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First and foremost, I apologize in advance if this post is long, drawn-out, convoluted, and misconstrued.

Secondly, most importantly, thank you in advance to the people who chime in, weigh in, inform, hypothesize, and otherwise proselytize.

Currently, I'm GMing the Ladies in Hades and the Dyval Wears Prada MEGAVERSE IN FLAMES MINION WAR CAMPAIGN (on Obsidian Portal) and I've basically opened myself to a whole slew of rules interpretations by allowing material from Rifters and cross-genre games (N&SS, Splicers, etc. -- hey, it's the MEGAVERSE folks! Anything goes!). So, strictly canonically speaking, most of these questions and my audacity to ask them...are DEPLORABLE! How dare I? However, I'm trying to maintain a semblance of the rules that, as Kevin told me at the last Open House "works for me." I wanted to open up these combat questions to the forum and, especially to the Goddess of Post-Fu, for some interpretations, feedback, and constructive criticism. Your input is appreciated.

Here goes:

Combat Rules:

On Saturday it came up rather quickly and no one really said anything regarding their opinions but I want you guys to know that this is a DEMOCRACY. It was brought to my attention that we only play with one simultaneous attack per character per melee round. Um, when did that happen? I don't remember that being a "house rule" and I don't even remember the discussion. Now, I've done more drugs than a team of Tour de France cyclists but, for Lance Armstrong's edification, I'm willing to admit that I might have forgotten. I believe Dan brought this to my attention and Ryan affirmed the ruling so I didn't question it on the spot and I just kinda rolled with the punches for the sake of the game and the story.

To my knowledge: There is no rule limiting your combat actions with regard to attack and defense. Attacker declares attack and rolls strike. Defender declares defense (parry, dodge, entangle, simultaneous) then rolls defense. Outcome. Rinse, repeat. Parry (read: automatic parry) is the only action that does NOT forfeit your next ATTACK attempt. Dodge, Simultaneous Attack, and Entangle all take the place of the DEFENDER'S next action. If they are AUTOMATIC (auto-dodge, auto-parry, auto-roll, etc.) it does NOT cost you an action to do so NOR does it take the place of your next action. AFTER DEFENSE, defender may ROLL to take half damage (14 or better I think? 16?) and that DOES take a melee action (unless it is AUTOMATIC -- Dog Boxing for Isaac, for example.)

You can normally parry THREE different attackers / attacks for free due to space / size restrictions. Circular Parry, Multiple Parry, and MARTIAL ARTS PARRIES are free from this restriction. YOU CANNOT PARRY OR DODGE ATTACKS FROM BEHIND UNLESS YOU HAVE ADVANCED COMBAT TRAINING (it usually says, like in the case of the Juicer, may dodge ALL attacks including those from behind).

Hand to Hand Magic / Arcomi (Jescha, Pall Mall) is subject to the exact same restrictions as Hand to Hand Martial Arts. Parry may be used in conjunction with a Fireball, a Call Lightning, Fire Bolt, etc. The parry successfully DEFLECTS the intended blow -- it does NOT DAMAGE THE PERSON BEING PARRIED. Dodge may be used in conjunction with Armor of Ithan, Armor Bizarre, and ONE-CASTING COST defensive spells. With a successful principles of magic roll for SPEED CASTING, +50% PPE, and the typical rules for Spell Specializations and FOCI you may include higher level spells in the "one-casting cost" repertoire. A simultaneous attack with Hand to Hand Magic is subject to the EXACT SAME LIMITATIONS AS A PARRY (ie. one-casting cost, aggressive action, etc.) except it costs an attack / action AND focus of the spell is the ATTACKER -- NOT THE ACTUAL ATTACK ITSELF -- so damage would be done to the attacker, unlike the parry where the spell just blocks the blow.

Paired Weapons: Strike with one weapon and parry with the off-hand weapon without using an action. Four-arms, double-pairs of weapons, I think the rules are lacking here. I kinda made a quick call just to move the game forward on the spot when I said that you would need a second weapon in the second set of arms for that to count as "paired" for a total of FOUR weapons instead of THREE and one hand free. My call was that with FOUR weapons (TWO PAIRS) you can strike and parry without losing the benefit of your "paired weapon."

Okay, so please don't read too much into this. I want to get feedback on this stuff before it is written into the Obsidian Portal RULINGS page. We have the page so that we can refer to our past rulings and ensure that we stay CONSISTENT. I'm not making any snap judgements or game-calls. I'm just opening up the floor to discussion. This affects only certain CURRENT characters in the game more than others (Steve, Sonja, Jescha, Isaac, James) but it will potentially affect ALL FUTURE CHARACTERS and the NPCs at my disposal. What I would do is open it up to discussion on the Palladium Forums and then speak to you individually. When I have enough information we will vote and make a decision.

Recap:

1) One simultaneous attack per person per melee round.
2) Parry 3 separate attackers before costing actions for those untrained in multiple parry or circular parry.
3) Auto-dodge, auto-roll, auto-etc. doesn't cost an action (next or otherwise). Period.
4) No defense for attacks from behind UNLESS TRAINED.
5) Hand to Hand Magic / Arcomi follows same rules as previously outlined.
6) Paired Weapons in a four-armed creature allows you to strike and parry normally provided each set of arms is dual-wielding (four weapons instead of 3).

If there are other issues please feel free to bring them to my attention. Also, feel free to partake in the discussion on the palladium forums and to actively engage the responses.

Again, to reiterate, NOTHING is being done yet. I am merely collecting opinions and information. EVERYONE has a voice. THIS IS A DEMOCRACY.

Witchcraft wrote:On Saturday it came up rather quickly and no one really said anything regarding their opinions but I want you guys to know that this is a DEMOCRACY. It was brought to my attention that we only play with one simultaneous attack per character per melee round. Um, when did that happen? I don't remember that being a "house rule" and I don't even remember the discussion. Now, I've done more drugs than a team of Tour de France cyclists but, for Lance Armstrong's edification, I'm willing to admit that I might have forgotten. I believe Dan brought this to my attention and Ryan affirmed the ruling so I didn't question it on the spot and I just kinda rolled with the punches for the sake of the game and the story.

To my knowledge: There is no rule limiting your combat actions with regard to attack and defense. Attacker declares attack and rolls strike. Defender declares defense (parry, dodge, entangle, simultaneous) then rolls defense. Outcome. Rinse, repeat. Parry (read: automatic parry) is the only action that does NOT forfeit your next ATTACK attempt. Dodge, Simultaneous Attack, and Entangle all take the place of the DEFENDER'S next action. If they are AUTOMATIC (auto-dodge, auto-parry, auto-roll, etc.) it does NOT cost you an action to do so NOR does it take the place of your next action. AFTER DEFENSE, defender may ROLL to take half damage (14 or better I think? 16?) and that DOES take a melee action (unless it is AUTOMATIC -- Dog Boxing for Isaac, for example.)

This is correct. the only theoretical limit on the number of simultanious attacks you can make in a melee round is your attack per melee total.

As for weather or not you forgot your own houserule, I can't say either way. I have known GM's to forget old rulings, which was always a pain to me as a player when the rules of the road suddenly changed, so I can sympathise with your players if they are being serious.

You can normally parry THREE different attackers / attacks for free due to space / size restrictions.

If your incorporating N&SS melee combat rules, this is true

Circular Parry, Multiple Parry, and MARTIAL ARTS PARRIES are free from this restriction.

I'm not certain what you mean by MARTIAL ARTS PARRIES. Simply having Hand to Hand Martial Arts does not free you from this, only if you have a style that has circular parry or multiple parry (which is apparently just another name for circular parry, probablly a working name like Emporer Kromm being mentioned in old editions of Rifts). If you mean things like power block/parry, combination parry/attack, then no, these are NOT free of those restrictions.

YOU CANNOT PARRY OR DODGE ATTACKS FROM BEHIND UNLESS YOU HAVE ADVANCED COMBAT TRAINING (it usually says, like in the case of the Juicer, may dodge ALL attacks including those from behind).

This is correct. only using Circular Parry or Multiple Dodge can you dodge attacks from behind, unless it is an explicit class feature like the juicer. ALSO NOTE that for styles that have both automatic dodge and multiple dodge, you can NOT use them at once--you must declare one or the other. however it is possible to start using auto dodge-then if an attack comes from behind, you can instantly slip into automatic dodge BUT at the cost of the rest of the dodges that meleee taking attacks. The latter rule is explict on page 130 in Ninjas and Superspys.

You should also remember, the psionic power of intuitive combat gives anyone who has it the power to dodge attacks from all direction, including from behind and by surprise--granted this power comes at the cost of not being able to use ANY other psionic power for the duration.

Hand to Hand Magic / Arcomi (Jescha, Pall Mall) is subject to the exact same restrictions as Hand to Hand Martial Arts. Parry may be used in conjunction with a Fireball, a Call Lightning, Fire Bolt, etc. The parry successfully DEFLECTS the intended blow -- it does NOT DAMAGE THE PERSON BEING PARRIED. Dodge may be used in conjunction with Armor of Ithan, Armor Bizarre, and ONE-CASTING COST defensive spells. With a successful principles of magic roll for SPEED CASTING, +50% PPE, and the typical rules for Spell Specializations and FOCI you may include higher level spells in the "one-casting cost" repertoire. A simultaneous attack with Hand to Hand Magic is subject to the EXACT SAME LIMITATIONS AS A PARRY (ie. one-casting cost, aggressive action, etc.) except it costs an attack / action AND focus of the spell is the ATTACKER -- NOT THE ACTUAL ATTACK ITSELF -- so damage would be done to the attacker, unlike the parry where the spell just blocks the blow.

I cannot comment on this, as I have no idea where it's from. I would presume you are correct, but without knowing where it's from (Rifter?) I can't tell for certain.

Paired Weapons: Strike with one weapon and parry with the off-hand weapon without using an action. Four-arms, double-pairs of weapons, I think the rules are lacking here. I kinda made a quick call just to move the game forward on the spot when I said that you would need a second weapon in the second set of arms for that to count as "paired" for a total of FOUR weapons instead of THREE and one hand free. My call was that with FOUR weapons (TWO PAIRS) you can strike and parry without losing the benefit of your "paired weapon."

This is correct, you need two pairs of weapons and cannot have a free hand. The only exception to this I am aware of is Jeridu, who have six arms and a racial ability paried weapons for each, allowing them to attack 5 times per turn and sitll keep one to parry with--that is if they don't attack six times and use their natural autododge)

1) One simultaneous attack per person per melee round.
2) Parry 3 separate attackers before costing actions for those untrained in multiple parry or circular parry.
3) Auto-dodge, auto-roll, auto-etc. doesn't cost an action (next or otherwise). Period.
4) No defense for attacks from behind UNLESS TRAINED.
5) Hand to Hand Magic / Arcomi follows same rules as previously outlined.
6) Paired Weapons in a four-armed creature allows you to strike and parry normally provided each set of arms is dual-wielding (four weapons instead of 3).

1: This is not the offical rule, no, it may be a houserule you forgot you made
2. No, if your being attacked by 4 people at once, you cannot parry the fourth at all. you have to dodge or take the hit.
3. Correct.
4. Unless trained in the correct defence, OR have an OCC ability to (such as juicer), OR are using the psionic power of intuitive combat
5. No comment
6. yes.

You also may be forgetting that paired weapons does not only let one attack and parry at once, it lets them SIMULTANIOUSLY ATTACK and still parry THAT SAME ATTACK.

Guy A with 1 sword attacks guy B with 2 vibro-swords. Guy B can declare simultanious parry-attack, allowing him to roll to parry normally AND attack guy A normally. guy A, as usual, can do nothing to defend aginst the simultanious attack.

Post-Fu Fairy! Thank you kindly for your reply.

2) There is no limitation to the number of auto-dodges you can make like there is the limitation of 3 auto-parries? If you are surrounded by 6 cat-sized spitting spiders (ranged attack) you can auto-dodge all their poisonous saliva? Can you simultaneously attack on a ranged attack? The spiders are only 5ft away? Melee range right? You referenced P.130 of N&SS but what I'm trying to do is keep the combat as close to "RUE" as possible. Is there such a thing as multiple dodge for the Rifts setting?

6) In the case of simultaneous attack-parry it still costs the defender his next action to simultaneous attack-parry the incoming attack? A four-armed Rahu-man attacks with a pair of arms, dual-strike, and can keep the other two arms to simultaneous attack-parry the next 3 attackers that come at him in melee? Does he lose his next action? If so, does that action come right off the top of his total? How many people can he simultaneously attack-parry (is it subject to the regular 3-person parry rule?)?

Witchcraft wrote:Post-Fu Fairy! Thank you kindly for your reply.

2) There is no limitation to the number of auto-dodges you can make like there is the limitation of 3 auto-parries?

correct. a juicer can dodge 100 people shooting at him--in theory. statistically that many will land enough hits to off him anyway, through natural 20's alone.

If you are surrounded by 6 cat-sized spitting spiders (ranged attack) you can auto-dodge all their poisonous saliva?

only if they're all in front/to the sides of you. if your surrounded, then it's impossible to dodge the two that are behind you UNLESS you are a juicer or have intutitive combat. Autododge does NOT grant the ability to dodge attacks from behind if you are surrounded, that's a feature of the juicer OCC and simply having an autododge dosn't mean anyone can do it.

So if 6 spiders are side by side in front of you, you can auto dodge all six. if you have two in front, one on each side, and two behind, the two from behind can NOT be autododged. Remember, an auto-dodge is simply a dodge, that does not take up an attack. if an attack can not be dodged normally (say it's from behind), then it cannot be auto-dodged either.

Can you simultaneously attack on a ranged attack?

Yes, but only if you could normally attack. if you have a sword, and someone is shooting you from 1600 feet away with a laser rifle, you cannot simultanious-attack. if however if your in melee range you can.

The spiders are only 5ft away? Melee range right? You referenced P.130 of N&SS but what I'm trying to do is keep the combat as close to "RUE" as possible. Is there such a thing as multiple dodge for the Rifts setting?

No, multiple dodge ONLY exists in ninjas and superspys. there is no equivlent in any other megaversal game. in these cases dodging attacks from behind is simply impossible unless you have some power that grants an exception.

6) In the case of simultaneous attack-parry it still costs the defender his next action to simultaneous attack-parry the incoming attack? A four-armed Rahu-man attacks with a pair of arms, dual-strike, and can keep the other two arms to simultaneous attack-parry the next 3 attackers that come at him in melee? Does he lose his next action? If so, does that action come right off the top of his total? How many people can he simultaneously attack-parry (is it subject to the regular 3-person parry rule?)?

Yes, simultanious attack-parry with duel weapons still takes one attack per simultanious attack. it merely means you don't sacrafise your chance to parry to do so.

In your case, the rahu-man uses one pair of arms to dual-strike--he attacks twice on one turn, burning one attack per melee to do so. he then simultanious attack-parry's three people with his other pair of weapons. he burns 3 additional attacks per melee, one for each simultnaious attack-parry. by the end of the turn, he has used 4 attacks per melee out of his total, and stuck a total of 5 times.

Remember, once he's out of attacks per melee, he can no longer use simultanious attack of ANY kind, paired or otherwise. he can only continue to use automatic parries.

/worship

Thank you for your cogent, expedient replies.

Cheers!

One last comment on the auto-x manuvers. Automatic body flip/throw can only be used in defence, and not to initiate an attack. that is, when hand to hand commando gets automatic body flip/throw, whenever someone tries to swing their sword at them, instead of automatically parrying or simultanious attacking, they can roll automatic flip/throw. if it succeeds, the attack is foiled and they are thrown for damage + loss of intititve and one attack (on top of the attack they spent that was just foiled). this is NOT a simultanious attack, and does not cost any melee action to use, but is a special and very powerful manuver. however, if you wish to inititate a body flip/throw on someone who hasn't attacked you, you can't use automatic body flip/throw, but have to use normal body flip/throw for one attack.

Understood. The context for this is rather odd and I'm glad you brought up the HtH: Commando because our Splicer Dreadguard has it...along with four arms, paired weapons, weapon masteries, enhanced symbiotic metabolism, auto-body flip, and 13 legitimate attacks per melee in his bio-armor. It has really challenged me as a GM to run combat when there are so many "conditional" rule aspects that I either didn't remember or couldn't find the reference for or just weren't written as precisely as your replies in this thread...hehe.

Thank you

Witchcraft wrote:Understood. The context for this is rather odd and I'm glad you brought up the HtH: Commando because our Splicer Dreadguard has it...along with four arms, paired weapons, weapon masteries, enhanced symbiotic metabolism, auto-body flip, and 13 legitimate attacks per melee in his bio-armor. It has really challenged me as a GM to run combat when there are so many "conditional" rule aspects that I either didn't remember or couldn't find the reference for or just weren't written as precisely as your replies in this thread...hehe.

Thank you

I have a feeling this guy might be why you might have houseruled "one simultanious attack per melee round". at 13 APM + dreadguard bio-armor, not much is stopping him from simultaniously attacking all the other guys attacks and still trading tit-for-tat on his turn

Witchcraft wrote:First and foremost, I apologize in advance if this post is long, drawn-out, convoluted, and misconstrued.

Secondly, most importantly, thank you in advance to the people who chime in, weigh in, inform, hypothesize, and otherwise proselytize.

Currently, I'm GMing the Ladies in Hades and the Dyval Wears Prada MEGAVERSE IN FLAMES MINION WAR CAMPAIGN (on Obsidian Portal) and I've basically opened myself to a whole slew of rules interpretations by allowing material from Rifters and cross-genre games (N&SS, Splicers, etc. -- hey, it's the MEGAVERSE folks! Anything goes!). So, strictly canonically speaking, most of these questions and my audacity to ask them...are DEPLORABLE! How dare I? However, I'm trying to maintain a semblance of the rules that, as Kevin told me at the last Open House "works for me." I wanted to open up these combat questions to the forum and, especially to the Goddess of Post-Fu, for some interpretations, feedback, and constructive criticism. Your input is appreciated.

Here goes:

Combat Rules:

On Saturday it came up rather quickly and no one really said anything regarding their opinions but I want you guys to know that this is a DEMOCRACY. It was brought to my attention that we only play with one simultaneous attack per character per melee round. Um, when did that happen? I don't remember that being a "house rule" and I don't even remember the discussion. Now, I've done more drugs than a team of Tour de France cyclists but, for Lance Armstrong's edification, I'm willing to admit that I might have forgotten. I believe Dan brought this to my attention and Ryan affirmed the ruling so I didn't question it on the spot and I just kinda rolled with the punches for the sake of the game and the story.

The Rifts Game Master’s Guide has the same copy/paste description of Simultaneous Attack that every other book I've looked at does. But, the Q. & A. section has an answer to an unrelated question on page 32 which sheds some light (I bolded the passage of note):

Q. One of the players in my group & I were having a disagreement about Simultaneous Attacks. My friend thinks that if he is fighting something with more attacks per round than himself he can call Simultaneous and attack the same way he would be able to parry.

A. No. Doing a simultaneous attack still counts as one attack, and will use the character's attack up like normal. All he is doing is skipping any opportunity to parry his opponent's attack and to strike the same time his attack is. What this does is enable the character who would normally be the defender to be the aggressor at the same instant. The advantage is unless he rolls a 1-4 to strike, his attack will hit, because the attacker is busy attacking and can NOT dodge. But then, neither can he!

The combat continues as normal. The aggressive defender can continue to simultaneously attack, each combatant hammering at one another without parrying or dodging, or he can try to parry and counterstrike. However, this does NOT give the defender extra attacks. When all of his attacks are used up, and if his attacker still has a few attacks left, the attacker continues to strike and all the other character can do is parry or dodge. A parry does not use up an attack. A dodge will use up attacks the defender character would have the next melee round.

Witchcraft wrote:To my knowledge: There is no rule limiting your combat actions with regard to attack and defense. Attacker declares attack and rolls strike. Defender declares defense (parry, dodge, entangle, simultaneous) then rolls defense. Outcome. Rinse, repeat. Parry (read: automatic parry) is the only action that does NOT forfeit your next ATTACK attempt. Dodge, Simultaneous Attack, and Entangle all take the place of the DEFENDER'S next action. If they are AUTOMATIC (auto-dodge, auto-parry, auto-roll, etc.) it does NOT cost you an action to do so NOR does it take the place of your next action. AFTER DEFENSE, defender may ROLL to take half damage (14 or better I think? 16?) and that DOES take a melee action (unless it is AUTOMATIC -- Dog Boxing for Isaac, for example.)

Page 34 of the Rifts Game Master’s Guide does address Rolling with Punch as taking a melee attack/action, similar to a dodge. This is noted again on Page 341 of the Rifts Ultimate Edition, as a Note under the STEP 5 paragraph.

Witchcraft wrote:You can normally parry THREE different attackers / attacks for free due to space / size restrictions. Circular Parry, Multiple Parry, and MARTIAL ARTS PARRIES are free from this restriction. YOU CANNOT PARRY OR DODGE ATTACKS FROM BEHIND UNLESS YOU HAVE ADVANCED COMBAT TRAINING (it usually says, like in the case of the Juicer, may dodge ALL attacks including those from behind).

Page 30 of the Rifts GMG has an entry for “Multiple Attackers:”
Multiple Attackers: Takes place when an opponent is faced by more than one attacker. Characters with hand to hand combat skills can attempt to parry any attacks within their line of sight. The defender from multiple attackers can strike at only one target at a time (see leap attack for a rare exception).

Page 342 of the Rifts Ultimate Edition, in the paragraph labeled as “Two against one”
The “one” can try to parry incoming attacks from as many as three adversaries, but a fourth attacker gets a free shot (no parry for the “one” on that attack).

Page 346 of the Rifts Ultimate Edition, under the entry for “Multiple Attackers:”
Multiple Attackers: Takes place when an opponent is faces by more than one attacker. Characters with hand to hand combat skills can attempt to parry any attacks within their line of sight, from up to three attackers. The defender from multiple attackers can only strike at only one target at a time (see Paired Weapons for a rare exception).

Page 327 of the Rifts Ultimate Edition, under the skill description for “Paired Weapons,” makes things more confusing:
A character with W.P. Paired Weapons using both of his attacks simultaneously on someone is vulnerable to attack from a second opponent. When fighting three (or more) attackers, the character would be able to try to parry two of the attackers, but any other attacks would be unopposed.

So basically, it seems that, per the rules, you only get to parry 3 attackers unless you’re using paired weapons, in which case you can only parry up to 2. Anything beyond that cannot be parried. However, dodge or auto-dodge can be used instead.

Witchcraft wrote:Hand to Hand Magic / Arcomi (Jescha, Pall Mall) is subject to the exact same restrictions as Hand to Hand Martial Arts. Parry may be used in conjunction with a Fireball, a Call Lightning, Fire Bolt, etc. The parry successfully DEFLECTS the intended blow -- it does NOT DAMAGE THE PERSON BEING PARRIED. Dodge may be used in conjunction with Armor of Ithan, Armor Bizarre, and ONE-CASTING COST defensive spells. With a successful principles of magic roll for SPEED CASTING, +50% PPE, and the typical rules for Spell Specializations and FOCI you may include higher level spells in the "one-casting cost" repertoire. A simultaneous attack with Hand to Hand Magic is subject to the EXACT SAME LIMITATIONS AS A PARRY (ie. one-casting cost, aggressive action, etc.) except it costs an attack / action AND focus of the spell is the ATTACKER -- NOT THE ACTUAL ATTACK ITSELF -- so damage would be done to the attacker, unlike the parry where the spell just blocks the blow.

The Mystical Martial Art called “Arcomi” is listed on page 31 of Rifter #30. It is written up and seems designed to function similarly to the Ninjas and Superspies martial arts forms. The Hand to Hand: Magic style is copied and pasted below, from a “netbook” of skills someone put together back in 1999.



Since this is all in the realm of “house rules” and comes from optional material, it’s tough to comment definitively. Also, a lot of things have happened in this game so far, and a lot of precedents have already been set. Please keep those in mind as you read my comments to your statement/question regarding Arcomi and HTH: Magic.

HTH: Magic notes that only HTH: Magic allows a spell caster to parry by casting a spell. Nowhere in the description for Arcomi, the combat moves list for Arcomi, nor the level advancement bonuses for Arcomi does it note that someone with that martial art style can parry anything with the casting of a magic spell. So the first thing I note here is that the parrying you discuss only affects HTH: Magic. Arcomi users (or any HTH/martial art style users) are unable to engage in that action.

Second thing of note, in the list of level 1 abilities, HTH: Magic says: “parry energy/projectile weapons using magic spells such as ‘fireball’ or ‘call lightning’…” This seems to limit the ability to parry incoming attacks to only ranged attacks, not melee.

Next thing of note in that same sentence is this: “a parry in this fashion counts as one Hand to Hand attack, and spends P.P.E.” This is pretty clear that when a user of this HTH skill does a parry by casting magic, that uses up their next attack.

Final thing of note, again from the same sentence: “can also cast defensive spells, such as ‘Armor of Ithan’ as a parry but has no bonus to do so.” It’s nitpicky, but the HTH skill considers doing this a parry, not a dodge. Also there is the note of no bonuses being applicable.

Regarding the precedents which have been set in the game where parrying in this manner does NOT use up the next attack/action, and these parries CAN be used against melee attacks: It seems as if what you wrote makes sense. The method of attack itself is being parried/deflected by the spell used to parry, not the attacker himself, and the attacker does not take damage from the spell used to parry. Spells which take more than one action to cast can only be used to parry in this manner if the caster has the Focus: Burst Casting skill and makes a successful Principles of Magic roll as per the rules for the focus skills as listed in Rifter #30, page 31.

Based on the wording of Hand to Hand: Magic and its ability to parry attacks by casting magic spells, it would seem reasonable to allow a user of that Hand to Hand skill to use magic spells as simultaneous attacks as long as they could be cast in one action (using the Burst Casting Focus skill, if necessary, as discussed earlier). The effects of the spell in this instance (as a simultaneous attack) should NOT negate the attack, however. If an enemy attempted to swing a sword, and the spell caster with HTH: Magic responded by casting Charm, then the spell caster is hit (assuming the roll to hit was above a 4) by the enemy and takes damage, while the enemy has to save versus magic or be affected by the Charm.

Using the martial art form Arcomi, or any other Hand to Hand style/form to do simultaneous attacks with Magic, should be a separate consideration – based on the rules for spell interruption, I’m not sure if a spell caster should be able to cast a single-action spell as a simultaneous attack without being interrupted by the attack he’s letting himself get hit by. One could argue either way for that, and I’m not sure if there’s any rule precedent or note which addresses it.

A final point to consider here… Simultaneous attacks do not allow for a defense (except for when paired weapons are involved). Is it the intention here that simultaneous attacks with magic/psionics would NOT allow for the person they’re used on to make a saving throw? I feel like that may be worth clarifying if this is allowed.

Witchcraft wrote:Paired Weapons: Strike with one weapon and parry with the off-hand weapon without using an action. Four-arms, double-pairs of weapons, I think the rules are lacking here. I kinda made a quick call just to move the game forward on the spot when I said that you would need a second weapon in the second set of arms for that to count as "paired" for a total of FOUR weapons instead of THREE and one hand free. My call was that with FOUR weapons (TWO PAIRS) you can strike and parry without losing the benefit of your "paired weapon."

The only precedents I could find about Paired Weapons and beings with multiple arms were only notes about how they didn't need to select Paired Weapons additional times for each pair of arms. Based solely on that fact, it would seem like this is a reasonable way to interpret the paired weapon skill, by requiring "pairs" of weapons. I also think just two weapons would be no issue either - as I recall, it was having a third weapon in an arm that called this to question. Thinking about it, in regards to a being with 4 arms, I could see an argument being made for the following:

• With two weapons wielded in two hands, one can attack two times, OR parry two times, OR parry an attack and simultaneously attack with one weapon.
• With three weapons wielded in three hands, one can attack three times, OR parry three times, OR parry an attack and simultaneously attack with two weapons, OR attack with two weapons and reserve the third weapon for parries and/or simultaneous attacks.
• With four weapons wielded in four hands, one can attack four times, OR parry four times, OR parry an attack and simultaneously attack with three weapons, OR attack with three weapons and reserve the fourth weapon for parries, OR attack with two weapons and reserve the other two for parries and/or simultaneous strikes, OR other combinations that become too bothersome to list.

Witchcraft wrote:Okay, so please don't read too much into this. I want to get feedback on this stuff before it is written into the Obsidian Portal RULINGS page. We have the page so that we can refer to our past rulings and ensure that we stay CONSISTENT. I'm not making any snap judgements or game-calls. I'm just opening up the floor to discussion. This affects only certain CURRENT characters in the game more than others (Steve, Sonja, Jescha, Isaac, James) but it will potentially affect ALL FUTURE CHARACTERS and the NPCs at my disposal. What I would do is open it up to discussion on the Palladium Forums and then speak to you individually. When I have enough information we will vote and make a decision.

Recap:

1) One simultaneous attack per person per melee round.

Not by RUE rules.

Witchcraft wrote:2) Parry 3 separate attackers before costing actions for those untrained in multiple parry or circular parry.

Not by RUE rules.

Witchcraft wrote:3) Auto-dodge, auto-roll, auto-etc. doesn't cost an action (next or otherwise). Period.

Correct.

Witchcraft wrote:4) No defense for attacks from behind UNLESS TRAINED.

No defense for attacks from behind unless an ability is possessed which allows reaction to unknown attacks (such as Multiple Dodge, or the Juicer's autododge ability)

Witchcraft wrote:5) Hand to Hand Magic / Arcomi follows same rules as previously outlined.

Parrying with magic spells only applies to HTH: Magic; Simultaneous attacks with magic spells are a judgement call.

Witchcraft wrote:6) Paired Weapons in a four-armed creature allows you to strike and parry normally provided each set of arms is dual-wielding (four weapons instead of 3).

Sounds logical, though a case can be made against.

Witchcraft wrote:If there are other issues please feel free to bring them to my attention. Also, feel free to partake in the discussion on the palladium forums and to actively engage the responses.

Again, to reiterate, NOTHING is being done yet. I am merely collecting opinions and information. EVERYONE has a voice. THIS IS A DEMOCRACY.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Witchcraft wrote:YOU CANNOT PARRY OR DODGE ATTACKS FROM BEHIND UNLESS YOU HAVE ADVANCED COMBAT TRAINING (it usually says, like in the case of the Juicer, may dodge ALL attacks including those from behind).

This is correct. only using Circular Parry or Multiple Dodge can you dodge attacks from behind, unless it is an explicit class feature like the juicer. ALSO NOTE that for styles that have both automatic dodge and multiple dodge, you can NOT use them at once--you must declare one or the other. however it is possible to start using auto dodge-then if an attack comes from behind, you can instantly slip into automatic dodge BUT at the cost of the rest of the dodges that meleee taking attacks. The latter rule is explict on page 130 in Ninjas and Superspys.

You should also remember, the psionic power of intuitive combat gives anyone who has it the power to dodge attacks from all direction, including from behind and by surprise--granted this power comes at the cost of not being able to use ANY other psionic power for the duration.

I've been looking through the books and I see that this is true, but it now makes me wonder... what stops my opponent, on his attack/action, from just walking behind my character and getting a reaction-free attack? And then on my turn, I just go walk behind him and do the same? I feel like I'm missing something.

Glistam wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Witchcraft wrote:YOU CANNOT PARRY OR DODGE ATTACKS FROM BEHIND UNLESS YOU HAVE ADVANCED COMBAT TRAINING (it usually says, like in the case of the Juicer, may dodge ALL attacks including those from behind).

This is correct. only using Circular Parry or Multiple Dodge can you dodge attacks from behind, unless it is an explicit class feature like the juicer. ALSO NOTE that for styles that have both automatic dodge and multiple dodge, you can NOT use them at once--you must declare one or the other. however it is possible to start using auto dodge-then if an attack comes from behind, you can instantly slip into automatic dodge BUT at the cost of the rest of the dodges that meleee taking attacks. The latter rule is explict on page 130 in Ninjas and Superspys.

You should also remember, the psionic power of intuitive combat gives anyone who has it the power to dodge attacks from all direction, including from behind and by surprise--granted this power comes at the cost of not being able to use ANY other psionic power for the duration.

I've been looking through the books and I see that this is true, but it now makes me wonder... what stops my opponent, on his attack/action, from just walking behind my character and getting a reaction-free attack? And then on my turn, I just go walk behind him and do the same? I feel like I'm missing something.

Nothing's stoping them from walking behind you, but nothing stops you from turning to keep facing them as they are moving either. you do NOT have to wait your turn to move, only to take an action. in palladium, movement and actions are unrelated.

Oh gosh! Thanks for all the new input and feedback.

So the only real issue we have, besides the HtH Magic particulars, is the parry up to 3 separate attackers rule. Glistam you're saying that the fourth attacker (and more?) gets a free attack that cannot be parried even by the defender using actions to do so. And Nekira is saying that it cannot be parried but can still be dodged. On everything else we were in agreement.

I think dodging is still an option, which traditionally would use up the next attack. But when autododge is in play it won't make too much of a difference. The Rifts Ultimate Edition only addresses a limit on Parries, not dodging. So I think Nekira and I are on the same page there.