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Grimlock wrote:Hey all,

I'm beginning to think I'm the most annoying person in the Q&A forums, with all the questions I've been asking. Well, I'll cement my status with yet more questions:

Greetings and Salutations. No worries, questions happen. That's why we have this forum and why we're here to help.

Grimlock wrote:I've just finished reading Rifts: Ultimate Edition and I've noticed there's a significant change with Meditation: Magicians are all able to Meditate as part of their training, while Psychic characters have to choose the ability to Meditate as one of their power selections.

I'm guessing this was a measure by Mr. Siembieda to curb the potency of Psionics; characters with Meditation would have one less Psionic "power" to aid them, but that would be offset by the ability to regenerate I.S.P. at a faster rate: characters without Meditation would have one more power, but would need to wait longer to regenrate I.S.P. This also assumes that napping doesn't count as sleep for the increased I.S.P. replenishment of rest; I always assumed a full, deep sleep was required to gain the increased I.S.P recovery.

This wasn't actually a question, but I'm going to address this comment anyways. Looking over it, I believe this is actually an oversight, not an intentional action. Magicians do indeed have Meditation (which existed even pre-RUE), but the removal of it from psychics I'd say is an oversight. I'll explain my process of thinking though.

1: RUE; Page 186 where it describes practitioners of magic having it, meditation is described as a skill (a mental discipline), not a psychic power. So why can't psychics learn a mental discipline and can only learn it as a psionic? While I know logic doesn't always apply to game mechanics, there will be additional support in the following points. I started off with this just to get that into the back of your mind.

2: In Palladium Fantasy 2nd Edition (PF2) and Rifts original main book (RMB), there's a clear statement all psychics automatically know this "skill/ability" and that it's not as much a "psi-power as it is a mental discipline." This seems to go along with the passage in RUE; page 186 regarding the mage's meditation. The section in PF2 of RMB is NOT under the psi-power description in RUE, but in a separate section just talking about psychics. This section is not in RUE, but could just as easily be an oversight as an intentional removal. So to help determine if it's intentional or accidental, we continue to look at the evidence. Note: Rifts Game Master Guide (RGMG) has a similar note, and even makes specific mention of "minor" psychics "automatically" having this "intuitive" ability.

3: In old versions, the psychics always (or at least typically, if you can find an exception) had "Meditation" listed as one of their starting psionics. Having it listed in each class, as well as the separate section mentioning it automatic to all, is redundant (but at least makes sure there is no oversight). However, we could lose the individual listings and keep the one broad statement without losing much. This is just a general note.

Now back to RUE (just wanted to give some history) ...

4: RUE; page 366 mentions "standard meditation." However, what "standard" they're referring to is unclear. Is this "standard" in that it's not the advanced version (which doesn't exist in RUE), or "standard" in that every psychic has it? We don't know. I'd lean towards the latter, but we don't have any clear wording.

5: RUE; page 141 in the Burster description. Power #9 mentions "or 12 per hour of meditation or sleep." Now this mentions meditation, but let's look deeper into the Burster class. Power #8 mentions their psychic powers (other than their special O.C.C. psychic powers) with a list. This list doesn't include Meditation. So if they can't select Meditation as a psychic ability, how can they get Meditation rates? While it does mention sleep as well, it still specifically mentions Meditation as an option, which makes no sense unless, of course, it's standard.

6: In RUE all of Bursters, Dog Boys, and Psi-Stalkers mention a special Meditation rate (Mind Melters are oddly missing this note, which means the "most powerful" psychics recover ISP slower than other psychics?!), a Meditation rate mentioned as a standard part of their O.C.C., but restricted only if the character selects it (which is impossible for the Burster)? Possible, but it makes more sense (to me) that it's listed in the O.C.C. because it's part of the O.C.C. (not just the "maybe" "possibly" "could be" "if" you select this one power).

Sorry, I got nothing more at this time. It looks (to me) as a genuine oversight/editing mistake, but I could be wrong. I've shown my line of thought here.

Grimlock wrote:So, with all that, here are my questions:

1] Am I correct in assuming that Magicians who are also Psychics (i.e. Mystics and Techno-Wizards) don't need to choose Mediation as a Psionic power as they already know how to Meditate from their mystical training?;

I'd say no, but I'd also say that psychics still get it standard so ... take that how you will.

Grimlock wrote:2] Would the above also apply to other Magic Users (Ley Line Walkers and Shifters) who also happen to be Minor/Major Psionics?;

I'd say yes, but again I'd say it's a standard part of psychics (even Minor, as noted above) so ... take that how you will.

Grimlock wrote:3] Would the Psionic Power to Meditate allow for non-Magicians who have P.P.E.-based powers, for example: a Psionic Larhold Human Renegade O.C.C. from Rifts: South America 2, to regenerate their P.P.E. at an increased rate along with their I.S.P. when Meditating?

I don't see why not. Mages having Meditation isn't a new concept (not even to PB). Meditation is Meditation, a state of mind that helps recover energies. I don't see a need to differentiate. Adding in a Magical Meditation and a Psychic Meditation seems unnecessarily complicated (especially since in the past no difference was implied). In this case I'd say simple is better. Again ... take that how you will.

Grimlock wrote:4] All Magicians in Rifts: Ultimate Edition have one hour of Meditation count as one hour of sleep, with the exception of the Mystic. One hour of a Mystic's Meditation counts as two hours of sleep. Is this a typo?

I don't know, but it's Mystics and Elemental Fusionists with that note (not just Mystics), don't forget the Fusionists. This could be an oversight, and a carry over from the old Meditation notes from Psychics (such as in PF2). In the missing Psychic sections talking about Meditation it mentioned how it was equal to two hours of sleep. So it's possible that the Elemental Fusionists and the Mystics notes are a carry over (possibly changed to try and discourage the concept that it's better to Meditate than to sleep). I can't say. All I can do is provide the information on this one.

If you want to know how I, personally, would rule it, then what I'd do is follow it as written. I'd carry over the concept of Psychic meditation is equivalent to 2 hours of sleep. This carries over to Mystics as a logical extension, as they are also psychics. As for Elemental Fusionists, I can't explain why, maybe it's some primal attunement to nature. However, if I accept that the Mystic note is intentional, then I have to accept the other is as well. I can't say for sure that's canon, but I believe it's the intent of canon (or as best as I can guess).

Grimlock wrote:Thanks in advance,

:Grim

No problems. I'm always glad to help when I can, and hopefully I did. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Grimlock wrote:You made references above to several instances in previous Rifts titles regarding Meditation, most of which I own or have read. They all state that Meditation is something that all psychics, like mages, know how to do. This has apparently changed, as my opening statements suggest, and I do not believe it was an oversight.

Greetings and Salutations. Glad to know you had the books and checked them before you posted. In posts such as these, I tend to list all available data (unless it's already been noted) because too many don't double check their facts, new and don't have the old books, overlooked something, ignoring information, etc. I'm glad to see that's not the case.

Grimlock wrote:Generally, you refer to the latest title regarding rules on game mechanics and, since Rifts: Ultimate Edition HAS the most recent, revised rules, it is redundant to debate the way the rules were before it was published.

In general, I agree. My main issue here is that RUE doesn't state one way or the other. It leaves it blank. If they made a note that this had to be selected, I'd feel better (and I'll even give an example later in this post). What we have here is a lack of information, so in that case I divert back to the last statement provided. RUE did leave out various information (that's why they had errata, and then still more even after the first batch). While I'd agree in a rules discussion that RUE superceeds the older material, in this case RUE has NO rule whatsoever. Lack of a rule can imply change, but doesn't necessarily mean a change either. That's at least where I stand on the matter.

Grimlock wrote:"Standard Meditation" in this example refers to the rate of I.S.P. recovery listed under the Psionic Power. More powerful Psychics have more effective Meditation rates listed under their powers, such as your Burster example below.

Actually, having done more research on the matter, I don't believe that's what it means at all. In fairness, I don't believe it means what I originally said either. After your response, and talking about the latest books, I didsome more digging and pulled out Beyond the Supernatural Second Edition (BtS2). As a book that focuses on psychic classes and more or less in line with RUE rules, it felt like an ideal place to check. There's a few things to note here:

1: Meditation is not automatic. Note: The power level in BtS2 is drastically different, even with special I.S.P. multipliers depending on situations. While it's good to look at, I wouldn't base a ruling solely on BtS2.

2: The section in RUE discussing psychic combat is very similar to the section in RUE discussing psychic combat. I didn't do a side by side comparison or anything, and the meditation numbers are changed, but as you said Palladium is known for cut & pastes. In BtS2, there's an Advanced Meditation, and it's listed in that same section. Note: The numbers are changed, but it would explain the "standard" term in a more logical way (in my opinion), as that's how it's described in BtS2, with Advanced having different figures.

3: Though BtS2 says it's rare for psychics to start with Meditation, the actual P.C.C. write-ups are often unclear. Considering I didn't miss something, we have 14 classes. 4 definitely start with Meditation, 4 have zero I.S.P. (so no meditation, but that goes without saying), 1 definitively without Meditation to start, and 4 that are just unclear. While saying most don't start with Meditation should make this clear, it sadly doesn't. 2 of the 4 unclear ones are the Ghost Hunter and the Psi-Mechanic. The Ghost Hunter has standard Meditation rates listed, but can't select it and can only select Advanced (no standard options). Then there's the Psi-Mechanic, who can't select any Meditation whatsoever, but can develop a psi-device to simulate Advanced. Note: The Fire Walker has a clear note that they do NOT start with Meditation. This is something that's missing from the other 4 (unknown status) classes, and not included in a single class within RUE.

Note: Splicers also falls into a similar timeline as BtS2 and the newness of the rules, but it doesn't deal with psychics at all which makes it useless for gaining information in this topic.

Grimlock wrote:Your familiarity with Rifts titles is impressive, but your thorough knowledge of Mr. Siembieda's work should mean you understand the attitude on cutting-and-pasting often times practiced by Palladium Books.

I'm probably not as familiar with Rifts as you might think (I don't even play the setting). But I do own the books, and try to research the topic before I post. Though yes, I am familiar with the cut and paste practiced. I'm also familiar with information being left out of books (as you should be as well).

Grimlock wrote:The Burster and Mind Melter were, most-likely, copied from Psyscape; the Dog Boy and Psi-Stalker from Lone Start or Xiticic Invasion.

Mind Melter from Psyscape ... possible, if they went back, edited the format, rewrote parts, and changed bonuses and other factors. I can't say for sure, but the formating's changed, parts have been heavily changed, and some of the bonuses have changed. I'm not buying this one though. Of course, they don't have the meditation note, so really beside the point (they didn't have one in Psyscape either).

Burster from Psyscape ... much more likely. Some editing to format, but from a glance I'm not noticing much difference. Power selection has changed, adding several and removing one. Actually, this one suggests a copy & paste so much that it even still uses the term "R.C.C." in their bonuses. Still, with that said, the one part they definitely updated was the psionic list by adding a lot to that list. Yet, Meditation is NOT one of the updates.

Psi-Stalker from Xiticix Invasion ... I can see the likeliness. I didn't read it all or anything, but looks like it could be a copy/paste with some editing. Their physical attribute bonuses have been drastically changed, but the I.S.P. section is frighteningly similar, and that is what we're discussing.

Note: I got lazy and didn't look up the Dog Boy. I'm only willing to put in so much time and effort here.

Grimlock wrote:However, the Cyber Knight, who was more recently revised in the Siege on Tolkeen series, does refer to Meditation as a separate Psionic Power.

Palladium has always had Meditation listed in the psi-powers, but we'll set that aside for the moment. The Siege of Tolkeen updated the Cyber-Knights (an update reflected more or less in RUE), including the three standard abilities which included Meditation. There's one problem with using this as an example though. SoT4: Cyber-Knights came out in December 2000. Rifts Game Master Guide (RGMG) came out in September 2001. This means RGMG came out AFTER the SoT book, and RGMG still mentions all psychics having Meditation. So any possible perceived change in SoT would be negated by RGMG.

And, as we've already stated, Palladium is well known for its copy & paste, which makes the Meditation note in the Cyber-Knight write-up about as meaningful as the Burster mention (or even less so, since the Burster had its psionic list updated). Since you're dismissing older books, you shouldn't try to use that to prove your point.

Grimlock wrote:There are many contradicting references in Rifts titles, and you can't use these conflicts to prove that the revised Psionics rules in Rifts: Ultimate Edition are incorrect, especially since R:UE should override any existing conflicts.

I didn't say the RUE rules are incorrect. I said I believe there's an ommission, which is different. There's NO rule in RUE that says they don't still get it automatically. I'm of the belief that "the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence."

In RUE we have no statement whatsoever. In BtS2 (which has some of the copy & paste), they made a statement. They were inconsistent in that statement, but they made the statement. They even went so far as to point it out specifically in one of the classes. RUE makes no such attempt.

We have a class with an updated psychic list that does NOT include Meditation, yet it has Meditation times listed. This is a possible copy and paste error, hard to tell.

Grimlock wrote:You mentioned that the way the rules have been written is probably an oversight. I don't think it is, mostly because the Meditation Psionic Power is listed as under the Healing, Physical, AND Sensitive Psionic Power categories.

The addition of it to all those categories is an interesting change. Meditation being included in the psychic list isn't new, but including it in each of the 3 minor categories might be new. This is interesting, and does lend some support to the theory that it's not automatic, but far from conclusive (since it's always been on the list, even when it was clearly automatic, and they just expanded it to the other categories).

Grimlock wrote:The entire section on Psionics in R:UE seems to be newly written for that title; it appears to address, and attempt to override, the conflicts from previous books.

Which part do you think is newly written just for RUE? I'm betting most of that can be found in other books, such as BtS2 (as I mentioned above). If you have another point, I'm willing to look and consider it. Though, newly written makes it just as likely to me to accidently leave something out. A single sentence, such as what they did in BtS2, about it not being automatic would have cleared everything up, and not took up much space.

I can respect your point of view, and even see your logic. I just refuse to call it facts or proof. What I see here is two separate opinions based on a total lack of proof. Anyways, I think that's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.