Forums of the Megaverse®

Assuming the system was sophisticated enough, how long could a liquid nitrogen embryo storage system last without power?

Gazirra wrote:Assuming the system was sophisticated enough, how long could a liquid nitrogen embryo storage system last without power?

Sophistication has nothing to do with it.

The longevity depends entirely on how well insulated it is and how much liquid nitrogen is present. The total amount of time the embryo will remain viable is the amount of time it takes to boil off all the coolant plus the amount of time it then takes for the temperature to raise above whatever the critical temperature threshold is.

I have no idea what the actual numbers would look like.

--flatline

Also to be considered would be the location the system was housed. As in what is the mean temp. of the place.

Gazirra wrote:Assuming the system was sophisticated enough, how long could a liquid nitrogen embryo storage system last without power?

Realistically, the only way it would survive for a significant amount of time is if it is air tight sealed. And if the idea is cryo-storage that lasts 200+ years without maintenance... well realistically I'd give it maybe a decade tops.

Considering that they would need power for the moisture control, maybe a few days.

Korentin_Black wrote:Depends on something though - insulation. Rifts has near-perfect thermal insulation available cheaply, easily and everywhere (which is why even very, very thin MD armour doesn't have you keel over from heat prostration under plasma attack)

I think it is more likely that the authors were either unconsciously or deliberately ignorant of the effect.

--flatline

Still need control of the moisture. A human ovum would be damaged beyond use if any moisture crystalised in the cell structure. All of the insulation in the world is not going to stop condensation during temperature regulation. In that case, you need a system to whisk away the moisture before it damages the ovum. That requires electricity.

Icefalcon wrote:Still need control of the moisture. A human ovum would be damaged beyond use if any moisture crystalised in the cell structure. All of the insulation in the world is not going to stop condensation during temperature regulation. In that case, you need a system to whisk away the moisture before it damages the ovum. That requires electricity.

If it's frozen, how is the moisture going to get inside?

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Icefalcon wrote:Still need control of the moisture. A human ovum would be damaged beyond use if any moisture crystalised in the cell structure. All of the insulation in the world is not going to stop condensation during temperature regulation. In that case, you need a system to whisk away the moisture before it damages the ovum. That requires electricity.

If it's frozen, how is the moisture going to get inside?

--flatline

The system uses liquid nitrogen. Not to mention frozen air particles that melt cause condensation.

flatline wrote:

Icefalcon wrote:Still need control of the moisture. A human ovum would be damaged beyond use if any moisture crystalised in the cell structure. All of the insulation in the world is not going to stop condensation during temperature regulation. In that case, you need a system to whisk away the moisture before it damages the ovum. That requires electricity.

If it's frozen, how is the moisture going to get inside?

--flatline

living tissue is best defined as bags of water surrounded by fat and protein. even as a collection of cells. a cell is watery cytoplasm surrounded by a shell of lipids (fats). the organelles in the cell (mitochodria, nucleus, etc) are just different types of cytoplasm, fats, and protiens.esh

and embyro's cannot be stored except in liquid, otherwise they dry out (destroying it) or break down (destroying it)

so there is already moisture. one of the more difficult bits to storing living tissue is freezing it without the liquid in it's own flesh and cells turning into giant ice crystals and destroying the cells and tissues. this is one of the reasons they replace blood in dead bodies with a kind of antifreeze when they are to be cryogenically preserved. and even then, they take (currently) irreperable damage.

with a cyrogenic storage facility, if the tissues get above 77 kelvin (-169 degree F, or the boiling point of liquid nitrogen), there is increasing odds of the tissues being damaged. and given the rate of heat transfer, even rifts technologies wouldn't give you more than a day or two of leeway before the system gets too warm.. rifts thermal insulation might protect from plasma (which as per WB2 is mostly 'super-napalm', not the true 4th state of matter), but that's only for seconds at a time. the long term heat protection is only good for a few hundred degrees. about the level of a house fire or oven. and even then it is implied it doesn't keep the user perfectly cool, just cool enough to not get burned by the heat transfer.

by the golden age humanity obviously figured out Cryo-hibernation (cooling living beings to a point of near death and reviving them fully intact, though usually the temps involved are much lower, barely below freezing), given the evidence from SB1r, but those systems would only work as long as they have power. since the body would have to be specially prepared prior to hibernation, if they suddenly lost power the people inside would just die (a prepared body can't survive without revival efforts.). presumably there would be automated systems to revive the occupants of the chambers should power levels start dropping gradually, on the basis that an early revival is generally better than death.

Gazirra wrote:Assuming the system was sophisticated enough, how long could a liquid nitrogen embryo storage system last without power?

If you can keep it pressurized, you can keep it indefinitely. Keep in mind that raising the temperature inside would cause pressure to increase and eventually your canister would crack.

kamikazzijoe wrote:

Gazirra wrote:Assuming the system was sophisticated enough, how long could a liquid nitrogen embryo storage system last without power?

If you can keep it pressurized, you can keep it indefinitely. Keep in mind that raising the temperature inside would cause pressure to increase and eventually your canister would crack.

And why do people keep thinking pressure is the answer. Do you really thing a fragile human ovum is going to withstand the kind of pressure that would be need to keep the vat (or whatever container is used) at the proper temperature to keep them viable?

the coolant itself doesn't touch the material, it surrounds the storage container.

and since the whole point of having a coolant is to have a phase transition material to absorb and remove heat, a sealed and pressurized system won't work on its own. you have to have either circulation to take the warmed coolant somewhere it can cool back off, or you have to let it escape and take the heat with it.

glitterboy2098 wrote:the coolant itself doesn't touch the material, it surrounds the storage container. but even a pressurized and sealed system will have thermal transfer and eventually will fail.

I am aware that the coolant itself is not in contact with the material. But when you imagine that it creates pressure in the vessel that does contain the ovum, that vessel will eventually be obliterated by that pressure.

Thermal transfer in machines can only be accomplished with power to the system.

Sorry, you edited before I was finished posting. You explained it much better than I could.

I read over the embryo part of the storage on my first post. But a sophisticated system could use the expansion of the liquid nitrogen to provide power to keep the thing going for days. In this case the liquid N2 is acting as a fuel more so than a coolant. For simplicity sake, I'd say the N2 fuel would last as long as you'd expect a similar amount of gasoline to last.

There was a good article in the economist on a car being built that works on this principle.

kamikazzijoe wrote:I read over the embryo part of the storage on my first post. But a sophisticated system could use the expansion of the liquid nitrogen to provide power to keep the thing going for days. In this case the liquid N2 is acting as a fuel more so than a coolant. For simplicity sake, I'd say the N2 fuel would last as long as you'd expect a similar amount of gasoline to last.

not really. power generated by gas expansion would be insufficent to run the cooling unit. basic thermodynamics (if it was that simple to self power, we'd have perpetual motion generators).


there has been talks about using compressed air to provide motive force for a ground vehicle, but that same vehicle isn't trying to compress air at the same time.

liquid N2 cooling systems use the boil off of the coolant to carry heat away, and then outside power to cool the resulting gas back down to liquid state. trying to power the cooler off the gas expansion would not provide enough power to run the cooler.

and if you vent the gas outright, you don't need to power a cooler, and you'll run out of coolant pretty quick.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

kamikazzijoe wrote:I read over the embryo part of the storage on my first post. But a sophisticated system could use the expansion of the liquid nitrogen to provide power to keep the thing going for days. In this case the liquid N2 is acting as a fuel more so than a coolant. For simplicity sake, I'd say the N2 fuel would last as long as you'd expect a similar amount of gasoline to last.

not really. power generated by gas expansion would be insufficent to run the cooling unit. basic thermodynamics (if it was that simple to self power, we'd have perpetual motion generators).


there has been talks about using compressed air to provide motive force for a ground vehicle, but that same vehicle isn't trying to compress air at the same time.

liquid N2 cooling systems use the boil off of the coolant to carry heat away, and then outside power to cool the resulting gas back down to liquid state. trying to power the cooler off the gas expansion would not provide enough power to run the cooler.

and if you vent the gas outright, you don't need to power a cooler, and you'll run out of coolant pretty quick.

The idea is that the embryo has a different sustain temperature than the N2 so you'd need an active system to maintain the 3 disparate temperatures (room, embryo, and the supercooled N2). Using the temperature difference between the N2 and room, you can power an electric system. Over time the temperature delta between the the N2 and the air would decay reducing the efficiency of your electric generator.

kamikazzijoe wrote:The idea is that the embryo has a different sustain temperature than the N2 so you'd need an active system to maintain the 3 disparate temperatures (room, embryo, and the supercooled N2). Using the temperature difference between the N2 and room, you can power an electric system. Over time the temperature delta between the the N2 and the air would decay reducing the efficiency of your electric generator.

The original posts specifically asks how long the embryo would stay viable without electricity. Finding different ways of generating electricity does not solve this question and is really a moot point.

Icefalcon wrote:

kamikazzijoe wrote:The idea is that the embryo has a different sustain temperature than the N2 so you'd need an active system to maintain the 3 disparate temperatures (room, embryo, and the supercooled N2). Using the temperature difference between the N2 and room, you can power an electric system. Over time the temperature delta between the the N2 and the air would decay reducing the efficiency of your electric generator.

The original posts specifically asks how long the embryo would stay viable without electricity. Finding different ways of generating electricity does not solve this question and is really a moot point.

Since the power is self contained I don't it is moot to the OP. It would not be plugged into the grid and could be as small as a thermos.

Another though would be to rewatch Jurassic Park and see what they said the time limit was on the shaving cream chamber.

you can't self power a cooling unit. yes you can use Seebeck effect systems to pull energy from the thermal differential, but at best you'd only get a few watts of energy. and the cooling system required to keep the thermal differential in this case would use up hundreds of watts. at least two orders of magnitude more than you'd get.
thermoelectric power generation is a waste anytime cooling isn't via passive means.

and the Jurassic park example used insulation and a small supply of liquid nitrogen to keep it cooled, but it worked by letting the Liquid nitrogen boil off from the absorbed heat, which helped take the heat away from the samples. (the container is better detailed in the novel)

glitterboy2098 wrote:you can't self power a cooling unit. yes you can use Seebeck effect systems to pull energy from the thermal differential, but at best you'd only get a few watts of energy. and the cooling system required to keep the thermal differential in this case would use up hundreds of watts. at least two orders of magnitude more than you'd get.
thermoelectric power generation is a waste anytime cooling isn't via passive means.

and the Jurassic park example used insulation and a small supply of liquid nitrogen to keep it cooled, but it worked by letting the Liquid nitrogen boil off from the absorbed heat, which helped take the heat away from the samples. (the container is better detailed in the novel)

You'd only need a few watts. Super cool n2 on one side, small powered valve, semi cool egg chamber. Just enough juice needed to keep the valve opening and closing letting enough N2 into the egg chamber side.

kamikazzijoe wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:you can't self power a cooling unit. yes you can use Seebeck effect systems to pull energy from the thermal differential, but at best you'd only get a few watts of energy. and the cooling system required to keep the thermal differential in this case would use up hundreds of watts. at least two orders of magnitude more than you'd get.
thermoelectric power generation is a waste anytime cooling isn't via passive means.

and the Jurassic park example used insulation and a small supply of liquid nitrogen to keep it cooled, but it worked by letting the Liquid nitrogen boil off from the absorbed heat, which helped take the heat away from the samples. (the container is better detailed in the novel)

You'd only need a few watts. Super cool n2 on one side, small powered valve, semi cool egg chamber. Just enough juice needed to keep the valve opening and closing letting enough N2 into the egg chamber side.

Yet the question of the OP is "How long without power". Coming up with solutions that require power (even if it is only a few watts) is counter-productive.

Icefalcon wrote:

kamikazzijoe wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:you can't self power a cooling unit. yes you can use Seebeck effect systems to pull energy from the thermal differential, but at best you'd only get a few watts of energy. and the cooling system required to keep the thermal differential in this case would use up hundreds of watts. at least two orders of magnitude more than you'd get.
thermoelectric power generation is a waste anytime cooling isn't via passive means.

and the Jurassic park example used insulation and a small supply of liquid nitrogen to keep it cooled, but it worked by letting the Liquid nitrogen boil off from the absorbed heat, which helped take the heat away from the samples. (the container is better detailed in the novel)

You'd only need a few watts. Super cool n2 on one side, small powered valve, semi cool egg chamber. Just enough juice needed to keep the valve opening and closing letting enough N2 into the egg chamber side.

Yet the question of the OP is "How long without power". Coming up with solutions that require power (even if it is only a few watts) is counter-productive.

By without power i assume he means the electric grid, not survives catastrophic system failure.

kamikazzijoe wrote:

Icefalcon wrote:

kamikazzijoe wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:you can't self power a cooling unit. yes you can use Seebeck effect systems to pull energy from the thermal differential, but at best you'd only get a few watts of energy. and the cooling system required to keep the thermal differential in this case would use up hundreds of watts. at least two orders of magnitude more than you'd get.
thermoelectric power generation is a waste anytime cooling isn't via passive means.

and the Jurassic park example used insulation and a small supply of liquid nitrogen to keep it cooled, but it worked by letting the Liquid nitrogen boil off from the absorbed heat, which helped take the heat away from the samples. (the container is better detailed in the novel)

You'd only need a few watts. Super cool n2 on one side, small powered valve, semi cool egg chamber. Just enough juice needed to keep the valve opening and closing letting enough N2 into the egg chamber side.

Yet the question of the OP is "How long without power". Coming up with solutions that require power (even if it is only a few watts) is counter-productive.

By without power i assume he means the electric grid, not survives catastrophic system failure.

Without power means no electricity whatsoever. There is no more explicit way of interpreting the that statement.