Profit! You can make battery Talismans, or just make a mess of rings loaded with your default combat spells. If you're expecting trouble, load up on the Energy Spheres. Don't forget Amulets, as well. It's hard to get a lot of those bonuses any other way, and anyone can use them. When I get a chance to play a mage, I want to make charm necklaces for the whole party, with one of each Amulet type on it. A cool little gift, and just so dang useful. You could produce a full one once every 2 or 3 hours. I remember that some of the Amulet types cost more.

Scrolls are super useful; how useful would it be to make an Iron Golem, if you can?

Posted: **Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:27 pm**

I didn't think you could have more than one energy sphere at a time? I guess the spell doesn't say either way. Fascinating.

Posted: **Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:07 pm**

Ley lines are okay, but if you want to play with serious PPE, go to the mall, subway, or other densely populated area, preferably in a dimension that doesn't know anything about magic so you aren't competing with other magic users (this is the true power of Dimensional Portal which your temporal wizard automatically gets at level 1).

RUE left it out, but grab your copy of RMB (or HU2 or any other palladium book that includes rules for the PPE based magic system) and look up "Drawing PPE without one's knowledge" (p162 in RMB). Essentially, you can draw half of someone's PPE without them knowing assuming they don't know how to use their own PPE and fail to save vs magic (12+). You can draw from 2 people per level, the range is 10 feet per level, and you can attempt to draw as many times as you have attacks.

So, go some place where lots of people will be walking past you (think the NY subway or any pedestrian street in a big city) and assuming only half the people make their save vs magic (which is slightly pessimistic since the average person does not have a +1 to save vs magic), you can expect to draw an average of 3.5 times your level in PPE every attack. If you have 4 attacks per melee, then that's 14 PPE per melee at level 1, 28 PPE per melee at level 2, 42 PPE per melee at level 3, etc. It gets even better at level 4 and above since you gain more attacks from your HtH skill.

Now compare that to your measly 10 PPE per melee that you get from a Ley Line...

A 5th level caster with 5 attacks (any HtH skill is sufficient) should expect to draw at least 87.5 PPE every 15 seconds and be able to create a Talisman every 8 melees (6 melees to draw PPE, 2 melees to cast the spell). If you have three 5th level caster buddies who draw PPE while you're casting Talisman, they can provide you with the PPE you need to cast Talisman every 30 seconds!

Now you're playing with power!

--flatline

Posted: **Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:44 pm**

This really does sound too good to be true! I'm glad it is!!!

Posted: **Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:01 pm**

Witchcraft wrote:This really does sound too good to be true! I'm glad it is!!!

What's too good to be true?

--flatline

Posted: **Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:55 pm**

Witchcraft wrote:This really does sound too good to be true! I'm glad it is!!!

its not.
Until you factor in the aspect that your massive castings are going to be a beacon to all PPE hunting nasties in the area. (in other words its up to your GM to slow you down).

Posted: **Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:39 pm**

Damian Magecraft wrote:
Witchcraft wrote:This really does sound too good to be true! I'm glad it is!!!
its not.
Until you factor in the aspect that your massive castings are going to be a beacon to all PPE hunting nasties in the area. (in other words its up to your GM to slow you down).

Why should the GM feel compelled to interfere with this type of behavior? Should the GM interfere when a technowizard attempts to create something? If not, then why would this be any different?

Unless the players bring trouble on themselves, let them do their enchanting and then get back to the campaign when they're done.

--flatline

Posted: **Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:07 am**

flatlines option is much better by canon rules, it's not only a larger gain that scales over time much more heavily, but it's less dangerous, less of a chance for the objects drawing power (i.e the Ley Line or the group of people) to bring unwanted disruptions forcing you to spend either the P.P.E you're gathering to beat it back, or other resources (e-clips, arrows, party willingness to defend you, etc). OP idea still works just fine unless you literally interpret the duration for holding P.P.E past max (i.e you don't lose the entire over charge amount after X minutes, but every X minutes, you'd lose the 10 you gained unless it was spent). As a GM, it really depends on the players if this type of thing is fine or not. Talisman is -very- potent with the options it can give wizards, but at the same time, having that potent ability opens up a lot of the lesser used high end spells that are normally to restrictive in cost to be seen as viable, forcing them back into Carpet / Net / Barrage spam.

Posted: **Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:33 am**

flatline wrote:"Drawing PPE without one's knowledge" (p162 in RMB). Essentially, you can draw half of someone's PPE without them knowing assuming they don't know how to use their own PPE and fail to save vs magic (12+). You can draw from 2 people per level, the range is 10 feet per level, and you can attempt to draw as many times as you have attacks.

I remember something along those lines, but attacks? Seems odd being a better martial artist would let you sap PPE at a faster rate.

Do you think bonuses to spell strength count?

Posted: **Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:48 am**

Tor wrote:
flatline wrote:"Drawing PPE without one's knowledge" (p162 in RMB). Essentially, you can draw half of someone's PPE without them knowing assuming they don't know how to use their own PPE and fail to save vs magic (12+). You can draw from 2 people per level, the range is 10 feet per level, and you can attempt to draw as many times as you have attacks.
I remember something along those lines, but attacks? Seems odd being a better martial artist would let you sap PPE at a faster rate.

You are absolutely correct.

I consider attacks per melee to be the most obviously broken and most easily fixed aspect of the game, so I don't use them.

Do you think bonuses to spell strength count?

Personally, I would allow spell strength to apply, but I don't know if there is an official ruling.

--flatline

Posted: **Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:10 am**

I have allowed this player to utilize his spells in such a fashion as heretofore described; I haven't intervened "much" and have allowed him the use of his P.P.E. during the necessary down-time. As for interruptions? Magical attractions? Well those kinds of random encounters are right up my alley! Stepping into a Dimensional Envelope limits what I can send at him -- but I think I do fairly well by keeping it "realistic" and "fair."

Posted: **Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:04 pm**

Witchcraft wrote:I have allowed this player to utilize his spells in such a fashion as heretofore described; I haven't intervened "much" and have allowed him the use of his P.P.E. during the necessary down-time. As for interruptions? Magical attractions? Well those kinds of random encounters are right up my alley! Stepping into a Dimensional Envelope limits what I can send at him -- but I think I do fairly well by keeping it "realistic" and "fair."

How about shifters and other casters/magic creatures (dragons, etc) controlling ley line flows- there are multiple mentions of creatures/beings controlling nexus/lines and if this PC decides to thieve from "their" line/nexus- well, have fun!

Posted: **Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:21 pm**

I reread the entry on absorbing PPE from people. It doesn't mention how long that takes. I'd say the best bet is to make it that 10/melee rate given for ley lines.

Posted: **Sun Oct 14, 2012 11:28 pm**

Tor wrote:I reread the entry on absorbing PPE from people. It doesn't mention how long that takes. I'd say the best bet is to make it that 10/melee rate given for ley lines.

If you read the whole section about absorbing PPE from people, it should be clear that absorbing PPE is something you can do while casting a spell. Since you can cast a spell in one action, you should be able to absorb PPE at least as fast.

I think this was made explicit at some point, but I don't remember where. Perhaps someone else can chime in with the official ruling.

--flatline

Posted: **Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:44 pm**

I thought even low-level spells took at least 2 actions... did this get changed in Book of Magic?

There's an implication that PPE could used at the moment to cast spells in rituals (usually meaning people voluntarily giving PPE) but where did it imply you could steal PPE to cast spells while casting them? Quotes?

Posted: **Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:31 pm**

Tor wrote:I thought even low-level spells took at least 2 actions... did this get changed in Book of Magic?

There's an implication that PPE could used at the moment to cast spells in rituals (usually meaning people voluntarily giving PPE) but where did it imply you could steal PPE to cast spells while casting them? Quotes?

RUE changed the casting rules so spells cost actions now.
level 1 - 5 take one action
Level 6 - 10 take two actions
Level 11 - 15 Take three actions

Posted: **Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:10 pm**

And of course Rituals take whatever amount of time is proscribed for the ritual you know.

Posted: **Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:04 pm**

Nekira Sudacne wrote:And of course Rituals take whatever amount of time is proscribed for the ritual you know.

There used to be rules for a base casting time for ritual versions of any spells over a certain level (I think 7+?). It was a fixed number for the lower level spells and you had to roll a die to determine how long it had to be for higher level spells.

Is that changed?

Posted: **Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:29 pm**

Tor wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:And of course Rituals take whatever amount of time is proscribed for the ritual you know.
There used to be rules for a base casting time for ritual versions of any spells over a certain level (I think 7+?). It was a fixed number for the lower level spells and you had to roll a die to determine how long it had to be for higher level spells.

Is that changed?

I don't know, where was this rule located? I know some spells with explicit ritual versions incorporated a die roll, but that's all.

Posted: **Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:25 am**

All under various books' respective "The Pursuit of Magic" sections:
Rifts pg 164 & Nightbane pg 124 have subsection: "Spells, Rituals, Summoning, and OCC Powers",
HU2 pg 318 & PF2 pg 182 have subsection: "Types of Magic"

Both under ritual/ceremonial magic bolded headings:
"any spell incantation from level seven and higher can be cast as a spell or ritual"
"seven through level ten require 10min of ritualizing"
"eleven to fifteen require 1d6x10+15min"

Presumably for individual incantations listed specifically as rituals that give different times (less or more) would override that general guideline.

Oddly enough, Nightbane has several rituals which are below level seven. I guess those would be exceptions. Except for stuff specifically listed as rituals, we should probably assume that any spell levels 1-6 can only be cast as a spell, without the added (for low level guys) strength rituals come with.

There are a couple exceptions though. The first being, those who have the sorcerous advantage or disadvantage associated with ritual magic, because that wording appears to override the normal limitation.

The second exception would be if a spell is committed to a scroll through a ritually cast 'create scroll'. This seems to impart ritual strength to any spell, even ones not normally castable as rituals. Not only that, but you can still presumably read a scroll at the normal speed it might take to cast an incantation as a spell, not the longer time which a ritual takes, making that an advantage for higher level spells committed to scroll form too.

It's never been too clear on how long scrolls take to read though, so I'm not sure. Presumably 'speed reading' wouldn't be enough since it the words need to be orated, but if Palladium had an Auctioneer OCC, they would be something to fear.

Posted: **Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:33 am**

It works that way.

Has it was mentioned before, there are other forces at work that can be interested in the high P.P.E. your mage is gaining, so it would be good to have some friends watch over him, while he is doing this and do not forget, that a pyramide can fetch up all the P.P.E. from a ley line and the mage gets none of it. Ley Line Storms could also happen.

Posted: **Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:50 am**

Damian Magecraft wrote:
Tor wrote:I thought even low-level spells took at least 2 actions... did this get changed in Book of Magic?

There's an implication that PPE could used at the moment to cast spells in rituals (usually meaning people voluntarily giving PPE) but where did it imply you could steal PPE to cast spells while casting them? Quotes?
RUE changed the casting rules so spells cost actions now.
level 1 - 5 take one action
Level 6 - 10 take two actions
Level 11 - 15 Take three actions

That is SO much better than the "Two low level spells per round, or one round or more for higher level spells" that has been in effect since... forever.

I really need to pick up RUE. I've heard about several nice rules fixes in it. And Vagabonds. Nobody seems too keen on that change. :roll:

Posted: **Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:21 am**

Necrite wrote:
Damian Magecraft wrote:
Tor wrote:I thought even low-level spells took at least 2 actions... did this get changed in Book of Magic?

There's an implication that PPE could used at the moment to cast spells in rituals (usually meaning people voluntarily giving PPE) but where did it imply you could steal PPE to cast spells while casting them? Quotes?
RUE changed the casting rules so spells cost actions now.
level 1 - 5 take one action
Level 6 - 10 take two actions
Level 11 - 15 Take three actions

That is SO much better than the "Two low level spells per round, or one round or more for higher level spells" that has been in effect since... forever.

I really need to pick up RUE. I've heard about several nice rules fixes in it. And Vagabonds. Nobody seems too keen on that change.

Go ahead and pick up RUE, but don't get rid of RMB. RUE changed or omitted a lot of things that were in RMB, but it is not my opinion that it is an improvement over RMB. You'll want to pick and choose what changes to apply to your game.

--flatline

Posted: **Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:43 pm**

Necrite wrote:
Damian Magecraft wrote:level 1 - 5 take one action
Level 6 - 10 take two actions
Level 11 - 15 Take three actions
That is SO much better than the "Two low level spells per round, or one round or more for higher level spells"

I sorta like low level spells like blinding flash taking only an action (though it does remove a lot of advantages to having TW or Cybermage devices) but having someone able to cast a spell like dimensional portal in 3 melee actions seems a bit... rushed.

Necrite wrote:I really need to pick up RUE. I've heard about several nice rules fixes in it. And Vagabonds. Nobody seems too keen on that change.

OMG what happened to the vagabonds? Were they removed? How are we going to get that bonus minor super ability now?

flatline wrote:RUE changed or omitted a lot of things that were in RMB

Since I have RMB, I'm kinda curious, is it possible to vaguely describe what parts were removed? Like did they take out the pictures, or Erin Tarn's summary of the earth?

Posted: **Sun Nov 11, 2012 3:43 pm**

How is this a new idea? Didn't you guys figure this out a while ago? Why do you think the pictures of ley line walks all have all those charms, and other things hanging from them?

But seriously, the only main concern to consider is that ley lines are VERY powerful and are usually controled by someone. These are the watering holes of the magical world and preditors stalk them all the time. There is no such thing as an unoccupied or safe ley line and sooner or later your going to be attacked for tresspassing.

Posted: **Sun Nov 11, 2012 3:49 pm**

Prince Artemis wrote:How is this a new idea? Didn't you guys figure this out a while ago? Why do you think the pictures of ley line walks all have all those charms, and other things hanging from them?

But seriously, the only main concern to consider is that ley lines are VERY powerful and are usually controled by someone. These are the watering holes of the magical world and preditors stalk them all the time. There is no such thing as an unoccupied or safe ley line and sooner or later your going to be attacked for tresspassing.

That may be true in inhabited areas of Rifts Earth, but there may still be "unclaimed" ley lines in sparsely populated areas. Also, uninhabited dimensions may have ley lines. Might be worth some dimension exploring to find a good ley line nexus that is "unclaimed" or "claimed" by someone weaker than you or willing to share with you.

--flatline

Posted: **Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:06 am**

Tor wrote:
Necrite wrote:I really need to pick up RUE. I've heard about several nice rules fixes in it. And Vagabonds. Nobody seems too keen on that change.
OMG what happened to the vagabonds? Were they removed? How are we going to get that bonus minor super ability now?

No, they weren't removed. They were rewritten. I've got a borrowed copy of RUE with me right now, and I don't see any massive changes. I'm really not sure why people were so up in arms over the Vagabond change back when RUE was released.

Posted: **Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:02 pm**

Necrite wrote:
Tor wrote:
Necrite wrote:I really need to pick up RUE. I've heard about several nice rules fixes in it. And Vagabonds. Nobody seems too keen on that change.
OMG what happened to the vagabonds? Were they removed? How are we going to get that bonus minor super ability now?

No, they weren't removed. They were rewritten. I've got a borrowed copy of RUE with me right now, and I don't see any massive changes. I'm really not sure why people were so up in arms over the Vagabond change back when RUE was released.

I don't remember being too concerned with the changes to Vagabond. It was the Cyberknight changes that made me sad.

--flatline

Posted: **Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:08 pm**

flatline wrote:I don't remember being too concerned with the changes to Vagabond. It was the Cyberknight changes that made me sad.

--flatline

Aren't the RUE Cyber Knights basically identical to the RMB+SoT4 Cyber Knights?

Posted: **Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:37 pm**

Necrite wrote:
flatline wrote:I don't remember being too concerned with the changes to Vagabond. It was the Cyberknight changes that made me sad.

--flatline

Aren't the RUE Cyber Knights basically identical to the RMB+SoT4 Cyber Knights?

I have heard mumblings to that effect, but I've never seen any of the SoT books. Whatever the origin of the changes, they took a nicely rounded skill-based OCC and totally ruined the feel by giving it super powers.

--flatline

Posted: **Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:52 pm**

flatline wrote:
Necrite wrote:
flatline wrote:I don't remember being too concerned with the changes to Vagabond. It was the Cyberknight changes that made me sad.

--flatline

Aren't the RUE Cyber Knights basically identical to the RMB+SoT4 Cyber Knights?

I have heard mumblings to that effect, but I've never seen any of the SoT books. Whatever the origin of the changes, they took a nicely rounded skill-based OCC and totally ruined the feel by giving it super powers.

--flatline

Yes CKs are now exactly like the SoT version...
So they went from being an all around palladin like char to an anti-tech type.

Posted: **Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:14 pm**

IIRC, there are some differences between the RUE CK and the Tolkeen version, but not enough.

Posted: **Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:17 pm**

Killer Cyborg wrote:IIRC, there are some differences between the RUE CK and the Tolkeen version, but not enough.

I just eliminated the tech references and made the bonuses apply to every thing. (it sort of set things back to "right")

Posted: **Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:20 pm**

Damian Magecraft wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:IIRC, there are some differences between the RUE CK and the Tolkeen version, but not enough.

I just eliminated the tech references and made the bonuses apply to every thing. (it sort of set things back to "right")

While I don't really have a problem with the CK changes, I never really understood why they turned them into robot-killers. I would have given them powers against demons and supernatural evil. It would have made more sense to me, and would have still given CK a "new" purpose in the SoT - in this case, it would have been protecting the innocents of both sides from the crap that Tolkeen was unleashing.

Posted: **Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:45 pm**

Necrite wrote:
Damian Magecraft wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:IIRC, there are some differences between the RUE CK and the Tolkeen version, but not enough.

I just eliminated the tech references and made the bonuses apply to every thing. (it sort of set things back to "right")

While I don't really have a problem with the CK changes, I never really understood why they turned them into robot-killers. I would have given them powers against demons and supernatural evil. It would have made more sense to me, and would have still given CK a "new" purpose in the SoT - in this case, it would have been protecting the innocents of both sides from the crap that Tolkeen was unleashing.

Having special bonuses against "machines" is just silly. It's as arbitrary as having bonuses against things that are the same color as your shirt.

I don't have my book with me, but if I remember correctly, the way their ability is described, it would apply to morning stars and flails since chain links are technically moving parts.

Retarded...

--flatline

Posted: **Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:19 pm**

Strange as the tech bonuses were, making them apply to everything doesn't seem that consistent. It'd be ideal if RUE didn't contradict things in previous books (or reprint them, weren't BoM and DC enough?). With a new version of VK coming out, does that mean they're gonna wanna market V2s of everything like with PF sourcebooks?

Posted: **Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:40 pm**

Tor wrote:Strange as the tech bonuses were, making them apply to everything doesn't seem that consistent. It'd be ideal if RUE didn't contradict things in previous books (or reprint them, weren't BoM and DC enough?). With a new version of VK coming out, does that mean they're gonna wanna market V2s of everything like with PF sourcebooks?

I don't think that word means what you think it means...
con·sist·ent [kuhn-sis-tuhnt] adjective
constantly adhering to the same principles, course, form, etc.

How is applying the bonuses across the board against all opponents not consistent given that definition?

Posted: **Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:58 pm**

I meant about keeping the Cyber-Knights consistent from book to book. SoT4 revealed the tech powers as 'hidden abilities' that most people didn't know about, explaining why they didn't factor into the game until now (such as Thorpe's abilities in Africa).

SoT4 basically went on huge rants about why they have anti-tech abilities "hey we're not P-S-I-ber knights" and branching it out to everyone in RUE basically nullifies all that source material.

If they're going to do that they should at least explain it in source text like "cyberknights eventually, after learning how to psionically sense tech, went on a massive DreamVisionQuest and suddenly can sense dragons too, yay"

Posted: **Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:28 am**

there are only a few books that I would like PB to revisit because of things in them being messed up.
One of them being SA2 because of their labeling schiem the (psi) Gizmoteer class is a RCC of the Akemi Stone Men. And the newbs about seam to think it be a PCC, just because of the stupid labeling of PCC's as RCC's that was going on since the RMB.

The other is quit newer....the 2nd ed New gen book has quit a few typos, and the 2nd ed Masters and Macross are missing date from the texts.

Then there is the carrier starship in the RTSC hard cover which is just a copy and paste of the 1st ed stats and thus the number of guns it has does not match the animation in the RTSC dvd nor the art work in the RTSC artbook.

okay there are more then two. Rifts Black Market should be "recalled and re-editied" to take out the stupidity that has already been talked about elsewhere.

Posted: **Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:29 pm**

[quote="drewkitty ~..~"SA2 because of their labeling schiem the (psi) Gizmoteer class is a RCC of the Akemi Stone Men. And the newbs about seam to think it be a PCC, just because of the stupid labeling of PCC's as RCC's that was going on since the RMB.[/quote]I had thought that humans were also trained as both Gizmoteers and Duelists. Just because the picture alongside the (P/R)CC is of Amaki doesn't mean it's exclusive to them =/

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