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What are some of the ways a SDC only opponent(s) can take down a MDC body armored badguy?

I assume they can be tackled, stripped of armor and murdered. Poisoned or drowned if it's non-environmental. Psionics that ignore armor. Rammed with a monster truck if it's going fast enough. Dropped from great heights. Mass explosions.

What about being engulfed in flames for a lengthy period?

What about having limbs torn off by a strong opponent?

What else?
(remember I'm a noob to Rifts)


This could be very helpful stuff.

Increase Weight spell till he can't stand or move. Then pile rocks on top of him till he can't move. Then wait a few days, weeks. He will ether be dead of can't stop you from taking said armor

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Increase Weight spell till he can't stand or move. Then pile rocks on top of him till he can't move. Then wait a few days, weeks. He will ether be dead of can't stop you from taking said armor

I'm too lazy to gather rocks...in this case I'd park a truck on him or I'd chain hoist him up a tree til he starves.

MurderCityDisciple wrote:What about being engulfed in flames for a lengthy period?

This works. If you look at the standard enviromental armor features, they only sheild to about 500C or so. if you take someone in full MDC armor and throw him in a furnace at 700C, the armor will be fine, but the person inside will be cooked.

What about having limbs torn off by a strong opponent?

depends. if your armor provides no arm covering such as the juicer plate, this works. by the rules though, you'd have to already have them restrained, as it dosn't appear to be possible to hit anything BUT the juicer plate armor when in actual combat.

What else?

if the armor is not enviromental, gasses like knockout-tear gas work. if it IS enviromental, then it has it's own air supply and filters and gasses will not work.

armor does nothing to stop possession. a mind melter using mentally possess others could take control of their body, and then just make him take his armor off for you.

Armor stops SOME mind effecting spells, but not all. Cast Agony on someone and they are completely incapacitated due to pain. note: Agony does NOT work on juicers because their bio-comp system shuts down their ability to feel pain.

MurderCityDisciple wrote:What are some of the ways a SDC only opponent(s) can take down a MDC body armored badguy?

I assume they can be tackled, stripped of armor and murdered. Poisoned or drowned if it's non-environmental. Psionics that ignore armor. Rammed with a monster truck if it's going fast enough. Dropped from great heights. Mass explosions.

What about being engulfed in flames for a lengthy period?

What about having limbs torn off by a strong opponent?

What else?
(remember I'm a noob to Rifts)


This could be very helpful stuff.

You might check the following thread:
viewtopic.php?p=1047911#p1047911

Mind control:
"Take off your helmet."

Falls:
Falling bypasses armor. Heck, falling from high enough bypasses S.D.C. too.

Poison/Knockout Gas:
So long as their armor isn't environmental of course.

Critical Hits and Massive Damage:
If the Game Master rules that a hit was sufficiently impressive it can bypass armor all together (this is specifically mentioned within the rules). For instance, slamming someone with a girder that swings down from another building on a cable could well bypass armor.

Drowning:
3 minutes (12 melee rounds) before you pass out. 5 minutes before you are brain dead. Again, not as easy with environmental armor.

Electromagnetic Pulse, Mirowaves, and Sonics.
Yup, Dolphins have a spell that bypasses armor because its sonic. Gargoyles have a weapon that bypasses armor because its microwaves. Short version, **** that is immaterial waves can probably get through M.D.C. armor from time to time (or all the time).

Nom Nom Nom ("I eat him!"):
Swallow them and let nature do the rest. Just make sure that they don't have anything nasty like a vibro knife. (My Reduce to Six Inches spell isn't so funny now, is it!?)

Heavy Objects/Traps/Nets
As mentioned previously, massive weighs like parking a truck on someone usually works. Likewise, W.P. Net is one of the most efficient/deadly W.P.s in the game.

That is all I can think of off the top of my head. I'd do better if I had an actual scenario. That is kinda my thing.

I'm a big fan of multiple 40 gallon barrels filled with ANFO.

Lure ones enemies into a rigged valley and set it off. Each barrel is the equivlent of almost 400 pounds of TNT for an aproximate blast of 1d4X4,000 SDC or 1d4X40 MDC. On average it will kill anyone not in powered armor who is inside the blast radius. Modified corectly it will send an EFP through rather tough targets.

MurderCityDisciple wrote:Poisoned or drowned if it's non-environmental.

Or poisoned or drowned if you wait long enough.

Environmental merely delays. It does not make immune.

Akashic Soldier wrote:Drowning:
3 minutes (12 melee rounds) before you pass out. 5 minutes before you are brain dead. Again, not as easy with environmental armor.

If I'm right...according to Pg. 31 Mercenary adventures sourcebook under Hold Breath, it takes 6 sec x PE to faint, 12 sec x PE to fall unconscious, and 6 sec x PE after that to die. To resume up, a 10 PE (standard) human fall in coma/death after 4 min (24 sec x PE) to stop breathing.

mobuttu wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:Drowning:
3 minutes (12 melee rounds) before you pass out. 5 minutes before you are brain dead. Again, not as easy with environmental armor.

If I'm right...according to Pg. 31 Mercenary adventures sourcebook under Hold Breath, it takes 6 sec x PE to faint, 12 sec x PE to fall unconscious, and 6 sec x PE after that to die. To resume up, a 10 PE (standard) human fall in coma/death after 4 min (24 sec x PE) to stop breathing.

Thanks. I was basing it off real life numbers off the top of my head from scouts.

Ok here's a question.

Is stormtrooper armor MDC armor?
If so what does that make the ewok strength?

Also on the ewok front, I think they actually had good tactics for taking down armored baddies. Especially just charging and then overwhelming them Imperial naughty boys. Just rip off the helmet and bash skull with a big rock. I think that tactic would definitely work in Rifts.

MurderCityDisciple wrote:Is stormtrooper armor MDC armor?
If so what does that make the ewok strength?

Sorry, no conversion allowed in this forums.

MurderCityDisciple wrote:Just rip off the helmet and bash skull with a big rock. I think that tactic would definitely work in Rifts.

That'd be a good tactic indeed.

Depending on what physics your GM permits, homemade thermite should do MD. Some stealth and a little well placed sleight-of-hand can work wonders.
Also, a knowledgable wilderness scout who understands scents and lures could help identify and manufacture a marking scent that would draw predators to a target. After all, nobody says you actually have to do the deed yourself, right?

wyrmraker wrote:Also, a knowledgable wilderness scout who understands scents and lures could help identify and manufacture a marking scent that would draw predators to a target. After all, nobody says you actually have to do the deed yourself, right?

That screams for a Xiticix attack!

mobuttu wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:Also, a knowledgable wilderness scout who understands scents and lures could help identify and manufacture a marking scent that would draw predators to a target. After all, nobody says you actually have to do the deed yourself, right?

That screams for a Xiticix attack!

It's actually a pretty old method. Xiticix are just the latest, most obvious version.
Now imagine a full-conversion combat cyborg getting swamped by a herd of Rhino-Buffalo.

MurderCityDisciple wrote:Is stormtrooper armor MDC armor?
If so what does that make the ewok strength?

IMHO this is asking for an IP conversion, which is a no-no on the boards.

MurderCityDisciple wrote:What are some of the ways a SDC only opponent(s) can take down a MDC body armored badguy?

I assume they can be tackled, stripped of armor and murdered. Poisoned or drowned if it's non-environmental. Psionics that ignore armor. Rammed with a monster truck if it's going fast enough. Dropped from great heights. Mass explosions.

Rifts UE pg355-6 has rules for taking HP/SDC damage when inside MD body armor. A similar set appears in the Original Main Book on pg12. This is from fall/impact/crash/explosion.

They are still vulnerable to Body Flip Throw, Body Block Tackle, Disarm, Entanglement, various holds described, some leg based attacks will still work (like sweep). In this situation you likely are going to target the joints to cause impairment, you may not necessarily damage the armor per say, but you could still yank on a limb hard enough to dislocate it (GM's call if the armor can stop a strangulation maneuver).

Trap Construction skill (CWC pg 62-4/New West pg75-7):
-Pit, Man-Sized can hurt those inside MD body armor
-Tank Trap/Giant pit should also work given they go deeper
-Swinging Log, armor doesn't take damage, but the impact is such the person inside still takes damage
-Rock Slide/Log Fall (does low MD)
-Trip Snare
-Rope Snare
-Net Snare

You also have Avalanche damage as seen in Rifts Canada (pg28).

They are still vulnerable to visibility impairment from smoke, or having something else impair their vision (like paint or mud tossed on the visor/camera). Some of which could force the wearer to open/remove the helmet exposing them to more mundane attacks to get their vision back.

WP Rope and Roping Skill are useful for entangle/pin attacks. Found in RUE pg306-7, Roping is also found in New West on pg71). Could then drag them along, or even have the rope as part of a catapult to fling the MDC clad victim when the catapult is fired. Could also have the rope spun around to generate high g forces to knock them out or kill them (need machine to do the spinning, body armor doesn't list any protection from G-forces). New West also as WP Bola (pg79) can entangle the legs, so it might be useful on other limbs.

From the Rifts Main Book, 90mm recoil-less rifle and a few other heavy weapons do massive SDC (short hand MD, and by rules a sufficient sized burst of SDC from a single weapon can still do minor MD). A sufficient amount of SDC explosives can also do the job (can make homemade explosives (CWC pg 74, though here it is supposed to be an OCC specialty, which I don't see why it would be)). They may not take damage per say, but they could still be buffeted by the impacts of weaker SDC attacks to knock them down/off balance (GM's call).

More a Gm's call, but if they have materials in the body armor or weapons that can be influenced by an electromagnet you could pin/disarm them with a sufficiently strong one. From here you could drop/pick them up repeatedly so they take fall damage. You might even be able to do crush damage in a compactor.

This doesn't get into things like Magic/Psi based attacks, or playing the long game to wait for them to present an opportunity when they would be vulnerable (or making one via say Seduction).

I have always disagreed with 'conventional' weapons doing only large amounts of SDC. In general, if a weapon can liquify or vaporize a human body, it's MD, IMHO.
The proper high explosives, thermite, high velocity rifle rounds (3000 Feet per second at least) tipped with MD-penetrator bullets. Stealth, combined with sneak attacks with vibro-blades on exposed weak points such as hamstrings, hydraulic lines, and wiring.
And last, but not least, is the non-lethal option. Sensors can be fouled with copper and iron filings suspended in paint (about 30% metal filing solution), or just used to blind. Nets, magnetic clamps, and pit traps can all be used.

wyrmraker wrote:I have always disagreed with 'conventional' weapons doing only large amounts of SDC. In general, if a weapon can liquify or vaporize a human body, it's MD, IMHO.
The proper high explosives, thermite, high velocity rifle rounds (3000 Feet per second at least) tipped with MD-penetrator bullets. Stealth, combined with sneak attacks with vibro-blades on exposed weak points such as hamstrings, hydraulic lines, and wiring.
And last, but not least, is the non-lethal option. Sensors can be fouled with copper and iron filings suspended in paint (about 30% metal filing solution), or just used to blind. Nets, magnetic clamps, and pit traps can all be used.

If a weapon can liquify or vaporize a human body...it does hundreds of SDC damage, which DOES mean it does MDC already without conversion.

MurderCityDisciple wrote:What are some of the ways a SDC only opponent(s) can take down a MDC body armored badguy?

I assume they can be tackled, stripped of armor and murdered. Poisoned or drowned if it's non-environmental. Psionics that ignore armor. Rammed with a monster truck if it's going fast enough. Dropped from great heights. Mass explosions.

What about being engulfed in flames for a lengthy period?

What about having limbs torn off by a strong opponent?

What else?
(remember I'm a noob to Rifts)


This could be very helpful stuff.

Whine at the GM until he gets so tired of it the badguy commits suicide.

Another method, depending on the physics allowed, is hydrodynamic compression. By larding the bottom of a pond or river with explosives, anything wading through them that sets off the explosives will be beset with a compressive force far superior to a concussive shockwave in the air.

wyrmraker wrote:Now imagine a full-conversion combat cyborg getting swamped by a herd of Rhino-Buffalo.

Also a mind melter using hypnotic sugestion from a hidden position to make the Rhino-buffalo attack.

wyrmraker wrote:Another method, depending on the physics allowed, is hydrodynamic compression. By larding the bottom of a pond or river with explosives, anything wading through them that sets off the explosives will be beset with a compressive force far superior to a concussive shockwave in the air.

Interesting reasoning for a multiplier of damage.

MurderCityDisciple wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Increase Weight spell till he can't stand or move. Then pile rocks on top of him till he can't move. Then wait a few days, weeks. He will ether be dead of can't stop you from taking said armor

I'm too lazy to gather rocks...in this case I'd park a truck on him or I'd chain hoist him up a tree til he starves.

Truck to light park a SDC tank on him something like 60 tons.

Druging them or get them drunk tell they pass out then hold their head underwater tell the bubles stop. (might also work with nero mace.)

Tie them up throw them in the back of a cement truck full of wet cement then let it dry as you drive it to the ocean then take a long drive offf a short pear.

Fill his air way with fast dring SDC adhisive

Strap him to a SDC rocket and shoot him in space.

shoot SDC bullets in his air bath tell he stops breathing (probaly requires tieing hi down.)

If they are SDC in MDC armor you could just throw them off a cliff or out a plane the fall whould do the rest.
If SDC under the armor suduce the pants off them and then shoot them.

Noon wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:Now imagine a full-conversion combat cyborg getting swamped by a herd of Rhino-Buffalo.

Also a mind melter using hypnotic sugestion from a hidden position to make the Rhino-buffalo attack.

sadly, not possible... you use the power, then say the suggestion... unless you speak rhino-buffalo, it's not gonna do you an awful lot of good.

(it is rather unfortunate imo that mind melters tend to not be very good at affecting people's minds compared to a ley line walker that knows the right spells, but that is unfortunately the way things are)

Noon wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:Now imagine a full-conversion combat cyborg getting swamped by a herd of Rhino-Buffalo.

Also a mind melter using hypnotic sugestion from a hidden position to make the Rhino-buffalo attack.

wyrmraker wrote:Another method, depending on the physics allowed, is hydrodynamic compression. By larding the bottom of a pond or river with explosives, anything wading through them that sets off the explosives will be beset with a compressive force far superior to a concussive shockwave in the air.

Interesting reasoning for a multiplier of damage.

It's actually real physics.
"The overall effect of an underwater explosion depends on depth, the size and nature of the explosive charge, and the presence, composition and distance of reflecting surfaces such as the seabed, surface, thermoclines, etc. This phenomenon has been extensively used in antiship warhead design since an underwater explosion (particularly one underneath a hull) can produce greater damage than an above-surface one of the same explosive size. Initial damage to a target will be caused by the first shockwave; this damage will be amplified by the subsequent physical movement of water and by the repeated secondary shockwaves or bubble pulse. Additionally, charge detonation away from the target can result in damage over a larger hull area."
This is the real reason why limpet mines planted on a ship's hull does so much damage.

Shark_Force wrote:

Noon wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:Now imagine a full-conversion combat cyborg getting swamped by a herd of Rhino-Buffalo.

Also a mind melter using hypnotic sugestion from a hidden position to make the Rhino-buffalo attack.

sadly, not possible... you use the power, then say the suggestion... unless you speak rhino-buffalo, it's not gonna do you an awful lot of good.

Yes, you have to speak.

That you have to speak in the targets language, there's nothing in the text requiring that. Sure, you can house rule that way, or insist that was the authors intent and you must follow (your guess as to) the authors intent - but it sounds like you don't even like a MM being restricted in thier mental manipulation, so I'm not sure why you'd house rule that way.

wyrmraker wrote:It's actually real physics.

Things being real physics doesn't make them a cannon rule in the game.

And I wasn't being sarcastic, it is interesting reasoning, one which I might make up house rules for in my game at some point.

wyrmraker wrote:

Noon wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:Now imagine a full-conversion combat cyborg getting swamped by a herd of Rhino-Buffalo.

Also a mind melter using hypnotic sugestion from a hidden position to make the Rhino-buffalo attack.

wyrmraker wrote:Another method, depending on the physics allowed, is hydrodynamic compression. By larding the bottom of a pond or river with explosives, anything wading through them that sets off the explosives will be beset with a compressive force far superior to a concussive shockwave in the air.

Interesting reasoning for a multiplier of damage.

It's actually real physics.
"The overall effect of an underwater explosion depends on depth, the size and nature of the explosive charge, and the presence, composition and distance of reflecting surfaces such as the seabed, surface, thermoclines, etc. This phenomenon has been extensively used in antiship warhead design since an underwater explosion (particularly one underneath a hull) can produce greater damage than an above-surface one of the same explosive size. Initial damage to a target will be caused by the first shockwave; this damage will be amplified by the subsequent physical movement of water and by the repeated secondary shockwaves or bubble pulse. Additionally, charge detonation away from the target can result in damage over a larger hull area."


This is the real reason why limpet mines planted on a ship's hull does so much damage.

In rifts underwater explosives are a flat modifer.

Noon wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:

Noon wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:Now imagine a full-conversion combat cyborg getting swamped by a herd of Rhino-Buffalo.

Also a mind melter using hypnotic sugestion from a hidden position to make the Rhino-buffalo attack.

sadly, not possible... you use the power, then say the suggestion... unless you speak rhino-buffalo, it's not gonna do you an awful lot of good.

Yes, you have to speak.

That you have to speak in the targets language, there's nothing in the text requiring that. Sure, you can house rule that way, or insist that was the authors intent and you must follow (your guess as to) the authors intent - but it sounds like you don't even like a MM being restricted in thier mental manipulation, so I'm not sure why you'd house rule that way.

just because i don't like it, doesn't mean that the rules don't say it.

if an answer is based on your personal houserules, you should say so. if your answer is based on extremely questionable literal interpretations of the rules as written, you should also mention that, because playing palladium with the rules as written leads to some rather odd complications that i'm pretty sure the vast majority of people on these forums don't want to put up with.

for the purpose of discussions on the boards, i personally try to either reference the official rules, or include language that shows i'm using a house rule, or both. in the event that the official rule sounds extremely dodgy, i'll usually make a point of mentioning that (usually then suggesting a ruling to use instead, either for that specific situation or to cover situations of the type in general). i'm not perfect at it or anything, but i try... and for the most part, i recommend that policy for others, too, because it's the only reasonable common basis to work from.

Blue_Lion wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:

Noon wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:Now imagine a full-conversion combat cyborg getting swamped by a herd of Rhino-Buffalo.

Also a mind melter using hypnotic sugestion from a hidden position to make the Rhino-buffalo attack.

wyrmraker wrote:Another method, depending on the physics allowed, is hydrodynamic compression. By larding the bottom of a pond or river with explosives, anything wading through them that sets off the explosives will be beset with a compressive force far superior to a concussive shockwave in the air.

Interesting reasoning for a multiplier of damage.

It's actually real physics.
"The overall effect of an underwater explosion depends on depth, the size and nature of the explosive charge, and the presence, composition and distance of reflecting surfaces such as the seabed, surface, thermoclines, etc. This phenomenon has been extensively used in antiship warhead design since an underwater explosion (particularly one underneath a hull) can produce greater damage than an above-surface one of the same explosive size. Initial damage to a target will be caused by the first shockwave; this damage will be amplified by the subsequent physical movement of water and by the repeated secondary shockwaves or bubble pulse. Additionally, charge detonation away from the target can result in damage over a larger hull area."


This is the real reason why limpet mines planted on a ship's hull does so much damage.

In rifts underwater explosives are a flat modifer.

After looking through CS Navy, I can now see the modifiers that are used for explosives underwater. Underwhelming, given the physics involved, but the rules are the rules. Apparently, for the most part, you add a die to the multiplier (2d6x10 on the surface becomes 3d6x10 underwater, for example). Given the large pressure front possible for multiple charges underwater, a proper set of explosives could easily overcome the pressure threshold on just about everything short of massive vehicles.
Oh well.

Gryphon wrote:So what would be the damage of a Heavy Torpedo that normally does 1D4x100? 2D4x100?! Ack, that's nasty!

Actually, that would be the listed damage for underwater. However a Long Range Missile Warhead underwater...

While I imagine that MDC is generally proof against chemical attack, I kind of like to believe that something like this stuff would take issue with the "immune to SDC damage" thing...

Shark_Force wrote:just because i don't like it, doesn't mean that the rules don't say it.

Where does that end? If for some reason you think casting firebolt requires using up a physical component, are you gunna say 'Just because I don't like it doesn't mean the rules don't say it'? The hypnosis rules also don't say you need a pink elephant use the power. That means you do?

What I think you should be doing is stating that you think you can somehow piece together what is present in the text to arrive at some words that are absent from the text - you can do this so well you can know what the author was thinking, without the author even writing it down for you. Without asking.

Once you've made the claim, others can decide if they go along with that claim, or not.

That seems to me the reasonable common basis to work from. I don't think others just have to work around what extra-textual conclusions you draw from the present text.

Going with the water analogy again, wouldn't a SDC Operator, Psi-Tek, or Techno-Wizard be able to connect an electrical source to contacts in the water? Such as car batteries, linked to a switch?
I understand that MDC armor will probably resist it, but what about MD creatures? How resistant would they actually be to 10 Amps in the water?

Gryphon wrote:But you do have to speak, as in convey a specific intent

This is your invention.

Maybe you don't want to play it out that way. I'd say fair enough on not wanting to (though I'm confused by those who want mind melters with mind manipulation powers that are stronger, but who also don't want to play it out this way).

But if you're saying this is in the actual text, no, it isn't. Try writing a some programming code and skip writing the 'understands language' requirement. The code interpreter wont somehow make a language requirement come to pass without you having to have coded it in.

If you want to say you were guesstimating, okay. If you want to say it's not present in the text but you don't want to play it that way, that's fine.

But it sounds like you're saying it IS there in the text. This would be being under an illusion.

Cast "Giant" on the target, then immediately cancel the spell. It will rip the body armor right off of him.

Noon wrote:

Gryphon wrote:But you do have to speak, as in convey a specific intent

This is your invention.

Maybe you don't want to play it out that way. I'd say fair enough on not wanting to (though I'm confused by those who want mind melters with mind manipulation powers that are stronger, but who also don't want to play it out this way).

But if you're saying this is in the actual text, no, it isn't. Try writing a some programming code and skip writing the 'understands language' requirement. The code interpreter wont somehow make a language requirement come to pass without you having to have coded it in.

If you want to say you were guesstimating, okay. If you want to say it's not present in the text but you don't want to play it that way, that's fine.

But it sounds like you're saying it IS there in the text. This would be being under an illusion.

again, wanting more powerful psionics doesn't mean we can change the goal posts for discussion. it simply doesn't enter into the equation. we're not discussing house rules on how to do things, because those simply aren't something that can be reasonably relied on as applicable to everyone.

if i answered the OP with "oh, that's easy, MDC doesn't exist", then i would expect people to ignore that, because it's a completely useless waste of time for me to have ever mentioned that in the context of a discussion about this subject on these forums. the OP isn't looking for house rules, and i'm pretty sure he isn't asking about extremely suspect rule loophole exploits either... if that was the purpose, it would have been mentioned.

"you have to say something, but the subject doesn't have to understand it" is complete and utter rubbish. it's so obviously not how the power was intended to work that it doesn't even bear discussion.

and while i or anyone else on the forums might wish the power worked differently, that won't change what the rules in the book says.

and the only reasonable basis for discussion is that we're not all simultaneously using everyone's house rules without even knowing what they are.

you can do whatever you want in your own games. you can start by mentioning "i have a house rule that..." or "in my games, we have tweaked the rule so that..." or something similar. but it's not a valid basis for conversation here on these forums to presume that everyone already knows and uses your house rules (or alternately, that they fail to use a blindingly obvious interpretation of the rules, such as "you have to say something that the target will understand in order for the target to do what you tell them to do".)

Hypnotic suggestion is psionically augmented hypnosis.
Hypnosis requires the subject to understand your suggestions in order for your suggestions to work.
That's really all there is to it.

Telepathy doesn't go into whether or not the mental energies can overcome a language barrier. GM ruling.

And I still need to know more about the town and it's surroundings before I can make a proper estimate for the scenario.

Wyrm: I'd say that as a GM ruling, that's fine, but from a RAW perspective it doesn't say you have empathy - you have telepathy. You know their thoughts. Their thoughts are in a language. If that language is not one you share, then you don't understand them.

Subjugator wrote:Wyrm: I'd say that as a GM ruling, that's fine, but from a RAW perspective it doesn't say you have empathy - you have telepathy. You know their thoughts. Their thoughts are in a language. If that language is not one you share, then you don't understand them.

Sorry, I didn't properly phrase that. I meant to say that it would come down to a GM ruling.

A lot of these tactics could be helped with a neural mace.

Shark_Force wrote:(or alternately, that they fail to use a blindingly obvious interpretation of the rules, such as "you have to say something that the target will understand in order for the target to do what you tell them to do".)

I know, it's as obvious as the triangle in this picture.

They should really teach in schools about ambiguous texts, how they act in much the same way as the picture above, invoking the reader to form a conclusion that isn't actually present in what is seen.

I'll describe it in a dungeon scenario sense - you're trapped in a dungeon room. You are passing on the hypnosis text to someone outside the room. You can choose A: to say they will interpret it that the subject must understand the language. But if they don't interpret it that way, your room floods with water and you drown. OR B: you can choose to say they might possibly read it as not requiring the subject to understand the language. Whether they do that or say something else, you get to go free either way if you choose B. You have no idea how literal this other person is - they might be as literal as a programming language interpreter in how they read.

Now, if you're adamant enough about what it definately says enough to choose A, I admire your chutzpah.

Noon wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:(or alternately, that they fail to use a blindingly obvious interpretation of the rules, such as "you have to say something that the target will understand in order for the target to do what you tell them to do".)

I know, it's as obvious as the triangle in this picture.

They should really teach in schools about ambiguous texts, how they act in much the same way as the picture above, invoking the reader to form a conclusion that isn't actually present in what is seen.

I'll describe it in a dungeon scenario sense - you're trapped in a dungeon room. You are passing on the hypnosis text to someone outside the room. You can choose A: to say they will interpret it that the subject must understand the language. But if they don't interpret it that way, your room floods with water and you drown. OR B: you can choose to say they might possibly read it as not requiring the subject to understand the language. Whether they do that or say something else, you get to go free either way if you choose B. You have no idea how literal this other person is - they might be as literal as a programming language interpreter in how they read.

Now, if you're adamant enough about what it definately says enough to choose A, I admire your chutzpah.

I am. Have you ever heard of Occam's Razor?

Wikipedia - Occam's Razor wrote:It states that among competing hypotheses, the one that makes the fewest assumptions should be selected.

Our assumption requires only that we review the language specifically used in the statement. Your assumption assumes that something exists in addition to that which is presented in the text. You, as a GM making a ruling, can decide that it is such, but when one is making a canonical reference, one must only act as if the words in the text exist.

In the item you present, the problem is with the situation that is presented or the proposed solution being Hypnosis, not the rules.

/Sub

Not exactly an SDC weapon (depending on your definitions), but this ought to do the trick...