Mechanical expert question

[Nightmask]

Power armor should be within the reach of the Hardware: Mechanical expert, if anything they would seem to be the class most suited to making/repairing such armor (just have to select the appropriate skill programs to round out the electrical engineering needs).

[Cybermancer]

It actually seems more like a job for an Analytical Genius. In fact in the budget for that class it says they can build a modest exosuit. But I'd still allow it in certain games.

[Snake Eyes]

I would allow it......

[Jay05]

That's one of the few loopholes where you can sort of fudge on the "No dual class" thing. If a guy can build it which I agree the HW class should, he could also use it. Thus becoming a robot/PA pilot without sacrificing his Hardware class techie skills.

[Nightmask]

That's one of the few loopholes where you can sort of fudge on the "No dual class" thing. If a guy can build it which I agree the HW class should, he could also use it. Thus becoming a robot/PA pilot without sacrificing his Hardware class techie skills.

Well it would be more than a bit ridiculous to have it that a hardware expert couldn't pilot the power armor he just built (especially the Hardware: Analytical), particularly given it's not that uncommon for comics and novels to present what's basically a hardware expert having ended up as the pilot of his newly built power armor/robot for one reason or another (often to keep it out of nefarious hands). Especially when he'd probably use various elements separately so why wouldn't he naturally put them all together into one package? While many wouldn't also be able to pilot the armor they built some certainly should be able to.

[Jay05]

That's one of the few loopholes where you can sort of fudge on the "No dual class" thing. If a guy can build it which I agree the HW class should, he could also use it. Thus becoming a robot/PA pilot without sacrificing his Hardware class techie skills.

Well it would be more than a bit ridiculous to have it that a hardware expert couldn't pilot the power armor he just built (especially the Hardware: Analytical), particularly given it's not that uncommon for comics and novels to present what's basically a hardware expert having ended up as the pilot of his newly built power armor/robot for one reason or another (often to keep it out of nefarious hands). Especially when he'd probably use various elements separately so why wouldn't he naturally put them all together into one package? While many wouldn't also be able to pilot the armor they built some certainly should be able to.

you just reiterated my point

[Regularguy]

you just reiterated my point

I don't think he did. Or, if he did, I'd like to make the point I sure thought he was making.

You suggested fudging the dual-class rules so a Hardware guy could operate what he just built; he says it's ridiculous to think the Hardware: Analytical genius needs any fudging. The whole point of that character is his two-pronged "knack for building and using machines."

When it comes to "robotics or bionics, including robot vehicles and exoskeletons," this guy already knows "how to use them, how they work, and how to build/duplicate one." Really look at his Analyze and Operate Devices skill: "This skill can be used to operate a pair of Russian nightvision goggles or a Chinese fighter jet, an alien power engine or anything in between." So it's not merely that he can construct "just about anything"; he can pilot it too.

Why fudge when you can fly?

[Jay05]

you just reiterated my point

I don't think he did. Or, if he did, I'd like to make the point I sure thought he was making.

You suggested fudging the dual-class rules so a Hardware guy could operate what he just built; he says it's ridiculous to think the Hardware: Analytical genius needs any fudging. The whole point of that character is his two-pronged "knack for building and using machines."

When it comes to "robotics or bionics, including robot vehicles and exoskeletons," this guy already knows "how to use them, how they work, and how to build/duplicate one." Really look at his Analyze and Operate Devices skill: "This skill can be used to operate a pair of Russian nightvision goggles or a Chinese fighter jet, an alien power engine or anything in between." So it's not merely that he can construct "just about anything"; he can pilot it too.

Why fudge when you can fly?

No. I did not suggest fudging was necessary, if using fudging in that context led to misunderstanding, let me clarify. According to the RAW, which have been argued ad nausium on these boards, dual classing in PB games is a no go except under very specific circumstances. This being the case, there are a few classes such as the above HW/power armor or robot pilot combo that lend themselves to effectively dual class without breaking the rules. Another example of the same situation would be an Ancient Master or Phys training who acquire a magic weapon or item per the classes of those names. In all the above cases you are in essence dual classing, but staying well within the style and intent of the original classes. in this example, 1. Hardware 2.Ancient Master, 3. Phys Training.

[green.nova343]

About the only way I would see that is by essentially considering the Hardware character a "Mega" Hero... but rather than the standard Mega-Hero rules (i.e. supernatural PS & enhanced attributes, a "weakness", etc.), the character is essentially set up as a sort of uber-genius.

Of course, the thing to remember is that advancement should be slower than other heroes. The guy who's a literal genius with building tech that then gets to wade into combat with a powerful exoskeleton has the potential to skew the power level a bit. But it is Heroes Unlimited, so I say go for it if you want to.

[Jay05]

About the only way I would see that is by essentially considering the Hardware character a "Mega" Hero... but rather than the standard Mega-Hero rules (i.e. supernatural PS & enhanced attributes, a "weakness", etc.), the character is essentially set up as a sort of uber-genius.

Of course, the thing to remember is that advancement should be slower than other heroes. The guy who's a literal genius with building tech that then gets to wade into combat with a powerful exoskeleton has the potential to skew the power level a bit. But it is Heroes Unlimited, so I say go for it if you want to.

While I'd agree that that it would effectively make the PC a Mega-Hero, and might necessitate using the proper Exp table I don't see how it could possibly skew the power level if Mega-Heroes are allowed in the game. Seems about even to me.

[Nightmask]

About the only way I would see that is by essentially considering the Hardware character a "Mega" Hero... but rather than the standard Mega-Hero rules (i.e. supernatural PS & enhanced attributes, a "weakness", etc.), the character is essentially set up as a sort of uber-genius.

Of course, the thing to remember is that advancement should be slower than other heroes. The guy who's a literal genius with building tech that then gets to wade into combat with a powerful exoskeleton has the potential to skew the power level a bit. But it is Heroes Unlimited, so I say go for it if you want to.

Not really. What real difference is there between the power armor pilot who absconded with a prototype and the Hardware: Mechanical who built his own? None really, it's even possible for the power armor pilot to have all skills necessary to make a suit himself. The Hardware sort is certainly the better of the two when it comes to making/repairing power armor and robots but in regards to actual game activity the two are engaging in pretty much the same heroics and using similar gear. If you had a group with a dedicated Robot pilot and a Hardware sort who also had power armor they'd still be pretty much equal and productive group members without overshadowing each other.

[green.nova343]

While I'd agree that that it would effectively make the PC a Mega-Hero, and might necessitate using the proper Exp table I don't see how it could possibly skew the power level if Mega-Heroes are allowed in the game. Seems about even to me.

If Mega-Heroes are involved, then it doesn't skew the power level. And I would also agree that, if they're going to combine 2 categories as an ersatz Mega-Hero, then they should be using the Mega-Hero table.

What I was referring to, however, was that I think sometimes players (& also GMs) forget that they not only run into problems making a campaign or adventure interesting if the character is overly powerful, but it makes it harder for that character to advance.

Consider, if you will, Iron Man (whether comic book or movie version). Both Tony Stark & Jim Rhodes wore the Iron Man armor, which means they both had the benefit of the power boost the suit provided (both with weapon systems & enhanced attributes). But while Rhodes had his military/security background that could potentially give him a tactical advantage in straight combat, Stark's genius intellect meant he was also formidable in situations that required analytical thinking, especially situations where he had to quickly adapt or even modify in the field his suit systems for a particular situation -- or even just making field repairs (like in Secret Wars: Stark could have repaired his damaged armor himself, but since Rhodes was wearing it he had to depend on Reed Richards to fix it for him).

About the only way I would see that is by essentially considering the Hardware character a "Mega" Hero... but rather than the standard Mega-Hero rules (i.e. supernatural PS & enhanced attributes, a "weakness", etc.), the character is essentially set up as a sort of uber-genius.

Of course, the thing to remember is that advancement should be slower than other heroes. The guy who's a literal genius with building tech that then gets to wade into combat with a powerful exoskeleton has the potential to skew the power level a bit. But it is Heroes Unlimited, so I say go for it if you want to.

Not really. What real difference is there between the power armor pilot who absconded with a prototype and the Hardware: Mechanical who built his own? None really, it's even possible for the power armor pilot to have all skills necessary to make a suit himself. The Hardware sort is certainly the better of the two when it comes to making/repairing power armor and robots but in regards to actual game activity the two are engaging in pretty much the same heroics and using similar gear. If you had a group with a dedicated Robot pilot and a Hardware sort who also had power armor they'd still be pretty much equal and productive group members without overshadowing each other.

The only issue is that the PIlot Robots and Power Armor skill, at least in HU2, is only available to the Robotics: Robot Pilot character...which has a specific skill set. Now, if you want to pick that as the character's base education, & trade one of the skill programs for the Hardware: Mechanical or Electrical special skills, that's fine. But there's going to be a cost somewhere for doing that. Again, for every Tony Stark that builds & pilots his exoskeleton, there's a Jim Rhodes that pilots but can't build. Not to mention that the Hardware characters are the only ones, IIRC, allowed to know Robot Mechanics & Electronics. So a regular robot pilot isn't trained in building his suit.

[Regularguy]

The only issue is that the PIlot Robots and Power Armor skill, at least in HU2, is only available to the Robotics: Robot Pilot character

Again, the Hardware (Analytical) hero has a skill for piloting anything; robots and power armor are as easy for him to operate as a Chinese fighter jet.

Not to mention that the Hardware characters are the only ones, IIRC, allowed to know Robot Mechanics & Electronics. So a regular robot pilot isn't trained in building his suit.

No, the Robot program is available to anyone with a Master's degree or a Doctorate -- whether he's a Physical Training guy or the wielder of an Enchanted Object or an Experiment with the Supersoldier Option or whatever -- sure as an Alien can of course take Robot Mechanics and Robot Electronics with or without going the Hardware route, despite not having the usual education options. (And how awesome would it be for an Artificial Life Form/Robot Alien to have those skills while seeing herself as a hippie-chick naturalist relying on holistic medicine?)

[Regularguy]

Again, for every Tony Stark that builds & pilots his exoskeleton, there's a Jim Rhodes that pilots but can't build. Not to mention that the Hardware characters are the only ones, IIRC, allowed to know Robot Mechanics & Electronics. So a regular robot pilot isn't trained in building his suit.

On further review, I'm loving the idea of husband-and-wife Robot Pilots: one has Robot Mechanics, the other Robot Electronics; they built the suits together, and now handle assorted repairs solo in between solving every other problem with teamwork...

[Nightmask]

Again, for every Tony Stark that builds & pilots his exoskeleton, there's a Jim Rhodes that pilots but can't build. Not to mention that the Hardware characters are the only ones, IIRC, allowed to know Robot Mechanics & Electronics. So a regular robot pilot isn't trained in building his suit.

On further review, I'm loving the idea of husband-and-wife Robot Pilots: one has Robot Mechanics, the other Robot Electronics; they built the suits together, and now handle assorted repairs solo in between solving every other problem with teamwork...

That makes little sense though, the two skills are part of a package you don't generally go learning the one without learning the other at the same time. There isn't any reason why they wouldn't have both and simply work together, or even have both and work separately each in a friendly rivalry to show how he/she can produce the 'better' power armor for fighting crime (with or without stereotypical gender-segregated themes for the power armor).

[Regularguy]

That makes little sense though, the two skills are part of a package you don't generally go learning the one without learning the other at the same time. There isn't any reason why they wouldn't have both and simply work together

Sure there is; as far as I can tell, the Robot Pilot as written can start play with Robot Mechanics or Robot Electronics, but not both. (You're talking about the Robot program; I'm talking about the Electrical program and the Mechanics/Vehicles program.) Same story if you've got two Stage Magicians, or two Super Sleuths, or two Military Specialists: one can play mechanic, the other can handle the electronics; between the two of 'em they have robotics covered; working solo, they've at best only got half the answers.

[green.nova343]

The only issue is that the PIlot Robots and Power Armor skill, at least in HU2, is only available to the Robotics: Robot Pilot character

Again, the Hardware (Analytical) hero has a skill for piloting anything; robots and power armor are as easy for him to operate as a Chinese fighter jet.

Not to mention that the Hardware characters are the only ones, IIRC, allowed to know Robot Mechanics & Electronics. So a regular robot pilot isn't trained in building his suit.

No, the Robot program is available to anyone with a Master's degree or a Doctorate -- whether he's a Physical Training guy or the wielder of an Enchanted Object or an Experiment with the Supersoldier Option or whatever -- sure as an Alien can of course take Robot Mechanics and Robot Electronics with or without going the Hardware route, despite not having the usual education options. (And how awesome would it be for an Artificial Life Form/Robot Alien to have those skills while seeing herself as a hippie-chick naturalist relying on holistic medicine?)

Update after looking back at HU2:

In order to build/repair a robot vehicle or exoskeleton, you have some options available:
-- Hardware: Electrical (has Robot Electronics automatically) or Mechanical (has the choice of Aircraft Mechanics or Robot Mechanics in their base skills)
-- Hardware: Analytical comes with both automatically
-- Roll the Master's or Ph.D option on the Education table
-- Note that, unless you fudge the rules a bit, that no Alien characters get that option

In order to pilot them, however, you only have two options:
-- Hardware: Analytical can use his analyze skill. However, he has a -15% for advanced items such as robotics, which means he'll max out at 83% for his rolls (and at 1st level is likely to be at maybe 65-70% depending on his IQ bonus). And that's assuming that you allow the "figures out how to operate it" means the same thing "you can pilot the item while sitting in its control seat". However, he also has to take 2-8 hours of studying it before he can make his first attempt to figure it out, or he'll have additional penalties on top of that. It also means he has to do this every time he comes across a new design (which, in the HU2 universe, pretty much means any robot vehicle/PA suit, since they're primarily one-offs). Exoskeletons are quite possibly another matter; although they're technically S.D.C. PA suits, it seems like they're a little lower level (since a lot of SCRET-style agencies make them available for agents & operatives that aren't robot pilot heroes). The problem there, however, is that the Analytical Genius has figured out how to pilot that particular suit...but doesn't have any combat bonuses. That's left to...
-- Option 2: The Robotics Hero: Robot Pilot option. They are the only character that gets the bonuses from robot combat training. Not to mention they're the only character with the Pilot Robot Vehicles (All) skill. That's right, that particular hero can pilot any robot suit automatically, even alien suits (albeit with a -50% penalty), and get combat bonuses to boot. However, their education is very specific: Computer program, Pilot: Advanced program, & 1 of choice, but they're considered "special training"...which would be equivalent to Trade School, but not a Master's degree, let alone Ph.D.

So, the robot pilot category can pilot them (& do so much better than anyone else), but can't fix them. Other characters can fix & even build them, but only the Analytical Genius has even a prayer of piloting...& he has to spend pretty much an entire day studying it. Oh, & not to mention that when they say the Analytical Genius can build a "basic" exoskeleton, they're not kidding about the "basic" part. Just to even have a basic exoskeleton (base 225 SDC, base A.R. 6, no flight systems, basic radar/video/audio systems, no built-in weapons, PS & SPD 20 so that frame reinforcement isn't needed) without a power system costs over $1 million...and most of the Analytical Geniuses have a "super-vehicle" budget much less than that (max is $4 million, but the mid-range is maybe $800,000 to $1.2 million). Super-Solar costs $1 million & the micro-fusion costs $4.3 million. So, unless you want a diesel-powered exoskeleton, or are willing to give up any souped-up body armor suits (they can add 40 S.D.C. to everyday clothes or add 10% to existing body armor without any movement penalties, & do so very cheaply) or other gadgets, the Analytical Genius will not be starting with an Iron Man-style suit...& may end up having to have a very rich agency bankroll him to even do so.

Which goes back to my original point that, if you want a Tony Stark-type character that can both kick butt in his super-powered PA suit and has the tools & talents to perform his own maintenance & upgrades, you can't really do it with a "regular" character; you need a Mega-Hero equivalent that combines both categories to do so.

[Regularguy]

In order to build/repair a robot vehicle or exoskeleton, you have some options available:
-- Hardware: Electrical (has Robot Electronics automatically) or Mechanical (has the choice of Aircraft Mechanics or Robot Mechanics in their base skills)
-- Hardware: Analytical comes with both automatically
-- Roll the Master's or Ph.D option on the Education table
-- Note that, unless you fudge the rules a bit, that no Alien characters get that option

I'm not fudging the rules a bit; the Alien education table includes an 86-00 Engineer option, which lets you select "six skills from the combined categories of electronics and mechanical," with a skill bonus of +25%. I don't see any rule prohibiting such a character from taking both Robot Electronics and Robot Mechanics.

You've likewise overlooked the possibility that a guy with Trade School education -- or One or Two or Three or Four Years of College, or a Bachelor's Degree -- can take both the Electrical and the Mechanics, Vehicles program, getting Robot Electronics from the former and Robot Mechanics from the latter.

Hardware: Analytical can use his analyze skill. However, he has a -15% for advanced items such as robotics, which means he'll max out at 83% for his rolls

No, he's a Hardware character; that skill can go over 100% for purposes of countering penalties.

However, their education is very specific: Computer program, Pilot: Advanced program, & 1 of choice, but they're considered "special training"...which would be equivalent to Trade School, but not a Master's degree, let alone Ph.D.

So, the robot pilot category can pilot them (& do so much better than anyone else), but can't fix them.

Just use that "1 of choice" for Mechanics, Vehicles and he can start play with Robot Mechanics: "A comprehensive knowledge and ability to repair, maintain, build, and modify robots, including androids, and bionic/robotic limbs and exoskeletons."

[Nightmask]

In order to build/repair a robot vehicle or exoskeleton, you have some options available:
-- Hardware: Electrical (has Robot Electronics automatically) or Mechanical (has the choice of Aircraft Mechanics or Robot Mechanics in their base skills)
-- Hardware: Analytical comes with both automatically
-- Roll the Master's or Ph.D option on the Education table
-- Note that, unless you fudge the rules a bit, that no Alien characters get that option

I'm not fudging the rules a bit; the Alien education table includes an 86-00 Engineer option, which lets you select "six skills from the combined categories of electronics and mechanical," with a skill bonus of +25%. I don't see any rule prohibiting such a character from taking both Robot Electronics and Robot Mechanics.

You've likewise overlooked the possibility that a guy with Trade School education -- or One or Two or Three or Four Years of College, or a Bachelor's Degree -- can take both the Electrical and the Mechanics, Vehicles program, getting Robot Electronics from the former and Robot Mechanics from the latter.

Reminds me of Fabian Stankowitz when he was introduced attacking the Avengers with a vehicle that transformed into a big robot battlesuit. He clearly wasn't a doctorate level Robotics Engineer (compared to what those sorts can build in the MU) but was also clearly well educated in Robotics, the idea he took a path like this one seems quite in keeping with the idea of a guy who can with time build a robot but it won't (generally) match what a doctorate level sort can pull off (just by dint of being able to make the more difficult success rolls).

[Regularguy]

In order to build/repair a robot vehicle or exoskeleton, you have some options available ... In order to pilot them, however, you only have two options

I don't think that's quite right. Look at what you just wrote there: "a robot vehicle or exoskeleton".

So, okay, I'm on the Robot Construction page with Body Frames, Size, & Style. First off are the Humanoid Body Styles, which need no introduction. But then come the Vehicular Body Styles, with options for Sports Car and Mid-Sized Sedan and so on; install a fuel-injected engine and some automotive-size wheels, and throw in additional speed if you're so inclined.

I figure a guy could pilot that robot vehicle with, say, Pilot: Automobile and Pilot: Race Car; that's what it does, that's what it is. You could likewise go with a body style that "resembles a tank or an armored personnel carrier": put the treads here, mount a machinegun there, slap on some extra armor plating, and you're all set to use Pilot: Tanks and APCs along with Weapon Systems, right? You'd maybe spring for the Combat Computer and some Voice Actuated Controls, but it's still the same thing.

Same thing if you build a hover jet system into a vehicular style robot; you need a skill that lets you pilot a hover vehicle, but so what? It's as easy as throwing in underwater capabilities and a skill for piloting submersibles, no matter that it started off built like a compact car.

So what happens when -- as per the rules -- you mount a couple of arms and hands on the vehicle?

[stankind]

In order to build/repair a robot vehicle or exoskeleton, you have some options available ... In order to pilot them, however, you only have two options

I don't think that's quite right. Look at what you just wrote there: "a robot vehicle or exoskeleton".

So, okay, I'm on the Robot Construction page with Body Frames, Size, & Style. First off are the Humanoid Body Styles, which need no introduction. But then come the Vehicular Body Styles, with options for Sports Car and Mid-Sized Sedan and so on; install a fuel-injected engine and some automotive-size wheels, and throw in additional speed if you're so inclined.

I figure a guy could pilot that robot vehicle with, say, Pilot: Automobile and Pilot: Race Car; that's what it does, that's what it is. You could likewise go with a body style that "resembles a tank or an armored personnel carrier": put the treads here, mount a machinegun there, slap on some extra armor plating, and you're all set to use Pilot: Tanks and APCs along with Weapon Systems, right? You'd maybe spring for the Combat Computer and some Voice Actuated Controls, but it's still the same thing.

Same thing if you build a hover jet system into a vehicular style robot; you need a skill that lets you pilot a hover vehicle, but so what? It's as easy as throwing in underwater capabilities and a skill for piloting submersibles, no matter that it started off built like a compact car.

So what happens when -- as per the rules -- you mount a couple of arms and hands on the vehicle?

I would rule that you could still pilot this vehicle with the associated skills as you list above.
However, the arms and hands would not be practical for combat unless the pilot also has the Pilot Robot skill.

Essentially, the robot's arms and hands would be used as simple tools (like the arms of an underwater exploration vehicle).
If this pilot were to try to attempt combat without the Pilot Robot skill, I would rule it as having 2 attacks per melee and -2 to strike (using it untrained).

Otherwise, it is one nifty vehicle.

[Regularguy]

Coming back around, I'm curious.

Say you're playing a PhD: you take the Robot program, and the Physical program, and so on; you have Robot Mechanics and Robot Electronics, and for power category -- Enchanted Object? Psionics?

Heck, no.

You're going with Bionics.

And so you've got a Reinforced Exoskeleton -- from your spine and shoulders to your hands and wrists, and your feet and ankles -- complete with a full suite of armored plates: chest, abdomen, arms, hips, legs, neck, head, all of it. Do you need a piloting skill to operate that exoskeleton, or can you simply run and gun like a pro in between wrestling and boxing with various opponents for the win?

I mean, yes, sure, if you're going to use a jetpack to fly around while blasting away with exterior forearm weapons while ironclad, I of course recommend taking the Pilot: Advanced program. But what, if anything, do you need to excel in your exoskeleton?

[stankind]

Coming back around, I'm curious.

Say you're playing a PhD: you take the Robot program, and the Physical program, and so on; you have Robot Mechanics and Robot Electronics, and for power category -- Enchanted Object? Psionics?

Heck, no.

You're going with Bionics.

And so you've got a Reinforced Exoskeleton -- from your spine and shoulders to your hands and wrists, and your feet and ankles -- complete with a full suite of armored plates: chest, abdomen, arms, hips, legs, neck, head, all of it. Do you need a piloting skill to operate that exoskeleton, or can you simply run and gun like a pro in between wrestling and boxing with various opponents for the win?

I mean, yes, sure, if you're going to use a jetpack to fly around while blasting away with exterior forearm weapons while ironclad, I of course recommend taking the Pilot: Advanced program. But what, if anything, do you need to excel in your exoskeleton?

Bionics are different than Robotics in the major sense that the bionics are grafted onto (or into in alot of cases) your natural body.
The bionics themselves most likely processors and sensors that respond to your character's reactions most like your character's body should.
Hence, other than getting accustomed to your new bionics (which by itself is sort of a piloting skill ), there isn't another vehicle that you are piloting.

Robots, including power armor and battlesuits, are separate vehicles that react to their own controls and sensors to act as the stimuli which its processors must then account for. This makes robots (other than sentient), power armor and battlesuits more akin to vehicles.

This is why I agree that a robot built as a vehicle can still use the base vehicle's piloting skill. Also, this is why piloting robots is its own separate and specialized skill.

As an aside, I house-rule that any character that can take advanced piloting skills also have access to Piloting Robots so that my players can make Tony Stark-esque type characters if they so wish. I tend to be fairly flexible when letting my players create their characters.

[green.nova343]

Coming back around, I'm curious.

Say you're playing a PhD: you take the Robot program, and the Physical program, and so on; you have Robot Mechanics and Robot Electronics, and for power category -- Enchanted Object? Psionics?

Heck, no.

You're going with Bionics.

And so you've got a Reinforced Exoskeleton -- from your spine and shoulders to your hands and wrists, and your feet and ankles -- complete with a full suite of armored plates: chest, abdomen, arms, hips, legs, neck, head, all of it. Do you need a piloting skill to operate that exoskeleton, or can you simply run and gun like a pro in between wrestling and boxing with various opponents for the win?

I mean, yes, sure, if you're going to use a jetpack to fly around while blasting away with exterior forearm weapons while ironclad, I of course recommend taking the Pilot: Advanced program. But what, if anything, do you need to excel in your exoskeleton?

Well, since you determine your power category (Step 3) before you determine your Education Level (Step 4), that kind of situation really shouldn't arise. Although, as stankind pointed out, bionics <> robotics. In fact, AU: Galaxy Guide has a specific skill (Cybernetics M.D., pp. 201-2) which specifically states that it's the bionics equivalent of Robot Mechanics & Robot Electronics.

However, if you're going for the stereotypical Bionics character, then you're most likely going to go for a Military or Espionage background so that you can have the combat training that goes with the typical view of the bionic hero. That will provide you with a background more in line for the character you're looking for. On the other hand, if you're looking for a character more like DC's Cyborg -- not the Cartoon Network Teen Titans version, but more like the comic-book or even Super-Friends version (i.e. the one that was a mechanical expert & used super-gadgets & other equipment beyond your typical "energy blaster") -- then a Mechanical and/or Electrical skill program might be a good one to pick.

And let's not forget that oftentimes your bionics character may not be highly skilled. If you only rolled High School Education, or even 1-2 years of college, you're only getting 2 skill programs anyway, & certain skill programs will be locked out from your selection. You could even branch out a bit, & play a former medical student (Master's Degree lets you have the Medical Doctor program, you just can't be a practicing doctor) who suffered a horrible accident, but thanks to bionics (or even better, the more realistic-looking cybernetics from Ninjas & Super-Spies) has found a new career for himself.

[green.nova343]

In order to build/repair a robot vehicle or exoskeleton, you have some options available ... In order to pilot them, however, you only have two options

I don't think that's quite right. Look at what you just wrote there: "a robot vehicle or exoskeleton".

So, okay, I'm on the Robot Construction page with Body Frames, Size, & Style. First off are the Humanoid Body Styles, which need no introduction. But then come the Vehicular Body Styles, with options for Sports Car and Mid-Sized Sedan and so on; install a fuel-injected engine and some automotive-size wheels, and throw in additional speed if you're so inclined.

I figure a guy could pilot that robot vehicle with, say, Pilot: Automobile and Pilot: Race Car; that's what it does, that's what it is. You could likewise go with a body style that "resembles a tank or an armored personnel carrier": put the treads here, mount a machinegun there, slap on some extra armor plating, and you're all set to use Pilot: Tanks and APCs along with Weapon Systems, right? You'd maybe spring for the Combat Computer and some Voice Actuated Controls, but it's still the same thing.

Same thing if you build a hover jet system into a vehicular style robot; you need a skill that lets you pilot a hover vehicle, but so what? It's as easy as throwing in underwater capabilities and a skill for piloting submersibles, no matter that it started off built like a compact car.

So what happens when -- as per the rules -- you mount a couple of arms and hands on the vehicle?

I would rule that, if there are no adjustments to the body style, then they can attempt to pilot it. However, just because someone designed their robot vehicle using an automobile chassis doesn't mean the control system is your standardized, automatic-transmission-with-steering-wheel control system. I would suggest, in these cases, at least a -20% penalty to their skill rolls since the control systems are different than the standardized controls they're used to.

Then, of course, you have the weapon systems. Those aren't standard issue on any Chevy, Audi, or Toyota on the market, so unless they maybe have the Weapon Systems skill they won't be able to use those either -- and even then, I think a penalty for using robotic control systems might also apply (again, not necessarily standard weapon control systems like military forces use).

As for controlling humanoid arms added to a vehicle body shape, that's definitely a call for the "Pilot Robot Vehicles" skill... which only Robotics characters have.

[green.nova343]

As an aside, I house-rule that any character that can take advanced piloting skills also have access to Piloting Robots so that my players can make Tony Stark-esque type characters if they so wish. I tend to be fairly flexible when letting my players create their characters.

Not sure I can really see that. It's the one thing that sets the Robot Pilot character apart. His skills & training are pretty much fixed at a "Trade School/On the Job Training", or possibly "Specialized Training", level, so they don't get access to a lot of skills that other categories can potentially take [Note that this is a change from HU Revised, where they used the standard education table]. They can't even take skills that will help them repair their own robot vehicles -- unless they take Basic Mechanics and/or Electronics & use the rules from AU: Galaxy Guide pp. 141-142. But they're the only characters that get to automatically pilot any robot vehicle...and, since in every other setting (Rifts, Chaos Earth, Robotech, etc.) you have to have actual combat training to get bonuses when piloting the robot, I would say that also means they're the only ones that get the extra bonuses for combat inside a robot.

Which, to me, is why the Tony Stark type of character -- that builds & pilots his own robots vehicles -- should be a Mega-Hero, not something available to all character types. However, Tony Stark-type heroes aren't robot vehicle pilots per se; they're exoskeleton pilots. And yes, there is a difference. Exoskeletons, and their heavier power armor suit cousins, don't use vehicle control systems, they just augment the pilot's physical actions, with built-in weapons & other systems using either pupil-tracking HUDs, physical triggers, voice-controlled activation, or some other externally-mounted control system. In fact, we already have a book example of "heroes" that aren't in the Robotics category but use combat exoskeletons: the SCRET agents from Villians Unlimited. SCRET agents are listed as being from the physical training, special training: secret operative, hardware, or bionic categories (very occasionally being super-powered or psychic), with N&S agents and martial artists being another option. They don't always use them, but they do have available the EX-7 and EX-9 exoskeletons. However, those are mass-produced exoskeletons that are disbursed as needed to the agents in the field, so a) they don't belong to the agent, b) SCRET would probably frown on a particular character "fiddling" with agency equipment, and c) SCRET agents seem to be geared more towards NPCs than actual player characters. However, nowhere in their descriptions does it talk about a "pilot exoskeletons" skill, let alone "pilot robot vehicles".

Which, to me, means that a) you don't "pilot" an exoskeleton or PA suit so much as wear it, so the separate skill is moot anyway, and therefore b) if you really need to worry about control rolls, then you turn it into a P.P. attribute check & convert any terrain/weather condition/combat situation penalties into penalties on the attribute roll (although the mechanics of that is probably a different discussion). Although I've yet to find the rules in either HU Revised or HU2 that even says robots have P.P., let alone that you can increase it (the EX-7 and -9 both say they boost the user's P.P. score, but there's nothing in the robot creation rules in either book that allows for that; bionics can boost P.P., but that's completely separate).

The main issue for non-robotics characters, however, is going to be the big thing: cost. Take the Analytical Genius, whose description says he can (if he has the cash) start with a "basic exoskeleton". The problem is affording the "basic" model. A basic humanoid, human-sized chassis with 2 legs (SPD 10), 2 arms (PS 10), base S.D.C. (225), base A.R. (6), no built-in weapons, no additional sensors/optics/audio systems (in effect being an open-faced exoskeleton like Ripley's cargo loader in Aliens) costs $1.3 million...without a power system. The average Analytical Genius starts with only $750,000 or less to use for all of his equipment (including the built-in armor for his costume, upgraded body armor suits, etc.). Even sticking with the lower-tech (& environmentally-friendly) Super-Solar power system adds $1 million to the cost, for a total of $2.3 million...beyond the reach for all but the richest of characters (D100 of 82+ gives you at least $3 million to play with). And while sticking with reasonable attributes (PS 20, SPD 22) to avoid the reinforced frame ($900,000, & necessary when PS hits 22+) doesn't add too much more ($44,000 total), you're still not talking about anything near even the SCRET exoskeletons, let alone a Beetle or Crimson Dynamo-level suit. Other characters will start with even less money, so they won't have the means to build a robot vehicle. That means they would need a "sugar daddy" to provide one for them (one who may start to get mad whenever he has to pay to repair it), the support of a government agency (which is going to require them to follow agency protocols, only use it on agency-sanctioned missions, & will heavily frown on "unauthorized" use of the suit)...or be a Mega-Hero that combines 2 power categories together.

[Regularguy]

Not sure I can really see that. It's the one thing that sets the Robot Pilot character apart. His skills & training are pretty much fixed at a "Trade School/On the Job Training", or possibly "Specialized Training", level, so they don't get access to a lot of skills that other categories can potentially take [Note that this is a change from HU Revised, where they used the standard education table]. They can't even take skills that will help them repair their own robot vehicles -- unless they take Basic Mechanics and/or Electronics

You do realize they can take Robot Mechanics or Robot Electronics, right? It's been mentioned repeatedly in this very thread.

[Nightmask]

Not everything is or should be considered a mega hero Green Nova. Tony Stark wouldn't qualify as one because he's got both engineering genius skills and pilots power armor if he were considered one (and this probably can't help but skirt the conversion issues, hard to say given the context) it would be because he's got a mega-hero grade power armor.

Having a few extra skills that are seen as part of another category isn't what makes a character a mega-hero, being a massive step up from what's perceived as the 'normal' version is. A power armor pilot that also had the Robot Skill Program isn't suddenly a mega-hero because of that, he's still just a power armor pilot who just happens to be able to build and repair the stuff he pilots. You would have to provide him a power armor that's significantly more powerful than normally available to rate mega-hero status.

Locking the character into a tight range of Skill Programs does somewhat take away from the Power Armor Pilot though, many in fiction aren't trained as their focus in life on piloting power armor and robots, many just stumble upon a suit of power armor (like Defensor from Marvel Comics) or built it themselves (Tony Stark, Steel). The character's primary focus as a power armor pilot generally doesn't change if you give them that kind of secondary package although it does improve their versatility and they can contribute more as a result.

[Regularguy]

Locking the character into a tight range of Skill Programs does somewhat take away from the Power Armor Pilot though

While it's true that the guy can only start play with Robot Electronics or Robot Mechanics, a few semesters at college can set him up with the other half of that equation.

[Nightmask]

Locking the character into a tight range of Skill Programs does somewhat take away from the Power Armor Pilot though

While it's true that the guy can only start play with Robot Electronics or Robot Mechanics, a few semesters at college can set him up with the other half of that equation.

True, provided the GM doesn't make it difficult or impossible to actually learn the remaining skills (like insisting a suitable college isn't within the game's boundaries to be able to attend). Learning any skills after you start is totally at the GM's mercy if any.

[Regularguy]

True, provided the GM doesn't make it difficult or impossible to actually learn the remaining skills (like insisting a suitable college isn't within the game's boundaries to be able to attend). Learning any skills after you start is totally at the GM's mercy if any.

True, but it's still a far cry from needing a different class. I mean, if I ask you what character you're playing these days, and you say "a Robot Pilot who went back to school to learn a couple of new skills," I'm going to simply remember that bit on page 48: "Can a character go back to school to learn or improve his skills? Yes. However, this is very difficult ... To learn a new scholastic skill (one) or a skill program (several) the character must attend college or a special trade school."

If, by contrast, I ask what character you're playing, and you say "a Super Sleuth with Immortality and Hydrokinesis," I'll give you a very strange look while slowly backing away.

[Nightmask]

True, provided the GM doesn't make it difficult or impossible to actually learn the remaining skills (like insisting a suitable college isn't within the game's boundaries to be able to attend). Learning any skills after you start is totally at the GM's mercy if any.

True, but it's still a far cry from needing a different class. I mean, if I ask you what character you're playing these days, and you say "a Robot Pilot who went back to school to learn a couple of new skills," I'm going to simply remember that bit on page 48: "Can a character go back to school to learn or improve his skills? Yes. However, this is very difficult ... To learn a new scholastic skill (one) or a skill program (several) the character must attend college or a special trade school."

If, by contrast, I ask what character you're playing, and you say "a Super Sleuth with Immortality and Hydrokinesis," I'll give you a very strange look while slowly backing away.

Hopefully not after hearing it was either A) a member of an alien race the GM had available and those are racial powers they all have or B) it's one of those 'everyone has super-powers' settings suggested as an alternative so even the beggar on the street could be Immortal.

[Regularguy]

If, by contrast, I ask what character you're playing, and you say "a Super Sleuth with Immortality and Hydrokinesis," I'll give you a very strange look while slowly backing away.

Hopefully not after hearing it was either A) a member of an alien race the GM had available and those are racial powers they all have

You can do that with a Super Sleuth?

B) it's one of those 'everyone has super-powers' settings suggested as an alternative so even the beggar on the street could be Immortal.

Same question.

[Nightmask]

If, by contrast, I ask what character you're playing, and you say "a Super Sleuth with Immortality and Hydrokinesis," I'll give you a very strange look while slowly backing away.

Hopefully not after hearing it was either A) a member of an alien race the GM had available and those are racial powers they all have

You can do that with a Super Sleuth?

B) it's one of those 'everyone has super-powers' settings suggested as an alternative so even the beggar on the street could be Immortal.

Same question.

What made you think they couldn't? Particularly in a setting where everyone's got super-powers. Did you think it said 'everyone has super-powers EXCEPT Super-Sleuths'? It's kind of the point that everyone's got super-powers right down to the janitors, not that somehow everyone's got powers except power categories like Super-Sleuths or Power Armor Pilots. It just means that they took one of those categories because for example it was the only way to have a chance to stand out or be special by being more than just another person with Sonic Flight and Supernatural Physical Strength.

[Regularguy]

What made you think they couldn't?

Well, for the first, I didn't see where Aliens can select the Super Sleuth category; I see how they can go the Hardware route, I see how they can go the Mystic route, and (of particular relevance to this thread) I even see how they can go the Robot route. But I don't see where they can go the Super Sleuth route.

As for the second,

Particularly in a setting where everyone's got super-powers. Did you think it said 'everyone has super-powers EXCEPT Super-Sleuths'? It's kind of the point that everyone's got super-powers right down to the janitors, not that somehow everyone's got powers except power categories like Super-Sleuths or Power Armor Pilots. It just means that they took one of those categories because for example it was the only way to have a chance to stand out or be special by being more than just another person with Sonic Flight and Supernatural Physical Strength.

I'm of course perfectly comfortable with a setting where everyone has super-powers; so long as I'm on the page where it spells out that an Alien can be any number of things in general, but not a Super Sleuth in particular, I of course see the bit where various super abilities can be "common to all members of that alien race," at which point you don't get to select the Hardware route or the Mystic route or the Robot route -- and of course still don't get to select the Super Sleuth route -- but can pair Sonic Flight and Supernatural Strength with an education in General Studies, or as a Military Specialist, or whatever.

I can likewise picture a world where every man and woman happens to be a Mutant; it's not that I think everyone has super-powers except for the Super Sleuth; I thought that, if everyone has super-powers, then there would be no Super Sleuths. (Why, is there an option for granting everyone super-powers and still having Super Sleuths? I may have missed it.)

[Nightmask]

What made you think they couldn't?

Well, for the first, I didn't see where Aliens can select the Super Sleuth category; I see how they can go the Hardware route, I see how they can go the Mystic route, and (of particular relevance to this thread) I even see how they can go the Robot route. But I don't see where they can go the Super Sleuth route.

Not every alien race is restricted to where they couldn't be Super-Sleuths, some are but not all. They just suffer some skill loss penalties as aliens tend to.

Particularly in a setting where everyone's got super-powers. Did you think it said 'everyone has super-powers EXCEPT Super-Sleuths'? It's kind of the point that everyone's got super-powers right down to the janitors, not that somehow everyone's got powers except power categories like Super-Sleuths or Power Armor Pilots. It just means that they took one of those categories because for example it was the only way to have a chance to stand out or be special by being more than just another person with Sonic Flight and Supernatural Physical Strength.

I'm of course perfectly comfortable with a setting where everyone has super-powers; so long as I'm on the page where it spells out that an Alien can be any number of things in general, but not a Super Sleuth in particular, I of course see the bit where various super abilities can be "common to all members of that alien race," at which point you don't get to select the Hardware route or the Mystic route or the Robot route -- and of course still don't get to select the Super Sleuth route -- but can pair Sonic Flight and Supernatural Strength with an education in General Studies, or as a Military Specialist, or whatever.

I can likewise picture a world where every man and woman happens to be a Mutant; it's not that I think everyone has super-powers except for the Super Sleuth; I thought that, if everyone has super-powers, then there would be no Super Sleuths. (Why, is there an option for granting everyone super-powers and still having Super Sleuths? I may have missed it.)

Haven't got all the books handy to find the one that mentions it but one of the books talks about alternate settings and one is 'everyone has super-powers' and makes no exclusions from people being Super-Sleuths, Ancient Masters, Stage Magicians, etc. Just because powers are everywhere doesn't make everyone a mutant or experiment category (in fact it mentions characters with those specifications would basically have extra powers beyond those normal to the average) nor does everyone having super-powers mean no one would have an intense desire to become something like a Super-Sleuth, indeed certain powers (like Criminal Intuition) could drive someone into becoming a Super-Sleuth because of what those powers provide and leaving the person wanting to be able to most exploit the powers they have.

[Regularguy]

Not every alien race is restricted to where they couldn't be Super-Sleuths, some are but not all.

The HU book I'm looking at says nothing of the kind. I'd disagree with, but could understand, a claim that all of 'em could be Super Sleuths; you'd simply be disregarding the Determining Super Abilities table in the section on Aliens. But where in the HU book does it restrict some alien races but not others? I don't see where any of 'em -- not aquatic aliens from a low-gravity world, not artificial life forms from a high-radiation world, not vegetation aliens from a vegetation world, not even human-like aliens from a normal earth environment -- can opt to be Super Sleuths.

Haven't got all the books handy to find the one that mentions it but one of the books talks about alternate settings and one is 'everyone has super-powers'

Well, when you find it, feel free to let me know.

[green.nova343]

Not sure I can really see that. It's the one thing that sets the Robot Pilot character apart. His skills & training are pretty much fixed at a "Trade School/On the Job Training", or possibly "Specialized Training", level, so they don't get access to a lot of skills that other categories can potentially take [Note that this is a change from HU Revised, where they used the standard education table]. They can't even take skills that will help them repair their own robot vehicles -- unless they take Basic Mechanics and/or Electronics

You do realize they can take Robot Mechanics or Robot Electronics, right? It's been mentioned repeatedly in this very thread.

While their description says "one skill program of choice", the description for the Robot program states only Hardware characters, or characters with a Master's or Ph.D level of education, can take that program. Robot pilot <> Master's/Ph.D program, and certainly <> Hardware character.

Note that, otherwise, you could let the Stage Magician (Education equivalent to "one year of college") or Super Sleauth (Education equivalent to "three years of college") pick the Robot or Medical Doctor programs because their description says "pick one Scholastic Skill program". The restrictions in the Education section of the book trump a "pick any skill program" description, because they already outline who can take what programs.

Otherwise, I'm going to start letting players with only a High School Education result take the Military and Espionage programs, because they can "select 2 skill programs"...

As for "Special Training" Aliens, I see no problem with allowing them, although the hero category tables for aliens (both in HU2 & in AU) don't specifically allow for it. I would just add them on as the "Hardware or Physical Training" option to be "Hardware, Physical Training, or Special Training". As far as having super-powers, though, a randomly created alien with super-powers on those tables is assumed to simply have super-powers common to his entire race (i.e. all Kryptonians are super-strong, can fly, are hard to hurt, have X-ray vision, etc.). Now, there may be some specific aliens described in AU that say they are allowed to have special training, but I would imagine those races also don't have super-powers on top of that (physiological modifications due to gravitic, atmospheric, or other homeworld conditions not being the same as true superpowers). So those would be situations where an alien with psychic/super abilities and Special Training on top of that is definitely drifting into Mega-Hero territory.

[green.nova343]

Not everything is or should be considered a mega hero Green Nova. Tony Stark wouldn't qualify as one because he's got both engineering genius skills and pilots power armor if he were considered one (and this probably can't help but skirt the conversion issues, hard to say given the context) it would be because he's got a mega-hero grade power armor.

Having a few extra skills that are seen as part of another category isn't what makes a character a mega-hero, being a massive step up from what's perceived as the 'normal' version is. A power armor pilot that also had the Robot Skill Program isn't suddenly a mega-hero because of that, he's still just a power armor pilot who just happens to be able to build and repair the stuff he pilots. You would have to provide him a power armor that's significantly more powerful than normally available to rate mega-hero status.

Locking the character into a tight range of Skill Programs does somewhat take away from the Power Armor Pilot though, many in fiction aren't trained as their focus in life on piloting power armor and robots, many just stumble upon a suit of power armor (like Defensor from Marvel Comics) or built it themselves (Tony Stark, Steel). The character's primary focus as a power armor pilot generally doesn't change if you give them that kind of secondary package although it does improve their versatility and they can contribute more as a result.

Not saying that everyone should be, either. The Crimson Dynamos, for example, had very powerful suits, but I wouldn't call them Mega-Heroes because they didn't design the suits, they just piloted them.

But it's not just that Tony Stark designs power armor suits. The Iron Man suits are top-of-the-line, state-of-the-art systems that can go toe-to-toe with the most advanced alien technologies in the Marvel Universe -- and in some cases, even tech from alternate futures. But beyond that, Tony Stark isn't just a smart engineer, he's considered super-brilliant -- possibly on par with Reed Richards & some of the other super-smart mutants & mutated heroes. He can easily figure out technology, Terran or even most alien systems, and has designed multiple improved versions of an advanced battle suit that turns an otherwise unimpressive combatant (not having even basic military combat training, let alone advanced martial arts skills & training) into a highly agile & powerful melee & ranged combatant. His analytical skills are the epitome of the Hardware: Analytical Genius class (if not even more advanced), and his available robotics tech is on par with or surpasses that available even in Rifts Earth, let alone the HU2 setting. It's not the one or the other that makes him a Mega-Hero, it's the combination of the two... and the fact that you can't even do a poor man's approximation of his talents without going beyond either of the HU2 categories as written in the book. Again, if combining attributes of 2 power categories (i.e. an alien Physical Training character that also has super-powers) isn't considered the equivalent of a Mega-Hero, then I'm not sure what is.

[Nightmask]

Not sure I can really see that. It's the one thing that sets the Robot Pilot character apart. His skills & training are pretty much fixed at a "Trade School/On the Job Training", or possibly "Specialized Training", level, so they don't get access to a lot of skills that other categories can potentially take [Note that this is a change from HU Revised, where they used the standard education table]. They can't even take skills that will help them repair their own robot vehicles -- unless they take Basic Mechanics and/or Electronics

You do realize they can take Robot Mechanics or Robot Electronics, right? It's been mentioned repeatedly in this very thread.

While their description says "one skill program of choice", the description for the Robot program states only Hardware characters, or characters with a Master's or Ph.D level of education, can take that program. Robot pilot <> Master's/Ph.D program, and certainly <> Hardware character.

Note that, otherwise, you could let the Stage Magician (Education equivalent to "one year of college") or Super Sleauth (Education equivalent to "three years of college") pick the Robot or Medical Doctor programs because their description says "pick one Scholastic Skill program". The restrictions in the Education section of the book trump a "pick any skill program" description, because they already outline who can take what programs.

Otherwise, I'm going to start letting players with only a High School Education result take the Military and Espionage programs, because they can "select 2 skill programs"...

You need to recheck the two programs he pointed out, the Electrical Program and Mechanical, Vehicles. Each gives you a choice of one other skill on top of those that come required with the programs. So if you chose as a Robot Pilot to have the Electrical Program you could also select Robot Electronics as your free choice and likewise for Mechanical, Vehicles you could pick Robot Mechanics as your free choice so it's technically possible for a Robot Pilot to begin play with one of the Robot repair/design skills even though he does not have a Masters or Doctorate to have the full Robotics Skill Program.

As for "Special Training" Aliens, I see no problem with allowing them, although the hero category tables for aliens (both in HU2 & in AU) don't specifically allow for it. I would just add them on as the "Hardware or Physical Training" option to be "Hardware, Physical Training, or Special Training". As far as having super-powers, though, a randomly created alien with super-powers on those tables is assumed to simply have super-powers common to his entire race (i.e. all Kryptonians are super-strong, can fly, are hard to hurt, have X-ray vision, etc.). Now, there may be some specific aliens described in AU that say they are allowed to have special training, but I would imagine those races also don't have super-powers on top of that (physiological modifications due to gravitic, atmospheric, or other homeworld conditions not being the same as true superpowers). So those would be situations where an alien with psychic/super abilities and Special Training on top of that is definitely drifting into Mega-Hero territory.

Except that's not what the game says or suggests, super-powered aliens aren't considered mega-heroes because they've got both super-powers and a power category like the Hardware category. You're being overly broad in your labeling to consider those things mega-heroes 'just because'. Mega-heroes are a cut above what the 'normal' heroes can achieve, the mega-hero Robot Pilot has a budget the regular one can only dream of, and a suit that starting out has more going for it than the other can afford even with years of earnings plowed back into upgrades.

[Regularguy]

His analytical skills are the epitome of the Hardware: Analytical Genius class (if not even more advanced), and his available robotics tech is on par with or surpasses that available even in Rifts Earth, let alone the HU2 setting. It's not the one or the other that makes him a Mega-Hero, it's the combination of the two... and the fact that you can't even do a poor man's approximation of his talents without going beyond either of the HU2 categories as written in the book.

Wow, it's like you're describing a -- guy with Mechano-Link and Extraordinary IQ, or something.

[Nightmask]

His analytical skills are the epitome of the Hardware: Analytical Genius class (if not even more advanced), and his available robotics tech is on par with or surpasses that available even in Rifts Earth, let alone the HU2 setting. It's not the one or the other that makes him a Mega-Hero, it's the combination of the two... and the fact that you can't even do a poor man's approximation of his talents without going beyond either of the HU2 categories as written in the book.

Wow, it's like you're describing a -- guy with Mechano-Link and Extraordinary IQ, or something.

Either way too much specific use of Stark as from what I've seen in the past the mods will definitely put up a warning or just lock the thread if more discussion about what he looks like in the context of Heroes Unlimited. Need to get more generic or use examples open domain where no one can complain.

Some categories can't help but have some overlap, while they may be a specialist in X they can have back-up feature in Y. That doesn't mean that they're a Dual Class or that they're mega-heroes just that they aren't 2-dimensional but instead have more going for them than just being X. A Power Armor Pilot who can also build power armors and robots isn't suddenly now a mega-hero because he can do both, it takes a LOT to rise to the level of mega-hero. Even if you had the Power Armor Pilot also be a Doctorate level Robotics Engineer he's still not as good as a Hardware expert when it comes to these things. His Robotics skills cap out after all and if you enforce it they have an automatic penalty to success as a result of that 'well humans are stupid and so aren't as good at robotics as aliens' penalty tacked onto the skills. A VERY hefty penalty that almost ensures failure even for the Doctorate level character (max skill percentage 98% docked 40% 'just because' means the best non-Hardware sort can only succeed on their feat rolls 58% of the time, so fail nearly half the time). It's REALLY not making the power armor pilot a 'game-breaker' or a mega-hero or over-powered.