Hades, Dyval and the Minion War

[Dunia]

I have never ever put any of the Dimensional books into my campaigns, maybe this summer when I restart playing PB games, I will.

I am a bit interested in this Minion War series. If anyone without breaking any rules of PB, please help me understand the basics of this war and what makes it so special, I would be happy to get an introduction and/or a teaser which will make it interesting for me to put my time and money in this aspect of Rifts.

What is this war really about?

Why is the devils and demons so full of hate towards each other?

How did the war start (this time)?

How have you been incorporating it into your game(s)?

Is it worth, in your eyes, to build a campaign around this?

[cornholioprime]

What is this war really about?

Essentially...Demons and Deevils are the literal incarnation of EVERYTHING that bad people do, usually taken to deliberately murderous extremes...and they were created to be this way from their very start.

This includes being envious, murderously envious, of people who have something that they do not.
Deevils and Demons, unfortunately, have a separate set of powers and abilities, so over the eons, they came to hate each other on sight (actually, a good thing for the Palladium Megaverse, too).

Why is the devils and demons so full of hate towards each other?

Because their essentially endless list of hatreds, also includes bigotry towards The Other -again, taken to murderous extremes.

How did the war start (this time)?

The War never "finished." The two "species" have been at a megaversal-sized stalemate since time immemorial.
Somebody high up in the hierarchies of the two infernal types saw what he or she was the military opportunity of a lifetime (keep in mind that in the "lifetimes" of the beings talked about here, a few tens of thousands of years is like Thursday to us), and decided to act militarily to take advantage of it.

How have you been incorporating it into your game(s)?

Don't have a game.
Arizona isn't exactly the gaming capitol of the world...and even if it was, I'm far too busy with personal life.

Is it worth, in your eyes, to build a campaign around this?

Player Characters hired by somebody mysterious and unseen to them, who prefers to manipulate them into service and then find some way at the end of their usefulness to either defame or (mentally or physically) torture them or even turn them to the service of the ultimate evil they've been unwittingly serving all along??


Sounds like one hell of an epic campaign to me!! Especially if you as the GM can play your NPCs like "real" Deevils or Demons and make your Players essentially advance the cause of Evil....by having them fight Evil!

(Or you could do something more black-and-white with your Players like go along with the whole "unambiguous saving of the Megaverse" premise as is set up in Dimensional Outbreak and have them be unvarnished heroes at the end of the day, that works too.)

[Nekira Sudacne]

I have never ever put any of the Dimensional books into my campaigns, maybe this summer when I restart playing PB games, I will.

I am a bit interested in this Minion War series. If anyone without breaking any rules of PB, please help me understand the basics of this war and what makes it so special, I would be happy to get an introduction and/or a teaser which will make it interesting for me to put my time and money in this aspect of Rifts.

What is this war really about?

Really just an ancient war that's spilling out into new battlefeilds. As cornholio said, they've been fighting off and on for eons. like most long wars it has low spells, high spells, and sometimes reaches a feaver pitch that shakes the surrounding areas. this is one of those times.

Why is the devils and demons so full of hate towards each other?

cuz they're evil. No, really, that's pretty much all the explination we get.

How did the war start (this time)?

It didn't stop, so much as both sides thought they had an edge in some areas and went on the offensive at the same time.

How have you been incorporating it into your game(s)?

I havn't.

Is it worth, in your eyes, to build a campaign around this?

In my eyes? No. It's overused and been done better before. If you want to bring it into your game all your really doing is putting the local plots on hold while demons attack, and then having to get back to normal after. the way it's currently done the minion war is nothing but an annoying interlude before you get back to the real plots.

[Tor]

We lack a lot of the history behind things. I'm more interested in knowing what Sahtalus and Modeus think of one another. As well as elaboration on just how many Mephistos and Modeus and Mictlas are out there.

[Zamion138]

it ties in nicely with LoD1 and 2 also.
never ran it in our games, most of the time were to weak to be of much help or hinderence.
I think they are a great read, and though I dont see how hades can possible win, or even be holding its own they are still interesting.

[The Dark Elf]

The first minion war book is the land of the damned 1. Both sides fighting over shifting "control" of the Great Rift. However, as people mention the war isnt a turf war it's an ongoing rivalry.

Both sides are the epitome of evil. I liken them to rival businesses vying for the same market share/customer base. Each "win" or successful evil deed not only boosts the individual demon/deevil but emboldens the "race" as a whole. Their competitor strategy just involves killing as many of the other as possible.

[MaxxSterling]

Even if you don't include this in your campaign, if it is a Space based campaign with Phase World, the Dimensional Outbreak book, is still worth the money, it has maps of Phase World and good information. Heroes of the Megaverse... not so much.

[Witchcraft]

I'm currently GMing a Minion War campaign and I've gotten incredible feedback from the players. Granted, I've taken a whole ton of liberties with the "actual" material (read: canon) and catered it to my players' preferences. Thus far they haven't gotten to Phase World to experience the content in Dimensional Outbreak but it wouldn't surprise me if they get there in 2015.

[Talavar]

I like the Minion War as background. Demons & devils (I refuse to call them deevils - it's the stupidest thing in the world) make strong potential adversaries for characters, but prior to this, there was little motivation to either side. A demon or devil might pop up as a shifter's minion, or random rift, but the Minion war has given them a strong motivation to be out in the various worlds, scheming and fighting and trying to gain advantage. However the meta-plot itself works out, I'll probably ignore it, and leave the Minion War simmering in perpetuity, waiting for players to interact with it at the margins.

I remain hopeful that the Rifts Minion War tie-in, Megaverse in Flames, will disrupt the official setting a little. With the NGR all but victorious over the Gargoyles in Europe, and the CS stronger than ever (somehow) after a lengthy, costly war with Tolkeen (and a smaller one with Free Quebec), they need a force to stir things up and knock both down a peg. Organized armies of demons or devils could be just the thing for that.

[Tor]

The dark secret behind the Minion War:

Modeus and Sahtalus are buddies having a laugh, using it as an excuse to hopefully kill off their various traitorous underlings vying for power.

[Cybermancer]

I found both Hades and Dyval to be very useful source books in their own right, even without anything to do with the Minion War. If you're planning to actually do anything with the Minion Wars, then they are definite must haves.

Dimensional Outbreak wasn't as good in my opinion. It's okay but it also has some issues.

While the book for Heroes Unlimited was campy and loaded with cliches, I actually liked it. I think I liked it because it embraced the campiness and cliches. But then I'm also a fan of the old Batman TV series with Adam West.

I can't say I'm really looking forward to Megaverse in Flames though. I might not even buy it.

As to the OP's specific questions:

The war is about evil vs. evil. Demons vs. Devils. It's been ongoing for as long as anyone knows and this is just the latest escalation in the violence.

They hate each other because they do. They have always hated each other and it's long past the point of the why even mattering anymore.

I forget exactly how the most recent violence started but I think it was because Hades invaded Dyval.

I've used the Minion War as elements in my game in both Heroes Unlimited and Beyond the Supernatural. In neither case has it been the main focus however.

I might make the Minion Wars a focus for a campaign but I doubt it. If I were to do it, it would be a very high powered game with lots of dimension hopping. It would probably start in a contemporary setting and move on to the M.D.C. worlds. But honestly, it really seems to work best as a backdrop to other stories with players getting involved only occasionally. Other people's milage is bound to vary.

[Dunia]

Thank you guys.
I will have to wait for the Megaverse in Flames, as I do not care for the Dimension Books about Space and other dimensions and then i will probably buy Hades & Dyvall as well.

I will not be watching this thread any longer, but you keep on chatting if you like to.

[Zamion138]

This time the war started to heat up due to hades releasing tons of worms into dyval via the great rift in PF, it tore the crap out of the top level of dyval. But i happened to early and the demons of hades were not there to capatalize on the momentum........feel free to correct me if im wrong though

[say652]

unneeded a recommend a corebook and an imagination. to much structure kills the creative mind. if i want everything written out and preplanned, i play videogames.

[Alrik Vas]

Long ago i used to toy with the idea of a campaign like this. Then palladium goes at makes it. I always thought demons were good villains for Rifts, especially since they play people against each other so you can literally fight anyone. Or working with literally anyone when/if the truth comes out.

[flatline]

unneeded a recommend a corebook and an imagination. to much structure kills the creative mind. if i want everything written out and preplanned, i play videogames.

I agree with this. My preference is for a core book for a particular setting with 2, maybe 3 additional books to fill in the gaps.

--flatline

[Icefalcon]

unneeded a recommend a corebook and an imagination. to much structure kills the creative mind. if i want everything written out and preplanned, i play videogames.

I agree with this. My preference is for a core book for a particular setting with 2, maybe 3 additional books to fill in the gaps.

--flatline

Not me. I am a completionist. I need to have all of the books for whatever system I am running. It does not denote a lack of imagination, it is more that it gives me more options. My games have not suffered from lack of imagination because of it. Besides, if I want to ignore whole books in my games, I do so.

[flatline]

unneeded a recommend a corebook and an imagination. to much structure kills the creative mind. if i want everything written out and preplanned, i play videogames.

I agree with this. My preference is for a core book for a particular setting with 2, maybe 3 additional books to fill in the gaps.

--flatline

Not me. I am a completionist. I need to have all of the books for whatever system I am running. It does not denote a lack of imagination, it is more that it gives me more options. My games have not suffered from lack of imagination because of it. Besides, if I want to ignore whole books in my games, I do so.

Oh, I'm not saying we need lots of books because we lack the imagination. I'm just saying that once we've got the bulk of the setting defined, I'd prefer Kevin start on giving us a new one. I'd much rather have a dozen new settings to explore rather than 30+ books that detail different parts of the same setting.

Now with Rifts, each continent is really its own setting, so we've gotten half a dozen good mostly unique settings out of the Rifts experiment, but every book that just adds more information to NA, for instance, just adds new gear, more OCCs, and, most terrible of all, advances the time line. DO NOT WANT.

--flatline

[Icefalcon]

Oh, I'm not saying we need lots of books because we lack the imagination. I'm just saying that once we've got the bulk of the setting defined, I'd prefer Kevin start on giving us a new one. I'd much rather have a dozen new settings to explore rather than 30+ books that detail different parts of the same setting.

Now with Rifts, each continent is really its own setting, so we've gotten half a dozen good mostly unique settings out of the Rifts experiment, but every book that just adds more information to NA, for instance, just adds new gear, more OCCs, and, most terrible of all, advances the time line. DO NOT WANT.

--flatline

I can understand that. I feel the same about OCC's, we don't need any more. Gear, I think we could use more mundane items that might make a setting unique as you are passing through the market but not gobs more of robots, PA's or weapons (although some more ground, civilian vehicles would be nice). As for the timeline, I am not disappointed that it moves forward. I kind of like that.

[Zamion138]

Yeah a giant "book of the rifts mundane" would be cool.
Food stuffs, clothes fashions, music, cleaning products hunting gear. Stuff, culture, popular shows that dont yave juicers. Lingo and slang, common stats for mundane drugs and prices.
An updated cost for metals and jewels. Just stuff.

[Icefalcon]

Yeah a giant "book of the rifts mundane" would be cool.
Food stuffs, clothes fashions, music, cleaning products hunting gear. Stuff, culture, popular shows that dont yave juicers. Lingo and slang, common stats for mundane drugs and prices.
An updated cost for metals and jewels. Just stuff.

Agreed. "Just stuff" adds flavor to a setting, in my opinion. It also helps to define a society.

[flatline]

Yeah a giant "book of the rifts mundane" would be cool.
Food stuffs, clothes fashions, music, cleaning products hunting gear. Stuff, culture, popular shows that dont yave juicers. Lingo and slang, common stats for mundane drugs and prices.
An updated cost for metals and jewels. Just stuff.

This!

THIS!

T.O.T.A.L.L.Y. T.H.I.S.!!!

No new weapons. No new armor.

What kinds of stores do regular folk shop at in the CS? In Lazlo? In Russia?

If a regular person wants to build a house, what kinds of building materials does he use in the New West? In Canada? Are there construction companies to help or does he rent a robotic fabrication unit or does he fell logs himself?

Do people listen to the radio? What kinds of stations are there?

What kinds of jobs do people have in different parts of the world? What kinds of cybernetic enhancements exist to help with civilian life? Do CPAs have cybernetic calculators?

How do people travel between towns in the same region? How do non-adventurers travel to and from neighboring regions? What kinds of vacations do people take (if any) and where?

I want a book that fleshes out the civilian side of life on Rifts Earth.

--flatline

[Alrik Vas]

No new weapons. No new armor.

I want a book that fleshes out the civilian side of life on Rifts Earth.

--flatline

I think it's a great concept, if you really want to do it.

Though from Rifts, i've always got the idea that the answer to most of your questions is, "They don't."

Common folk don't travel that much, there isn't a lot of migration or visiting unless population centers are close to one another and don't have any extreme geographical difficulties between them.

Shopping? There would be lots of scavenger stores where people pawn things off that they found or fought/killed for, and not just guns, but appliances, old manuals, machine parts, jewelry, photographs...anything. Think about the town from The Book of Eli. Rifts is a lot like that throughout North America.

For common folks, making a house would be applying enginuity to an existing structure.

Inside the CS fortresses it's very different however. It's clean, it's protected, there is actual business, television and radio. That's one of the big lures of their society. They've got the creature comforts, other people have d-bees that think humans are a tasty snack.

The timeline has moved, sure, but Rifts is still incredibly wild and dangerous. Common folks are at the mercy of the environment and their own lack of education. No one is out there babying them unless they're a privilaged CS citizen.

However, I think that some independent areas, such as Lazlo, Psyskape etc would have their own public works, farming and all that. It's likely up to us to flesh things out, which i've never had a problem with.

[cornholioprime]

Yeah a giant "book of the rifts mundane" would be cool.
Food stuffs, clothes fashions, music, cleaning products hunting gear. Stuff, culture, popular shows that dont yave juicers. Lingo and slang, common stats for mundane drugs and prices.
An updated cost for metals and jewels. Just stuff.

This!

THIS!

T.O.T.A.L.L.Y. T.H.I.S.!!!

No new weapons. No new armor.

What kinds of stores do regular folk shop at in the CS? In Lazlo? In Russia?

If a regular person wants to build a house, what kinds of building materials does he use in the New West? In Canada? Are there construction companies to help or does he rent a robotic fabrication unit or does he fell logs himself?

Do people listen to the radio? What kinds of stations are there?

What kinds of jobs do people have in different parts of the world? What kinds of cybernetic enhancements exist to help with civilian life? Do CPAs have cybernetic calculators?

How do people travel between towns in the same region? How do non-adventurers travel to and from neighboring regions? What kinds of vacations do people take (if any) and where?

I want a book that fleshes out the civilian side of life on Rifts Earth.

--flatline

By the gods, that actually sounds like it would make for one hell of a fun book!

[Tor]

Demons and Deevils are the literal incarnation of EVERYTHING that bad people do, usually taken to deliberately murderous extremes...and they were created to be this way from their very start.

I don't think I agree, it's not as if all of them are Diabolic or anything. Heck, some of them are falling in love, some are merely anarchist. I bet humanity can surpass them. Now Living Nightmares on the other hand...

[cornholioprime]

Demons and Deevils are the literal incarnation of EVERYTHING that bad people do, usually taken to deliberately murderous extremes...and they were created to be this way from their very start.

I don't think I agree, it's not as if all of them are Diabolic or anything. Heck, some of them are falling in love, some are merely anarchist. I bet humanity can surpass them. Now Living Nightmares on the other hand...

"Created to be that way from the very start" doesn't mean that 100% of each and every infernal there ever is or was, cannot be something other than miscreant or diabolic. Rather, it refers to the "species" as a whole and their original intended purpose.

Nor does it mean that eternal-lifespan creatures such as Demons and Deevils are forever prevented from individually changing their alignments over vast periods of time.

Hence the deliberate use of the word "usually" in the previous post.

[warrenthewanderer]

Why is the devils and demons so full of hate towards each other?

cuz they're evil. No, really, that's pretty much all the explination we get.

I read it somewhere that it's cause deevils envy humans ( and thus they hate us) where as demons look down on us as inferior (and thus hate us on principle). The demons look down on deevils became the deevils envy us this causes the hatred between them.

[Alrik Vas]

Why is the devils and demons so full of hate towards each other?

cuz they're evil. No, really, that's pretty much all the explination we get.

I read it somewhere that it's cause deevils envy humans ( and thus they hate us) where as demons look down on us as inferior (and thus hate us on principle). The demons look down on deevils became the deevils envy us this causes the hatred between them.

That's the kind of circle of hate that makes me all warm and fuzzy.

[say652]

i always thought demons and deevils were competitors. rivalry breeds hatred.

[cornholioprime]

i always thought demons and deevils were competitors. rivalry breeds hatred.

They're worse; it is the hallmark of Palladium Infernals that they take almost everything to murderous extremes.

The Splugorth and the Naruni, they are "competitors."

But the Demons and Deevils, they are engaged in a "blood feud."

And they wouldn't have it any other way -they'd probably band together and kill you (if you're lucky) for your impudence if you simply pointed out that if they'd only join forces, they'd be unstoppable and accomplish all their other megaversal goals a whole lot faster.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Demons and Deevils are the literal incarnation of EVERYTHING that bad people do, usually taken to deliberately murderous extremes...and they were created to be this way from their very start.

I don't think I agree, it's not as if all of them are Diabolic or anything. Heck, some of them are falling in love, some are merely anarchist. I bet humanity can surpass them. Now Living Nightmares on the other hand...

"Created to be that way from the very start" doesn't mean that 100% of each and every infernal there ever is or was, cannot be something other than miscreant or diabolic. Rather, it refers to the "species" as a whole and their original intended purpose.

Nor does it mean that eternal-lifespan creatures such as Demons and Deevils are forever prevented from individually changing their alignments over vast periods of time.

Hence the deliberate use of the word "usually" in the previous post.

quite correct, actually the heroic hellion class in Armageddon Unlimited has a whole slew of reasons why a demon or deevil turns their back on evil and becomes a hero, offically. everything from experiments to a hero giving a good example to the demon/deevil litterally just ups and quits being bad one day. Couple that with the reformed demon class in mystic china, and it's pretty clear that as far as palladium is concerned, any demon can change their ways.

which is good. if demons had no freewill in the matter, then they're not really evil, just supernatural murderbots. the fact that they CAN choose to change gives the others evil moral highlight. whatever their natural inclinations it's still their choice to do evil, and their evil brethren have no excuse.

[Alrik Vas]

which is good. if demons had no freewill in the matter, then they're not really evil, just supernatural murderbots.

You mean like player characters? @.@

[Nekira Sudacne]

which is good. if demons had no freewill in the matter, then they're not really evil, just supernatural murderbots.

You mean like player characters? @.@

There is such a thing as non-supernatural player characters

[SolCannibal]

Of late i'm working up some ideas for a Minion War game with the PCs as sub-, lesser or greater demons in an invasion force to Rifts Earth - mostly satire and black comedy, something in the spirit of M.A.S.H., Blackadder Goes Forth and Kelly's Heroes, a futile war of monsters that care little for their cause them the next to plunder, mayhem and avoid doing anything like actual work.

I tend to imagine the Hades x Dyval relationship, in fact the rivalries between most dark/infernal powers in the Megaverse, somewhat like the Great Game, the competition for strategic supremacy and colonial possessions that marked european diplomacy for a good chunk of the 19th and early 20th centuries.

[Zamion138]

Of late i'm working up some ideas for a Minion War game with the PCs as sub-, lesser or greater demons in an invasion force to Rifts Earth - mostly satire and black comedy, something in the spirit of M.A.S.H., Blackadder Goes Forth and Kelly's Heroes, a futile war of monsters that care little for their cause them the next to plunder, mayhem and avoid doing anything like actual work.

I tend to imagine the Hades x Dyval relationship, in fact the rivalries between most dark/infernal powers in the Megaverse, somewhat like the Great Game, the competition for strategic supremacy and colonial possessions that marked european diplomacy for a good chunk of the 19th and early 20th centuries.

I like it!

I will say we tried doing this as a group way way back pre hades/devyl and it failed, due mostly to diminsonal tellepotion natrual ability in 40% of the pc's. And not in the others.....if you allow dport chars id restrict it some how like a curse or make sure everyone has it.

Also some one drasticly more powerfull telling them what to do or issuing missions.

[SolCannibal]

Of late i'm working up some ideas for a Minion War game with the PCs as sub-, lesser or greater demons in an invasion force to Rifts Earth - mostly satire and black comedy, something in the spirit of M.A.S.H., Blackadder Goes Forth and Kelly's Heroes, a futile war of monsters that care little for their cause them the next to plunder, mayhem and avoid doing anything like actual work.

I tend to imagine the Hades x Dyval relationship, in fact the rivalries between most dark/infernal powers in the Megaverse, somewhat like the Great Game, the competition for strategic supremacy and colonial possessions that marked european diplomacy for a good chunk of the 19th and early 20th centuries.

I like it!

I will say we tried doing this as a group way way back pre hades/devyl and it failed, due mostly to diminsonal tellepotion natrual ability in 40% of the pc's. And not in the others.....if you allow dport chars id restrict it some how like a curse or make sure everyone has it.

Also some one drasticly more powerfull telling them what to do or issuing missions.

Well, i tried to make things simpler for me by using just three packages for sub-demon, lesser demon and greater demon, with the PCs distributing the dices between stats according to the role of that (already existing or homebrewed) monster race. Also, the PCs playing sub-demons or lesser demons start more "worldly" and experienced than greaters, as they can't really on just brute power to prevail, among other little tweaks here and there.