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1. If a scroll was left out on a table, and someone used the Remote Viewing psychic power (or a mage used the equivalent spell) on that location and could see the scroll, would they be able to read the words of the scroll and activate it?

2. If that scroll were removed from the table, and a mage came by and cast Retro-Viewing to see a time period in the past when the scroll was on the table, would that mage be able to read the words of the scroll and activate it?

I understand the answer to both these questions should be "no", but thought I'd put it out here to collect some thoughts as to why that answer'd be "no".

Glistam wrote:1. If a scroll was left out on a table, and someone used the Remote Viewing psychic power (or a mage used the equivalent spell) on that location and could see the scroll, would they be able to read the words of the scroll and activate it?

2. If that scroll were removed from the table, and a mage came by and cast Retro-Viewing to see a time period in the past when the scroll was on the table, would that mage be able to read the words of the scroll and activate it?

I understand the answer to both these questions should be "no", but thought I'd put it out here to collect some thoughts as to why that answer'd be "no".

1. By canon a scroll is activated the moment anything other than the title/heading is read. If a scroll were left open and unread on a table, it stands to reason that someone using Remote Viewing could activate it. However, I'd have to say it wouldn't work because of a lack of proximity to the scroll in order to focus the energy locked within the page and activate the spell. The way i see it, a scroll isn't just activated by reading the printed words, but by basically willing the spell to work as it is read. Final answer... it could go either way depending on your GM's call, 50/50 either way.

2. That would be a flat no. The scroll is no longer present, thus the item will not function. Retro-Viewing is only showing the caster that the scroll was there in the first place, not bringing it back to be used.

Hope this helps... good luck and great gaming!

JuliusCreed wrote:

Glistam wrote:1. If a scroll was left out on a table, and someone used the Remote Viewing psychic power (or a mage used the equivalent spell) on that location and could see the scroll, would they be able to read the words of the scroll and activate it?

2. If that scroll were removed from the table, and a mage came by and cast Retro-Viewing to see a time period in the past when the scroll was on the table, would that mage be able to read the words of the scroll and activate it?

I understand the answer to both these questions should be "no", but thought I'd put it out here to collect some thoughts as to why that answer'd be "no".

1. By canon a scroll is activated the moment anything other than the title/heading is read. If a scroll were left open and unread on a table, it stands to reason that someone using Remote Viewing could activate it. However, I'd have to say it wouldn't work because of a lack of proximity to the scroll in order to focus the energy locked within the page and activate the spell. The way i see it, a scroll isn't just activated by reading the printed words, but by basically willing the spell to work as it is read. Final answer... it could go either way depending on your GM's call, 50/50 either way.

2. That would be a flat no. The scroll is no longer present, thus the item will not function. Retro-Viewing is only showing the caster that the scroll was there in the first place, not bringing it back to be used.

Hope this helps... good luck and great gaming!

Better question...
Would the said viewers be able to convert said scroll?

1) canon says two things: as per the spell text that scroll has to be read aloud, and in Q&A answers elsewhere it says the answer JC said.
I for one am a 'it has to be read aloud' camp. Because reading it aloud shows the intent to actually use the spell. Not just reading a scrap of paper to see what the writing said.

1.1) if I was the GM, no the remote viewer could not read the scroll.
1.2) most scrolls are 'rolled up' unable to be viewed.

But if you could convert a scroll via Retro-Viewing, then you could get multiple chances at converting a single scroll. Unroll the scroll and set it somewhere, then later you use Retro-Viewing to read the scroll and attempt to convert it. You can do this as many times as you like by viewing the same moment in time with the scroll open.

Edit: I actually had a GM that allowed this trick when I attempted it 15+ years ago.

--flatline

flatline wrote:But if you could convert a scroll via Retro-Viewing, then you could get multiple chances at converting a single scroll. Unroll the scroll and set it somewhere, then later you use Retro-Viewing to read the scroll and attempt to convert it. You can do this as many times as you like by viewing the same moment in time with the scroll open.

Edit: I actually had a GM that allowed this trick when I attempted it 15+ years ago.

--flatline

The thing that has to be considered when attempting to use Retro-Viewing to CONVERT a scroll is the description of scroll conversion itself. The Wizard is activating the scroll and harnessing that energy it contains, not to release its effects, but to add a spell to his repertoire. By using Retro Viewing, the Wizard isn't actually seeing the scroll itself, but an image of the scroll being there before. Without the scroll actually being there, there's nothing there for him to activate in the first place. Even if he could see and read whatever words were written on the scroll when it was there, again, while using Retro-Viewing, the scroll itself is not really there and therefor cannot be activated. If the scroll isn't activated, it can't be converted.

JuliusCreed wrote:

flatline wrote:But if you could convert a scroll via Retro-Viewing, then you could get multiple chances at converting a single scroll. Unroll the scroll and set it somewhere, then later you use Retro-Viewing to read the scroll and attempt to convert it. You can do this as many times as you like by viewing the same moment in time with the scroll open.

Edit: I actually had a GM that allowed this trick when I attempted it 15+ years ago.

--flatline

The thing that has to be considered when attempting to use Retro-Viewing to CONVERT a scroll is the description of scroll conversion itself. The Wizard is activating the scroll and harnessing that energy it contains, not to release its effects, but to add a spell to his repertoire. By using Retro Viewing, the Wizard isn't actually seeing the scroll itself, but an image of the scroll being there before. Without the scroll actually being there, there's nothing there for him to activate in the first place. Even if he could see and read whatever words were written on the scroll when it was there, again, while using Retro-Viewing, the scroll itself is not really there and therefor cannot be activated. If the scroll isn't activated, it can't be converted.

Go read the section on scroll conversion again. The fact that the scroll activates when read is what makes scroll conversion tricky by only allowing you to read it once. Activating the scroll is an unwanted side-effect of scroll conversion, not a necessary part of it.

--flatline

While I agree that to convert the scroll, it must activate, unless we give scrolls a 'touch' requirement to use, there's really nothing preventing retro-viewing from reading and activating them, whether to cast a spell to affect the past or to learn a spell and destroy the scroll in the past.

For example: a villain just used a scroll of Annihilate to kill your dog. You happen to know when the villain created the scroll, and that they had it lying around opened up for a while prior to it being read, and you know the spot. Using retro-viewing, you go and read the scroll back during that time, and suddenly, it wasn't available to use to kill your dog, and Fido is back, and now your villain has a smoking crater instead of his luxury sports vehicle.

If fathoming how negating the past in the present works, I suggest people read about the various uses of "Balefire" in Robert Jordan's 'Wheel of Time' series.

JuliusCreed wrote:1. By canon a scroll is activated the moment anything other than the title/heading is read. If a scroll were left open and unread on a table, it stands to reason that someone using Remote Viewing could activate it. However, I'd have to say it wouldn't work because of a lack of proximity to the scroll in order to focus the energy locked within the page and activate the spell. The way i see it, a scroll isn't just activated by reading the printed words, but by basically willing the spell to work as it is read. Final answer... it could go either way depending on your GM's call, 50/50 either way.

While not in the spell description, I always visualize people holding a scroll and reading it. Like Talismans, I think there's a strongly implied 'range: touch' in terms of activating these stored magics.

If scrolls could be activated from anywhere by being looked at, that brings a whole lot of new fun to Nightbane's option of storing scrolls as computer text documents though

JuliusCreed wrote:That would be a flat no. The scroll is no longer present, thus the item will not function. Retro-Viewing is only showing the caster that the scroll was there in the first place, not bringing it back to be used.

Maybe the scroll's magic wouldn't move from past to present but... it IS present in the past. So the use of remote viewing could allow people to change the past via scroll-bombs, I think.

Palladium's gotten too anti-past-affecting lately. I don't see why. Epim can do it, even if she's not nearly as good as an Apprentice Time Mistress like Renet Tilley.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:1) canon says two things: as per the spell text that scroll has to be read aloud, and in Q&A answers elsewhere it says the answer JC said.
I for one am a 'it has to be read aloud' camp. Because reading it aloud shows the intent to actually use the spell. Not just reading a scrap of paper to see what the writing said.

Audible reading's required to USE the spell, but I'm pretty sure I remember reading somewhere that if you read the spell without speaking (or stopped readnig it midway) that the words just disappear and the energy disappates without effect (though I'd probably roll on one of those fun TTGD tables for all that PPE going off into nowhere).

JuliusCreed wrote:the Wizard isn't actually seeing the scroll itself, but an image of the scroll being there before.

What's the difference? This sounds like exactly the same thing. Such an argument breaks down into some circular "ceci n'est pas une pipe". After all, we never truly see things as they are, but rather as they were the moment they reflected light, prior to the time it takes for the light to reach our eyes.

Is the magic of scroll-reading light-related? It still brings up the dilemma of reading scrolls via telescopes. A man with a multi-optic eye and a bunch of scrolls spread out on top of a skyscraper would seem unarmed but be a mystical threat.

Tor wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:1) canon says two things: as per the spell text that scroll has to be read aloud, and in Q&A answers elsewhere it says the answer JC said.
I for one am a 'it has to be read aloud' camp. Because reading it aloud shows the intent to actually use the spell. Not just reading a scrap of paper to see what the writing said.

Audible reading's required to USE the spell, but I'm pretty sure I remember reading somewhere that if you read the spell without speaking (or stopped reading it midway) that the words just disappear and the energy dissipates without effect (though I'd probably roll on one of those fun TTGD tables for all that PPE going off into nowhere).

The Spell descriptive text says that as the words are read aloud, the words on the scroll disappear.

Keeping with the theme of the thread...
Here is a good one for yah...

I have a scroll of Parchment
The spell is written in Silver Runes.
what happens when I use the spell?

Damian Magecraft wrote:Keeping with the theme of the thread...
Here is a good one for yah...

I have a scroll of Parchment
The spell is written in Silver Runes.
what happens when I use the spell?

The spell "Create Magic Scroll" writes the words via magic on the scroll.
So the question is moot because it can't happen.

-----------
Takes a different look at the question....
This might a alchemist would make a TW like object/scroll that has the magic "Pattern" in it but needs to have be read and PPE put into it to make it work.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:Keeping with the theme of the thread...
Here is a good one for yah...

I have a scroll of Parchment
The spell is written in Silver Runes.
what happens when I use the spell?

The spell "Create Magic Scroll" writes the words via magic on the scroll.
So the question is moot because it can't happen.

-----------
Takes a different look at the question....
This might a alchemist would make a TW like object/scroll that has the magic "Pattern" in it but needs to have be read and PPE put into it to make it work.

Prior to 2e creating a scroll was an ability of wizards and clerics and did not require a silly spell to be done. Just the ability to write in a language of some sort.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:Keeping with the theme of the thread...
Here is a good one for yah...

I have a scroll of Parchment
The spell is written in Silver Runes.
what happens when I use the spell?

The spell "Create Magic Scroll" writes the words via magic on the scroll.
So the question is moot because it can't happen.

-----------
Takes a different look at the question....
This might a alchemist would make a TW like object/scroll that has the magic "Pattern" in it but needs to have be read and PPE put into it to make it work.

Prior to 2e creating a scroll was an ability of wizards and clerics and did not require a silly spell to be done. Just the ability to write in a language of some sort.

In the situation presented by DM, in the PF1 context, the words 'might' stay. However, whatever magic was there would of been used up.

This is one of the areas that the 'simple' rules published break down because of overlapping absolutes.

So far I'm seeing a lot of the idea of using Retro Viewing to do a 'scroll bomb' sort of thing. The problem I'm seeing with it is that while using Retro-Viewing, all the caster is seeing is an image of the scroll, a mystic hologram, a phantasmal image, a psychic impression or what have you. But, however you look at it, he is not seeing the scroll itself. This image the caster sees with Retro Viewing has none of the necessary PPE needed to make it a magic item, nor has an incantation of any kind actually been written on it. Heck, it isn't even really an object, just a projected image from the past. Thus, it just won't function. Using the basic idea of activating a scroll using Retro Viewing is relatively akin to a mage getting his hands on a scroll and taking a few dozen photos of it thinking he can read the words off of the picture and get the same results as if he had read the scroll. No, it just doesn't work that way.

JuliusCreed wrote:So far I'm seeing a lot of the idea of using Retro Viewing to do a 'scroll bomb' sort of thing. The problem I'm seeing with it is that while using Retro-Viewing, all the caster is seeing is an image of the scroll, a mystic hologram, a phantasmal image, a psychic impression or what have you. But, however you look at it, he is not seeing the scroll itself. This image the caster sees with Retro Viewing has none of the necessary PPE needed to make it a magic item, nor has an incantation of any kind actually been written on it. Heck, it isn't even really an object, just a projected image from the past. Thus, it just won't function. Using the basic idea of activating a scroll using Retro Viewing is relatively akin to a mage getting his hands on a scroll and taking a few dozen photos of it thinking he can read the words off of the picture and get the same results as if he had read the scroll. No, it just doesn't work that way.

Agreed. retro view and remote view are ok for seeing the scroll and possibly knowing whats on it but thats it.

Retro-Viewing of magic scrolls.

Unless you are going to be Timeywimey as Dr. Who, I would just nix this in the bud.

If the retro viewer is trying to a view a scroll that has already been used by by him or someone else, then the viewing will not be able to read the scroll, the magic is gone.

If the retro viewer is trying to view a scroll that has not been used then there is a "slim" "possibility" of the viewer's plan of working.

Any which way, the scroll can only be used Once.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

JuliusCreed wrote:So far I'm seeing a lot of the idea of using Retro Viewing to do a 'scroll bomb' sort of thing. The problem I'm seeing with it is that while using Retro-Viewing, all the caster is seeing is an image of the scroll, a mystic hologram, a phantasmal image, a psychic impression or what have you. But, however you look at it, he is not seeing the scroll itself. This image the caster sees with Retro Viewing has none of the necessary PPE needed to make it a magic item, nor has an incantation of any kind actually been written on it. Heck, it isn't even really an object, just a projected image from the past. Thus, it just won't function. Using the basic idea of activating a scroll using Retro Viewing is relatively akin to a mage getting his hands on a scroll and taking a few dozen photos of it thinking he can read the words off of the picture and get the same results as if he had read the scroll. No, it just doesn't work that way.

Agreed. retro view and remote view are ok for seeing the scroll and possibly knowing whats on it but thats it.

Thank you DM And to answer your earlier question about a parchment scroll written with silver runes...

1> A Diabolist is the only one who could actually use the scroll because he's the only one who could actually read it in the first place.

2> Once the scroll is read the spell would go off, the PPE for said spell would be used up and the scroll would not work again, but...

3> ... the runes would remain and the scroll could possibly be recharged for future use. The catch is, it would have to be the exact same spell put into the scroll again since the incantation written in silver runes would be unchanged.

Of course all of this is a GM call in the first place, but that's my take on it.

JuliusCreed wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

JuliusCreed wrote:So far I'm seeing a lot of the idea of using Retro Viewing to do a 'scroll bomb' sort of thing. The problem I'm seeing with it is that while using Retro-Viewing, all the caster is seeing is an image of the scroll, a mystic hologram, a phantasmal image, a psychic impression or what have you. But, however you look at it, he is not seeing the scroll itself. This image the caster sees with Retro Viewing has none of the necessary PPE needed to make it a magic item, nor has an incantation of any kind actually been written on it. Heck, it isn't even really an object, just a projected image from the past. Thus, it just won't function. Using the basic idea of activating a scroll using Retro Viewing is relatively akin to a mage getting his hands on a scroll and taking a few dozen photos of it thinking he can read the words off of the picture and get the same results as if he had read the scroll. No, it just doesn't work that way.

Agreed. retro view and remote view are ok for seeing the scroll and possibly knowing whats on it but thats it.

Thank you DM And to answer your earlier question about a parchment scroll written with silver runes...

1> A Diabolist is the only one who could actually use the scroll because he's the only one who could actually read it in the first place.

2> Once the scroll is read the spell would go off, the PPE for said spell would be used up and the scroll would not work again, but...

3> ... the runes would remain and the scroll could possibly be recharged for future use. The catch is, it would have to be the exact same spell put into the scroll again since the incantation written in silver runes would be unchanged.

Of course all of this is a GM call in the first place, but that's my take on it.

oh I have already addressed this one in my games...
I just find it a fun little "paradox" to throw out every now and then.

Damian Magecraft wrote:I have a scroll of Parchment
The spell is written in Silver Runes.
what happens when I use the spell?

I had thought of putting runes on scrolls (mostly to avoid enemies burning them up prior to my using them) but I remember while trawling through PFRPG2ndEd that there is a statement (I think under Create Magic Scroll) that says you can't inscribe silver runes on magic scrolls, something about the magics interfering with one another and not working.

Damian Magecraft wrote:Prior to 2e creating a scroll was an ability of wizards and clerics and did not require a silly spell to be done. Just the ability to write in a language of some sort.

Must've been the very earliest edition because in my revised edition of PRPG, there was still a spell for it, which is how normal wizards did it. Priests who could make scrolls were basically just imbued with that spell temporarily.

I think it even said that alchemists used the spell to create scrolls. Not sure if anyone had that ability to simply write them. Much better %s at higher levels for deciphering though.

JuliusCreed wrote:So far I'm seeing a lot of the idea of using Retro Viewing to do a 'scroll bomb' sort of thing. The problem I'm seeing with it is that while using Retro-Viewing, all the caster is seeing is an image of the scroll, a mystic hologram, a phantasmal image, a psychic impression or what have you. But, however you look at it, he is not seeing the scroll itself.

Actually, it is. This stuff about hologram/phantasmal image/psychic impression is your words. I believe all you need to do is 'read' the scroll, no? The image is just being conveyed via magic, but it's still the image. What's next, I can't read a magic scroll in a mirror? Through a cool pair of sunglasses?

JuliusCreed wrote:This image the caster sees with Retro Viewing has none of the necessary PPE needed to make it a magic item, nor has an incantation of any kind actually been written on it.

There's nothing about magic scrolls that say their 'image' has PPE. It's the scroll itself that contains the PPE, and it's activated by sensing when it is being read.

JuliusCreed wrote:Heck, it isn't even really an object, just a projected image from the past.

The sight of a scroll isn't an object either, just a projected image from the present. Or actually, ALSO the past, since it takes time for light to travel from the image to a person's eyes. The scroll itself is an object though.

JuliusCreed wrote:the basic idea of activating a scroll using Retro Viewing is relatively akin to a mage getting his hands on a scroll and taking a few dozen photos of it thinking he can read the words off of the picture and get the same results as if he had read the scroll.

Naw, see when you take a photo, you alter the image. Like it becomes a negative, or gets converted into digital, etc.

Remote viewing perfectly conveys the sight exactly as it is. It's like you're there. Like a crystal ball. Like a Deific Perception.