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I suppose it depends on how you define "power".

I generally consider the Temporal Wizard to be the most generically powerful spell caster. Before RUE, they started with more PPE than the Ley Line Walker (it's up to the GM to decide what, if any, modifications should be allowed to the Temporal Wizard to bring it into a RUE-era game). Can start with any regular invocations they want (technically that even includes spells of legend if your GM doesn't veto it). Can figure out spells of any level when leveling up. Have access to some fantastically useful temporal magic spells. Have slightly better spell power than other casters. Start with lots of money and a familiarity with a handful of dimensions.

None of these advantages are particularly significant by themselves (with the exception of access to Talisman at 1st level), but having them all together in a single OCC can make a big difference in the early and mid game.

A close second would be the Diabolist (caveat: I don't know if the Diabolist was changed significantly in Fantasy 2nd editon. I only have 1e-revised and CB1). They take lots of patience and planning, but are capable of tremendous effects.

Demi-gods or Godlings with Warlock abilities, especially if they are a also a caster of another kind, are capable of some truly astounding acts of power once they hit mid level. The most powerful character I've ever made (by my standards, at least) was a Temporal Wizard demi-god with Air-Earth Warlock powers. At 5th level and beyond, his access to PPE is limited only by how fast he can summon elemental fragments.

Depending on the latitude the GM is willing to grant, a Conjurer armed with a knowledge of physics and chemistry is amazingly capable, although it's not clear how such knowledge interacts with the MDC universe (how much damage does an ounce of plutonium do when detonated or inhaled? how does real acid affect MDC armor or supernaturally tough skin? The books provide no useful guidance...oh, how I hate MDC...).

I know you asked for the top 5, but this is all I can come up with. There are some powerful magic OCCs from the Federation of Magic book, but I don't like any of them, so I never really bothered to learn enough about them to figure out where they would be ranked by power.

If you're looking for a more combat oriented class, Temporal Warriors and Mystic Knights are both extremely capable. I prefer Temporal Warriors because they have access to Temporal Magic and have the ability to purchase spells opportunistically.

--flatline

I agree with Flatline

There is a Spacial mage who is pretty awesome in one of the early rifters, Rifter number 3 i think.



I would have to go with


Temporal Wizard
Spacial Mage
Smoker (from manhunter)
Battle Magus
And a toss up between Leyline walker and Shifter

Witches might make a way up their if played right

Warlocks for the average Race starts out pretty limited in my opinion.

Either the Summoner or the Astral Mage.

Summoners can summon things which are wizards or diabolists (Raksasha) and get them to teach them those magical forms too.

Astral Mages can create omnipotent realms.

most powerful....?

The Mystic Study mage is 'the best' mage type because of it's flexibility in what spells they start with. To make them powerful....depends on which spells you select. they can be a power controller mage (charm, dominate charismatic aura, etc...) or go combat magic, or be a JoAT mage.

A 'Wizard Supreme' immortal from PU2 would be the most high powered mage char type I can think of.

As for most of the Race & class combos it would be the demigod w/ magic power, but would have the class as something non-magic.

without digging for obscure and forgotten OCC's, my vote has to be for the shifter, full stop.

Why? because not only are good versitle casters, which a terrific starting spell list, a lot of spells per level up, able to travel nearly at will, and get the ability to learn temporal magic at 10th level, but they can summon creatures that can do...well pretty much anything. the right selection of supernatural familiars and the shifter is a force unto themselves. They don't NEED a pact to be top of the pack, but if you feel the need, there's that too. and those can open up entirely new schools of magic

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:most powerful....?

The Mystic Study mage is 'the best' mage type because of it's flexibility in what spells they start with. To make them powerful....depends on which spells you select. they can be a power controller mage (charm, dominate charismatic aura, etc...) or go combat magic, or be a JoAT mage.

A 'Wizard Supreme' immortal from PU2 would be the most high powered mage char type I can think of.

As for most of the Race & class combos it would be the demigod w/ magic power, but would have the class as something non-magic.

The wizard supreme was going to be my bet, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized a well-picked pack of greater and lesser supernatural minions simply can't be topped, especially since some picks for possible minions can threaten a mega hero by themselves.

Panomas wrote:Leyline walker is (to me) the most studied caster-

therefore most potentially powerful-

Unfortunately, shifters can learn all the same stuff LLW can, plus minions, plus pact. it's really unfair.

Lord Magus.

Panomas wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Panomas wrote:Leyline walker is (to me) the most studied caster-

therefore most potentially powerful-

Unfortunately, shifters can learn all the same stuff LLW can, plus minions, plus pact. it's really unfair.

DSKauai wrote: The catch? The list can't include Shifter, Necromancer, Inuit Shaman, Techno-Wizard or Obsidian Spell Thief. Additionally, nothing along the lines of demons, alien intelligences, elementals and the like.

I was honoring the OPs request to exclude the Shifter-

Missed that somehow

DSKauai wrote:

The wizard supreme was going to be my bet, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized a well-picked pack of greater and lesser supernatural minions simply can't be topped, especially since some picks for possible minions can threaten a mega hero by themselves.

Huh. I'm not even sure what a Wizard Supreme is. Guess I need to be reading up on my books.

I was looking, and if I step outside of my original restrictions, a godling with two selections of Magic could be pretty devastating. You know two different "brands" of magic, you get every spell at that level each time you level? That's pretty brutal.

Or a demi-god with a magic OCC who selects as his demi-god power the powers of another magic OCC. Temporal Wizard plus warlock is my current favorite.

--flatline

That's not really an OCC though flat... though OP did put 'RCC' in title for some reason.

I think people are seriously underestimating the power of astral mages though...

Do Shifter's new minion powers (are these from RUE, MoM, DC, similar to Mystic Russia?) exceed Summoner's now or something?

Tor wrote:That's not really an OCC though flat... though OP did put 'RCC' in title for some reason.

I think people are seriously underestimating the power of astral mages though...

Do Shifter's new minion powers (are these from RUE, MoM, DC, similar to Mystic Russia?) exceed Summoner's now or something?

No one underestimates Astral mages really. they have the ultimate home-turf advantage. and if you never go to their home, which in fact you'd have to go out of your way to do, they arn't really worse than normal mages. Playing god in your realm is awsome, but not very impressive for everyone not living in it. which is almost everyone else.

Anyway, Shifters first get minion-summoning powers in Dark conversions, and this power was later modified and updated in RUE.

And no, Shifters minion-summoning power is about even. Their battle of wills is vs MA instead of ME. They get an efficency boost as they don't need specific ingridents/sacrafises to summon things. and they get to control about the same number of minions (8 lesser or 4 greater by level 15, or some combination thereof).

However, the point is they get that in addition to being mages with a massive PPE reserve, a large and useful starting spell list, learning lots of spells as they level, able to learn more anytime, gain the ability to learn temporal magic at higher levels AND easy travel with new mini-rift powers that are cheep to make.

I am pretty sure that summoners may get a few more minions, but the ability to use magic and temporal magic freely more than compensates.

From an OCC view for me it is the Temporal Wizard

From a RCC view it is the Lizard Mage (has at least 2 magical OCCs) or Godling who selected 3 magical classes.

Ice Dragon wrote:From an OCC view for me it is the Temporal Wizard

From a RCC view it is the Lizard Mage (has at least 2 magical OCCs) or Godling who selected 3 magical classes.

Completely agree with Ice Dragon. No question in my mind here. Personally I think the Lizard Mage is overlooked and underutilized as an antagonist for Rifts or Palladium Fantasy adventures. A Lizard Mage with the magical OCC's of Temporal Wizard and Techno-Wizard (knows the secrets of Rune magic as described in the original Conversion Book 1) is an terrible enemy to be at odds with. Just the thought of Temporal Techno-Wizardry/Rune items makes me get all tingly inside. LOL

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:most powerful....?

The Mystic Study mage is 'the best' mage type because of it's flexibility in what spells they start with. To make them powerful....depends on which spells you select. they can be a power controller mage (charm, dominate charismatic aura, etc...) or go combat magic, or be a JoAT mage.

A 'Wizard Supreme' immortal from PU2 would be the most high powered mage char type I can think of.

As for most of the Race & class combos it would be the demigod w/ magic power, but would have the class as something non-magic.

The wizard supreme was going to be my bet, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized a well-picked pack of greater and lesser supernatural minions simply can't be topped, especially since some picks for possible minions can threaten a mega hero by themselves.

There are two paths to power: "Superman" individual power, or "Lex Luthor" organizational power.

I was stating for the individual power branch of the question.

Most Powerful magic class?
That would depend on your definition of power...
each class has its Strengths and Weaknesses.

The Harvester. Hands down.

IF you're willing to do the incredibly evil things they do to first gain and then maintain/increase their powers.

They seriously make even Necromancers look like Priests of Light by comparison.

Buttloads of PPE from harvested souls, buttloads of extra SDC, potentially supernatural strength, mystic-like spells granted level by level from Nxla, and bonus spells that can be learned at any time -and kept indefinitely -based on which Mages' souls the Harvester decides to keep.


On top of all that, if you can successfully get Nxla to physically manifest in your dimension, he'll reward you with immortality!

That's one hell of a deal.........if you're willing to make a deal with something even worse than Hell itself.

cornholioprime wrote:The Harvester. Hands down.

IF you're willing to do the incredibly evil things they do to first gain and then maintain/increase their powers.

They seriously make even Necromancers look like Priests of Light by comparison.

Buttloads of PPE from harvested souls, buttloads of extra SDC, potentially supernatural strength, mystic-like spells granted level by level from Nxla, and bonus spells that can be learned at any time -and kept indefinitely -based on which Mages' souls the Harvester decides to keep.


On top of all that, if you can successfully get Nxla to physically manifest in your dimension, he'll reward you with immortality!

That's one hell of a deal.........if you're willing to make a deal with something even worse than Hell itself.

They're actually a varient of Necromancer, and Necromancers are barred, otherwise they were my first thought too

Nekira Sudacne wrote:No one underestimates Astral mages really. they have the ultimate home-turf advantage. and if you never go to their home, which in fact you'd have to go out of your way to do, they arn't really worse than normal mages. Playing god in your realm is awsome, but not very impressive for everyone not living in it. which is almost everyone else.

Ah, but if an Astral Mage has a summoning circle in his realm, he can bring friends in to play. Or actually, since spells can be built into the realm, they can create dimensional portals every minute to bring in new friends.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Shifters first get minion-summoning powers in Dark conversions, and this power was later modified and updated in RUE.

I recall that the minions a Night Witch get in Mystic Russia has a note that this can apply to Shifters too. I think it requires sacrificing PPE to get a minion, so that may supplement RUE, though I assume RUE replaces DC material.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Their battle of wills is vs MA instead of ME.

This reminds me of how the 'summon greater familiar' spell used to work. Didn't that get changed from MA to ME as well?

cornholioprime wrote:The Harvester.

They have a lot of potential but are very tricky.

For exampel, being unable to be psychic and do the harvesting ritual kinda sucks. As does having every psychic you encounter hate your guts without knowing why (until they look a little closer)

cornholioprime wrote:Buttloads of PPE from harvested souls, buttloads of extra SDC, potentially supernatural strength

Still, finding the ideal souls and getting that ritual together is a LOT of work. How do we even know whether or not stabbing someone's eyes will kill them?

While there's technically nothing outruling absorbing the souls of non-psychic greater demons, I question what would be an adequate eye-poke to end their life.

cornholioprime wrote:if you can successfully get Nxla to physically manifest in your dimension, he'll reward you with immortality!

That may not be what you think it is. Keep in mind that the Soulless Xombies are effectively immortal. Even if you keep your wits intact, is probably just indefinite lifespan and not unkillability.

If we take the approach in D*G that AIs have deific powers, perhaps it would be through use of the immortality curse. Seems up Nxla's alley.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:They're actually a varient of Necromancer

I noticed Psyscape failed to include an XP table for Harvesters, could I swing this 'necro variant' concept to mean that they use the necro table?

Otherwise the only way I can think of to play a Harvester is playing one who is a demigod since the demigod table overrides OCC tables

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:The Harvester. Hands down.

IF you're willing to do the incredibly evil things they do to first gain and then maintain/increase their powers.

They seriously make even Necromancers look like Priests of Light by comparison.

Buttloads of PPE from harvested souls, buttloads of extra SDC, potentially supernatural strength, mystic-like spells granted level by level from Nxla, and bonus spells that can be learned at any time -and kept indefinitely -based on which Mages' souls the Harvester decides to keep.


On top of all that, if you can successfully get Nxla to physically manifest in your dimension, he'll reward you with immortality!

That's one hell of a deal.........if you're willing to make a deal with something even worse than Hell itself.

They're actually a varient of Necromancer, and Necromancers are barred, otherwise they were my first thought too

Good point.

Your Honor, please strike my testimony from the record.

To elaborate why I put forward Lord Magi.

In no particular order they can eventually gain: Bio-regeneration, supernatural PS, the ability to become invisible at will, see the invisible, double range & duration of spells, a significant PPE boost, immunity to possession & illusions, a bonus to spell strength, dramatically extended lifespan, transformation from SDC to MDC creatures, an additional magic attack each round, plus several more benefits that are not coming to mind at the moment.

With the only real drawback being an increased vulnerability to silver and iron and a lack of high level spells.

The lack of high level spells is unfortunate, but powers comes in many forms, not just being able to cast a couple expensive spells before exhausting your PPE.

The High Magus (creator) is better than the Lord Magus

Tor wrote:The High Magus (creator) is better than the Lord Magus

They're both flawed in similar ways. One gives up the utility of low level spells, the other gives up the utility of high level spells.

--flatline

Astral Mage.
If their Astral Realm is in the outer plane, time goes much faster there. If they spend a week or so in real time in their Astral Realm, they can teach themselves every spell known to man and whatever variants they come up with (NB WB3 Rules).
In a week they go from nothing to the rivals of the most learned casters in the Megaverse, in that same week, other casters are unlikely to improve much at all.

Giant2005 wrote:Astral Mage.
If their Astral Realm is in the outer plane, time goes much faster there. If they spend a week or so in real time in their Astral Realm, they can teach themselves every spell known to man and whatever variants they come up with (NB WB3 Rules).
In a week they go from nothing to the rivals of the most learned casters in the Megaverse, in that same week, other casters are unlikely to improve much at all.

Can they protect themselves from aging?

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:Astral Mage.
If their Astral Realm is in the outer plane, time goes much faster there. If they spend a week or so in real time in their Astral Realm, they can teach themselves every spell known to man and whatever variants they come up with (NB WB3 Rules).
In a week they go from nothing to the rivals of the most learned casters in the Megaverse, in that same week, other casters are unlikely to improve much at all.

Can they protect themselves from aging?

--flatline

Nothing ages in the Astral Realm, most Astral Mages and Lords refuse to leave their realms because of the aging process outside.

Gypsy Wizard-Thief out of Mystic Russia is one of my personal favorites. They focus on all the awesome magic and combine that with the skills of a safecracker / locksmith / cyber-jacker.

I don't think this OCC gets much recognition -- probably because you can basically turn a LLW into one with certain skill selections. I just always loved the flare of the gypsy. Kinda like Val Kilmer in "The Saint" -- only more Gypsier...and Russian.

I can't believe nobody mentioned the Ludicrous mage.

Looonatic wrote:I can't believe nobody mentioned the Ludicrous mage.

Never heard of it nor does it appear in the OCCs listed in the GMG. Is it from a Rifter?

--flatline

A High Magus who switches to Lord Magus once he's learned his Temporal spells...

Magic Battle colossus, ridiculous spells, enhanced attributes & MDC body (eventually), 1/5th aging, lots of skills, can buy spells as a LLW if he sees one he doesn't know already (unlikely).

Top that off with a race that starts with a lot of SDC such as the Blucie, (PEx10 HP) + (2d4x10 +40 SDC) +2D6 HP/LVL

A little crazy IMO, and requires the co-operation of the 3 leaders of Dwoemer.

flatline wrote:They're both flawed in similar ways. One gives up the utility of low level spells, the other gives up the utility of high level spells.

Yeah but the Creator's automatons are so much cooler than the Lord Magus' 'creature of magic' silliness.

Giant2005 wrote:Nothing ages in the Astral Realm, most Astral Mages and Lords refuse to leave their realms because of the aging process outside.

To be more specific: you don't age if you've changed into astral form, which is what happens if you enter there using Astral Transference (or some other means like a dimensional portal).

If you astrally project, your physical body left behind on earth would obviously still age.

There is also an option for astral realms where people who go into it turn into flesh and blood rather than being astral. If that was done, people could age in the astral plane.

Hot Rod wrote:A High Magus who switches to Lord Magus once he's learned his Temporal spells...

One reason Lord Magi suck: becoming a Creature of Magic who is MDC doesn't really allow you to do that the other way around.

A High Magus is much better off training as a Controller than a Lord Magus though

Regarding the differences between Shifters and Summoners. We have played it as the Shifter having less precision on initial summonings, having to poke around until he got what he liked, or learning from travels, the air elemental plane is reached, now to figure out how to summon something I can control. Whereas a Summoner has a more specific touch, when he wants a Alu Demon, he knows the way to summon it, and having started off with all the summining circles can grab pretty much anything.

The Shifters do get travel and spell abilities, where the Summoners get Protection and Power circles. Played well, both are quite powerful, but both have drawbacks.

X'Zanthar wrote:Regarding the differences between Shifters and Summoners. We have played it as the Shifter having less precision on initial summonings, having to poke around until he got what he liked, or learning from travels, the air elemental plane is reached, now to figure out how to summon something I can control. Whereas a Summoner has a more specific touch, when he wants a Alu Demon, he knows the way to summon it, and having started off with all the summining circles can grab pretty much anything.

The Shifters do get travel and spell abilities, where the Summoners get Protection and Power circles. Played well, both are quite powerful, but both have drawbacks.

This seems an interesting way to play it. While the shifter always opens a communication rift with a potential summon before letting it through, demons, well, often lie to get what they want and can deceive the shifter into letting the wrong thing come in.

This says nothing of the myriad beings on rifts earth that can arbitrarily change a rifts destination just because they feel like screwing with some uppity mortal.

X'Zanthar wrote:a Summoner has a more specific touch, when he wants a Alu Demon, he knows the way to summon it

I'm a bit confused on this issue: while shifters do start of with 'summon lesser demon' circle, to specify a specific type, you need to know the name of that type. Is it specified that summoners know how to make their circles more specific in this way?

Especially in cases of rare species, like the Nexus Deevils or Ice Wraith Deevils not known to venture outside Dyval, I wonder if a Summoner would know how to specify them via Summon Lesser Deevil.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:While the shifter always opens a communication rift with a potential summon before letting it through, demons, well, often lie to get what they want and can deceive the shifter into letting the wrong thing come in.

They do have unique dilemmas. The shifter can communicate before rifting in the creature, but can be lied to in the communications. The summoner must rift in the creature before communicating with it, yet the creature can not lie while within the confines of the original circle.

TLR wrote:(ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp - or what's a Heaven for?)

This is my attitude when gaming. I've never played a character that didn't want to accomplish great things.

--flatline

Off the top of my head;
Lord Magus, High Magus, Death Knight, Temporal Wizard, Gypsy Wizard Thief. Wouldn't even put Shifter or Necromancer in that same conversation. Technowizard's might be on that list if you didn't call them out, there's room for discussion there.

I'm curious, why did you put Gypsy Wizard Theif on there?

Cinos wrote:Off the top of my head;
Lord Magus, High Magus, Death Knight, Temporal Wizard, Gypsy Wizard Thief. Wouldn't even put Shifter or Necromancer in that same conversation. Technowizard's might be on that list if you didn't call them out, there's room for discussion there.

Im curius why you think the gypsy wizard is beyond the pale compared to the shifter? The shifter gets pacts , summoning, and i belive more ppe.

Zamion138 wrote:

Cinos wrote:Off the top of my head;
Lord Magus, High Magus, Death Knight, Temporal Wizard, Gypsy Wizard Thief. Wouldn't even put Shifter or Necromancer in that same conversation. Technowizard's might be on that list if you didn't call them out, there's room for discussion there.

Im curius why you think the gypsy wizard is beyond the pale compared to the shifter? The shifter gets pacts , summoning, and i belive more ppe.

The immense utility of their spells and skills is pretty massive. You can just pull of dumb things. It's like getting to have two entire classes that operate in complete discreetness without external minions trying to screw things up out of spite. When you have a pact or a summoned minion (or any minion really), you invite yourself to GM control over those minions, for better or worse, which is an element of chance and chaos within your character. While that's great for RPing reasons, if you're talking straight vacuum power, it's a huge liability.

What book would I find the Gypsy Wizard Thief in?

--flatline

flatline wrote:What book would I find the Gypsy Wizard Thief in?

--flatline

Ngr1

flatline wrote:What book would I find the Gypsy Wizard Thief in?

--flatline

New German Republic 1, in with the other Gypsy stuff.

Cinos wrote:

Zamion138 wrote:

Cinos wrote:Off the top of my head;
Lord Magus, High Magus, Death Knight, Temporal Wizard, Gypsy Wizard Thief. Wouldn't even put Shifter or Necromancer in that same conversation. Technowizard's might be on that list if you didn't call them out, there's room for discussion there.

Im curius why you think the gypsy wizard is beyond the pale compared to the shifter? The shifter gets pacts , summoning, and i belive more ppe.

The immense utility of their spells and skills is pretty massive. You can just pull of dumb things. It's like getting to have two entire classes that operate in complete discreetness without external minions trying to screw things up out of spite. When you have a pact or a summoned minion (or any minion really), you invite yourself to GM control over those minions, for better or worse, which is an element of chance and chaos within your character. While that's great for RPing reasons, if you're talking straight vacuum power, it's a huge liability.

I think I have to disagree. If you play a shfiter that refuses to summon anything, you are left with what's still one of the most powerful OCC's in the game with a wide varaity of magic to chose from, a lot of PPE, insanely easy travel and the coveted ability to access temporal spells at high levels.

The gypsy theif, by contrast, is a cut down ley line walker. it's true, he starts with some useful magic the ley line walker can't start with at first level, the problem is they all learn from the same spell list, so by level 6 or so their spell lists will look pretty identical, sinse the ley line walker will be naturally trying to get the same utility spells anyway while the gypsy theif is biased to remaining a one-trick pony AND he has less than half they ley line walkers PPE to do it with. considering using invisibility ect. to sneak into places usually requires multiple castings, it means the ley line walker ca do the same gig, for longer, AND have more combat options in case the **** hits the fan.

Skill wise, i'm not really impressed. OCC wise, the gypsy wizard gets streatwise, palming and pick pockets with modest bonus's, as well as dancing, play musical instruemnt and the secret gypsy language (utterly useless if there are no other gypsy's around and there basically never is). Ley Line walker, by contrast, has land navigation, wilderness survival, a pilot skill and four lores of choice. that is HUGE, it means you can basically know something about pretty much whatever the GM throws at you.

And on other skills, the gypsy wizard theif gets five OOC related skills and two secondary skills for seven total, with a decent selection to choose from. however the ley line walker gets seven OCC related skills and six secondary skills at first level for eleven. that means the ley line walker can start with every skill the gypsy wizard theif starts with, including the ones from the OCC itself, and still have some leftover. they also have a slight edge with an extra OCC related skill as they level.

All that's on top of the ley line walkers natural ability to draw double from ley lines, ley line free recharging armor AND the power to meditate for 48 hours on a ley line at every level to learn af ree ley line or rift magic, which allows them access to high level spells starting by level 2 on their own, in addition to the free spell per level both get.

I'm sorry, I gotta disagree. it's true the gypsy wizard theif has a more useful starting spell list, but in every other way the ley line walker is superior, and by mid level the advantage in starting spells has vanished as both spell lists start to look alike, leaving the ley line walker with the edge in every single area. the only things the gypsy theif has the ley line walker can never get are the forgery and disguise skills. these are indeed useful, but not enough to tip the tide considering they can learn spells that provide perfect disguises (metamorph human, superior), and i've never played a game where the forgery skill was needed once (in the once or twice the group ever needed a forgery, it was far easier to buy one than wait for him to make the absurdly low roll)

So you don't find use for Forgery, but find Ley Lines all the time? And 6th level is pushing the half point of the entire leveling curve, so being better until 6th is a pretty big deal. And how well does that Metamorph work against dog boys or anything with Sense Magic? Not super well I'd wager. The thing is that the Gypsy's skills fall back in situations where their spells are impractical and gives them an innate counter to the things that normally counter anti-magic tech in terms of stealth spells.

Cinos wrote:So you don't find use for Forgery, but find Ley Lines all the time? And 6th level is pushing the half point of the entire leveling curve, so being better until 6th is a pretty big deal. And how well does that Metamorph work against dog boys or anything with Sense Magic? Not super well I'd wager. The thing is that the Gypsy's skills fall back in situations where their spells are impractical and gives them an innate counter to the things that normally counter anti-magic tech in terms of stealth spells.

Ill give you usefull and maybe great for game play, but when comparing most powerfull mages i dont see them as upper escalation. Admittedly though have never ran one and only seen one in play on a short lived play by post game.

Rcc wise as the op said i think lizard mage,temporal raider ,flying turtel, alot of the dragons and godling are my upper area of power off the top of my head.

Cinos wrote:So you don't find use for Forgery, but find Ley Lines all the time?

Not ALL the time, but with reasonable frequency. enough it definatly comes in handy, as opposed to forgery, which has never come in handy. i'm not saying we never needed a forgery, i'm saying it seems to always be faster to buy it than to wait for the party member with the skill to try to pass the abursdly hard roll.

And 6th level is pushing the half point of the entire leveling curve, so being better until 6th is a pretty big deal.

Not really. you start hitting levels 4 and 5 after just a few months of regular playing and level six within six months. after that, it's a few years of playing at the medium to high levels. I've played in several games that lasted 2-3 years and one for 7 years and counting. the low levels blow by pretty fast, after that the difference between classes become clear, and apparent, because if you picked the frontended class, you got to outshine the others for a little while, then spend years being behind the curve.

And how well does that Metamorph work against dog boys or anything with Sense Magic? Not super well I'd wager.

it works as well as any other magic, really. at which point both classes are down to skills, and as I said, the ley line walker just has them beat. the ley line walker can have every skill the gypsy wizard does for sneaking around and more besides.

Or just use mystic invisibility spell, which either can learn, at which point dog boys become absolutely useless

The thing is that the Gypsy's skills fall back in situations where their spells are impractical and gives them an innate counter to the things that normally counter anti-magic tech in terms of stealth spells.

You seem to be conviently ignoring the part where I pointed out the ley line walker can have all the same skills with the exception of disguise and forgery and, again, because they come up so rarely the much more consistantly useful ley line walker powers just outshine the gypsy wizard thief. One is trivially duplicated with magic, the other is actually easier to buy than to DIY, so moot.

It might be a difference of perspective. if you don't play games that reach mid to high levels, then front-ended classes are always better. I've played games where a juicer would have actually died of old age, so what I value is very much long-term growth over being the best at first level.

I submitted the Gypsy Wizard-Thief because, as I mentioned in my first post, it's basically a LLW with some other skills and a lot of "flare." Is it going to be as powerful as the Shifter? Not in the short (maybe) OR long term but the query, as outlined by the original post, barred certain spell-casting classes, like Shifter.

Personally, I liked the "out of the gate" initial spell-selection and the skill-access. I kinda described my Gypsy Wizard-Thief like Val Kilmer in the Saint...only more Russian (see initial post...hehe!)

As an aside, however, I'll revise my choice based on some recent developments in Zyanitevp and Zenviscape's game -- Air Warlock is one of the most powerful casting classes allowable by the original post's guidelines. *wink*

Witchcraft wrote:I submitted the Gypsy Wizard-Thief because, as I mentioned in my first post, it's basically a LLW with some other skills and a lot of "flare."

Oh i'm not saying the style is bad, but when someone asks "most powerful", I feel one should ignore style in favor of substance, and honestly I feel their low PPE roll is faily cripling.

Is it going to be as powerful as the Shifter? Not in the short (maybe) OR long term but the query, as outlined by the original post, barred certain spell-casting classes, like Shifter.

which is why I was drawing comparisons to the ley line walker, which IS allowed, and which I beleive i've demonstrated marketly outclass their gypsy knockoff.

Personally, I liked the "out of the gate" initial spell-selection and the skill-access. I kinda described my Gypsy Wizard-Thief like Val Kilmer in the Saint...only more Russian (see initial post...hehe!)

Oh don't get me wrong, they DO have that going for them. but over time i've learned to disregard "out of the gate" power as a factor in my class selections. that advantage only lasts a few months out of several years of game, it's not a bonus, it's a newbie trap. now, it seems relativly common for games to end around mid-level for various reasons, but if you ever picked one and the game lasts for 3 or 5 /years/ of weekly gaming, you'll see what I mean.

Put it this way, and answer me honestly: say you are playing a gypsy theif and someone else in the party is playing a full ley line walker who happens to be a gypsy. both of you focus on stealth, conning, and deceipt. do you honestly feel you will have a marked advantage still by level 4? level 6? level 8? the full LLW gypsy is going to beat you at your own game eventually.

As an aside, however, I'll revise my choice based on some recent developments in Zyanitevp and Zenviscape's game -- Air Warlock is one of the most powerful casting classes allowable by the original post's guidelines. *wink*

Oh, warlocks are definatly one of those vastly underestimated classes

Witchcraft wrote:As an aside, however, I'll revise my choice based on some recent developments in Zyanitevp and Zenviscape's game -- Air Warlock is one of the most powerful casting classes allowable by the original post's guidelines. *wink*

I considered adding the Warlock to my picks as well, it's got huge potential but they vary a lot based on group, and I made my post in like 30 seconds and didn't feel like expanding too much.

Nekira you have me at a loss. *admits defeat*

You're absolutely right. The Ley Line Walker with an affectation for the subversive and a proclivity for the "stealthy" is absolutely better equipped than the gypsy for the long haul. There's no question.

All things being equal: A LLW with Chameleon, Globe of Silence, Cloak of Shadows, Invisibility (all its forms), Teleport: Lesser, telekinesis, Escape, and all the stealthy stuff we referenced is basically the same class with a two-skill variance and a truckload more PPE.

As for the Air Warlock -- they have more versatility in spell-selection than any of the other warlock variants. Darkness, Silence, Globe of True Daylight, Calm Storm, Breath of Life (Res), Invisibility, Leaf Rustler/Phantom Footman/Phantom/Phantom Mount, Wind Rush, Wind Blast, Shoot Hay, Chain Lightning, and look at the Fulminations in Library of Bletherad! I like to think of them as INFINITE COSMIC POWER...itty-bitty living space.