Explain the value of Power Punch

[glitterboy2098]

first, power punch can be more cinematic than just two regular punches.

second, sometimes being able to do double the damage in one hit can be beneficial.. if the target has a damage reduction for example two single punches might not do much on their own, but one power punch might land lasting effect.

third, with things like augmented strength, a power punch can sometimes inflict way more than just double damage. (with augmented PS for example, attributes over, IIRC, PS of 25 can inflict MD on a power punch in MD settings.. and get a similar boost in sdc settings.)

[say652]

i as a player learned the value of a power punch when my character with a high supernatural ps critical hit on said attack dealing like 140 megadamage in one hit.

[flatline]

I can't think of any type of punch that can't be thrown at full power in less than a second.

The Power Punch is an example of a rule that must have seemed like a good idea at the time, but fails the smell test.

--flatline

[Zamion138]

Its like foing a death blow your betting your going to roll high to at least good enough to hit once instead of twice. Its not perfect but it does its job

[Killer Cyborg]

I can't think of any type of punch that can't be thrown at full power in less than a second.

The Power Punch is an example of a rule that must have seemed like a good idea at the time, but fails the smell test.

--flatline

Agreed.

[Killer Cyborg]

Something I've never really understood in Palladium combat rules is the Power Punch. Unless I am wrong, this is basically how a power punch works:

Character winds up (first melee strike)
Character swings on his next action (second melee strike)
If attack hits, it does double damage

But what is the benefit? Why not just spend your two melee attacks swinging twice? If you hit both times you will do the same damage as if you hit with your power punch and have used the same number of actions. Is the advantage that you are only making one strike roll? Therefore less chances to miss? But that doesn't make sense because you also have less chances to hit. Plus, there are several other disadvantages to the Power Punch, such as if the target moves while the character is "winding up", then the first melee strike used to "wind up" is wasted.

Am I missing something?

AS A RULE, there IS no benefit.
Just punch twice.

The exception is times when you can ambush the enemy, so you wind up before init is even rolled.
It helps to be completely invisible.

OR in conjunction with another attack that disable the enemy.
You wind up.
Your friend paralyzes the enemy.
You land your punch.
You've just saved 1 opportunity for the enemy to dodge.

Needless to say, this virtually never actually happens.

[The Beast]

Explain the value of Power Punch

G = 6.67 x 10-8 cm-3 gm-1 sec-2

[Alrik Vas]

Wait...does it actually state you take time to wind up? We always had the next action taken up, rather than the previous.

[Galroth]

As an example of the Augmented Strength stuff glitterboy2098 was talking about, my Amphib Shifter has a regular punch that does 3D6 SD, his power punch does 1D4 MD or 1D4X100 SD. That's a significant improvement over punching twice, even if you rolled max damage with the two regular strikes and minimum with the power attack, it would still do more damage.

[glitterboy2098]

Wait...does it actually state you take time to wind up? We always had the next action taken up, rather than the previous.

it just says "takes 2 attacks/actions"

some people run it as a one phase build up, then hits on the next phase.
others hit on the first phase, then a one phase cooldown
and still other just mark off two attacks and have it all take place in one phase.

[Killer Cyborg]

Wait...does it actually state you take time to wind up? We always had the next action taken up, rather than the previous.

IIRC, it does state that somewhere.
Or Kevin stated it in a Q&A.

I always just had it take attacks off the tail end, though.

[Killer Cyborg]

third, with things like augmented strength, a power punch can sometimes inflict way more than just double damage. (with augmented PS for example, attributes over, IIRC, PS of 25 can inflict MD on a power punch in MD settings.. and get a similar boost in sdc settings.)

Good point.

[Eashamahel]

I've always assumed it took two attacks flat, not took one to set up and then is launched on the second attack that round, but even so, it's a great tool to have in your arsenal, and can't be understated.

In a fight there are many times where you WILL be able to land a punch, and having the ability to Power Punch means you will get more out of that one hit. Common examples are when you get a chance to hit someone from behind or surprise, or otherwise when they can't defend themselves, such as being out of their line of sight. Other great uses are when you outclass someone enough that you are confident of being able to land your hit, increasing your chances of taking someone out in one hit is great. Also, it is great to force people to react to you, forcing them to focus on you and defend themselves.

Is it a great tool to use all the time? No. If it was, you would never 'normal'-punch, it is inferior MOST of the time, but when useful, great to have.

[Grand Paladin]

I wonder if a quick fix houserule could be that if a race that has supernatural strength chooses to deliver a power punch, the player can add in and P.S. damage bonuses as MD to the attack as a way to make the use of the power punch "worth it"?

Just a thought.

[flatline]

I wonder if a quick fix houserule could be that if a race that has supernatural strength chooses to deliver a power punch, the player can add in and P.S. damage bonuses as MD to the attack as a way to make the use of the power punch "worth it"?

Just a thought.

Just get rid of the idea of a power punch entirely.

--flatline

[Glistam]

Actually Rifts does offer an optional knockdown chance based on the amount of M.D. taken, so if you're in Rifts and your G.M. is usuing that table, there could be value in a standard power punch then.

[Mercdog]

Wait...does it actually state you take time to wind up? We always had the next action taken up, rather than the previous.

it just says "takes 2 attacks/actions"

some people run it as a one phase build up, then hits on the next phase.
others hit on the first phase, then a one phase cooldown
and still other just mark off two attacks and have it all take place in one phase.

I know I go with option number 3. It's much simpler IMO to treat Attacks per Melee as a 'Pool' of available actions than to try and breakdown the exact sequence and timing for everybody's individual moves.

[flatline]

Wait...does it actually state you take time to wind up? We always had the next action taken up, rather than the previous.

it just says "takes 2 attacks/actions"

some people run it as a one phase build up, then hits on the next phase.
others hit on the first phase, then a one phase cooldown
and still other just mark off two attacks and have it all take place in one phase.

I know I go with option number 3. It's much simpler IMO to treat Attacks per Melee as a 'Pool' of available actions than to try and breakdown the exact sequence and timing for everybody's individual moves.

Easier still to do away with attacks per melee entirely.

--flatline

[eliakon]

Wait...does it actually state you take time to wind up? We always had the next action taken up, rather than the previous.

it just says "takes 2 attacks/actions"

some people run it as a one phase build up, then hits on the next phase.
others hit on the first phase, then a one phase cooldown
and still other just mark off two attacks and have it all take place in one phase.

I know I go with option number 3. It's much simpler IMO to treat Attacks per Melee as a 'Pool' of available actions than to try and breakdown the exact sequence and timing for everybody's individual moves.

Easier still to do away with attacks per melee entirely.

--flatline

*meh* some of us here play palladium, and not a home brew system vaugly based on palladium. But what ever floats your boat I guess.

[say652]

i always ruled that any power attack(punch,kick etc.) sacrificed balance for more power. one action to hit so hard it throws off your fighting stance and the other (one) action to recover your balance.

[flatline]

i always ruled that any power attack(punch,kick etc.) sacrificed balance for more power. one action to hit so hard it throws off your fighting stance and the other (one) action to recover your balance.

All attacks have an optimal distance. If you're beyond that distance for a particular attack, over extending to make the attack "work" will result in the attack being weaker than it would have been if you'd just been at the proper distance to begin with and will also leave you more vulnerable to counter attack. Over extending will, as a rule, never make the attack more powerful.

--flatline

[Goliath Strongarm]

i always ruled that any power attack(punch,kick etc.) sacrificed balance for more power. one action to hit so hard it throws off your fighting stance and the other (one) action to recover your balance.

All attacks have an optimal distance. If you're beyond that distance for a particular attack, over extending to make the attack "work" will result in the attack being weaker than it would have been if you'd just been at the proper distance to begin with and will also leave you more vulnerable to counter attack. Over extending will, as a rule, never make the attack more powerful.

--flatline

Actually, since there are about a gajillion variables on that, I'd like to see where you came up with "as a rule".

Because, if I push myself into the punch, and overextend with the follow through, I will be entirely off balance, but, I will have put a lot more into it. If I look at it from that angle, "as a rule", over extending WILL make an attack more powerful.

If, on the other hand, I overextend improperly, and don't manage to put my body behind the punch, it's not going to do me any good..

[Goliath Strongarm]

i always ruled that any power attack(punch,kick etc.) sacrificed balance for more power. one action to hit so hard it throws off your fighting stance and the other (one) action to recover your balance.

I don't have any problem with this at all...

BUT..

If it's to "recover your balance", are they more open to attack? IE, penalty to parry/dodge?

Not trying to nitpick, just curious...

[The Dark Elf]

i always ruled that any power attack(punch,kick etc.) sacrificed balance for more power. one action to hit so hard it throws off your fighting stance and the other (one) action to recover your balance.

That is how I play it. Never really thought about, that decision was the instinctive one but the build up idea makes sense also.

The reason for having it is that you have a gamble to make - more damage but less rolls then just attacking twice. You are putting all your eggs in one basket in a "make or break" action. That action could be a lifesaver or it could leave you vulnerable.

In RPG action any gamble adds that touch of excitement to the game and as an optional action those daring characters (or perhaps roleplaying a brutish one) would surely add that touch or drama with power punches.

[flatline]

i always ruled that any power attack(punch,kick etc.) sacrificed balance for more power. one action to hit so hard it throws off your fighting stance and the other (one) action to recover your balance.

All attacks have an optimal distance. If you're beyond that distance for a particular attack, over extending to make the attack "work" will result in the attack being weaker than it would have been if you'd just been at the proper distance to begin with and will also leave you more vulnerable to counter attack. Over extending will, as a rule, never make the attack more powerful.

--flatline

Actually, since there are about a gajillion variables on that, I'd like to see where you came up with "as a rule".

Because, if I push myself into the punch, and overextend with the follow through, I will be entirely off balance, but, I will have put a lot more into it. If I look at it from that angle, "as a rule", over extending WILL make an attack more powerful.

If, on the other hand, I overextend improperly, and don't manage to put my body behind the punch, it's not going to do me any good..

Get yourself a partner and a padded mitt. Pick a strike that you're comfortable with and practice with it at different distances until you find the optimal distance for that attack and the person holding the mitt has a good feel or the power involved when the technique is done right.

Then try the same technique at any distance (including the optimal distance you've discovered) and "put more into it". You may be surprised to discover that the person holding the mitt won't notice any significant improvement in the power of the technique. There are two reasons for this.
1. Once you've over extended, any additional power is coming from the momentum and weight of your body. This power is significantly less than the power you can generate via your legs pushing against the ground.
2. The power from over extending comes after the initial impulse of the technique which means the target has already been accelerated away. In other words, it comes too late to do any good.

Just remember that the distance the mitt is moved by a strike is not a good indicator of the useful power in the technique since most of the useful power is transferred in the first couple of inches.

--flatline

[42dragon]

I rarely post here, but it seems to me that most of you are correct but are discussing the OP question from different directions. Bringing in real world physics can cloud the waters in relation to an RPG but do make excellent points. I am going to try to provide an explanation that can perhaps bridge the gap here.

Like with any sport, if you are on balance and striking properly you will generate nearly the same force than if you really went all out and because of poor balance and/or a wild swing did not connect solidly. Golf for example I swing under control but still a full swing and connect solidly (good roll to strike but not critical) the ball will go 250 yards. I can really amp up my swing and typically will not connect solidly (poor roll to strike most likely caused by penalties) and the ball will go the wrong dirrection and only 220 yards. Now if I really connected solidly with that full amped up swing the ball will go a little further 270 yards (same a a normal swing critical strike), but it is rare to hit solidly when going all out and sacrificing balance and technique, and the force is not doubled by any means.

However in terms of a RPG, it is fun and often cinematic to be able to really up the damage of something. So the powerpunch is created. Now it must have some sort of drawback otherwise you would almost never throw a regular punch. The drawback Palladium decided to use is it costs an extra attack. Perhaps a penalty to strike might have been more appropriate per my example above.

But thinking of all that, each time you want to use a powerpunch it over the top for an RPG. So I have always simply thought of it similar to say652. The attack goes off right away but costs you 2 attacks, due to balance, position recovery, what ever.

Think boxing for example: lets say a jab (meaning to land) is one normal attack, a jab (feeling out your opponent / feint / not meaning to hit) is not an attack it is just part of what is going on undescribed throughout the round trying to get yourself into a better position to land a punch or defend yourself (illustrated by bonuses to strike, parry, dodge), and an uppercut (going for knockout) is the power punch. Yes, this is over simplified and other types of punches exist but these moves will help to illustrate my example.

Boxers are fast, they typically throw way more than 4-8 punches in 15 seconds, but we will say many of those are the jabs of a feeling out / feint variety. They also throw their punchs that they mean to connect with really fast. A jab is faster to connect than an uppercut, but the difference is not 2-3 seconds as if he had to wind up then land the punch on the second attack. Really the uppercut is only slightly slower (1/2 second or less) than the jab from start of the punch to connecting with the target, so it can be said that the uppercut lands in that same one attack as the jab. So why wouldn't you just throw uppercuts? Becasue if you don't knock your opponent out or daze them, you have left yourself more open to counter attack (by body position) than if you just threw a jab. So the 2nd attack is used to get yourself back into the proper fighting position / technique, is reflected in the fact that you just used 2 attacks on a punch and your opponent gets an extra shot at you to signify the open position.

This could have been ruled by Palladium to have many different ways to apply the drawback of a powerpunch. A penalty to strike could have been appropriate, a penalty to parry/dodge after a powerpunch could have been appropriate, and the taking an extra attack could be been appropriate. Now if they decided to apply more than one of these drawbacks then the powerpunch would almost never be used. So they chose to apply the costs an extra attack. I have no issues with that.

And without a hard in stone rule or example in texts how you apply that 2 attacks is ultimately up to the GM. But my groups have almost always used, the punch lands instantly but you skip next attack.

Why you would use it? For flair cinematically, or you are hoping to end the fight right now. Occasionally it is used if you have way more attacks than your opponent (and your friends) to use them up quickly so you don't have to roll so many strike attempts and just get to the next round, so your friend the spell caster can start casing again and others can get back in the action.

[say652]

swing an axe splitting wood, controlled swings from a solid base is kinda the standard correct? now picking through the pile a dreaded piece of hickory! has finally landed on your your trusty splitting stump,swing as normal, thunk! ax bounces off, swing a lil harder thunk! ax gets stuck, swing that axe as hard as you can,crack crack, wood splits but ,for putting all that power in the swing you normally have to reset your balance and stance.

[Goliath Strongarm]

swing an axe splitting wood, controlled swings from a solid base is kinda the standard correct? now picking through the pile a dreaded piece of hickory! has finally landed on your your trusty splitting stump,swing as normal, thunk! ax bounces off, swing a lil harder thunk! ax gets stuck, swing that axe as hard as you can,crack crack, wood splits but ,for putting all that power in the swing you normally have to reset your balance and stance.

Sometimes, someone finds the perfect way to explain something. I never would have thought of this analogy, but it is PERFECT.

[say652]

came to me while splitting wood yesterday and yup a dreaded piece of hickory crossed my trusty splitting stump.

[flatline]

swing an axe splitting wood, controlled swings from a solid base is kinda the standard correct? now picking through the pile a dreaded piece of hickory! has finally landed on your your trusty splitting stump,swing as normal, thunk! ax bounces off, swing a lil harder thunk! ax gets stuck, swing that axe as hard as you can,crack crack, wood splits but ,for putting all that power in the swing you normally have to reset your balance and stance.

The physics of swinging a disproportionately large mass at the end of a lever to multiply force can generate enough momentum to pull you off balance. You can't do that with a punch unless you're holding a weight of some sort in your fist. Over extending a punch requires you to push past your balance point rather than being pulled past it. As such, splitting wood with an axe is a flawed analogy for a punch.

Nice visual, though. Are you a writer?

--flatline

[say652]

lil bit and any martial artist knows elbows hit harder than punches but in the game elbows deal less damage??? and lets take a good hard punch for my example an overhand left, all kinds of power the more you twist and lean the harder it hits. or a shaolin uppercut to make it hit harder you just jump as you connect.(the real life shoryuken)

[Eashamahel]

Lot's a great punches lead to becoming off balanced afterwards, leaping lead hooks are good examples. Many old time boxing knockouts end with the winner nearly taking himself off of his feat, and this is the perfect example of the mechanics of the power punch in real life.

The opponent is defenceless, generally having been stunned, and the boxer has a single attack to make the most of this defenceless state. Leaping hook, big uppercut, occasionally right hand/overhand, even if it hits, the attacker is off balance afterwards, but if it hits, it has a great chance of ending the entire fight.

Power punches SHOULD NOT BE better than regular attacks. If they were, there would be no reason to throw regular punches. They should be highly situational, irregular attacks.

[hollowecho]

I have always thought of it like a two handed over hand swing or a haymaker like superman does to giant robots to knock them down...

[say652]

it is agreed power punches are good.

[flatline]

it is agreed power punches are good.

I disagree with that statement.

--flatline

[Giant2005]

Something I've never really understood in Palladium combat rules is the Power Punch. Unless I am wrong, this is basically how a power punch works:

Character winds up (first melee strike)
Character swings on his next action (second melee strike)
If attack hits, it does double damage

But what is the benefit? Why not just spend your two melee attacks swinging twice? If you hit both times you will do the same damage as if you hit with your power punch and have used the same number of actions. Is the advantage that you are only making one strike roll? Therefore less chances to miss? But that doesn't make sense because you also have less chances to hit. Plus, there are several other disadvantages to the Power Punch, such as if the target moves while the character is "winding up", then the first melee strike used to "wind up" is wasted.

Am I missing something?

A bit of a necro here but I found a tiny tidbit that needs mentioned as it is a bit of a clarification that most people don't know about (or at least haven't mentioned in this thread or others like it).
Rifts SB1r says this in the description of the Thornhead Demon: "Tentacle Strike (blunt attack): 4D6 S.D.C. (1D4 M.D. on a power punch but counts as two attacks so the tentacle can't strike the next melee round) regardless of Supernatural P.S."
That Demon only has one action per melee for each of its tentacles so in the case of it at least, the damage is applied immediately and the action is lost later. In absence of any rules to the contrary, that should probably apply to beings that aren't that Demon too. However it doesn't clarify whether it is the next immediate action that is lost or just one at the end of the melee (Considering the Demon only has the one action so it is impossible to tell - in the case of that Demon, both possibilities would have the same outcome), although I would expect the former.

So in that sense, power attacking does have its benefits. Doing two actions worth of damage up front could potentially kill/incapacitate your victim before he has an opportunity to retaliate. Getting your damage out as fast as possible is a tremendous advantage.

[Alrik Vas]

Coming back to this thread...hrm...

I think the best way to deal with power punches is actually like this:

Does +50% damage, roll strike with half bonuses, miss on a 10 or lower with bonuses.

[torjones]

I can't think of any type of punch that can't be thrown at full power in less than a second.

The Power Punch is an example of a rule that must have seemed like a good idea at the time, but fails the smell test.

--flatline

I've seen wing chun masters throw 20 punches in a second.

Some punches/kicks are slow and powerful, others fast and not so powerful. slow attacks are generally easier to dodge, unless the target isn't able to see it coming somehow. Fast attacks are harder to dodge.

These aspects of real fights are not handled well in any gaming system that I'm aware of.

[torjones]

Easier still to do away with attacks per melee entirely.
--flatline

Then how do you deal with it? I mean, different characters have differing amount of attacks per melee, not everyone has the same number of attacks, so some people would be able to attack more often in 15 seconds than others.

If you get rid of that, what do you replace it with?

[flatline]

Easier still to do away with attacks per melee entirely.
--flatline

Then how do you deal with it? I mean, different characters have differing amount of attacks per melee, not everyone has the same number of attacks, so some people would be able to attack more often in 15 seconds than others.

If you get rid of that, what do you replace it with?

Narrative combat.

--flatline

[Alrik Vas]

I prefer to combine narration with the existing rules. I have a feeling that KS does something similar, considering his fast and loose way of using his own ruleset.

[random_username]

Some GMs have treated multiple-attack-actions as simply a faster way of burning through overall attacks instead of penalizing them and delaying the impact moment. Though magic spells requiring multiple actions have leaned the opposite way.