Chinese godlings and Demi-gods

[Nightmask]

So say you've got a Chinese Godling or Demi-god and in keeping with the mythology and setting the character has Wu Shih rather than Ley Line Walker as their magical class, just what spells do they get? Obviously all chi magic spells equal to or lower than their current level but what about Western spells? Wu Shih can learn Western spells without penalty (unlike Western mages learning Chinese magic) so would they gain those automatically as well from the LLW list or are they something the character would have to learn like any other character or require the LLW mage selection for their other magical power if they want both sets of spells automatically?

[Nekira Sudacne]

I would have to say they would have to take LLW or something equivlent seperately. Lets put it this way: Shifters gain the ability to learn temporal magic at level 10. that dosn't mean that 10th level demigods with shifter powers start learning all temporal spells of equal or lesser level. they can but it's not the focus.

I think the real issue is weather or not they can learn spells of two schools naturally through level progression or if they can just study as they level. Temporal wizards can naturally learn invocational and temporal magic naturally as they level, so godlings get both as they level. Ley Line Walkers can learn necromancy spells through study, but they can't select them naturally, and thus godling ley line walkers can't learn all necromancy spells naturally. Meanwhile Necromancer godlings learn only those invocational spells per level that is on the necromancer approved list.

[drewkitty ~..~]

So say you've got a Chinese Godling or Demi-god and in keeping with the mythology and setting the character has Wu Shih rather than Ley Line Walker as their magical class, just what spells do they get?

Obviously all chi magic spells equal to or lower than their current level but what about Western spells?

Which is not many. But then again Wu Shih do not automaticly get new spells at a "Level Up". As to western spell: None. The "magic power" is limited to the type of mage selected. So if a specilty magic mage type is selected they will only get that type of specilty magic as a aprt of the power & only those common magic spells that have representation with in the specilty magic.
So where a Mirror Mage would get a few spells that have the same effects as some common magic spells, a chi mage has No Common magic equivlents so they would get No spells from the common magic lists.

Wu Shih can learn Western spells without penalty (unlike Western mages learning Chinese magic)

Wu shih have to ether convert western magic into chi magic or have to learn how to cast cast in the western magic style. I don't know where you got this "Wu Shih can learn Western spells without penalty" from, but the idea is incorrect.

so would they gain those automatically as well from the LLW list or are they something the character would have to learn like any other character or require the LLW mage selection for their other magical power if they want both sets of spells automatically?

Only if the Godling has the "magic power" twice with one getting the wu shih and the other taking a common magic mage type.

Mr. M please try to stop 'trying to read' more into the text more then their is.

[Nightmask]

Wu Shih can learn Western spells without penalty (unlike Western mages learning Chinese magic)

Wu shih have to ether convert western magic into chi magic or have to learn how to cast cast in the western magic style. I don't know where you got this "Wu Shih can learn Western spells without penalty" from, but the idea is incorrect.

You are in error, Western Mages have to convert Chi Magic into Western Style or learn how to cast in the Eastern Style, Wu Shih have no such requirements for learning Western Magic and may learn a Western spell just as easily and without restriction as a Western mage can.

so would they gain those automatically as well from the LLW list or are they something the character would have to learn like any other character or require the LLW mage selection for their other magical power if they want both sets of spells automatically?

Only if the Godling has the "magic power" twice with one getting the wu shih and the other taking a common magic mage type.

Mr. M please try to stop 'trying to read' more into the text more then their is.

Do stop being insulting and trying to make a question out to be more than it is.

[Nightmask]

I would have to say they would have to take LLW or something equivlent seperately. Lets put it this way: Shifters gain the ability to learn temporal magic at level 10. that dosn't mean that 10th level demigods with shifter powers start learning all temporal spells of equal or lesser level. they can but it's not the focus.

I think the real issue is weather or not they can learn spells of two schools naturally through level progression or if they can just study as they level. Temporal wizards can naturally learn invocational and temporal magic naturally as they level, so godlings get both as they level. Ley Line Walkers can learn necromancy spells through study, but they can't select them naturally, and thus godling ley line walkers can't learn all necromancy spells naturally. Meanwhile Necromancer godlings learn only those invocational spells per level that is on the necromancer approved list.

A well-reasoned look at things as always. I can accept the reasoning that while the Wu Shih can learn the Western Spells they aren't seen as inherent to qualify for the 'all spells up to the current character level' aspect that having the class as one of their Godling power selections states.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Wu Shih can learn Western spells without penalty (unlike Western mages learning Chinese magic)

Wu shih have to ether convert western magic into chi magic or have to learn how to cast cast in the western magic style. I don't know where you got this "Wu Shih can learn Western spells without penalty" from, but the idea is incorrect.

You are in error, Western Mages have to convert Chi Magic into Western Style or learn how to cast in the Eastern Style, Wu Shih have no such requirements for learning Western Magic and may learn a Western spell just as easily and without restriction as a Western mage can.

The "restriction" is "common" to all mages who want to cast magic forien to their own ways of casting magic. The reason that the "How can a western mage cast chi magic" is covered is that there are more western mage chars in the PB megaverce and they know that some Rifter will be looking for ways to "Just add on more power" to their current "western" common magic mage char. This does not negate the need for a specilty mage from needing to learn "convert the spell" or "learn the magic" that the western mage has to do. This is also supported by the text talking about how LLW has to "Learn the Magic" to be able to gain Nazca Line Magic spells.

I did answer the questions asked, fully.

[Nightmask]

Wu Shih can learn Western spells without penalty (unlike Western mages learning Chinese magic)

Wu shih have to ether convert western magic into chi magic or have to learn how to cast cast in the western magic style. I don't know where you got this "Wu Shih can learn Western spells without penalty" from, but the idea is incorrect.

You are in error, Western Mages have to convert Chi Magic into Western Style or learn how to cast in the Eastern Style, Wu Shih have no such requirements for learning Western Magic and may learn a Western spell just as easily and without restriction as a Western mage can.

The restriction is "common" to all mages who want to cast magic forien to their own. The reason that the "How can a western mage cast chi" magic is covered is that there are more western mage chars in the PB megaverce and they know that some Rifter will be looking for ways to "Just add on more power" to their current "western" common magic mage char. This does not negate the need for a specilty mage from needing to learn "convert the spell" or "learn the magic" that the western mage has to do. This is also supported by the text talking about how LLW has to "Learn the Magic" to be able to gain Nazca Line Magic spells.

I did answer the questions asked, fully.

You need to read Mystic China again, one does not need to convert Western magic to Chi magic it is stated that Wu Shih can learn Western magic without any mention at all that they have to 'learn how Western Mages do it' or 'convert it to Chi Magic' unlike all the effort to state how difficult it is for Western mages learning chi spells. That is the advantage Wu Shih have over their poor spell list and so many other restrictions, they can learn Western spells just as easily as they do Eastern, it's Western mages that have the trouble wrapping their minds around Eastern Magic, it doesn't go both ways. Eastern mages have no problems learning Western spells such as an Arcanist, Wizard, or Ley Line Walker know.

So your 'common restriction' isn't, and it has nothing to do with people 'just wanting to add more power'.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I give up trying to give you the instruction you ask for.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I dunno Drewkitty, I checked mystic china myself and it looks like Nightmask has the right of it. The Wu Shih specifically can learn western magic without conversion, though they seem rather disinclined to do so. This dosn't apply to other eastern mages such as the immortalist or geomancer, it's a property of the Wu Shih class specifically.

[glitterboy2098]

So say you've got a Chinese Godling or Demi-god and in keeping with the mythology and setting the character has Wu Shih rather than Ley Line Walker as their magical class, just what spells do they get? Obviously all chi magic spells equal to or lower than their current level but what about Western spells? Wu Shih can learn Western spells without penalty (unlike Western mages learning Chinese magic) so would they gain those automatically as well from the LLW list or are they something the character would have to learn like any other character or require the LLW mage selection for their other magical power if they want both sets of spells automatically?

i'd say that if your going to do that substitution (which makes sense for the context), they'd only get Chi Magic automatically.. if they want other discipline's magic spells they'd have to learn them from teachers/research/whatever in game.

[Nightmask]

I dunno Drewkitty, I checked mystic china myself and it looks like Nightmask has the right of it. The Wu Shih specifically can learn western magic without conversion, though they seem rather disinclined to do so. This dosn't apply to other eastern mages such as the immortalist or geomancer, it's a property of the Wu Shih class specifically.

I would say that has more to do with lack of access than being uninterested in learning western spells. You aren't likely to see a Western mage tooling around in China or the surrounding Asian countries where he might encounter a Wu Shih nor see the Wu Shih traveling abroad where he could be exposed to a Western mage to learn a Western spell. While a few certainly cross the borders it's probably not a common occurrence. It would certainly make an interesting partnership though of a Wu Shih and Wizard partnering up to learn all that they can of each other's magics.

[eliakon]

PERSONALLY I would give them the Chi spells, and the lv3 martial art as their 'power' if they want to spend skills to get some other regular H2H I would allow that too. And just like an arcanist they could LEARN other spells they come across, but they don't get them free. Just my two cents worth on how I would do things based on how I interpret the rules.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I dunno Drewkitty, I checked mystic china myself and it looks like Nightmask has the right of it. The Wu Shih specifically can learn western magic without conversion, though they seem rather disinclined to do so. This dosn't apply to other eastern mages such as the immortalist or geomancer, it's a property of the Wu Shih class specifically.

page/paragraph?

[Nekira Sudacne]

page 68, bottom of the left collum and top of the right.

[drewkitty ~..~]

He/she is even capable of learning and manipulating invocation spells.

Which is much like saying LLW can learn Nazca Line magic. Not learn them unrestrictively.

i.e.: Wu Shih are the only one of the three types that can learn how to cast magic through invocations. But they would need to learn the style of casting magic via invocations. Much like how LLW can learn NLD spells "after" they have learned how to cast via drawing the spells.

However, learning to do so would be "just another skill" since they have already overcome the hurtle of being able to cast magic at all.

I am not saying that they have to follow the same rules for western mages need to take when learning how to cast chi magic.

[eliakon]

He/she is even capable of learning and manipulating invocation spells.

Which is much like saying LLW can learn Nazca Line magic. Not learn them unrestrictively.

i.e.: Wu Shih are the only one of the three types that can learn how to cast magic through invocations. But they would need to learn the style of casting magic via invocations. Much like how LLW can learn NLD spells "after" they have learned how to cast via drawing the spells.

However, learning to do so would be "just another skill" since they have already overcome the hurtle of being able to cast magic at all.

I am not saying that they have to follow the same rules for western mages need to take when learning how to cast chi magic.

That is what it looked like you WERE saying. That they have to convert everything to a 'chi magic spell' when thats not true, they can learn invocations (and I would assume they would follow the same rules as an arcanist but individual milage may vary there)

[Nightmask]

He/she is even capable of learning and manipulating invocation spells.

Which is much like saying LLW can learn Nazca Line magic. Not learn them unrestrictively.

i.e.: Wu Shih are the only one of the three types that can learn how to cast magic through invocations. But they would need to learn the style of casting magic via invocations. Much like how LLW can learn NLD spells "after" they have learned how to cast via drawing the spells.

However, learning to do so would be "just another skill" since they have already overcome the hurtle of being able to cast magic at all.

I am not saying that they have to follow the same rules for western mages need to take when learning how to cast chi magic.

That is what it looked like you WERE saying. That they have to convert everything to a 'chi magic spell' when thats not true, they can learn invocations (and I would assume they would follow the same rules as an arcanist but individual milage may vary there)

Yes I'm not seeing why some are having trouble understanding that, the text says 'they can even learn invocation magic' it doesn't say 'they can' learn evocation magic after laboriously converting it to chi magic'. A simple statement that Wu Shih can learn invocation magicks but a lot of text on how Arcanists and other Western style mages have to either learn the basics of working with chi to learn chi magic spells directly or must spend months or years converting a spell to invocation magics (and some are explicitly banned from conversion). There is no mention at all of ever converting invocation magic to chi magic anywhere in the book, if there is I can't find it. There certainly aren't any rules given for doing it.

[drewkitty ~..~]

That is what it looked like you WERE saying. That they have to convert everything to a 'chi magic spell' when thats not true, they can learn invocations (and I would assume they would follow the same rules as an arcanist but individual milage may vary there)

What I said is that they would have to "convert the western magic spells" OR "learn how to cast invocations".

Yes, I am considering all the rules about magic since the MC book came out when answering the question.

Not! just looking at one sentence printing in MC in a Vacuum, absent every thing but that one sentence.

[eliakon]

That is what it looked like you WERE saying. That they have to convert everything to a 'chi magic spell' when thats not true, they can learn invocations (and I would assume they would follow the same rules as an arcanist but individual milage may vary there)

What I said is that they would have to "convert the western magic spells" OR "learn how to cast invocations".

Yes, I am considering all the rules about magic since the MC book came out when answering the question.

Not! just looking at one sentence printing in MC in a Vacuum, absent every thing but that one sentence.

So, what line, in what book specifically states that it superceeds the listed class write up, and that invocations are not avalible? Book, Page, and Paragraph please, thank you.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The concepts in the newer rules do not allow for it.

As for where...read all of the magic rules and magic classes, in all the PB game books.

[eliakon]

The concepts in the newer rules do not allow for it.

As for where...read all of the magic rules and magic classes, in all the PB game books.

as you are fond of saying Page and Paragraph please. As for the idea that 'newer rules' do not allow it. I am not aware of ANY newer rules for N&SS, MC or BTS (magic) or any line for that matter that says that 'the old class no longer works as written' Now if you have a house rule that does this thats fine, but its just that a house rule not canon, and should not be presented as such unless you have a source to back up the claim.

[Nightmask]

The concepts in the newer rules do not allow for it.

As for where...read all of the magic rules and magic classes, in all the PB game books.

as you are fond of saying Page and Paragraph please. As for the idea that 'newer rules' do not allow it. I am not aware of ANY newer rules for N&SS, MC or BTS (magic) or any line for that matter that says that 'the old class no longer works as written' Now if you have a house rule that does this thats fine, but its just that a house rule not canon, and should not be presented as such unless you have a source to back up the claim.

Obviously there are no rules that state that the class ability of the Wu Shih to learn invocation magics without difficulty no longer exist, the Wu Shih has no need to convert invocation magics into chi magic and never has needed to. With all of its deficits it's one of the few (if only) aspects of the character that makes it worth playing, provided you're in a setting like Rifts that makes invocation magics available.

EDIT:

I also wonder how anyone can insist the one simple and to the point line that says 'yes it can be done' doesn't exist or that it isn't that important and requires a bunch of other text to say something so simple. It'd be like looking at a character and going 'well I don't accept that bonus it has there, not without some text elsewhere that also says the character gets that bonus'. When a character is said to have something they have it and only an explicit 'that character no longer can do that' in a later book can remove it or render it into an optional rule that you continue to use.

[Nightmask]

For some follow-up questions regarding Chinese demi-gods and godlings, I wonder how else you'd have to modify the class from Pantheons of the Megaverse to properly suit them. Unlike non-Chinese versions they have a set of Martial Arts that are required for a particular magical class so presumably they end up automatically end up knowing the appropriate art and being at least semi-devine ignore mortal limitations (such as not being able to know other martial arts if you know a particular one) if they had multiple magical classes.

You do end up with some interesting thoughts though, a demi-god Fang Shih with Wu Shih would continue to advance their Martial Art rather than being locked, and a demi-god Fang Shih with a Tao Shih ends up with two martial arts even though the one as a mortal doesn't allow for learning another.

Plus how would you modify the classes to suit the Chinese pantheon? I can see including a 'Tremendous PPE' and 'Tremendous Chi' option for special powers, but what else? How would one adjust the classes to reflect the uniqueness of Chinese godlings and demi-gods?

[Nekira Sudacne]

I would actually wavie the martial arts requirement. The requirement to have a martial art seems to be focused on mortals who actually need to train to channel their Chi. so if a demigod or godling has chi magic innately, I would say they would also be able to use their chi naturally without training. granted, this would be limited to the basic chi powers (meditation, awareness, and defending aginst negative chi). they would still need to practice a martial art to have discrete chi powers.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I would actually waive the martial arts requirement. The requirement to have a martial art seems to be focused on mortals who actually need to train to channel their Chi. So if a demigod or godling has chi magic innately, I would say they would also be able to use their chi naturally without training. granted, this would be limited to the basic chi powers (meditation, awareness, and defending against negative chi). they would still need to practice a martial art to have discrete chi powers.

Agrees with the above. However, if the 1st sentence was phrased....
'I would actually waive the martial arts requirement, if the demigod or godling has chi magic as this innate power.'
IOW
With the waiving of the requirement for tone of those MAF along with the need for having chi magic as their "godling" power together in one idea.

[Tor]

dosn't mean that 10th level demigods with shifter powers start learning all temporal spells of equal or lesser level. they can but it's not the focus. .

I'm a bit unclear on the Godling ability, seeing as how it gives intuitive magic of a sorts, CAN people who select this power learn magic by paying to be taught spells and stuff like that?

There's nothing forbidding it, but I don't really like the idea. On the other hand, this is a boon for anyone selecting Mystic since they're usually so limited in what they can cast.

Makes me wonder if you select Mystic if you get the psionic abilities though.

[Nekira Sudacne]

dosn't mean that 10th level demigods with shifter powers start learning all temporal spells of equal or lesser level. they can but it's not the focus. .

I'm a bit unclear on the Godling ability, seeing as how it gives intuitive magic of a sorts, CAN people who select this power learn magic by paying to be taught spells and stuff like that?

There's nothing forbidding it, but I don't really like the idea. On the other hand, this is a boon for anyone selecting Mystic since they're usually so limited in what they can cast.

Makes me wonder if you select Mystic if you get the psionic abilities though.[/quote]

It's in the wording. It says the godling has all the abilities of a particular practitioner of magic. not just all the spells, all the abilities. that means the psionics of a mystic fall under the abilities of the practitioner of magic. and sinse for ley line walkers and shifters, ect, the ability to learn spells at any time is listed as one of the abilities of the class, they get that too.

[Tor]

it is stated that Wu Shih can learn Western magic without any mention at all that they have to 'learn how Western Mages do it' or 'convert it to Chi Magic' unlike all the effort to state how difficult it is for Western mages learning chi spells. That is the advantage Wu Shih have over their poor spell list and so many other restrictions, they can learn Western spells just as easily as they do Eastern, it's Western mages that have the trouble wrapping their minds around Eastern Magic, it doesn't go both ways. Eastern mages have no problems learning Western spells such as an Arcanist, Wizard, or Ley Line Walker know.

To clarify: would it be only the Wu Shih who could learn western magic, or could the other PCCs capable of casting chi magic (the Immortalist and the Geomancer) also learn it?

I ask because they have restrictions even from what chi magic they can learn (Geomancers can only learn Geomancy-type magic, and it seems to imply that they can only cast what they learn automatically on their table, as opposed to learning high-level spells ahead of time like the other two can) or how they can cast chi magic (the Immortalist can only cast through use of calligraphy).

To support this claim, can you point out where it addresses Wu Shih (or other Eastern spellcasters) being able to learn Western magic? I'm having trouble locating it.

page 68, bottom of the left collum and top of the right.

This only says "even capable of learning and manipulating invocation spells". Capable of learning doesn't specify how, or how easily, or WHICH invocation spells (perhaps it only means invocation versions adapted from chi spells?)

Considering how this blurb isn't repeated under the 'western mage' section or the Wu Shih OCC itself, it feels a bit insubstantial.

the text says 'they can even learn invocation magic' it doesn't say 'they can' learn evocation magic after laboriously converting it to chi magic'.

True, and since those spells don't manipulate chi, there would be no purpose in converting them to chi magic, since you could easily use spare chi to create PPE if you needed it. The reason chi magic needs to be converted is because most normal spellcasters can't manipulate chi to cast it at all.

That said, being able to learn without converting it doesn't say anything about how easy it is for them to learn invocation spells or how effectively they cast them. Considering classes like necromancer (who are normal taught invocation mages) have penalties like having to spend more PPE on some kinds of spells, that an OCC which learned to cast spells initially through chi, not speaking, etc. would be BETTER than the necromancer (not having to spend double PPE for a bunch of spells) is kind of odd.

Although, considering how low the PPE is for these guys, and considering it's questionable if they can draw PPE from ley lines or other people (it forbids the latter for fueling chi magic, but this probably doesn't apply for invocation magic cast by a wu, so 'dirty' PPE would be allowed) it might be kinda balanced even without the doubled PPE.

But I like the idea of doubling the PPE costs for invocation magic, considering their background.

It's in the wording. It says the godling has all the abilities of a particular practitioner of magic. not just all the spells, all the abilities. that means the psionics of a mystic fall under the abilities of the practitioner of magic. and sinse for ley line walkers and shifters, ect, the ability to learn spells at any time is listed as one of the abilities of the class, they get that too.

Yeah... but it's also just called 'magical' and these are psionic... and I always took the 'every spell of each XP level' to replace, rather than supplement, the automatic spells OCCs got.

Like I don't think a Godling with Shifter abilities would start out with Call Lightning, for example. Should they?

[Nekira Sudacne]

page 68, bottom of the left collum and top of the right.

This only says "even capable of learning and manipulating invocation spells". Capable of learning doesn't specify how, or how easily, or WHICH invocation spells (perhaps it only means invocation versions adapted from chi spells?)

Considering how this blurb isn't repeated under the 'western mage' section or the Wu Shih OCC itself, it feels a bit insubstantial.

I don't see why that is. They can learn spells. it's not stated to be especially difficult, and there dosn't seem to be any reason to assume it's any harder than learning any other spell for them.

Yeah... but it's also just called 'magical' and these are psionic... and I always took the 'every spell of each XP level' to replace, rather than supplement, the automatic spells OCCs got.

Like I don't think a Godling with Shifter abilities would start out with Call Lightning, for example. Should they?

well yes, it seems to read easially enough. the very first thing it says is "All the abilities of a pratictioner of magic". the starting spell list is listed under the abilities of the shifter OCC, hence, they gain those spells. yes, it's intended to be absurdly powerful.

[Nightmask]

it is stated that Wu Shih can learn Western magic without any mention at all that they have to 'learn how Western Mages do it' or 'convert it to Chi Magic' unlike all the effort to state how difficult it is for Western mages learning chi spells. That is the advantage Wu Shih have over their poor spell list and so many other restrictions, they can learn Western spells just as easily as they do Eastern, it's Western mages that have the trouble wrapping their minds around Eastern Magic, it doesn't go both ways. Eastern mages have no problems learning Western spells such as an Arcanist, Wizard, or Ley Line Walker know.

To clarify: would it be only the Wu Shih who could learn western magic, or could the other PCCs capable of casting chi magic (the Immortalist and the Geomancer) also learn it?

I ask because they have restrictions even from what chi magic they can learn (Geomancers can only learn Geomancy-type magic, and it seems to imply that they can only cast what they learn automatically on their table, as opposed to learning high-level spells ahead of time like the other two can) or how they can cast chi magic (the Immortalist can only cast through use of calligraphy).

Given it only explicitly notes the ability to learn Western Magic under the Wu Shih then the other mystic china mage classes wouldn't be able to learn those spells. Fang Shih as noted are bound to only learning a limited selection of spells and the Tao Shih only references being able to work Chi Magic via specially prepared and burned script, no mention that they can learn non-Chi magic.

page 68, bottom of the left collum and top of the right.

This only says "even capable of learning and manipulating invocation spells". Capable of learning doesn't specify how, or how easily, or WHICH invocation spells (perhaps it only means invocation versions adapted from chi spells?)

Considering how this blurb isn't repeated under the 'western mage' section or the Wu Shih OCC itself, it feels a bit insubstantial.

It doesn't have to be reposted to be substantial. You don't expect them to repost other things to qualify as substantial why would you think they would need to waste space requoting in the Western mages section (Which is devoted to Western mages learning Chi Magic and not about Eastern Mages learning Western Magic) when they only need to tell you once that they can learn western spells.

the text says 'they can even learn invocation magic' it doesn't say 'they can' learn evocation magic after laboriously converting it to chi magic'.

True, and since those spells don't manipulate chi, there would be no purpose in converting them to chi magic, since you could easily use spare chi to create PPE if you needed it. The reason chi magic needs to be converted is because most normal spellcasters can't manipulate chi to cast it at all.

That said, being able to learn without converting it doesn't say anything about how easy it is for them to learn invocation spells or how effectively they cast them. Considering classes like necromancer (who are normal taught invocation mages) have penalties like having to spend more PPE on some kinds of spells, that an OCC which learned to cast spells initially through chi, not speaking, etc. would be BETTER than the necromancer (not having to spend double PPE for a bunch of spells) is kind of odd.

Although, considering how low the PPE is for these guys, and considering it's questionable if they can draw PPE from ley lines or other people (it forbids the latter for fueling chi magic, but this probably doesn't apply for invocation magic cast by a wu, so 'dirty' PPE would be allowed) it might be kinda balanced even without the doubled PPE.

But I like the idea of doubling the PPE costs for invocation magic, considering their background.

Sorry but no you can't consider classes like the Necromancer in a case like this and try and extend it out that in spite of not having any limitations or penalties listed that Wu Shih have to have them 'just because'. There's absolutely nothing to justify doubling the PPE costs for the Wu Shih casting Western Spells because no such penalty is given, ergo such a penalty does not exist. Exceptions when they exist are listed, if no exception is listed then none exists. Being told they can learn Western spells without any qualifiers means just what it says, they learn the spells just as easily as they learn Eastern spells and cast them sans penalties of any sort.

[Nightmask]

I would actually wavie the martial arts requirement. The requirement to have a martial art seems to be focused on mortals who actually need to train to channel their Chi. so if a demigod or godling has chi magic innately, I would say they would also be able to use their chi naturally without training. granted, this would be limited to the basic chi powers (meditation, awareness, and defending aginst negative chi). they would still need to practice a martial art to have discrete chi powers.

Except why? I mean it's not like you generally run across a demi-god or especially a godling that doesn't have some kind of martial art (even if it's generally from the generic combat training categories). It would certainly be in keeping with a Chinese godling or demi-god to have that Martial art as a basic outgrowth of things. Certainly gives them a more unique flavor than yet another godling using the generic combat skills yet again.

Of course there's the humorous consideration that you could end up with a Godling Enlightened Immortal running around, since one could learn Discorporate and overdo it or just decide to step up to even greater power and enlightenment which even the true Chinese gods and demons are unwilling to dare.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I would actually wavie the martial arts requirement. The requirement to have a martial art seems to be focused on mortals who actually need to train to channel their Chi. so if a demigod or godling has chi magic innately, I would say they would also be able to use their chi naturally without training. granted, this would be limited to the basic chi powers (meditation, awareness, and defending aginst negative chi). they would still need to practice a martial art to have discrete chi powers.

Except why? I mean it's not like you generally run across a demi-god or especially a godling that doesn't have some kind of martial art (even if it's generally from the generic combat training categories). It would certainly be in keeping with a Chinese godling or demi-god to have that Martial art as a basic outgrowth of things. Certainly gives them a more unique flavor than yet another godling using the generic combat skills yet again.

Of course there's the humorous consideration that you could end up with a Godling Enlightened Immortal running around, since one could learn Discorporate and overdo it or just decide to step up to even greater power and enlightenment which even the true Chinese gods and demons are unwilling to dare.

Why? because it seems more fitting for a godling with such a connection to chi to innately know how to use it.

I was no in way ENCOURAGING the lack of a martial art in such a case, only I couldn't see it as an actual requirement.

[Tor]

This is a problem that can be skirted if we don't have people know inuitive chi magic. Makes about as much sense as giving intuitive martial arts powers.

Meh... I still find it odd that a Wu guy's ability to learn western magic isn't reiterated under the PCC itself.

[drewkitty ~..~]

"Why would a GL or DG need to to have a martial arts form to be able to have chi powers other then the basic three?" was asked. (I did expand the question a bit.)

Gives the *forehead slap*"doh" simple answer any body who can read can understand.
Because if they do not take an MAF that chi manipulation is a part of what is practiced then they do not get any chi powers except for the basic three because no chi powers were taught and no chi powers were practiced.

Of course a GM would need to figure out if this is allowable in her/his game, because all the text related to chi is in non-setting books.
---
However, if you where going down the Rifts china books route (so it is rifts canon legal), then nether a GL nor a DG could learn "chi magic" because none exists in rifts. At best it will be in the next Rifts China 3, but that is not even being discussed in any updates at this time. So it would be premature to even discuss this.
-------------
Discorporating more then allowed makes said char a NPC, as per the relevant canon.

[Tor]

There isn't a strict limit on discorporations, just a percentile chance you'll be lost in the Tao forever if you do it more than once per day. Makes me wonder if there's some way to modify those odds... what about that FoM spell about beat insurmountable odds? If you choose '1 in 100' sure that means you can auto-pass percentile checks?

[Nightmask]

There isn't a strict limit on discorporations, just a percentile chance you'll be lost in the Tao forever if you do it more than once per day. Makes me wonder if there's some way to modify those odds... what about that FoM spell about beat insurmountable odds? If you choose '1 in 100' sure that means you can auto-pass percentile checks?

There's no way the spell would apply in this case, the check is to see if you resist the temptation to learn 'The Secrets of The Tao' that you glimpse while Discorporated, not something like see if you can save against poison. Every time after the first you're eroding your resistance and risking giving yourself over and spending a few centuries becoming an Enlightened Immortal.

[Tor]

If resistance were eroded with multiple uses, it would be harder to make the save each time, but it's the same roll every time, so I don't think so.

I also find it strange that for something involving temptation there isn't some kinda ME linkage. That the temptation is of equal risk to everyone seems odd. You'd think some would be more tempted by it than others.

Also permanent discorporation has nothing to do with the various stages of being an Enlightened Immortal. Discorporating once, for whatever duration (melee attack) enlightens your soul and makes you a reincarnator.

What makes EIs distinctive as they develope is the elixer of immortality, which is done while being part of the real world, not by being discorporated for long periods.

When it comes to discorporate I think you are either gone for a melee attack or gone for eterenity. No middle ground. So EIs aren't made by lengthly discorporation, they're made by internal alchemy refining the body for use by an immortal soul.

[Nightmask]

If resistance were eroded with multiple uses, it would be harder to make the save each time, but it's the same roll every time, so I don't think so.

I also find it strange that for something involving temptation there isn't some kinda ME linkage. That the temptation is of equal risk to everyone seems odd. You'd think some would be more tempted by it than others.

Also permanent discorporation has nothing to do with the various stages of being an Enlightened Immortal. Discorporating once, for whatever duration (melee attack) enlightens your soul and makes you a reincarnator.

What makes EIs distinctive as they develope is the elixer of immortality, which is done while being part of the real world, not by being discorporated for long periods.

When it comes to discorporate I think you are either gone for a melee attack or gone for eterenity. No middle ground. So EIs aren't made by lengthly discorporation, they're made by internal alchemy refining the body for use by an immortal soul.

ME doesn't apply to everything, some things are equally troublesome no matter how strong or weak your will and the temptation to permanently discorporate is one of those.

We (or at least I and someone) have already gone over that point and no Discorporation does NOT enlighten you or make you a reincarnator, unless you've chosen to permanently do so Discorporate does not enlighten one whatsoever only makes them aware of what can lead to Enlightened Immortality. Being part of the 'real world' isn't what leads you to becoming an Enlightened Immortal either, only discovering the secret of how to refine that 'Elixir of Immortality', you might manage it if you try long enough in the real world or you can definitely learn it once you choose to permanently discorporate and gain the information directly from the source.

Frankly all of that has absolutely no connection to what's actually written. The nature of the Enlightened Immortal is to not just have an always reincarnating soul but an eternal body as well which is why they work to develop at least the first level refinement of Internal Alchemy. Discorporate directly states that by Permanent it means you're gone until you learn the mysteries of the Tao and develop that first stage of refinement and that's of sufficient length of time you're gone from any campaign you're currently in. Enlightened Immortals are only gone 'for eternity' after reaching the ninth level of refinement and choosing to do so but there's something of an agreement not to do so.

[Tor]

Nowhere does it mention that you must permanently discorporate to become enlightened. You only need to see the true state of the universe (unity) once, and briefly, to be forever enlightened.

Refining the Elixer of Immortality prevents the body from aging, but it has has nothing to do with the enlightenment of the soul and reincarnation. It supplements it.

If you permanently discorporate you can't EVER learn to refine the elixir of immortality, as there's no coming back once you do it permanently. There is no use for the elixer while discorporated because you don't even have a body. Nor does it say anything about discorporation imparting the knowledge of Internal Alchemy. That's a completely different area of knowledge which is rather unspecified in regard to how one learns it.

Discorporate directly states that by Permanent it means you're gone until you learn the mysteries of the Tao and develop that first stage of refinement

No, it doesn't say that at all. There is no mention of refining the Elixer, nor of this being how people learn to become the Enlightened Immortal type defined earlier.

Permanent discorporation removes a person permanently, and enlightened immortals are not permanently removed, they live in this world. You learn Internal Alchemy (and how to Refine the Elixer) while physically existing and manipulating your internal organs.

People who simply Discorporate permanently are not learning how to refine the elixer, they're skipping it entirely. Pg 132 under the Ninth Refinement mentions that this precedes permanent discorporation. It even says "See Zenjorike". This means that these Enlightened Immortals have NEVER permanently discorporated... because it's not permanent if they're in physical form.

Enlightened Immortals must have discorporated briefly at least once to see the true state of the universe to attain their reincarnation ability. That's it though. How the rest of it is attained is unspecified.

Discorporation says you can choose to discorporate permanently at any time. It doesn't say you have to go through the stages of refining the elixer. That's something the EIs do in their spare time to make life on Earth more bearable and fun while they stick around to teach others how to discorporate.

[dragon_blaze_99]

Just and FYI
http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/chin ... hology.php

[Nightmask]

Nowhere does it mention that you must permanently discorporate to become enlightened. You only need to see the true state of the universe (unity) once, and briefly, to be forever enlightened.

Refining the Elixer of Immortality prevents the body from aging, but it has has nothing to do with the enlightenment of the soul and reincarnation. It supplements it.

If you permanently discorporate you can't EVER learn to refine the elixir of immortality, as there's no coming back once you do it permanently. There is no use for the elixer while discorporated because you don't even have a body. Nor does it say anything about discorporation imparting the knowledge of Internal Alchemy. That's a completely different area of knowledge which is rather unspecified in regard to how one learns it.

Discorporate directly states that by Permanent it means you're gone until you learn the mysteries of the Tao and develop that first stage of refinement

No, it doesn't say that at all. There is no mention of refining the Elixer, nor of this being how people learn to become the Enlightened Immortal type defined earlier.

Permanent discorporation removes a person permanently, and enlightened immortals are not permanently removed, they live in this world. You learn Internal Alchemy (and how to Refine the Elixer) while physically existing and manipulating your internal organs.

People who simply Discorporate permanently are not learning how to refine the elixer, they're skipping it entirely. Pg 132 under the Ninth Refinement mentions that this precedes permanent discorporation. It even says "See Zenjorike". This means that these Enlightened Immortals have NEVER permanently discorporated... because it's not permanent if they're in physical form.

Enlightened Immortals must have discorporated briefly at least once to see the true state of the universe to attain their reincarnation ability. That's it though. How the rest of it is attained is unspecified.

Discorporation says you can choose to discorporate permanently at any time. It doesn't say you have to go through the stages of refining the elixer. That's something the EIs do in their spare time to make life on Earth more bearable and fun while they stick around to teach others how to discorporate.

Tor, seriously, go read Mystic China again. You're just all kinds of wrong here. 'This is the first step in a character's road to the Taoist version of immortality. That is, at any time the character may choose to Discorporate permanently!' in the third paragraph. It then goes on to state that the character is also permanently out of the game because time operates differently as the newly enlightened Immortal absorbs the secrets of the Tao.

Page 128 regarding the First time Refined Elixir of Immortality states that your first power is perpetual reincarnation, which means that completely opposite of your statement the first refinement is where you gain your perpetual reincarnation from and page 127 notes the entire point of reaching the level of enlightenment that produces the Elixir of Immortality is to have not just have an undying spirit but an undying body as well.

There is nothing that says Enlightened Immortals have to have Discorporated at some point in their lives but it does directly state one will become an Enlightened Immortal if you do choose to stay discorporated and learn the secrets of the Tao, which obviously includes learning the secrets of Internal Alchemy to produce the Elixir of Immortality at which point when you're done decades or centuries later you reincorporate to continue your pursuits of further refinements.

[Tor]

seriously, go read Mystic China again. You're just all kinds of wrong here.

Not an argument, not helpful without specifics. But moving on...

'This is the first step in a character's road to the Taoist version of immortality. That is, at any time the character may choose to Discorporate permanently!' in the third paragraph.

I've read that part, yes. We seem to be interpreting it differently. It's admittedly pretty vague and potentially prone to different interpretations, I'll relent.

It then goes on to state that the character is also permanently out of the game because time operates differently as the newly enlightened Immortal absorbs the secrets of the Tao.

Yes: if you permanently discorporate.

Enlightened immortals have never done that. For them, permanent discorporation is the '10th step' they may choose to do after the 9th refinement. I say step because permanent discorporation is not part of Internal Alchemy (since it is a Zenjoriki).

Page 128 regarding the First time Refined Elixir of Immortality states that your first power is perpetual reincarnation, which means that completely opposite of your statement the first refinement is where you gain your perpetual reincarnation from

This is a case where we have a contradiction. While you're correct that the reincarnation thing is mentioned under the first refinement, the introductory text for the EIs as a whole clearly described that the enlightenment and reincarnation of the soul is a step that precedes the application of Internal Alchemy to refine the Elixir.

What this means, if you go into the background beyond the 'stat section', is that the they're reminding us of the power a first stager will have. It is not stating that it is Internal Alchemy and the First Refinement that imparts perpetual reincarnation.

To think that is the case would require completely ignoring the EI introduction section, which makes a clear distinction between the two steps.

page 127 notes the entire point of reaching the level of enlightenment that produces the Elixir of Immortality is to have not just have an undying spirit but an undying body as well.

Enlightenment doesn't produce the Elixir, that's Internal Alchemy. The desire for the undying body is to make the job of living on earth easier.

Basically if you don't forge the elixer, you age normally, so you'd be limited to standard lifespans, say 50-100 years, plus you would suffer the infirmities of old age and stuff.

Since that sucks, EIs make their lives better by using IA to refine the EoI so that they can putter around in a body long as they like and only fear death via violence/accident, and remain spry and happy.

There is nothing that says Enlightened Immortals have to have Discorporated at some point in their lives

True, but it is strongly implied because discorporation is the only listed means of attaining an enlightened spirit. If there are alternative means of seeing the universe's true state then that's cool, I'm just not aware of'm.

it does directly state one will become an Enlightened Immortal if you do choose to stay discorporated and learn the secrets of the Tao

No, this is not stated. When discussing permanent discorporation (it says PERMANENT, not 'stay') it mentions you 'join the ranks of the immortals'.

Which, while true, has nothing to do with the refinement of the elixir. I think the problem here might be that the section is called 'enlightened immortals' but it's actually about a sub-group of Internal Alchemists who remain on earth. Stats do not exist for those who permanently discorporate, whether or not they go through those stages or not.

includes learning the secrets of Internal Alchemy to produce the Elixir of Immortality at which point when you're done decades or centuries later you reincorporate to continue your pursuits of further refinements.

This is pure conjecture on your part, text doesn't describe anything like this.

Not sure where you're getting the idea that Internal Alchemy is knowledge imparted by permanent discorporation. It can't be, because it is learned by beings who did not permanently discorporate.

There is no such thing as 'discorporate for a decade or a century'. There is discorporation for a melee attack, or discorporation for an eternity. There's no description of any middle ground.

[Nightmask]

'This is the first step in a character's road to the Taoist version of immortality. That is, at any time the character may choose to Discorporate permanently!' in the third paragraph.

I've read that part, yes. We seem to be interpreting it differently. It's admittedly pretty vague and potentially prone to different interpretations, I'll relent.

It's not vague at all, it explains in the rest of the paragraph what's meant by permanent.

It then goes on to state that the character is also permanently out of the game because time operates differently as the newly enlightened Immortal absorbs the secrets of the Tao.

Yes: if you permanently discorporate.

Enlightened immortals have never done that. For them, permanent discorporation is the '10th step' they may choose to do after the 9th refinement. I say step because permanent discorporation is not part of Internal Alchemy (since it is a Zenjoriki).

No, that's just wrong. Permanent does not mean what you keep insisting it means. You're permanently out of the game because the time it takes to absorb the mysteries that evolve you into an Enlightened Immortal takes way too long for you to ever return as a 1st stage Enlightened Immortal in the length of a campaign.

Page 128 regarding the First time Refined Elixir of Immortality states that your first power is perpetual reincarnation, which means that completely opposite of your statement the first refinement is where you gain your perpetual reincarnation from

This is a case where we have a contradiction. While you're correct that the reincarnation thing is mentioned under the first refinement, the introductory text for the EIs as a whole clearly described that the enlightenment and reincarnation of the soul is a step that precedes the application of Internal Alchemy to refine the Elixir.

What this means, if you go into the background beyond the 'stat section', is that the they're reminding us of the power a first stager will have. It is not stating that it is Internal Alchemy and the First Refinement that imparts perpetual reincarnation.

To think that is the case would require completely ignoring the EI introduction section, which makes a clear distinction between the two steps.

No, the purpose of the Internal Alchemy and reaching Enlightened Immortal status is to have an immortal body as well as spirit, you can't have perpetual reincarnation until you achieve the enlightenment to produce the first refinement of the Elixir because only then can you bring about your physical reincarnation as well as have a body that ceases to age.

page 127 notes the entire point of reaching the level of enlightenment that produces the Elixir of Immortality is to have not just have an undying spirit but an undying body as well.

Enlightenment doesn't produce the Elixir, that's Internal Alchemy. The desire for the undying body is to make the job of living on earth easier.

Basically if you don't forge the elixer, you age normally, so you'd be limited to standard lifespans, say 50-100 years, plus you would suffer the infirmities of old age and stuff.

Since that sucks, EIs make their lives better by using IA to refine the EoI so that they can putter around in a body long as they like and only fear death via violence/accident, and remain spry and happy.

Yes Enlightenment produces the elixir and without the elixir you're not an Enlightened Immortal and age and die like anyone else since you're just a mortal.

There is nothing that says Enlightened Immortals have to have Discorporated at some point in their lives

True, but it is strongly implied because discorporation is the only listed means of attaining an enlightened spirit. If there are alternative means of seeing the universe's true state then that's cool, I'm just not aware of'm.

Yes Discorporation is certainly the only listed method in the game, at least it's the only certain way to achieve Enlightenment.

it does directly state one will become an Enlightened Immortal if you do choose to stay discorporated and learn the secrets of the Tao

No, this is not stated. When discussing permanent discorporation (it says PERMANENT, not 'stay') it mentions you 'join the ranks of the immortals'.

Which, while true, has nothing to do with the refinement of the elixir. I think the problem here might be that the section is called 'enlightened immortals' but it's actually about a sub-group of Internal Alchemists who remain on earth. Stats do not exist for those who permanently discorporate, whether or not they go through those stages or not.

Yes, and it states that time operates differently there as you learn those mysteries which it wouldn't mention if you didn't eventually return as a 1st stage Enlightened Immortal. There are no 'sub-groups' of Internal Alchemists, if you've achieved Internal Alchemy you're an Enlightened Immortal and if you're an Enlightened Immortal you must know Internal Alchemy.

includes learning the secrets of Internal Alchemy to produce the Elixir of Immortality at which point when you're done decades or centuries later you reincorporate to continue your pursuits of further refinements.

This is pure conjecture on your part, text doesn't describe anything like this.

Not sure where you're getting the idea that Internal Alchemy is knowledge imparted by permanent discorporation. It can't be, because it is learned by beings who did not permanently discorporate.

There is no such thing as 'discorporate for a decade or a century'. There is discorporation for a melee attack, or discorporation for an eternity. There's no description of any middle ground.

Seriously, you just aren't taking the time to actually read over the entries. There is no 'discorporate for an eternity' there is 'discorporate to become a 1st stage Enlightened Immortal' and 'discorporate for a melee attack'. Permanently simply means 'oh wow these secrets I've glimpsed I want to stay and learn them all', just as you can decide to permanently move to China from England but 20 years later go back to visit. Since it states you're out of the game permanently due to the time it takes for you to learn these secrets and ascend to another level of existence as an Enlightened Immortal, and again Internal Alchemy is the salient aspect of an Enlightened Immortal so you must gain Internal Alchemy if you choose to discorporate and become an Immortal.

In any case this isn't the thread for this discussion, if you want to create such a thread in the Mystic China forum feel free to do so but I think it's all played out. You've got your position that I disagree completely with how you're spinning the text and that's not going to change.

[Tor]

it explains in the rest of the paragraph what's meant by permanent.

Why would 'permanent' be used to mean two different things in two different areas that refer to 'permanent discorporation'?

Permanent does not mean what you keep insisting it means. You're permanently out of the game because the time it takes to absorb the mysteries that evolve you into an Enlightened Immortal takes way too long for you to ever return as a 1st stage Enlightened Immortal in the length of a campaign.

I admit that's a confusing statement, but it's a rather odd restriction. What if the other PCs had a means of skipping ahead in time, like temporal magic, hibernation, etc?

If it was possible for a character return, the amount of time should have been indicated. Nowhere does it mention the need to discorporate for extended periods to learn about internal alchemy though.

While you're discorporated you don't even have a body or organs, so how would discorporation impart knowledge of how to control them? How do ghosts practice yoga?

the purpose of the Internal Alchemy and reaching Enlightened Immortal status is to have an immortal body as well as spirit, you can't have perpetual reincarnation until you achieve the enlightenment to produce the first refinement of the Elixir because only then can you bring about your physical reincarnation as well as have a body that ceases to age.

The text doesn't support this viewpoint, because it lists the reincarnation first, and the elixir second. These are distinctly mentioned points. It was a bad design to group them under the first refinement, but it is not the refinement that causes reincarnation, refinement is something that follows reincarnation based on the introductory description.

The elixir has nothing to do with reincarnation, as that is a spiritual thing. The elixir is about organ control, and you don't have organs when your body dies and your spirit reincarnates into a new baby.

Enlightenment produces the elixir

You're focusing on page 128's left column, please focus on page 127's right column. Under Internal Alchemy: "having a spirit that never dies is not enough. The goal is for the body to also live forever"

The term 'also' means it is an addition, that the IA process of elixir refinement follows and supplements enlightenment. "Not enough" means that it IS possible to only have an immortal spirit (via Discorporating and seeing the universe) without having the additional 'all Zenjoriki and you never die of old age' benefits of refining the elixir.

Also note under Weaknesses/Vulnerability: "even if the physical body is killed, the spirit/soul will be reincarnated. This is mentioned BEFORE the first refinement. The note about perpetual reincarnation under the 'first time refined' on 128 is therefor merely a reminder of an ability, one that is confusingly misplaced, but one that precedes the elixir, not succeeds it.

One interesting question: is it possible for the un-enlightened to learn internal alchemy and prevent dying from old age? An enlightened re-incarnating soul and an alchemy-reinforced body are distinct things, and confusion is created because they are grouped together here.

Discorporation is certainly the only listed method in the game, at least it's the only certain way to achieve Enlightenment.

Glad we can agree on something It'd be cool if there were some other ways to get that, since reincarnation is cool. It's implied to exist in "Mutants in Avalon" or at least that's what the Druids think. The similarities of Arthur/Morgana to their legends is eerie.

Yes, and it states that time operates differently there as you learn those mysteries which it wouldn't mention if you didn't eventually return as a 1st stage Enlightened Immortal.

It doesn't specify what the mysteries are. I admit the 'time operates' bit is suggestive, but what it suggests isn't clear. While it could refer to EI's reincarnating powers, or to internal alchemy, it could refer to something else too.

There are no 'sub-groups' of Internal Alchemists, if you've achieved Internal Alchemy you're an Enlightened Immortal and if you're an Enlightened Immortal you must know Internal Alchemy.

There are most definitely sub-groups. There is 'unrefined' (someone who has not refined the elixir, aka most people) and then 9 steps of refining it. The process of permanently discorporating after having done the 9 steps is also referred to as a 10th step, presumably because at that point internal alchemy has gotten so complex that it changes the body on a mass spiritual level.

you just aren't taking the time to actually read over the entries.

Yes, I am, please let's avoid making it personal

There is no 'discorporate for an eternity' there is 'discorporate to become a 1st stage Enlightened Immortal' and 'discorporate for a melee attack'.

Pg 132 "ready to permanently discorporate (see Zenjoriki)" Pg 161 "at any time the character may choose to discorporate permanently!"

If not that, what is the statement on 132 referring to? Why would step 9 of EIs refer to the Discorporation ability in parenthesis when discussing permanent discorporation if the ramifications of permanent discorporation were not referred to under the power?

Also some key statements:
"the pathway of enlightenment, of illuminating the mind so that it sees the true state of the universe, is to create a spirit that can never truly die"

"a Taoist Priest might say, the characters becomes 'at one with the entire universe'"

"it is possible for Evil characters to acquire the Art of Discorporation. After all, anyone, even an Infernal, can become enlightened and 'at one' with the Tao."

This makes it pretty clear that Discorporating makes you briefly one with the universe, that you become at one with it. You see it's true state, and your spirit becomes undying. It makes no specification that you need to discorporate a certain number of times, or for an extended duration. Merely that you must see the universe's true state. The discorporate power mentions, in reference to acquiring the power, that Infernals can become enlightened ("at one").

This phrasing seems to suggest that "at one" and "enlightened" are the same things. Or at least strongly linked. If becoming "at one" was merely a first step in becoming "enlightened", why would it be mentioned AFTER it? Shouldn't it have said "at one with the Tao and eventually enlightened"?

Permanently simply means 'oh wow these secrets I've glimpsed I want to stay and learn them all', just as you can decide to permanently move to China from England but 20 years later go back to visit.

Permanent sure is an odd way to say 'coupla decades'.

Since it states you're out of the game permanently due to the time it takes for you to learn these secrets and ascend to another level of existence as an Enlightened Immortal

No, it states "becomes one of the Immortals and ascends to another aspect of existence"

I'll relent that the statement implies that regular discorporation is probably linked to further refinements of the elixir, but I believe the 'other aspect' thing refers to the 'step 10' guys who have left earth behind, not the step 0-9 guys who are sticking around living lives.

Internal Alchemy is the salient aspect of an Enlightened Immortal so you must gain Internal Alchemy if you choose to discorporate and become an Immortal.

Well we know for sure you do not need IA to discorporate... and it says you can discorporate permanently at any time under the power, no notes about requiring IA to do it.

So no, there's no indication that you must gain IA to choose to discorporate permanently to become an immortal. Nor that discorporation is what teaches IA abilities.

if you want to create such a thread in the Mystic China forum feel free to do so but I think it's all played out. You've got your position that I disagree completely with how you're spinning the text and that's not going to change.

It's fair to assess that we each view the other as interpreting the text wrong, but I don't think we should be labelling each other as 'spinning' it. That implies an intentional obfuscation, and is somewhat rude. I think we're reading different implications from badly phrased and arranged rules. No offense to Erick, love his setting.

[Nightmask]

Internal Alchemy is the salient aspect of an Enlightened Immortal so you must gain Internal Alchemy if you choose to discorporate and become an Immortal.

Well we know for sure you do not need IA to discorporate... and it says you can discorporate permanently at any time under the power, no notes about requiring IA to do it.

So no, there's no indication that you must gain IA to choose to discorporate permanently to become an immortal. Nor that discorporation is what teaches IA abilities.

The only part I'll waste time responding to. Internal alchemy and being an Enlightened Immortal are intertwined, you can't have one without the other. If you become an Enlightened Immortal you have to gain Internal Alchemy because it's the power you acquire when becoming an Enlightened Immortal, so if you Discorporate you're on the path to becoming an Enlightened Immortal therefor you gain Internal Alchemy/the Elixir of Immortality as a consequence because that is what enlightenment provides.

[Tor]

The intertwinement may merely be that EIs tend to learn IA, not that only EIs can learn IA, or that EIs automatically learn IA. While coupled in a section these are never explicitly linked to the point of 'one can't exist without the other'.

[Nightmask]

The intertwinement may merely be that EIs tend to learn IA, not that only EIs can learn IA, or that EIs automatically learn IA. While coupled in a section these are never explicitly linked to the point of 'one can't exist without the other'.

No, it's quite clear that Internal Alchemy is an essential aspect of becoming an Enlightened Immortal, you can't have one without the other. Which is why every stage of being an enlightened immortal refers to what level of refinement you've reached in Internal Alchemy. Obviously then Internal Alchemy is at the root of Enlightened Immortality and there cannot be Enlightened Immortals that do not have it because you must have it to be one.

[Tor]

That's not clear at all, it goes out of it's way to distinguish that the soul becomes immortal BEFORE the study of internal alchemy. The wording's explicit that they're distinct and supplementary processes.

"having a spirit that never dies is not enough"
"the goal is for the body to also live forever"
"this desire for corporeal perfection has led the Enlightened Immortals to study the secrets of Internal Alchemy"

This makes it clear, the ones studying IA have ALREADY become EIs.

IA is not the root of EI, but it is the inevitably direction of it, because it is the most wholesome and complimentary skillset to develope to enhance an ever-reincarnating life cycle.

[Nightmask]

That's not clear at all, it goes out of it's way to distinguish that the soul becomes immortal BEFORE the study of internal alchemy. The wording's explicit that they're distinct and supplementary processes.

"having a spirit that never dies is not enough"
"the goal is for the body to also live forever"
"this desire for corporeal perfection has led the Enlightened Immortals to study the secrets of Internal Alchemy"

This makes it clear, the ones studying IA have ALREADY become EIs.

IA is not the root of EI, but it is the inevitably direction of it, because it is the most wholesome and complimentary skillset to develope to enhance an ever-reincarnating life cycle.

Tor, you are making an underlying assumption that's not actually part and parcel of what you're quoting, that being first they develop reincarnation and then an immortal body. That's not what it says. None of what you quote even remotely says what you insist it says.

"having a spirit that never dies is not enough"=Does not mean you have reincarnation, it's only a statement that quite understandably it's not enough to have an eternal spirit you want an eternal body as well.

"the goal is for the body to also live forever"=Again, does not mean you've got an immortal reincarnating spirit, only a statement of a desire, to have a body that along with the spirit is immortal.

"this desire for corporeal perfection has led the Enlightened Immortals to study the secrets of Internal Alchemy"=Does not mean Internal Alchemy comes after enlightened immortality and an immortal spirit; note that there are 9 levels of Internal Alchemy, with the 10th being permanently giving up a physical form. Each level of refinement spends its time exploring that level of refinement and trying to improve on it to reach the next stage since each stage is a higher level of corporeal perfection.

To achieve status as an Enlightened Immortal one must achieve the first refinement of Internal Alchemy, at that point one has become enlightened enough to have spiritual and physical immortality, able to live forever and if somehow slain will reincarnate elsewhere.

[Tor]

Saying an undying spirit isn't enough implies you can just get an undying spirit on its own. You'll find that the description of IA only describes a cessation of the body's dying from old age and aging stopping altogether at some point (progressively from older to younger except for the final stage where it gets weird).

Nowhere does it mention that it is internal alchemy that creates a soul that can never die. The only reference to how the undying/reincarnating soul is created is 'seeing the true state of the universe' or whatev, which is what Discorporate does. Internal Alchemy creates magic juice that soups up your body and is an accessory, not a prerequisite.

While I half agree, that the first refinement of IA is what creates physical immortality (not dying from old age) I don't concur with the other half about reincarnation. Alchemy's a skill done with weird internal chemicals by messing around with your organs (comparisons could be made to a couple of those new martial arts techniques that let you move them around or last longer without food) whereas an enlightened mind isn't in any way implied to have alchemic prerequisites. It's clearly Zenjoriki-induced.