Skills Question

[KillWatch]

This might be simply addressed but at the moment in my head it seems complicated
When do you roll? Canon wise, and then otherwise.
Do you only roll when in combat and under pressure? That would explain the topping out at 98% and not being able to stack. But if not then you roll each time. And if so then you have a pretty decent chance of crashing. An MD has a good chance of killing you. and I am NOT getting on a plane with a first level pilot. Where are the penalties for duress? and why can't I stack, if I get penalties so that I can perform these skills well despite the penalties.

[Damian Magecraft]

This might be simply addressed but at the moment in my head it seems complicated
When do you roll? Canon wise, and then otherwise.
Do you only roll when in combat and under pressure? That would explain the topping out at 98% and not being able to stack. But if not then you roll each time. And if so then you have a pretty decent chance of crashing. An MD has a good chance of killing you. and I am NOT getting on a plane with a first level pilot. Where are the penalties for duress? and why can't I stack, if I get penalties so that I can perform these skills well despite the penalties.

only when the outcome is critical or overly difficult

[MaxxSterling]

What that guy said. ^

[KillWatch]

is that canon? Or interpretation. I haven't seen the part where it says when to roll

[Damian Magecraft]

is that canon? Or interpretation. I haven't seen the part where it says when to roll

canon.
its found in the old Magic of Palladium mags.
Its a Q&A answered by da man himself.

[KillWatch]

well as long as they made it accessible

[Damian Magecraft]

well as long as they made it accessible

As far as I know the collected MoPs are available in the online store.

[jaymz]

Yes Damian the Collect Magic of Palladium Books is still available on the online store ....

https://palladium-store.com/1001/produc ... Books.html

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

This might be simply addressed but at the moment in my head it seems complicated
When do you roll? Canon wise, and then otherwise.
Do you only roll when in combat and under pressure? That would explain the topping out at 98% and not being able to stack. But if not then you roll each time. And if so then you have a pretty decent chance of crashing. An MD has a good chance of killing you. and I am NOT getting on a plane with a first level pilot. Where are the penalties for duress? and why can't I stack, if I get penalties so that I can perform these skills well despite the penalties.

only when the outcome is critical or overly difficult

So then should we assume an automatic success unless the GM says "roll for a skill check"??

[The Beast]

This might be simply addressed but at the moment in my head it seems complicated
When do you roll? Canon wise, and then otherwise.
Do you only roll when in combat and under pressure? That would explain the topping out at 98% and not being able to stack. But if not then you roll each time. And if so then you have a pretty decent chance of crashing. An MD has a good chance of killing you. and I am NOT getting on a plane with a first level pilot. Where are the penalties for duress? and why can't I stack, if I get penalties so that I can perform these skills well despite the penalties.

only when the outcome is critical or overly difficult

So then should we assume an automatic success unless the GM says "roll for a skill check"??

Pretty much.

[Killer Cyborg]

This might be simply addressed but at the moment in my head it seems complicated
When do you roll? Canon wise, and then otherwise.
Do you only roll when in combat and under pressure? That would explain the topping out at 98% and not being able to stack. But if not then you roll each time. And if so then you have a pretty decent chance of crashing. An MD has a good chance of killing you. and I am NOT getting on a plane with a first level pilot. Where are the penalties for duress? and why can't I stack, if I get penalties so that I can perform these skills well despite the penalties.

only when the outcome is critical or overly difficult

So then should we assume an automatic success unless the GM says "roll for a skill check"??

Pretty much.

Yup.

[KillWatch]

so a guy with a prowl of 98 can take out an entire army? because if they make it they are almost better than invisible. Scratch that,... better than invisibility because at least you can counter invisibility with see invisible

[Damian Magecraft]

so a guy with a prowl of 98 can take out an entire army? because if they make it they are almost better than invisible. Scratch that,... better than invisibility because at least you can counter invisibility with see invisible

Not necessarily...
The GM can apply penalties based on the difficulty of the task.

[KillWatch]

but is that in the rules? where is the list of applied penalties? And isn't the actual roll a roll under duress? and if so then the roll itself is applied penalties

[Damian Magecraft]

but is that in the rules? where is the list of applied penalties? And isn't the actual roll a roll under duress? and if so then the roll itself is applied penalties

yes it is in the rules...
RUE Page 301

[KillWatch]

a) So I need the RUE to play HU PF N&SS TMNT well really anything else?
b) so then address what is "normal" duress vs penalized duress? All of these penalties are what would be defined as duress. Which makes me wonder why they exist if the only time I am supposed to roll IS under duress and the score is supposed to be my chance to do so under duress. THis makes it seem like I am supposed to roll all the time under normal circumstances

[jaymz]

It isn't necessarily only when under duress. Example - Computer Operation. I wouldn't make you do a skill roll to boot it up but I would make you do one to do a file search.

Prowl is never an auto success. You roll to see if you can get past the guard. Failure means you snapped a twig or somehow gave away your position.

[Damian Magecraft]

a) So I need the RUE to play HU PF N&SS TMNT well really anything else?
b) so then address what is "normal" duress vs penalized duress? All of these penalties are what would be defined as duress. Which makes me wonder why they exist if the only time I am supposed to roll IS under duress and the score is supposed to be my chance to do so under duress. THis makes it seem like I am supposed to roll all the time under normal circumstances

No you do not need RUE to play a game other than Rifts...
You never specified which setting so I used the most easily accessible rule book.

[KillWatch]

DM: Where. because they aren't PFRPG. That only has penalties for advanced or dramatically alterred technology for -5 to -30. but really,... wth, It says nothing about any other types of skills, just really, lockpicking. see below
Jaymz: Yes. the computer skill is not under duress turning it on. However searching for a file is not under duress. Being shot at, near a bomb with a timer, with comrades yelling at you to hurry up, ok. But according to the rules put forth here, just searching for a file with all the time in the world does not qualify. So yes, that would be an auto success. If not then you are saying that someone trying to hide it requires a roll. But then the roll is contested by someone else trying to hide it.
As for prowl, if you have a 98, yeah its pretty automatic. No one will see you, unless you apply extra penalties. But having to roll is supposed to be the effect of duress or a "contested" roll. sooooo...
explain;
A) The percentage is only there for rolls under duress/"contested"
B) If you use the penalties for duress, this implies that the percentage is rolled under normal circumstances, and these are penalties under Duress or "contested"
C) You are being doubly penalized by 1) having to roll and 2) adding penalties onto the duress for being under duress.
Or D) something that hasn't been made clear to me just yet

[Damian Magecraft]

DM: Where. because they aren't PFRPG. That only has penalties for advanced or dramatically alterred technology for -5 to -30. but really,... wth, It says nothing about any other types of skills, just really, lockpicking. see below
Jaymz: Yes. the computer skill is not under duress turning it on. However searching for a file is not under duress. Being shot at, near a bomb with a timer, with comrades yelling at you to hurry up, ok. But according to the rules put forth here, just searching for a file with all the time in the world does not qualify. So yes, that would be an auto success. If not then you are saying that someone trying to hide it requires a roll. But then the roll is contested by someone else trying to hide it.
As for prowl, if you have a 98, yeah its pretty automatic. No one will see you, unless you apply extra penalties. But having to roll is supposed to be the effect of duress or a "contested" roll. sooooo...
explain;
A) The percentage is only there for rolls under duress/"contested"
B) If you use the penalties for duress, this implies that the percentage is rolled under normal circumstances, and these are penalties under Duress or "contested"
C) You are being doubly penalized by 1) having to roll and 2) adding penalties onto the duress for being under duress.
Or D) something that hasn't been made clear to me just yet

so prowling across an open field in broad daylight with 100 guys actively looking for sneaky types do not warrant penalties?
man I want to play in your games...
my 3rd level thief with the 98% prowl and pick pockets will be filthy rich after one session.

[KillWatch]

No absolutely not, I have a spot skill that contests it. But that is what is being presented here. The precedent is Concealment v Detect Concealment. Something is hidden, someone searches for it. A locksmith builds a lock, a thief tries to pick it. A computer programmer tries to set up security and firewalls a hacker tries to get by them.

I posit that rolls should always be made. Not for simple things like turning on a computer or starting a car (unless its a crap car) but for driving, yes, for using the computer for research yes, but then you also have to roll research. For every skill roll you a re rewarded 10 XP make it or not. At 98+% though I wouldn't bother having them roll. But if they wanted to for the 10 XP sure. but failure means a lot of bad.

But what is being presented here is as I listed;
You do not roll unless it is under difficult circumstances. This implies that your fail rate in difficult circumstances is what your percentage is.
But then why would you get pinged again for the things that make it difficult in the first place requiring a roll.
The only way I can make that makes sense, while still not liking it, is to say
is this hard? Yes: ok then your Starting percentile is X
What conditions apply? ABCDE
Your success rate is Y%

but then it begs the question why aren't these rates in every book? Why is this not clearly defined? Is what I wrote that hard to understand?

[jaymz]

Exactly where does it state that skill rolls are ONLY made under duress? My understanding is skill rolls are made when there should be a chance of failure and the penalties represent any duress and/or additional difficulties in using said skill.

[KillWatch]

A) as stated in the book there is always a chance for failure
B) I'm with you. Have you read some of the other posts?

[Killer Cyborg]

Exactly where does it state that skill rolls are ONLY made under duress? My understanding is skill rolls are made when there should be a chance of failure and the penalties represent any duress and/or additional difficulties in using said skill.

How often do you roll language checks for PCs and NPCs?

[Killer Cyborg]

so a guy with a prowl of 98 can take out an entire army? because if they make it they are almost better than invisible. Scratch that,... better than invisibility because at least you can counter invisibility with see invisible

Just as you don't need to roll when situations are easy, you don't always have to roll when situations are hard.
If I'm looking right at you, in an empty, brightly-lit room, you're not going to get to make a prowl roll to hide from me.
Other times, there will be situational penalties, depending on conditions.

[Killer Cyborg]

I posit that rolls should always be made. Not for simple things like turning on a computer or starting a car...

So rolls should always be made... just not always?

[KillWatch]

Language Checks: Anytime they try to speak another language other than their native and are trying to impress or communicate a complicated idea in association with another skill like advanced math or science or religion, etc.
Prowl: "If I'm looking right at you, in an empty, brightly-lit room, you're not going to get to make a prowl roll to hide from me." unless you blink, check your watch, answer a phone call etc. I understand that that would be an obvious abuse, I also believe it to be completely legal.

"So rolls should always be made... just not always?" Clever! yes. Turning on something you've done a hundred times before fine. Turning on something you have never turned on then yes, roll. A keyless car when you have always used a key. A key car when you usually just touch and go. A computer that is voice activated. a computer whose builder put the on switch in the keyboard. Do I make a strike check to poke a piece of chicken? no. Do I if I have a still target and have a +5 to strike? Yes. Do I make a spot check for someone in the shower to make sure they got clean? no. Do I make a spot check to notice a small incision mark on their inner thigh. Yep. so, as with all things. No/Yes

"As with a lot of other rules; skill rolls are heavily left to the determination of the GM as to difficulty by and large there are additional (suggested/optional) rules in place, which others have mentioned. This is why some have the love/hate relationship with the Palladium system; the possibility for multiple interpretation of “the rules” is frequent and often"
Its not just a possibility its inherent. Because they print stuff in one book, but either ignore or disregard it in another. perfect example TMNT Spd bonus.

I'm just saying their should be opposed checks. A thief should be able pick a guy's pocket who has no idea no real issues (percentile allowing). But for another thief, or someone who knows how to do it, they know what to look for.

[jaymz]

Exactly where does it state that skill rolls are ONLY made under duress? My understanding is skill rolls are made when there should be a chance of failure and the penalties represent any duress and/or additional difficulties in using said skill.

How often do you roll language checks for PCs and NPCs?

A simple phrase like "hello how are you?" I'd let slide

Directions to the office of the Chairman of the Boards? I'd make them roll.

If that helps any.

[jaymz]

A) as stated in the book there is always a chance for failure
B) I'm with you. Have you read some of the other posts?

Yes but i am addressing yours not theirs.

Yes there is always a chance of failure, except when there isn't.

To turn on a computer that has the power switch clearly marked then there is no chance of failure thus no skill roll needed

However if that computer is custom built and the power switch is hidden or not clearly marked then yes I'd make you roll a skill as there is a chance you can't find the power switch and thus a chance of failure.

[Killer Cyborg]

Language Checks: Anytime they try to speak another language other than their native and are trying to impress or communicate a complicated idea in association with another skill like advanced math or science or religion, etc.

Why not Native Language?

Prowl: "If I'm looking right at you, in an empty, brightly-lit room, you're not going to get to make a prowl roll to hide from me." unless you blink, check your watch, answer a phone call etc. I understand that that would be an obvious abuse, I also believe it to be completely legal.

Why do you believe that it would be completely legal?

"So rolls should always be made... just not always?" Clever! yes. Turning on something you've done a hundred times before fine. Turning on something you have never turned on then yes, roll. A keyless car when you have always used a key. A key car when you usually just touch and go. A computer that is voice activated. a computer whose builder put the on switch in the keyboard.

Sounds like we're close to agreement here: only do checks when there's something different/difficult going on.

[Killer Cyborg]

Exactly where does it state that skill rolls are ONLY made under duress? My understanding is skill rolls are made when there should be a chance of failure and the penalties represent any duress and/or additional difficulties in using said skill.

How often do you roll language checks for PCs and NPCs?

A simple phrase like "hello how are you?" I'd let slide

Directions to the office of the Chairman of the Boards? I'd make them roll.

If that helps any.

Maybe.
Why would you make them roll?

[jaymz]

based on how most people learn a different language and some personal experience with french in particular, simple phrases are easily remembered while more in depth phrases and sentences would be more difficult to understand and thus more likely to get misunderstood.

[Killer Cyborg]

based on how most people learn a different language and some personal experience with french in particular, simple phrases are easily remembered while more in depth phrases and sentences would be more difficult to understand and thus more likely to get misunderstood.

Okay.
But is it really worth always gaming that out?
I mean, realistically, there's always a small chance to stub your toe when you're walking, even across an empty room.
But I only bother having people make balance checks for balance beam situations, or when something's actively trying to knock them down.

Likewise, with language, I don't believe that I've ever had anybody make a skill roll for their native language, even though there's technically a 2-10% chance of failure... simply because failure on that level is almost never interesting or important.

Same with stuff like Pilot: Auto.
We all make mistakes when we drive, but most mistakes aren't worth commenting on. So I'm not going to have somebody bother to roll the dice when failure only means something along the lines of "you drifted over the yellow line for a second. Then you corrected it."

I just don't see the need to tie up game time that way.

[jaymz]

That's why i specified in regards to a different language not your native language.

[Killer Cyborg]

That's why i specified in regards to a different language not your native language.

Okay; now apply the same thinking to a different language.
How often is it going to be worthwhile to role-play minor misunderstandings from improper translations?

I mean, it could be potentially hilarious and/or life-threatening... but only occasionally.
The vast majority of the time, playing out the consequences of poor grammar isn't want I'm into.

[jaymz]

That's why i specified in regards to a different language not your native language.

Okay; now apply the same thinking to a different language.
How often is it going to be worthwhile to role-play minor misunderstandings from improper translations?

I mean, it could be potentially hilarious and/or life-threatening... but only occasionally.
The vast majority of the time, playing out the consequences of poor grammar isn't want I'm into.

THAT would be up to the GM. The above scenario I painted wasn't under duress but is something that allows the GM to manipulate future events depending on the result. Is it under duress? No. Is it important to get ti right? Yes. Do you do this all the time? No.

Edit - To me a skill roll is needed whenever the GM determines one is needed. Under duress, unfamiliar objects/operations, so on and so forth.

[Killer Cyborg]

That's why i specified in regards to a different language not your native language.

Okay; now apply the same thinking to a different language.
How often is it going to be worthwhile to role-play minor misunderstandings from improper translations?

I mean, it could be potentially hilarious and/or life-threatening... but only occasionally.
The vast majority of the time, playing out the consequences of poor grammar isn't want I'm into.

THAT would be up to the GM. The above scenario I painted wasn't under duress but is something that allows the GM to manipulate future events depending on the result. Is it under duress? No. Is it important to get ti right? Yes. Do you do this all the time? No.

Edit - To me a skill roll is needed whenever the GM determines one is needed. Under duress, unfamiliar objects/operations, so on and so forth.

I'd say that whether you "need" to get it right depends on the stakes involved.
If it's a minute of confusion, or even 5 minutes of back-tracking, then it's generally not important.

[jaymz]

That's why i specified in regards to a different language not your native language.

Okay; now apply the same thinking to a different language.
How often is it going to be worthwhile to role-play minor misunderstandings from improper translations?

I mean, it could be potentially hilarious and/or life-threatening... but only occasionally.
The vast majority of the time, playing out the consequences of poor grammar isn't want I'm into.

THAT would be up to the GM. The above scenario I painted wasn't under duress but is something that allows the GM to manipulate future events depending on the result. Is it under duress? No. Is it important to get ti right? Yes. Do you do this all the time? No.

Edit - To me a skill roll is needed whenever the GM determines one is needed. Under duress, unfamiliar objects/operations, so on and so forth.

I'd say that whether you "need" to get it right depends on the stakes involved.
If it's a minute of confusion, or even 5 minutes of back-tracking, then it's generally not important.

I'd say that depends on want the gm wants or can do because of that confusion

[Killer Cyborg]

I'd say that whether you "need" to get it right depends on the stakes involved.
If it's a minute of confusion, or even 5 minutes of back-tracking, then it's generally not important.

I'd say that depends on want the gm wants or can do because of that confusion

Well, that's the other side- if the GM wants there to be confusion, he can do it without rolling any dice.
Just have the NPC give faulty directions.
Or inarticulate directions, and leave the players to mess up interpretation on their own.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

I think Killwatch is posting under duress. Or else he learned a new word and is having fun using it. lol

Roll against your language check and forum posting etiquette check.

Lol.

j/k buddy

Also, can you give me info on your spot skill?

[KillWatch]

I got in a description and can't get it out of my vocabulary yet since it fits.
it's like word of the day on repeat,... under duress

[Stone Gargoyle]

Some skills have to be rolled whether under duress or not just to check your knowledge base and ability to perform the skill based on your knowledge, like anything to do with electronics or mechanics. Certain things like driving only get rolls when driving in hazardous conditions, you are new to driving, or are trying to do multiple things at once. I only have players do language checks if making a speech or speaking in a language other than their native tongue.

[Goliath Strongarm]

As for languages and communicating....

I typically have the PCs roll once for communicating with someone, unless it is the native language for both. As long as they both make the check, then they can continue to communicate with no problems, unless it goes into complex language. If it goes too complex, I'll have them roll for every few sentences. If they don't both make that initial check, I'll start having "interesting" mistranslations, until they do both make a check at the same time.

However, when it's the native language for both, I don't usually bother with it, unless it's extremely complex language or ideas.

MANY years ago, I was the "roll for every 20 words" guy, unless it was your native language, but, I picked up the above from an old group, and have used it ever since...

[Damian Magecraft]

As for languages and communicating....

I typically have the PCs roll once for communicating with someone, unless it is the native language for both. As long as they both make the check, then they can continue to communicate with no problems, unless it goes into complex language. If it goes too complex, I'll have them roll for every few sentences. If they don't both make that initial check, I'll start having "interesting" mistranslations, until they do both make a check at the same time.

However, when it's the native language for both, I don't usually bother with it, unless it's extremely complex language or ideas.

MANY years ago, I was the "roll for every 20 words" guy, unless it was your native language, but, I picked up the above from an old group, and have used it ever since...

I always just treated Languages as a passive skill...
Unless it was an extremely complex concept being communicated then a roll would be required.

[Alrik Vas]

I think making a language check is proper, even with your native tongue, when someone uses a regional dialect. You have to take a second to figure out what the person means when they say something that to most would be nonsensical.

[Dunia]

I have made it so that my players can have a maximum of 115% +IQ modifier (for IQ of 16+) in their OCC skills (though they still fail on 99-100). These extra 18% above what the book says is just to make it easier for a player when they have penalties for stress or difficult tasks and is just there to show that Operators have it easier to do technical stuff than say a Ley Line Walker, while a Wilderness scout is better than a Body Fixer in finding the tracks of the runaway nodosaurus.