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So I have been modding the game for a long time. Now though I am wondering what the line is where I should stop calling it palladium? I mean I use the skill but changed it to a point system and made it 3 tiered. I've renamed the stats, started the bonuses earlier, and added some new ones. I've tweaked all the powers psionics and spells (editing deleting adding).

So at what point does it cease to be palladium? When can I say hey lets play HU, and people come over and say hey huh??? is this?
Conversely hey lets play a new game. Waitaminute this is palladium isn't it???
or am I lost in the limbo in between

I guess the answer is "When you could publish your houserules as a seperate system and it'd stand up in court as being unrelated"

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I guess the answer is "When you could publish your houserules as a seperate system and it'd stand up in court as being unrelated"

That's kinda close to what I was going to say...

You're at the in-between right now... your own full rule-set, but using their setting.

ok when is a rule set no longer the same? I mean Palladium was based off of D&D but there is very little resemblance. There is more in common with 3ed than 1st or 2nd, or do I have to look into copyright law. Do I have to change the skills from % to something like d20? The real question I guess is would you be upset if I said Palladium and presented This?

I wonder if anyone else has gone this far or considered this?

Well, really, over the years, I think the vast majority of us have house ruled stuff. No matter what game system. Seriously, I bet if you took an honest survey of those who run games (not the players, I'm talking the guys who say "This is my table, here are the rules we play with"), 90% or more are going to say that they regularly use at least one house rule.

The real question though, becomes, what part is the game we play? Is it the rules, or is it the setting? For a while, I ran a game that used the 3.5 rules, but was in the PF setting. And at one point, I used the PF rules to run a game in the Dragonlance setting... where is the line?

I think, when gathering a new group, the best way to go about it is "ok, after several years, these are the house rules I've come up with... what do you guys think?" and go from there. Sometimes, it's easiest to go with RAW, then adjust. That way, you all have the same basic start point...

I avoid house rules at all costs. However, with a system so broken and contradictory unto itself, It is flat out impossible to play a palladium based game without having to at least fill in some blanks... I wouldn't call them house rules exactly, but something has to fill in the gaps that exist.

As far as to answer the initial question, I'd say as soon as the core rule book is no longer needed to run the game, you are playing a different system, however, if you are using the same setting, then it is still Palladium/Rifts/Whatever. I have played games where folks have inserted TORG, GURPS or even D20 versions of Rifts and Shadowrun and no one ever seemed upset as long as expectations were set at the start. If you were going to run at a convention or something though, I would state it as a Palladium setting based RPG.

MaxxSterling wrote:I avoid house rules at all costs. However, with a system so broken and contradictory unto itself, It is flat out impossible to play a palladium based game without having to at least fill in some blanks... I wouldn't call them house rules exactly, but something has to fill in the gaps that exist.

There are really only two classifications, house rules and canon rules. Filling in the gaps with a rule you made is the very definition of house rules. The rule you come up with to fill the gap is not the same as the one I come up with. House rule.

By copyright law, rules of a game cannot be copyrighted.

1st edition Palladium Fantasy was clearly related to 1st edition AD&D, so far as I could run D&D adventures with mental conversions and the games never slowed down.

If you're just playing with a group or getting a group together and not planning on publishing, You're at the point of 'lets play the Rifts (or whatever) setting using my own rules/ruleset. I hope you then give each player a copy of your rules, so they know what's going on.

Copyright law copy/pasted from the US Copyright government site:

Copyright does not protect the idea for a game, its name or title, or the method or methods for playing it. Nor does copyright protect any idea, system, method, device, or trademark material involved in developing, merchandising, or playing a game. Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles. Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form.

Material prepared in connection with a game may be subject to copyright if it contains a sufficient amount of literary or pictorial expression. For example, the text matter describing the rules of the game or the pictorial matter appearing on the gameboard or container may be registrable.

If your game includes any written element, such as instructions or directions, the Copyright Office recommends that you apply to register it as a literary work. Doing so will allow you to register all copyrightable parts of the game, including any pictorial elements. When the copyrightable elements of the game consist predominantly of pictorial matter, you should apply to register it as a work of the visual arts.

wow that's enlightening, so I could do a d20 system rule set, publish it, but as long as I don't copy the way they describe the system, use the name or flavor text, I'm ok (ignoring the open licensing)??

according to what ZorValachan posted, that would appear to be the case. I would, however, strongly recommend you consult with a lawyer before doing so. while that appears to be what the act says. "case law" concerning how the courts have actually interpreted it, may and likely will throw up a few problems that could trip you up and land you into legal trouble.

I am not considering publishing, it was more of the practice with groups and about how far is too far and still be palladium and advertising for players

To be safe, just say "It's a palladium-inspired setting with a largely homebrew system"

when you can burn all your Palladium books and continue playing.

the difference is some people like palladium and I don't want to pull the rug out from under them with what i have

well 1) its hard to yell at someone named snuzzles, so that's not going to happen, 2) I was just being reflective, looking at my binder and the question occurred to me

Nekira Sudacne wrote:according to what ZorValachan posted, that would appear to be the case. I would, however, strongly recommend you consult with a lawyer before doing so. while that appears to be what the act says. "case law" concerning how the courts have actually interpreted it, may and likely will throw up a few problems that could trip you up and land you into legal trouble.

Another big 'downside' is that a bigger company with resources can take you to court and drain your finances, bankrupting you with lawyer/court fees before you 'win'. Also Trademark and other IP laws can be used if you don't strip out those links as well.