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It seems like one of the biggest controversies in this part of the board is canon. I refer of course to the Siege on Tolkeen. Some people love it, other people hate it. Everyone is entitled to personal preference and everyone's game is going to be unique.

But that said...

The reason I like canon and would prefer a crappy canon gun (no pun intended) over my super sweet Operator Munch 6000 Pistol (Now with auto-dodge compensation technology), is because I love the feel of the game and I love being able to use material I paid for. Right now, I could close the books I've purchased and never open another Palladium Book and still run a weekly game but I love the material in the books and I love the canon.

It is my opinion that nothing has happened within the canon Megaverse that is so preposterous as to be completely unfeasible and from what I have seen MOST of the outcomes result in events that give the reader MORE story options and MORE freedom within their game. I mean sure, Tolkeen exploded and now the Coalition march the streets like Stormtroopers and seize women and children and put them to work in sweat shops or slave camps... and yeah... it is freaking terrible! But it is also a lot of potential stories for your characters. Don't you agree?

I certainly think so. I think that there are a lot more stories helping the survivors of Tolkeen or fighting for the dwindling Tolkeen resistance than there are had they won and countered the CS advance, but that might just be me.

Anyway putting Tolkeen aside, I also think there is something neat about the art and being able to show the other players "this is my character's gun" or "I have one of these hover tanks, except mine has a red racing striping on it!" and whereas I can imagine cooler things, I like the canon stuff. It seems more balanced and in check with the setting over custom machinations, magic or machinery.

I just wanted to express that and get it off my chest and put it out there. I know a lot of you will not agree and think I am just a pro-Palladium nutcase that loves everything they do but I assure you that is not the case. Its just in my experience they only use material that is worthwhile or interesting. Heck, with the exception of the Splicers core rule book I have never read a Palladium Book that didn't wow me and leave me thinking of all the infinite possibilities. So I don't NEED to go outside the canon to play the game I like. I want to be apart of the Rifts setting and when I play I want to experience RIFTS!

I understand your reasoning. So am not writing this as 'you are wrong'. Just playing devil's advocate (and in my Rifts game, Tolkeen lost and the party spent their first 5 or so adventures escorting a group of refugees to Colorado.

So... Canon is good, Canon is great, except when it isn't. PB has retconned a lot of game things. Some are small and can be easily updated, but some are not and a character concept (or even OCC) could be changed enough to alter things beyond what a GM and his players want.

Cases in point: I played 1st ed PFRPG extensively for many years with the same characters. Only a few areas were defined (Timero, Yin-sloth, Wolfen Empire, and Bizantium). I had Ophid Grasslands as an area similar to the great plains and set up cultures there like Native American tribes. In 2nd edition it is stated to be tundra. Do I force this on my game world because it is 'canon' or do I diverge? I know I could come up with 100 ways to make it so, but do I like them? Do I want them?

Updating the Palladin from 1st to 2nd could be 'your virtuous deeds have sparked the interest of a divine being' and you give the character a reason why he got his demon death blow. But the druid was changed so radically, do you force the player to change his character? Do you make him start another?

Lucky for me, when I got RUE, I wanted a new campaign and not use our old characters. So the Cyber-knight's anti-tech powers didn't bother me. But if I was playing a cyberknight from the RMB, I could see it as a shock. "What I went from anti-evil to anti-tech? huh?".

Lastly. As a player I dislike knowing things beyond my character. If I am not a mage, I do not read the magic system. if I am not a gun guy, I don't read about guns. If my character learns later, I'll devour those sections, but my mind is such I will ruin my own fun by knowing. I will suggest to players what to do (because I will know the rules better), and possibly ruin their fun too. But certain games, my group knows forwards and backwards. Settings, powers, skills, monster stat blocks. Nothing is a mystery. nothing is unknown. If they have never played Rifts, I would throw them into Rifts canon. If they know Rifts backwards and forwards, I will change some things. Keep them on their toes and make it so they can't read a stat block and know what to expect.
i.e. First time they fought Vampires, they were very surprised by their immunity to fire (having WoD experience). After a while they understood PB vampires. Then, to throw a loop next campaign, dropped the water hurt thing and made fire hurt them.

ZorValachan wrote:I understand your reasoning. So am not writing this as 'you are wrong'. Just playing devil's advocate (and in my Rifts game, Tolkeen lost and the party spent their first 5 or so adventures escorting a group of refugees to Colorado.

So... Canon is good, Canon is great, except when it isn't. PB has retconned a lot of game things. Some are small and can be easily updated, but some are not and a character concept (or even OCC) could be changed enough to alter things beyond what a GM and his players want.

Cases in point: I played 1st ed PFRPG extensively for many years with the same characters. Only a few areas were defined (Timero, Yin-sloth, Wolfen Empire, and Bizantium). I had Ophid Grasslands as an area similar to the great plains and set up cultures there like Native American tribes. In 2nd edition it is stated to be tundra. Do I force this on my game world because it is 'canon' or do I diverge? I know I could come up with 100 ways to make it so, but do I like them? Do I want them?

Updating the Palladin from 1st to 2nd could be 'your virtuous deeds have sparked the interest of a divine being' and you give the character a reason why he got his demon death blow. But the druid was changed so radically, do you force the player to change his character? Do you make him start another?

Lucky for me, when I got RUE, I wanted a new campaign and not use our old characters. So the Cyber-knight's anti-tech powers didn't bother me. But if I was playing a cyberknight from the RMB, I could see it as a shock. "What I went from anti-evil to anti-tech? huh?".

Lastly. As a player I dislike knowing things beyond my character. If I am not a mage, I do not read the magic system. if I am not a gun guy, I don't read about guns. If my character learns later, I'll devour those sections, but my mind is such I will ruin my own fun by knowing. I will suggest to players what to do (because I will know the rules better), and possibly ruin their fun too. But certain games, my group knows forwards and backwards. Settings, powers, skills, monster stat blocks. Nothing is a mystery. nothing is unknown. If they have never played Rifts, I would throw them into Rifts canon. If they know Rifts backwards and forwards, I will change some things. Keep them on their toes and make it so they can't read a stat block and know what to expect.
i.e. First time they fought Vampires, they were very surprised by their immunity to fire (having WoD experience). After a while they understood PB vampires. Then, to throw a loop next campaign, dropped the water hurt thing and made fire hurt them.

Of course. I wouldn't have posted this if it was not open for discussion and I agree with you. I also don't think that a Game Master should make it impossible for players to change the course of history... if that is the story. But just saying "this never happened in my game" when it has no impact on the game/setting whatsoever just seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face to me. I guess that's all.

I like canon too. BUT there are a few examples of canon TOTALLY ruining an entire Game World. Case in point: AD&D DARK SUN. At the end of the novels they kill "The Dragon", most of the Sorcerer Kings, some Heroes, etc...they released Dark Sun 2nd Edition boxed set with most of the original key components of the setting already destroyed...even Rain (something that almost never happened before) was returning!

Back to RIFTS: I loved the Siege of Tolkeen and I think the CS winning was a good move but for the people that disagree, they still have Lazlo, FoM, etc., and I am only talking about North America. So, no big deal, no Earth shattering thing that Tolkeen was obliterated. As an example, the Splugorth conquering Earth will be something that will ruin the setting forever...

ffranceschi wrote:I like canon too. BUT there are a few examples of canon TOTALLY ruining an entire Game World. Case in point: AD&D DARK SUN. At the end of the novels they kill "The Dragon", most of the Sorcerer Kings, some Heroes, etc...they released Dark Sun 2nd Edition boxed set with most of the original key components of the setting already destroyed...even Rain (something that almost never happened before) was returning!

So, no big deal, no Earth shattering thing that Tolkeen was obliterated. As an example, the Splugorth conquering Earth will be something that will ruin the setting forever...

TRUTH!

To the OP, this I agree with totally. I don't even have a problem with Tolkeen's loss of the war. It provides a rallying cry for those who choose to use the CS as an antagonist in game. Ie (Remember Tolkeen! Never again) Or some such lol. Meaning I agree with you for the most part regarding the statements about PB.

I see your point and, for the most part, find myself in agreement with it. I, too, could not buy another Palladium book and still run Rifts or any other Palladium product for years to come. I also find myself in agreement over the official (I DESPISE the use of the word canon, I feel it is being over used) ending of the Tolkeen war, it's what I use. It is neat to be able to point to a weapon or vehicle and say "This is what I'm using, etc."
Of course we've had our differences, which stem from personal styles and interpretations, in this instance the one area that I think is totally preposterous is (of course) the carrion eating necromantic crab vampires from Lemuria with the immunity to water and 1/2 damage from Holywater. It smacks of the one major problem Rifts has had over the years, the lack of consistency which leaves gaping holes in the system or creates a level of power creep in the enemies that makes them even harder to beat for no legitimate reason.
Of course I'm free to disregard any element of the game I don't agree with, unfortunately the aforementioned lack of consistency makes disregarding official material a constant and ongoing occurance.
But in the end, we are BOTH pro-Palladium nutcases even if we don't like everything that is out there.
Farewell and good gaming!!

keir451 wrote:I see your point and, for the most part, find myself in agreement with it. I, too, could not buy another Palladium book and still run Rifts or any other Palladium product for years to come. I also find myself in agreement over the official (I DESPISE the use of the word canon, I feel it is being over used) ending of the Tolkeen war, it's what I use. It is neat to be able to point to a weapon or vehicle and say "This is what I'm using, etc."
Of course we've had our differences, which stem from personal styles and interpretations, in this instance the one area that I think is totally preposterous is (of course) the carrion eating necromantic crab vampires from Lemuria with the immunity to water and 1/2 damage from Holywater. It smacks of the one major problem Rifts has had over the years, the lack of consistency which leaves gaping holes in the system or creates a level of power creep in the enemies that makes them even harder to beat for no legitimate reason.
Of course I'm free to disregard any element of the game I don't agree with, unfortunately the aforementioned lack of consistency makes disregarding official material a constant and ongoing occurance.
But in the end, wea re BOTH pro-Palladium nutcases even if we don't like everything that is out there.
Farewell and good gaming!!

Good post!

I love the canon SoT. It is a great foundation of work, with a lot of heart and soul. Any author will tell you the worst part of writing can be killing off a favorite character. It is very well mapped out and they do not shy away from the realities of what is going on, and the desperation that began to grow on both sides, and also, I credit them with making it so the CS pretty much barely won. It took a perfect storm of events. I also really disagree with some of the key events that led us to the logical conclusion, and some of the opinions on the specifics of how things went down. I love my wife and we disagree all the time

Stonefur wrote:I love the canon SoT. It is a great foundation of work, with a lot of heart and soul. Any author will tell you the worst part of writing can be killing off a favorite character. It is very well mapped out and they do not shy away from the realities of what is going on, and the desperation that began to grow on both sides, and also, I credit them with making it so the CS pretty much barely won. It took a perfect storm of events. I also really disagree with some of the key events that led us to the logical conclusion, and some of the opinions on the specifics of how things went down. I love my wife and we disagree all the time

But we didn't see the favorite character killed off, the CS is still quite intact and better off than before.

So tolkeen was never a favorite "character" for any one? I did say "a" character, not "the" character. Nice try though...I like how you do that...CS propaganda really works lol and we shall see how much better off they will be...the CS has bigger problems that have yet to come to a head, and at some point they will reap what they sow, and have reason to regret it. Come on Vampire invasion!!!!

Nightmask wrote:

Stonefur wrote:I love the canon SoT. It is a great foundation of work, with a lot of heart and soul. Any author will tell you the worst part of writing can be killing off a favorite character. It is very well mapped out and they do not shy away from the realities of what is going on, and the desperation that began to grow on both sides, and also, I credit them with making it so the CS pretty much barely won. It took a perfect storm of events. I also really disagree with some of the key events that led us to the logical conclusion, and some of the opinions on the specifics of how things went down. I love my wife and we disagree all the time

But we didn't see the favorite character killed off, the CS is still quite intact and better off than before.

Stonefur wrote:So tolkeen was never a favorite "character" for any one? and we shall see...the CS has bigger problems that have yet to come to a head, and at some point they will reap what they sow, and have reason to regret it. Come on Vampire invasion!!!!

Ahh but you said it was a hard thing to write the end of a favorite character, Tolkeen isn't the favorite character with plot immunity the CS is.

I think the difference between "A" and "The" are lost upon you...you can skew everything i say how ever you want...it doesn't change anything...if the CS is the "favorite" character, and the "ideal" of the Rifts world, that is actually pretty sad...

Nightmask wrote:

Stonefur wrote:So tolkeen was never a favorite "character" for any one? and we shall see...the CS has bigger problems that have yet to come to a head, and at some point they will reap what they sow, and have reason to regret it. Come on Vampire invasion!!!!

Ahh but you said it was a hard thing to write the end of a favorite character, Tolkeen isn't the favorite character with plot immunity the CS is.

[quote=Stonefur]So tolkeen was never a favorite "character" for any one? I did say "a" character, not "the" character. Nice try though...I like how you do that...CS propaganda really works lol and we shall see how much better off they will be...the CS has bigger problems that have yet to come to a head, and at some point they will reap what they sow, and have reason to regret it. Come on Vampire invasion!!!![/quote]
my answer to the Great and All Powerful Vampire Invasion is NUCLEAR WEAPONS, yeah I KNOW the official take is that vampires can't be harmed by radiation but to me that's just BS. If I drop a nuke on a vampire horde or a Vamp. Intell. they're frikkin' DEAD! No arguments or rerolls. CAVEAT: This is in "My Game" and, of course, does NOT apply to anyone else.

Stonefur wrote:I think the difference between "A" and "The" are lost upon you...you can skew everything i say how ever you want...it doesn't change anything...if the CS is the "favorite" character, and the "ideal" of the Rifts world, that is actually pretty sad...

I can tell the difference quite well. You said 'Any author will tell you the worst part of writing can be killing off a favorite character' while discussing Siege of Tolkeen, from which anyone reading that would reasonably think Tolkeen is being referred to given it was 'killed off', but Tolkeen has never been the favorite character for Palladium it's the CS. While Tolkeen is certainly the favorite of some they didn't write it's death, and the way it's death was written just emphasized that the CS is the favorite character. So I'm not the one skewing anything.

Nightmask wrote:Tolkeen isn't the favorite character with plot immunity the CS is.

Nightmask, this is deceptive or ill-informed. Kevin himself has told me that the Coalition States do not have plot immunity. I can quote him as saying as much.

Stonefur wrote:So tolkeen was never a favorite "character" for any one? I did say "a" character, not "the" character. Nice try though...I like how you do that...CS propaganda really works lol and we shall see how much better off they will be...the CS has bigger problems that have yet to come to a head, and at some point they will reap what they sow, and have reason to regret it. Come on Vampire invasion!!!!

My answer to the Great and All Powerful Vampire Invasion is NUCLEAR WEAPONS, yeah I KNOW the official take is that vampires can't be harmed by radiation but to me that's just BS. If I drop a nuke on a vampire horde or a Vamp. Intell. they're frikkin' DEAD! No arguments or rerolls.
CAVEAT: This is in "My Game" and, of course, does NOT apply to anyone else.

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Tolkeen isn't the favorite character with plot immunity the CS is.

Nightmask, this is deceptive or ill-informed. Kevin himself has told me that the Coalition States do not have plot immunity. I can quote him as saying as much.

Nothing deceptive about it, nor is it ill-informed as we've nothing to go on but what we've seen in the books for how the CS is handled. Any statements on your part about Kevin having said they don't have it is irrelevant as the validity of that can't be verified and has no more weight than if I or anyone else (outside of the mods) said Kevin said something.

Wow.....

I can tell the difference quite well. You said 'Any author will tell you the worst part of writing can be killing off a favorite character' while discussing Siege of Tolkeen, from which anyone reading that would reasonably think Tolkeen is being referred to given it was 'killed off', but Tolkeen has never been the favorite character for Palladium it's the CS. While Tolkeen is certainly the favorite of some they didn't write it's death, and the way it's death was written just emphasized that the CS is the favorite character. So I'm not the one skewing anything.

I said a character...not THE...spelling it out now...if Tolkeen is a favorite of some, then it is "A favorite character", your argument that the CS is "the" favorite is your insertion...you skew it by making it seem like in "intended" some thing that I did not...and also you completely ignored the point of my post originally. You are flaming me over 1 sentence...and taking ot out of the context of the post. Skew...CS fanboy...thats cool...Tolkeen was killed off...it could be easily defined as "A favorite character", you railing off about the CS being the favorite etc etc is your opinion...and it does nothing to devalue my actually point...you interpret the intentions of the original authors and call it canon...it took 6 books to kill tolkeen. I like the whole argument denial approach, though it is quite transparent, and again, the skulls are showing through.

Nuclear Weapons are nice but aren't those the things that started this whole mess?? and nukes tend to be bad for EVERYTHING so scorched earth policy doesnt work when the earth is already scorched and covered with dimensional rifts...the gonna nuke texas?missou?

Nightmask wrote:Nothing deceptive about it, nor is it ill-informed as we've nothing to go on but what we've seen in the books for how the CS is handled. Any statements on your part about Kevin having said they don't have it is irrelevant as the validity of that can't be verified and has no more weight than if I or anyone else (outside of the mods) said Kevin said something.

The implication of plot immunity is that they cannot be touched, they are inviolate, this is blatantly wrong.

For a starter, the Republicans are a hop-skip and jump from toppling the Coalition States and seizing control of it. All it takes is the individual Game Master saying " they get rid of A.R.C.H.I.E. Three" and there is a printed outline for how they take the CS and reinvent it.

As for saying that I have no credibility because I am not a moderator, that just bunk. I have specifically seen this argument so often that when I was speaking with him, it was one of the first things I asked because I wanted to know the taboos for writers working for the company. Believe me or not, but he laughed at it. Openly laughed allowed at how ludicrous the concept was that the Coalition States were untouchable or had any sort of plot immunity.

Now, you can call me a liar or make up a story about how he said something else (or some else might want to) and sure whatever but I know what he said to me. See, the difference here is that I am passing on an actual factual statement of reality and presenting it as truth. If you would like verification, you would have to ask Kevin at the Open House or the next time you speak to him.

However, saying "they have plot immunity" based entirely off speculation is... speculation. Saying, "From past experience I don't think the CS are going to lose this one guys" is perfectly acceptable when expressing an opinion. Saying stuff like "They have plot immunity, they can never defeated. Period. Ever."

Well, its just not true and it presents itself as FACT, which is deceptive. The Coalition States do not have plot immunity.

What he said.

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Nothing deceptive about it, nor is it ill-informed as we've nothing to go on but what we've seen in the books for how the CS is handled. Any statements on your part about Kevin having said they don't have it is irrelevant as the validity of that can't be verified and has no more weight than if I or anyone else (outside of the mods) said Kevin said something.

The implication of plot immunity is that they cannot be touched, they are inviolate, this is blatantly wrong.

For a starter, the Republicans are a hop-skip and jump from toppling the Coalition States and seizing control of it. All it takes is the individual Game Master saying " they get rid of A.R.C.H.I.E. Three" and there is a printed outline for how they take the CS and reinvent it.

As for saying that I have no credibility because I am not a moderator, that just bunk. I have specifically seen this argument so often that when I was speaking with him, it was one of the first things I asked because I wanted to know the taboos for writers working for the company. Believe me or not, but he laughed at it. Openly laughed allowed at how ludicrous the concept was that the Coalition States were untouchable or had any sort of plot immunity.

Now, you can call me a liar or make up a story about how he said something else (or some else might want to) and sure whatever but I know what he said to me. See, the difference here is that I am passing on an actual factual statement of reality and presenting it as truth. If you would like verification, you would have to ask Kevin at the Open House or the next time you speak to him.

However, saying "they have plot immunity" based entirely off speculation is... speculation. Saying, "From past experience I don't think the CS are going to lose this one guys" is perfectly acceptable when expressing an opinion. Saying stuff like "They have plot immunity, they can never defeated. Period. Ever."

Well, its just not true and it presents itself as FACT, which is deceptive. The Coalition States do not have plot immunity.

My favorite part of all of this, is my point was, I LIKE CANON. The reason why doesn't matter apparently if it not the "right" one , eh?? CS brainwashing.

Stonefur wrote:My favorite part of all of this, is my point was, I LIKE CANON. The reason why doesn't matter apparently if it not the "right" one , eh?? CS brainwashing.

I like canon. That is kind of the whole point of this thread. Which was to mean, if all of a sudden the Splugorth conquered earth... the planet was decimated... and through a last ditch effort the throngs of humanity rose up with a plethora of slaves and toppled Lord Splynnkryth and took back their world so Palladium released RIFTS: Novi Orbis (which is latin for new world for anyone who cares) and it was P.A. 136 and most of the **** we knew was crushed... I'd still be interested to see how to turned out.

Admittedly, this is in part because I know Kevin and the Palladium staff are not stupid enough to do such a thing until they knew that it was gold but if it happened, I would likely prefer playing in that world than playing in a world where certain world books don't exist because the Game Master is a racist, where a certain type of Dog-boy gets a huge additional bonus just because its the same breed as that G.M.'s personal pet dog or Free Quebec not being worse hatemongers than the CS just because the GM didn't like SoT.

Maybe that makes me weird, but it is just how I feel about it right now at this stage in my "life."

I am totally okay with changing events in game, or not doing something if it upsets a pre-existing game, but sometimes I feel like a lot of "in my game" arguments are more egocentric than a matter of what makes the best game/story. As a writer my dedication is always to "what makes the best story" and I try very hard to keep my ego and bias out of my games. I mean, countless times I have seen players take hold of an idea I thought was stupid and blow me away!

The best character I have ever G.M.ed for was a Hispanic Drug-Dealing (addict too) Ley Line Walker who had a crippling low Mental Affinity (everyone hated him and thought he was a crap Practitioner of Magic and wouldn't share spells with him). For three game sessions this guy walked around naked in an oversized viking helmet, boots and gloves and was the most unpredictable and stupid sounding character you can think of. He had blue skin, either because in his youth he had learned a couple of blue fire spells or because he took too many designer drugs (like Rush and Bing-go)--we never even found out.

When he bought me that character, I laughed at him and looked at the other PCs at the table and they shrugged and said that they'd put up with it. So I let him play him. And, honestly, he is the best character I have ever run a game for. He had SO much personality that even though he was a total slime bag and everyone hated him and treated him like ****, the players all loved him and we would all hang on his next action.

He once (much to my surprise) defeated more than 300 first stage vampires at once and then went on to defeat an Alien Intelligence, almost single-handedly! I threw everything I could at him but he was tricky, underhanded, cunning piece of crap and although everyone in the game thought he was a piece of crap and the players went out of their way to prevent him from opening his mouth or doing ANYTHING in a social situation, he was without a question THE GREATEST MAGE I have ever seen in any game.

Which I am SHAMED to admit. I play a good wizard but if I had to pick between one of my Practitioners of Magic or Alphonse Frank to actually find a way of winning, than I'd pick Alphonse. Which still eats at me... but I guess my point here is, he was a terrible idea. He sucked so hard and he acted like such an obnoxious and irrational pain in the ass... but he was a lot fun and a great idea I never would have thought of.

Akashic Soldier wrote:I like canon. That is kind of the whole point of this thread. Which was to mean, if all of a sudden the Splugorth conquered earth... the planet was decimated... and through a last ditch effort the throngs of humanity rose up with a plethora of slaves and toppled Lord Splynnkryth and took back their world so Palladium released RIFTS: Novi Orbis (which is latin for new world for anyone who cares) and it was P.A. 136 and most of the **** we knew was crushed... I'd still be interested to see how to turned out.

Interested to see how it is going to turn out? Yes...but nothing more, because the parts that I really like will be no more...as I have said before: there are things that could RUIN the WORLD forever...I prefer they do a "multiple parallel dimensions thing" as DC Universe (Earth 1, 2 etc.).

ffranceschi wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:I like canon. That is kind of the whole point of this thread. Which was to mean, if all of a sudden the Splugorth conquered earth... the planet was decimated... and through a last ditch effort the throngs of humanity rose up with a plethora of slaves and toppled Lord Splynnkryth and took back their world so Palladium released RIFTS: Novi Orbis (which is latin for new world for anyone who cares) and it was P.A. 136 and most of the **** we knew was crushed... I'd still be interested to see how to turned out.

Interested to see how it is going to turn out? Yes...but nothing more, because the parts that I really like will be no more...as I have said before: there are things that could RUIN the WORLD forever...I prefer they do a "multiple parallel dimensions thing" as DC Universe (Earth 1, 2 etc.).

So do I. Interesting to explore but I think that if we're ever going to, it is going to be in our own games and from our own minds and not from the pages of a Palladium Book.

I have to say I was not suprised with how SoT ended... it was a bet faster then I would have expected. becouse both the CS and Tolkeen where powerful and well perpared. At forst When I thought about it I thought the Advantage was to Tolkeen... but looking back if the CS was willing to pay the costs and take the time to wear them down. they could win in part like we won WW2 where once we got or indestry moblinsed we where able to out porduce or Enamys... How cares if we lose 50 cargo ships a month when where building 150.

I still would have thought it would have taken longer to wear down talkeen.... and there was a way that talkeen could have one... IF it did not try to destory the CS... "always leave your enamy a path of retreat" (the art of war). but Talkeen might have been able to drag out the war long enough and inflicted such high loses in terms of men and equitment... that the CS might well have desided that the game was not worth playing ant taken there toys and went home... AT most that would have bought Tolkeen about anther 10 years or so... befor the CS came back better perpared. That sead that after fighting Tolken and FQ that the CS has to be weaker then it has been in the last 20-50 years... I wonder whom is going to try to take adantage of that weekness....

Also I think the Indepindent kingdomes that do not wish to be under CS rule missed there best chance to contain the CS..... the CS will continue to expaned intell some of forceably cantaines it.... there is still a cance to do so... as I think the weakened CS is going to have it hands full with the Zitizix and the pacos empire...

tmikesecrist3 wrote:I have to say I was not suprised with how SoT ended... it was a bet faster then I would have expected. becouse both the CS and Tolkeen where powerful and well perpared. At forst When I thought about it I thought the Advantage was to Tolkeen... but looking back if the CS was willing to pay the costs and take the time to wear them down. they could win in part like we won WW2 where once we got or indestry moblinsed we where able to out porduce or Enamys... How cares if we lose 50 cargo ships a month when where building 150.

I still would have thought it would have taken longer to wear down talkeen.... and there was a way that talkeen could have one... IF it did not try to destory the CS... "always leave your enamy a path of retreat" (the art of war). but Talkeen might have been able to drag out the war long enough and inflicted such high loses in terms of men and equitment... that the CS might well have desided that the game was not worth playing ant taken there toys and went home... AT most that would have bought Tolkeen about anther 10 years or so... befor the CS came back better perpared. That sead that after fighting Tolken and FQ that the CS has to be weaker then it has been in the last 20-50 years... I wonder whom is going to try to take adantage of that weekness....

Also I think the Indepindent kingdomes that do not wish to be under CS rule missed there best chance to contain the CS..... the CS will continue to expaned intell some of forceably cantaines it.... there is still a cance to do so... as I think the weakened CS is going to have it hands full with the Zitizix and the pacos empire...

Very insightful post Tmik!

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Stonefur wrote:My favorite part of all of this, is my point was, I LIKE CANON. The reason why doesn't matter apparently if it not the "right" one , eh?? CS brainwashing.

I like canon. That is kind of the whole point of this thread. Which was to mean, if all of a sudden the Splugorth conquered earth... the planet was decimated... and through a last ditch effort the throngs of humanity rose up with a plethora of slaves and toppled Lord Splynnkryth and took back their world so Palladium released RIFTS: Novi Orbis (which is latin for new world for anyone who cares) and it was P.A. 136 and most of the **** we knew was crushed... I'd still be interested to see how to turned out.

Admittedly, this is in part because I know Kevin and the Palladium staff are not stupid enough to do such a thing until they knew that it was gold but if it happened, I would likely prefer playing in that world than playing in a world where certain world books don't exist because the Game Master is a racist, where a certain type of Dog-boy gets a huge additional bonus just because its the same breed as that G.M.'s personal pet dog or Free Quebec not being worse hatemongers than the CS just because the GM didn't like SoT.

Maybe that makes me weird, but it is just how I feel about it right now at this stage in my "life."

I am totally okay with changing events in game, or not doing something if it upsets a pre-existing game, but sometimes I feel like a lot of "in my game" arguments are more egocentric than a matter of what makes the best game/story. As a writer my dedication is always to "what makes the best story" and I try very hard to keep my ego and bias out of my games. I mean, countless times I have seen players take hold of an idea I thought was stupid and blow me away!

The best character I have ever G.M.ed for was a Hispanic Drug-Dealing (addict too) Ley Line Walker who had a crippling low Mental Affinity (everyone hated him and thought he was a crap Practitioner of Magic and wouldn't share spells with him). For three game sessions this guy walked around naked in an oversized viking helmet, boots and gloves and was the most unpredictable and stupid sounding character you can think of. He had blue skin, either because in his youth he had learned a couple of blue fire spells or because he took too many designer drugs (like Rush and Bing-go)--we never even found out.

When he bought me that character, I laughed at him and looked at the other PCs at the table and they shrugged and said that they'd put up with it. So I let him play him. And, honestly, he is the best character I have ever run a game for. He had SO much personality that even though he was a total slime bag and everyone hated him and treated him like ****, the players all loved him and we would all hang on his next action.

He once (much to my surprise) defeated more than 300 first stage vampires at once and then went on to defeat an Alien Intelligence, almost single-handedly! I threw everything I could at him but he was tricky, underhanded, cunning piece of crap and although everyone in the game thought he was a piece of crap and the players went out of their way to prevent him from opening his mouth or doing ANYTHING in a social situation, he was without a question THE GREATEST MAGE I have ever seen in any game.

Which I am SHAMED to admit. I play a good wizard but if I had to pick between one of my Practitioners of Magic or Alphonse Frank to actually find a way of winning, than I'd pick Alphonse. Which still eats at me... but I guess my point here is, he was a terrible idea. He sucked so hard and he acted like such an obnoxious and irrational pain in the ass... but he was a lot fun and a great idea I never would have thought of.

The more you talk, the more I think we need to sit down and swap stories someday

killed 300 vampires at once? Seriously? It's not that it's impossible, it's that all the ways I can think of require resources the average dope-dealing LLW wouldn't have access to. What was his trick? I'm curious if I could think of a way for the vampires to counter it.

Canon is like getting a lego castle for x-mas. You have all the pieces you need to make "the" castle, but when I am ready to build my OWN version of the castle, I still have all the pieces.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:killed 300 vampires at once? Seriously? It's not that it's impossible, it's that all the ways I can think of require resources the average dope-dealing LLW wouldn't have access to. What was his trick? I'm curious if I could think of a way for the vampires to counter it.

I know right!

The Vampire Intelligence was along the Rio Grande and had been able to get into America through an underground passage way and had opened an underground passage way and was "nesting there."

Because it didn't want people to know it was there until it had built up its numbers it had been sending out "Chupacabras" to harvest blood from the Mexican shanty towns along the American side of the boarder. Because Alphonse was a Ley Line Walker his family saved up and contacted him so he would come down and vanquish the Chupacabras. However, Alphonse knew that there was no such thing as a Chupacabras and that it was a tradition and figured he'd just have to go down there, throw around some rice, chant, and then go home and all would be good--or so he thought.

So he got down there and they started investigating, but Alphonse kept insisting that these Chupacabras were just dressed up animals or hoaxes, etc (in this adventure we also learned Alphonse didn't believe in the Christian/Catholic God or that crosses really work on Vampires; he refused to even try using a cross because it was so ludicrous to him. )

Well anyway, long story short they track the Chupacabras back to a gave, find a young Psi-Stalker that had been secretly sustaining himself off the Chupacabras and then Alphonse went down into the caves with Globe of Daylight and didnt find anything. However, he eventually learned that beyond the range of Globe of Daylight was a subterranean Aztek temple... but if light touched it... it just looked like an ordinary cave wall. This freaked out the other players who said they needed a fresh mind and would tackle it next week and so wanted their characters to head back to the town while they thought. Alphonse insisted that it was bunk and they were "*******" insisting "Its probably just some twit Shifter screwing around."

They leave, he decides he won't press on his own and leaves and waits out the front of the cave (alone with Lee) so the Vampire Intelligence thought "This is my chance" and sent out a cloud of Bats from the cave that it had turned into least Vampires and attacks him. It decided that it would strike and kill off Alphonse because then it wouldn't need to deal with the Globe of Daylight spell and it could stay in hiding while it gathered more power. So a CLOUD of these vampires surrounded him and went to attack and he cast Globe of Daylight on himself as he stood on top of the Mountaineer. I thought, okay they're unintelligent so they continue to swarm but cannot advance for the moment so they start picking up rocks and dropping them on him and throwing them at him.

Then he gets his Mystic Chinese Childbride (Yes, his Mystic Chinese Childbride) to start casting this water spell she knew that did practically no damage but knocked one of the creatures back. I thought... "What is the point, they just swarm again and when his spell runs out they'll kill him?" but then he told me that he would cast Globe of Daylight through the momentary gap in the cloud and casts the globe of daylight... beyond the range of the Vampires. I thought... "Okay?"

He then continues doing this, over and over and over again.... SO MANY times... and I thought, no matter, the spells will run out, his P.P.E. will be depleted and the vampires will eat him (I had done the math and he couldn't last until sunrise). Then he places this piece of paper in front of me after some 40 odd castings just as Lee's P.P.E. was just about out and I realized what the bastard had done...

He built a giant igloo of true day light around the Vampes. So essentially they were now trapped between the igloo of light and his little dome of light over himself and the mountaineer. He then proceeded in filling the space between the two light fields with more globe of daylight spells. I start thinking "****!" and so they try to flee and I have to calculate their exact speed but because of how he freaking did it none of them could get out of the range of the light quick enough before they were destroyed.

When all was said and done (about 20-30 rounds later) all the Vampires were dead and he ***** about how annoying Vampires are (like they were some sort of common freaking occurrence) and the other players (who had decided to stay to see if he lived or died) were just shocked (as was I).

All that said, it was much more epic than this (this is just a summary). I had the Vamps doing Kamikaze dives into the light to try to grab him and drag him or Lee out and other stuff like that but he just had the freaking devil's luck.

Still, truth be told it was close to 400 Vampires in total but I don't remember the exact numbers. It was enough to surround the mountaineer (I had to figure out exact numbers when he did his light globe trick). Needless to say, he went down into underground shortly after that (after getting all the immigrants to recharge his P.P.E.; clever move I had not planned on) and fought the Vampire Intelligence. It possessed his brother in law (who he mercilessly killed "because you're ****** up homes") and after enduring a minor jaunt through a hell dimension of living walls, lamprey mouths on leach-like bodies, 14 second stage Vampires and a Master Vampire, the bastard got to the Vampire Intelligence which offered him immortality if he served it. He refused (not for any damn noble reason but because he refused to serve anyone) and he messed it up and then banished it back to its home dimension and threw the severed head of his brother in law at it and told it to "**** off."



Again, so much happened I am not going into but the moral of the story is... the other players were like "**** this ****" and wanted none of it and Alphonse was like "Oh man, this is not how I planned on spending my day" and SOMEHOW made every freaking saving throw and just handled himself like a pro the entire day. I think what was his REAL advantage was the Vamps and **** possessed his friends and family and he just mercilessly killed them and got pissed off that the Vampires would make him do that... you know... rather than actually hesitating. He handled the whole thing like a dirty job that no one else wanted to do.

I honestly thought he was going to die at like 6 points... but nope. And when questioned about it, he was just like "I am a Ley Line Walker what do you think I do?" and then snorted crack off the dash off the mountaineer and got "his cousins" to soupe it up in traditional Mexican fashion with giant rims, a killer paint job, and that obnoxious horn that he would play from his cell phone for us.

I like canon as a starting point, but once the campaign has started, any changes made to canon via new material or advancing the official time-line get included in the campaign at the discretion of the GM.

Once the campaign ends and a new campaign begins, things can reset to whatever the current state of canon is.

If I were to start a campaign today, Tolkeen would be in ruins. If I were still running a campaign from before the SoT books were printed, Tolkeen and the CS would still be in the build-up phase before real hostilities began unless the players did something to trigger the actual war.

The only parts of canon that I would outright ignore are the bits that are incompatible with my house rules. Nothing comes to mind right now, but if something was pointed out in-game, I would resolve the inconsistency in favor of the house rules rather than canon.

--flatline

It's okay. There are support groups for this sort of thing.

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:killed 300 vampires at once? Seriously? It's not that it's impossible, it's that all the ways I can think of require resources the average dope-dealing LLW wouldn't have access to. What was his trick? I'm curious if I could think of a way for the vampires to counter it.

I know right!

The Vampire Intelligence was along the Rio Grande and had been able to get into America through an underground passage way and had opened an underground passage way and was "nesting there."

Because it didn't want people to know it was there until it had built up its numbers it had been sending out "Chupacabras" to harvest blood from the Mexican shanty towns along the American side of the boarder. Because Alphonse was a Ley Line Walker his family saved up and contacted him so he would come down and vanquish the Chupacabras. However, Alphonse knew that there was no such thing as a Chupacabras and that it was a tradition and figured he'd just have to go down there, throw around some rice, chant, and then go home and all would be good--or so he thought.

So he got down there and they started investigating, but Alphonse kept insisting that these Chupacabras were just dressed up animals or hoaxes, etc (in this adventure we also learned Alphonse didn't believe in the Christian/Catholic God or that crosses really work on Vampires; he refused to even try using a cross because it was so ludicrous to him. )

Well anyway, long story short they track the Chupacabras back to a gave, find a young Psi-Stalker that had been secretly sustaining himself off the Chupacabras and then Alphonse went down into the caves with Globe of Daylight and didnt find anything. However, he eventually learned that beyond the range of Globe of Daylight was a subterranean Aztek temple... but if light touched it... it just looked like an ordinary cave wall. This freaked out the other players who said they needed a fresh mind and would tackle it next week and so wanted their characters to head back to the town while they thought. Alphonse insisted that it was bunk and they were "*******" insisting "Its probably just some twit Shifter screwing around."

They leave, he decides he won't press on his own and leaves and waits out the front of the cave (alone with Lee) so the Vampire Intelligence thought "This is my chance" and sent out a cloud of Bats from the cave that it had turned into least Vampires and attacks him. It decided that it would strike and kill off Alphonse because then it wouldn't need to deal with the Globe of Daylight spell and it could stay in hiding while it gathered more power. So a CLOUD of these vampires surrounded him and went to attack and he cast Globe of Daylight on himself as he stood on top of the Mountaineer. I thought, okay they're unintelligent so they continue to swarm but cannot advance for the moment so they start picking up rocks and dropping them on him and throwing them at him.

Then he gets his Mystic Chinese Childbride (Yes, his Mystic Chinese Childbride) to start casting this water spell she knew that did practically no damage but knocked one of the creatures back. I thought... "What is the point, they just swarm again and when his spell runs out they'll kill him?" but then he told me that he would cast Globe of Daylight through the momentary gap in the cloud and casts the globe of daylight... beyond the range of the Vampires. I thought... "Okay?"

He then continues doing this, over and over and over again.... SO MANY times... and I thought, no matter, the spells will run out, his P.P.E. will be depleted and the vampires will eat him (I had done the math and he couldn't last until sunrise). Then he places this piece of paper in front of me after some 40 odd castings just as Lee's P.P.E. was just about out and I realized what the bastard had done...

He built a giant igloo of true day light around the Vampes. So essentially they were now trapped between the igloo of light and his little dome of light over himself and the mountaineer. He then proceeded in filling the space between the two light fields with more globe of daylight spells. I start thinking "****!" and so they try to flee and I have to calculate their exact speed but because of how he freaking did it none of them could get out of the range of the light quick enough before they were destroyed.

When all was said and done (about 20-30 rounds later) all the Vampires were dead and he ***** about how annoying Vampires are (like they were some sort of common freaking occurrence) and the other players (who had decided to stay to see if he lived or died) were just shocked (as was I).

All that said, it was much more epic than this (this is just a summary). I had the Vamps doing Kamikaze dives into the light to try to grab him and drag him or Lee out and other stuff like that but he just had the freaking devil's luck.

Still, truth be told it was close to 400 Vampires in total but I don't remember the exact numbers. It was enough to surround the mountaineer (I had to figure out exact numbers when he did his light globe trick). Needless to say, he went down into underground shortly after that (after getting all the immigrants to recharge his P.P.E.; clever move I had not planned on) and fought the Vampire Intelligence. It possessed his brother in law (who he mercilessly killed "because you're ****** up homes") and after enduring a minor jaunt through a hell dimension of living walls, lamprey mouths on leach-like bodies, 14 second stage Vampires and a Master Vampire, the bastard got to the Vampire Intelligence which offered him immortality if he served it. He refused (not for any damn noble reason but because he refused to serve anyone) and he messed it up and then banished it back to its home dimension and threw the severed head of his brother in law at it and told it to "**** off."



Again, so much happened I am not going into but the moral of the story is... the other players were like "**** this ****" and wanted none of it and Alphonse was like "Oh man, this is not how I planned on spending my day" and SOMEHOW made every freaking saving throw and just handled himself like a pro the entire day. I think what was his REAL advantage was the Vamps and **** possessed his friends and family and he just mercilessly killed them and got pissed off that the Vampires would make him do that... you know... rather than actually hesitating. He handled the whole thing like a dirty job that no one else wanted to do.

I honestly thought he was going to die at like 6 points... but nope. And when questioned about it, he was just like "I am a Ley Line Walker what do you think I do?" and then snorted crack off the dash off the mountaineer and got "his cousins" to soupe it up in traditional Mexican fashion with giant rims, a killer paint job, and that obnoxious horn that he would play from his cell phone for us.

Ahhhh. Was it a houserule that Globe of Daylight kills vampires? By the rules all being trapped in globe of daylight does is send them in a frenzy to escape running through the light--the spell explicitly does not damage and cannot kill vampires.

I BELIEVE First Stagers take Half their Total HP each full melee round spent in true daylight in addition to the standard save vs horror not to go crazy. I will have to dig around through VKr in the morning (it's 3:38am here ATM).

Also as I understood it the spell counts as true daylight? I just checked the R:UE dince its on my desk and I see no mention of anything to the contrary?

Akashic Soldier wrote:I BELIEVE First Stagers take Half their Total HP each full melee round spent in true daylight in addition to the standard save vs horror not to go crazy. I will have to dig around through VKr in the morning (it's 3:38am here ATM).

Also as I understood it the spell counts as true daylight? I just checked the R:UE dince its on my desk and I see no mention of anything to the contrary?

Page 79 Vampire Kingdoms Revised under Death by sunlight there is a note, that while it does create true daylight it is NOT powerful enough to kill. the origional vampire kingdoms had the same note on page 28. As does every single other vampire statblock in the other palladium games.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:I BELIEVE First Stagers take Half their Total HP each full melee round spent in true daylight in addition to the standard save vs horror not to go crazy. I will have to dig around through VKr in the morning (it's 3:38am here ATM).

Also as I understood it the spell counts as true daylight? I just checked the R:UE dince its on my desk and I see no mention of anything to the contrary?

Page 79 Vampire Kingdoms Revised under Death by sunlight there is a note, bolded no less, that while it does create true daylight it is NOT powerful enough to kill. the origional vampire kingdoms had teh same note.

Sorry, your player screwed you hard. By the rules they would have just flee beyond the light, then kill him whenever his PPE ran out.

Thanks, I will check it out in the morning first thing! (I believe you but I'd like to read it just to know if there was anything else I missed).

I remember that it didn't work on second stage and master, but I thought it did on first. Oh well, it hardly matters now and it was epic at the time. Although I have no qualms with killing my PCs the story would have been far less interesting if he died (even if that was my plan).

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:I BELIEVE First Stagers take Half their Total HP each full melee round spent in true daylight in addition to the standard save vs horror not to go crazy. I will have to dig around through VKr in the morning (it's 3:38am here ATM).

Also as I understood it the spell counts as true daylight? I just checked the R:UE dince its on my desk and I see no mention of anything to the contrary?

Page 79 Vampire Kingdoms Revised under Death by sunlight there is a note, bolded no less, that while it does create true daylight it is NOT powerful enough to kill. the origional vampire kingdoms had teh same note.

Sorry, your player screwed you hard. By the rules they would have just flee beyond the light, then kill him whenever his PPE ran out.

Thanks, I will check it out in the morning first thing! (I believe you but I'd like to read it just to know if there was anything else I missed).

I remember that it didn't work on second stage and master, but I thought it did on first. Oh well, it hardly matters now and it was epic at the time. Although I have no qualms with killing my PCs the story would have been far less interesting if he died (even if that was my plan).

yea, it's a bit too late to come in and say "Sorry, I just found out those vampires should have slaughtered you a few months ago'. just make sure to tell him you saw the note (when you look at it) and while clever it's not a trick he can use again.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:yea, it's a bit too late to come in and say "Sorry, I just found out those vampires should have slaughtered you a few months ago'. just make sure to tell him you saw the note (when you look at it) and while clever it's not a trick he can use again.

Yup, since then the character is retired and that game ended but I will let him know.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:I BELIEVE First Stagers take Half their Total HP each full melee round spent in true daylight in addition to the standard save vs horror not to go crazy. I will have to dig around through VKr in the morning (it's 3:38am here ATM).

Also as I understood it the spell counts as true daylight? I just checked the R:UE dince its on my desk and I see no mention of anything to the contrary?

Page 79 Vampire Kingdoms Revised under Death by sunlight there is a note, bolded no less, that while it does create true daylight it is NOT powerful enough to kill. the origional vampire kingdoms had teh same note.

Sorry, your player screwed you hard. By the rules they would have just flee beyond the light, then kill him whenever his PPE ran out.

Thanks, I will check it out in the morning first thing! (I believe you but I'd like to read it just to know if there was anything else I missed).

I remember that it didn't work on second stage and master, but I thought it did on first. Oh well, it hardly matters now and it was epic at the time. Although I have no qualms with killing my PCs the story would have been far less interesting if he died (even if that was my plan).

yea, it's a bit too late to come in and say "Sorry, I just found out those vampires should have slaughtered you a few months ago'. just make sure to tell him you saw the note (when you look at it) and while clever it's not a trick he can use again.

I seem to remember someone posting on here how their GM got the altered rules regarding vampires and simply sprung it on them next time they fought vampires (as seasoned vampire hunters) that among other things the 'cross on a flashlight' gear didn't work anymore. If so that'd be a really wrong way to inform your players that 'hey I'm using the new book now and all your tried and true vampire techniques no longer work and never did' when it's something they should very much already know.

Nightmask wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:I BELIEVE First Stagers take Half their Total HP each full melee round spent in true daylight in addition to the standard save vs horror not to go crazy. I will have to dig around through VKr in the morning (it's 3:38am here ATM).

Also as I understood it the spell counts as true daylight? I just checked the R:UE dince its on my desk and I see no mention of anything to the contrary?

Page 79 Vampire Kingdoms Revised under Death by sunlight there is a note, bolded no less, that while it does create true daylight it is NOT powerful enough to kill. the origional vampire kingdoms had teh same note.

Sorry, your player screwed you hard. By the rules they would have just flee beyond the light, then kill him whenever his PPE ran out.

Thanks, I will check it out in the morning first thing! (I believe you but I'd like to read it just to know if there was anything else I missed).

I remember that it didn't work on second stage and master, but I thought it did on first. Oh well, it hardly matters now and it was epic at the time. Although I have no qualms with killing my PCs the story would have been far less interesting if he died (even if that was my plan).

yea, it's a bit too late to come in and say "Sorry, I just found out those vampires should have slaughtered you a few months ago'. just make sure to tell him you saw the note (when you look at it) and while clever it's not a trick he can use again.

I seem to remember someone posting on here how their GM got the altered rules regarding vampires and simply sprung it on them next time they fought vampires (as seasoned vampire hunters) that among other things the 'cross on a flashlight' gear didn't work anymore. If so that'd be a really wrong way to inform your players that 'hey I'm using the new book now and all your tried and true vampire techniques no longer work and never did' when it's something they should very much already know.

Well, yes, springing it on them is a wrong way to do it. that's why I said he should tell him right away outside of the game.

For people with old characters, I treat new editions of books as new dimensions, works easiest that way.

Same way as if you don't want to have the SoT occur or something. You simply run your game in a dimension where it didn't happen.

The canon universe with canon events as per books still exists out there, you just didn't begin your game in that continuity. Perhaps you could summon an Alter Id via temporal magic to that dimension, or open a dimensional portal to that different version of Rifts Earth.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:I BELIEVE First Stagers take Half their Total HP each full melee round spent in true daylight in addition to the standard save vs horror not to go crazy. I will have to dig around through VKr in the morning (it's 3:38am here ATM).

Also as I understood it the spell counts as true daylight? I just checked the R:UE dince its on my desk and I see no mention of anything to the contrary?

Page 79 Vampire Kingdoms Revised under Death by sunlight there is a note, that while it does create true daylight it is NOT powerful enough to kill. the origional vampire kingdoms had the same note on page 28. As does every single other vampire statblock in the other palladium games.

Correct, but I think maybe in PFRPG 1st edition, it did do damage (maybe it is listed in 1st ed Monsters and Animals or was in BTS-1st), Because we used Globe of Daylight pre Vampire Kingdoms (1st) to kill vampires back then. I just have this thing in the back of my head that at one time it had a damage amount for it.

ZorValachan wrote:Lastly. As a player I dislike knowing things beyond my character. If I am not a mage, I do not read the magic system. if I am not a gun guy, I don't read about guns. If my character learns later, I'll devour those sections, but my mind is such I will ruin my own fun by knowing. I will suggest to players what to do (because I will know the rules better), and possibly ruin their fun too. But certain games, my group knows forwards and backwards. Settings, powers, skills, monster stat blocks. Nothing is a mystery. nothing is unknown. If they have never played Rifts, I would throw them into Rifts canon. If they know Rifts backwards and forwards, I will change some things. Keep them on their toes and make it so they can't read a stat block and know what to expect.
i.e. First time they fought Vampires, they were very surprised by their immunity to fire (having WoD experience). After a while they understood PB vampires. Then, to throw a loop next campaign, dropped the water hurt thing and made fire hurt them.

On the flipside (playing Demon's Advocate to your Deevil's Advocate)

Back in my playing days, few things irritated me more than a GM who had a book I didn't know of and rubbed my ignorance of it in my face. Having players in the dark about the setting and the powers at work puts a lot of burden on you as a GM to be a good storyteller, to paint a picture of what the players see and hear. That's a tall order, and few GMs I've played with are truly up to it.

Having knowledgeable players can be a really good thing. If they already know all about the Sunaj, then they're well-read enough to understand that this isn't common knowledge, and their characters should act accordingly. If you want to suprise the players, then surprise them with the story, not the setting. It's not like the setting isn't flexible, anyway. Even the defined areas are painted in broad, rough strokes.

ZorValachan wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:I BELIEVE First Stagers take Half their Total HP each full melee round spent in true daylight in addition to the standard save vs horror not to go crazy. I will have to dig around through VKr in the morning (it's 3:38am here ATM).

Also as I understood it the spell counts as true daylight? I just checked the R:UE dince its on my desk and I see no mention of anything to the contrary?

Page 79 Vampire Kingdoms Revised under Death by sunlight there is a note, that while it does create true daylight it is NOT powerful enough to kill. the origional vampire kingdoms had the same note on page 28. As does every single other vampire statblock in the other palladium games.

Correct, but I think maybe in PFRPG 1st edition, it did do damage (maybe it is listed in 1st ed Monsters and Animals or was in BTS-1st), Because we used Globe of Daylight pre Vampire Kingdoms (1st) to kill vampires back then. I just have this thing in the back of my head that at one time it had a damage amount for it.

FYI: I did find this in BTS-1st, in the vampire description. Sunlight did 6D6 damage and Globe of Daylight did 3D6. So, before Vampire Kingdoms, it was official.

My felling is canon should set the state of the world. The Canon story should not advance other than in optional what if modules.

Daeglan wrote:My felling is canon should set the state of the world. The Canon story should not advance other than in optional what if modules.

I totally agree with this. Advancing the time line should be avoided at all costs.

--flatline

I like the way the White Wolf does this now. They have a book on a group of antagonists. But that book basically has several options for how that group works and is totally up to the GM as to how he uses them. Thus 1. eliminating players going the book says they are X. Because the book doesn't actually nail anything down. 2. does not force story onto the GM. 3. does not paint the world into a corner.

I disagree. Canon should advance. Not with every new sourcebook. Yet a game world cannot imo remain eternally static and unchanging. Espcially rifts. where their is just too many factions, groups etc. Advancing the canon if done properly can enrich a game world imo. A good example of how not to do it was with White Wolfs old world of darkness. A world ending event. No way to stop it. No way to alter it. Just doom death and destruction. Sure one could play around the metaplot yet later books just were built on top of the metaplot. Same thing with Chaos Earth. I and my players have no urge to run or play it. The time of the Rifts will come. There is no stopping it. No altering it the fact. So why bother. Might as well just play Rifts.

I only dislike canon when writers toss canon aside. As in Sot. Somehow general homes survives in the Xicitix badlands when by canon even with all his precautions he should have been torn apart. No one bothered to test Tolkeen defence system to check and see if it could handle a battle situation. So of course it collapses. CS given script and plot immunity because of their popularity. Don't bother trying to change my opinion on the CS in sot it's set in adamantium. The organizations with good alignments somehow never trusting or liking each other enough to work togther. Yet the evil rganizations seem to work well toghter. Despite the fact that by the book evil characters should not get along. All so that the good organizations never band as a group to defeat the evil organizations in Rifts

PB is not the first company to ignore canon in a rpg. Nor the last. Just hate it when any company does it.

It is not eternally static. It does advance. In the GM's game. It is not the job of the game company to write the story. That's the GM's job. The problem with the game company advancing story is it tramples over GM's stories. If a GM had Tolkeen beating back the Coalition now their game no longer jives with the game books and you just gave that GM more work having to mesh their story with the game world. That is bad. If they Wrote a siege of Tolkeen and had in the book both out comes and potential resons for them and they were optional that would be great. Meta-plot tends to steam roll a GM's work. and that is not cool.