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Ok guys,

Here's the story: I'm working on a REF/UEEF Pilot for a Rifts "Power/Munch" campaign full of Human mutants. I'll be a survivor of the last mission/assault to re-claim Earth from the alien hordes. During the assault I'll be hurled into a rift and sent into an alternate Earth Rifts timeline.

I get to pick an Alpha/Beta combo and in addition to the pilot, I also get to make a quasi-npc mechanic type to maintain/operate/repair both.

1.) Where can I find stat's for both the Shadow's and the Super's ??

2.) Sell me on either types: Good, Bad, Ugly, Etc....

Thx, Deathknight69

shadow alpha's can be found in robotech the shadow chronicles RPG main book.

we do not have stats for super alpha's yet. mainly because they are going to play a major role in the shadow chronicles sequel (whenever that gets made ), so HG probably didn't want to provide spoilers for whatever they decide the super's can do.. or they don't yet know what they want it to do, and didn't want palladium trying to guess and do it wrong.

thing is.. shadow fighters only show up for reflex point.. and that was successful.

your backstory might work better if he is a survivor from the battle of Space Station Liberty, against the haydonites. then a shadowfighter would make some sense. might take a small amount of story adjustment to get your NPC, but it could be done.

against the invid, if your part of a failed assault, your flying a regular alpha.

Deathknight69 wrote:Here's the story: I'm working on a REF/UEEF Pilot for a Rifts "Power/Munch" campaign full of Human mutants. I'll be a survivor of the last mission/assault to re-claim Earth from the alien hordes. During the assault I'll be hurled into a rift and sent into an alternate Earth Rifts timeline.

*nods* 'cept for the "Mutants" part, that's a pretty conventional setup. I've used that once or twice myself.

Deathknight69 wrote:1.) Where can I find stat's for both the Shadow's and the Super's ??

You can find the requisite stats for the regular Shadow versions in the RT2E core book. They don't really have a completely separate section, since there's very little actual difference between the regular Alpha/Beta and the Shadow version in terms of game stats. The only significant differences are that the Shadow fighter has a different gun pod and the Shadow fighter and Shadow Beta both have the stealth package described therein.

At present, Palladium has not released stats for the "Super" version of either, and say as much in the RT2E core book. The excuse given was that Haydonite "treachery" took the shadow technology systems behind 'em out of action right away. In practice, there's not really enough detail available on the "Super Shadow Fighter" to come up with conclusive stats, but for the "Synchro Beta" it's just a very slight speed increase from the tiny booster engine, a half-dozen extra mini-missiles, and the defective fixed-forward synchro cannon. (Basic stats for synchro cannons are available in the book, so adapting them isn't at all hard.)

Deathknight69 wrote:2.) Sell me on either types: Good, Bad, Ugly, Etc....

To be honest, they're not really all that different... the Super Shadow Fighter is just a regular Shadow Fighter with a badly designed set of FAST packs bolted on, and the Synchro Beta is just a regular Shadow Beta with a FAST pack. The "Super" version seen in RTSC was a prototype which was viable in combat because its shadow technology-derived systems hadn't yet been fully installed, so they weren't prone to sabotage-induced explosion at the drop of a hat like everything else the UEEF had.

Really, the only argument for or against one or the other is entirely contingent on where you're going to be fighting... one of the few details revealed about the Super Shadow Fighter is that its FAST packs are unsuitable for use in atmosphere, so the regular version would be preferable on those grounds.

If you want another "super" Alpha/Beta combo, try The Third Robotech War web site. Ya, it might be based on the old rules, but there're a kick butt awsome mecha!

Alpha 11 wrote:If you want another "super" Alpha/Beta combo, try The Third Robotech War web site. Ya, it might be based on the old rules, but there're a kick butt awsome mecha!

Thought that site was down.
As for what to take, I'd go with the Shadow. Get known stats, the extra bonuses from the shadow device (that would work in Rifts), and since its a Rifts game, you can add what you need with tech from that game (Force Field for armor, micro missiles, ext.). Also did anybody else notice that when the Beta disengages the synchro cannon, the mounting with the extra booster doesn't separate from the Beta. You can mount for other weapon systems.
Also I don't think the Super can separate the Alpha and Beta. In the movie Marcus gets hit in the Right engine of the Beta, and everybody makes a big deal of this, because he's dead in the water. Witch makes no sense, because he should know that he could drop the Beta and run with just the Alpha. Witch he doesn't do, and nobody tells him to do, or he can't do because the Super is one machine not two.

VF-1. Pffft...who needs all those missiles??!?? i will kung fu with my valkyrie if i have to. Seriously though, the alpha is pretty cool. I'm just not a fan of it's speed, aesthetics, size, gun pod, shadowtech, etc etc...the only thing i like is it's missile payload, and even then i could get by without.

rem1093 wrote:

Alpha 11 wrote:If you want another "super" Alpha/Beta combo, try The Third Robotech War web site. Ya, it might be based on the old rules, but there're a kick butt awsome mecha!

Thought that site was down.
As for what to take, I'd go with the Shadow. Get known stats, the extra bonuses from the shadow device (that would work in Rifts), and since its a Rifts game, you can add what you need with tech from that game (Force Field for armor, micro missiles, ext.). Also did anybody else notice that when the Beta disengages the synchro cannon, the mounting with the extra booster doesn't separate from the Beta. You can mount for other weapon systems.
Also I don't think the Super can separate the Alpha and Beta. In the movie Marcus gets hit in the Right engine of the Beta, and everybody makes a big deal of this, because he's dead in the water. Witch makes no sense, because he should know that he could drop the Beta and run with just the Alpha. Witch he doesn't do, and nobody tells him to do, or he can't do because the Super is one machine not two.

No, he needed the Beta's engines to catch up with the ship, and with an engine down, he couldn't. And yes, it's still up.

Alpha 11 wrote:No, he needed the Beta's engines to catch up with the ship, and with an engine down, he couldn't. And yes, it's still up.

Actually, rem is right... it doesn't make sense. One of the few pieces of information we're given about the "Super Shadow Fighter" its that its FAST packs and other modifications push the fighter's performance all the way to the airframe design limit. He should, therefore, have been able to jettison the Beta and catch up just fine.

all they needed was a couple extra seconds of dialog.
someone: "Eject your beta'
Marcus: "the controls are unresponsive"

or something like that..

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Alpha 11 wrote:No, he needed the Beta's engines to catch up with the ship, and with an engine down, he couldn't. And yes, it's still up.

Actually, rem is right... it doesn't make sense. One of the few pieces of information we're given about the "Super Shadow Fighter" its that its FAST packs and other modifications push the fighter's performance all the way to the airframe design limit. He should, therefore, have been able to jettison the Beta and catch up just fine.

The regular Alpha can do mach. 2.4, the Beta, 7.2. Let's say we add another mach to it and say it can go 3.4 and 8.2 respeckfully, I still don't see it happening. The ship could not slow down, or they would all be dead. So I see it as making sence.

Alpha 11 wrote:The regular Alpha can do mach. 2.4, the Beta, 7.2. Let's say we add another mach to it and say it can go 3.4 and 8.2 respeckfully, I still don't see it happening. The ship could not slow down, or they would all be dead. So I see it as making sence.

That's atmospheric flight speed, Alpha... in space, there's no such thing as a top speed except the speed of light. We don't know how fast the Ark Angel was going, but it doesn't appear to have been going very fast at all, probably because the ship was expecting to have to recover Skull squadron before folding away. If he needed or wanted to catch up, all he would have had to do would be to continue accelerating, because the acceleration is cumulative without anything like atmospheric friction to slow him down.

The RPG doesn't represent that in its rules, because people tend to have a hard time getting their heads around the physics of maneuvering in space.

Also, if Maia got close enough when here unpowered escape module was just pushed in the general direction of the Ark Angel by Marcus, I don't think it would be an issue for Marcus to get close enough as well even in just an Alpha.

Seto wrote:Actually, rem is right... it doesn't make sense. One of the few pieces of information we're given about the "Super Shadow Fighter" its that its FAST packs and other modifications push the fighter's performance all the way to the airframe design limit. He should, therefore, have been able to jettison the Beta and catch up just fine.

This presumes that the damage inflicted was only physical.

Marcus failed to jettison his Super Beta fighter. Alex also failed to jettison his Beta module with the overloading syncro-cannon (which wouldn't eject). While Alex was using Haydonite tech and Marcus wasn't, they both encountered the same basic separation issue in being unable to jettison a module.

I would put forth the idea that the Haydonite weapons also have some secondary effect that has not been disclosed yet. Either Nano-sized saboteur droids (think Star Wars Ep3's buzz droids or in Star Trek:TNG nano-sized beings caused havoc on the Enterprise) or a mal-ware attack. Nano-machines are mentioned in TSC for medical purposes by Jean to Vince.

If anyone interested I DO have steelfalcon.com's site archived as a pdf.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Alpha 11 wrote:The regular Alpha can do mach. 2.4, the Beta, 7.2. Let's say we add another mach to it and say it can go 3.4 and 8.2 respeckfully, I still don't see it happening. The ship could not slow down, or they would all be dead. So I see it as making sence.

That's atmospheric flight speed, Alpha... in space, there's no such thing as a top speed except the speed of light. We don't know how fast the Ark Angel was going, but it doesn't appear to have been going very fast at all, probably because the ship was expecting to have to recover Skull squadron before folding away. If he needed or wanted to catch up, all he would have had to do would be to continue accelerating, because the acceleration is cumulative without anything like atmospheric friction to slow him down.

The RPG doesn't represent that in its rules, because people tend to have a hard time getting their heads around the physics of maneuvering in space.

Also, if Maia got close enough when here unpowered escape module was just pushed in the general direction of the Ark Angel by Marcus, I don't think it would be an issue for Marcus to get close enough as well even in just an Alpha.

I forget about that space rule. So if you want to go faster, you have to have more thrust. And you will continue that with that speed until you counter it to slow down or add to is to go faster. The only other way for it to make any sence is, he was just trying to get inside the fold buble, IIRR. The ship was also exceratiing. His engine was shot out just as he was about to enter the buble, therefore he is now at his max speed going in that direction. Unforinitly, the ship also was close to that speed and would so pass it, making it impossible for him to reach the safe zone, but I guess he figured this the throw, he could get the pod, just within the buble and they could fould out. When you first see this, it does make some sence, but I guess, if you dig into it, it might not. Anyways, that as close I can come to any good reason as any as to how it happen. I think that is what the writters were aimming for anyways. They might not have gotten it all right. In the end, it is just a show.

he wasn't at 'max speed'. max speed is is the speed of light, and he was nowhere near that.

what happened was he was accelerating to the ship, the ship appeared to be accelerating as well, but going by the ship stats we have for other UEEF ships, it was only doing so at about a tenth of the acceleration an Alpha could make.
then his beta's engines stopped accelerating him.. leaving him coasting at the speed where he stopped accelerating.

if he'd ejected the beta he could have continued to accelerate, leaving the beta behind as his alpha built up more velocity. it might have taken a few extra seconds to reach the ship, but he would have reached it easily.

glitterboy2098 wrote:he wasn't at 'max speed'. max speed is is the speed of light, and he was nowhere near that.

what happened was he was accelerating to the ship, the ship appeared to be accelerating as well, but going by the ship stats we have for other UEEF ships, it was only doing so at about a tenth of the acceleration an Alpha could make.
then his beta's engines stopped accelerating him.. leaving him coasting at the speed where he stopped accelerating.

if he'd ejected the beta he could have continued to accelerate, leaving the beta behind as his alpha built up more velocity. it might have taken a few extra seconds to reach the ship, but he would have reached it easily.

But what about thrust? Don't the Alpha have less thrust? How can he accelerate when they Beta has the greater engines? It seems like if we were both in zero gs next to a wall, one of us bairly touching the wall to move, and the othe really pushing off it, who has the more speed, the one who pushes more. Isn' that how it works? Or an I missing something?

the alpha has less thrust.. but it is also a lower mass. if if ejects the beta, he can use the alpha's engines to keep accelerating.

both the alpha, and the alpha+beta combo using the beta's engines, have higher acceleration than the ship he was trying to reach. so as long as he can keep accelerating, he will reach it.
but if he coasts along using what velocity he had built up, he'd never reach it, since the ship would be eventually get faster than him.

your not exactly missing anything, you just not used to thinking in this kind of enviroment.

first, in space there is no friction, and thus, you don't slow down if your engine shuts off.
second, as long as your engine stays on, you add velocity, getting faster and faster.
third, there is no top speed short of the speed of light.

so if i have a ship that can increase it's speed by 10 meters per second every second, so that after 1 second i'm moving 10m/s, after two i'm moving at 20m/s, after 3 i'm moving 30m/s, etc
and i have a ship that can only increase its speed at half that rate, they will eventually reach any velocity i chose.. the 2nd ship will just take longer to reach it.
the thing to remember is that acceleration increases your speed over time.. in the example of pushing off a wall, that is a one time only increase. this would be more like giving each of those two people a fire extinguisher to use as a rocket.

acceleration is a function of the mass (weight) of the ship, and how much thrust it has. an alpha has much less thrust than a beta.. but it also is only about a third of the mass than the Alpha+beta combo. so its acceleration would still be pretty good.

and as long as it is capable of doing better than 3 meters per second per second (which is what the HG/PB stats for the capital ships work out to at max thrust), he could easily have caught up using just the alpha. especially since he was almost there to start with.

the reason he was left behind was because by staying with the Beta, he coasted along at the velocity he had reached when the drives shut off.. remember no friction in space to slow you down..while the ship he was trying to reach kept accelerating and thus getting farther away. his idea to eject the cockpit was not a bad idea, it just wasn't enough.. it was a one time increase of a couple of meters per second.. but this destination was pulling away at at least that much every second, so once has free of the fighter, he was back to coasting along and being left behind.

Seto Kaiba wrote:To be honest, they're not really all that different... the Super Shadow Fighter is just a regular Shadow Fighter with a badly designed set of FAST packs bolted on, and the Synchro Beta is just a regular Shadow Beta with a FAST pack. The "Super" version seen in RTSC was a prototype which was viable in combat because its shadow technology-derived systems hadn't yet been fully installed, so they weren't prone to sabotage-induced explosion at the drop of a hat like everything else the UEEF had.

Really, the only argument for or against one or the other is entirely contingent on where you're going to be fighting... one of the few details revealed about the Super Shadow Fighter is that its FAST packs are unsuitable for use in atmosphere, so the regular version would be preferable on those grounds.

Ah... so kind of like the VF-1 FAST packs: optimized for space use, not so great when "down & dirty" in atmo. Good to know...

ShadowLogan wrote:Marcus failed to jettison his Super Beta fighter. Alex also failed to jettison his Beta module with the overloading syncro-cannon (which wouldn't eject). While Alex was using Haydonite tech and Marcus wasn't, they both encountered the same basic separation issue in being unable to jettison a module.

I would put forth the idea that the Haydonite weapons also have some secondary effect [...]

I doubt it, honestly... I think this is just more bad writing at work, rather than anything that smacks of actual consideration being given in advance.

glitterboy2098 wrote:his idea to eject the cockpit was not a bad idea, it just wasn't enough.. it was a one time increase of a couple of meters per second.. but this destination was pulling away at at least that much every second, so once has free of the fighter, he was back to coasting along and being left behind.

Apparently not, as Maia ejected hers, and with just a slight push from him she was able to keep up with the Ark Angel and be rescued just fine without any assistance from Ariel.

green.nova343 wrote:Ah... so kind of like the VF-1 FAST packs: optimized for space use, not so great when "down & dirty" in atmo. Good to know...

Yep, just not anywhere near as well-designed or sensible as the VF-1 FAST packs they're aping.

glitterboy2098 wrote:the alpha has less thrust.. but it is also a lower mass. if if ejects the beta, he can use the alpha's engines to keep accelerating.

both the alpha, and the alpha+beta combo using the beta's engines, have higher acceleration than the ship he was trying to reach. so as long as he can keep accelerating, he will reach it.
but if he coasts along using what velocity he had built up, he'd never reach it, since the ship would be eventually get faster than him.

your not exactly missing anything, you just not used to thinking in this kind of enviroment.

first, in space there is no friction, and thus, you don't slow down if your engine shuts off.
second, as long as your engine stays on, you add velocity, getting faster and faster.
third, there is no top speed short of the speed of light.

so if i have a ship that can increase it's speed by 10 meters per second every second, so that after 1 second i'm moving 10m/s, after two i'm moving at 20m/s, after 3 i'm moving 30m/s, etc
and i have a ship that can only increase its speed at half that rate, they will eventually reach any velocity i chose.. the 2nd ship will just take longer to reach it.
the thing to remember is that acceleration increases your speed over time.. in the example of pushing off a wall, that is a one time only increase. this would be more like giving each of those two people a fire extinguisher to use as a rocket.

acceleration is a function of the mass (weight) of the ship, and how much thrust it has. an alpha has much less thrust than a beta.. but it also is only about a third of the mass than the Alpha+beta combo. so its acceleration would still be pretty good.

and as long as it is capable of doing better than 3 meters per second per second (which is what the HG/PB stats for the capital ships work out to at max thrust), he could easily have caught up using just the alpha. especially since he was almost there to start with.

the reason he was left behind was because by staying with the Beta, he coasted along at the velocity he had reached when the drives shut off.. remember no friction in space to slow you down..while the ship he was trying to reach kept accelerating and thus getting farther away. his idea to eject the cockpit was not a bad idea, it just wasn't enough.. it was a one time increase of a couple of meters per second.. but this destination was pulling away at at least that much every second, so once has free of the fighter, he was back to coasting along and being left behind.

I know there is no friction in space, even bascily said that. Just didn't know all that goes into being in space. Thanks for the explaination. Guess we can leave it to creative licening and for drama.

Alpha11 wrote:I know there is no friction in space, even bascily said that. Just didn't know all that goes into being in space. Thanks for the explaination. Guess we can leave it to creative licening and for drama.

Another way to look at is to treat the Alpha/Beta combo as a multi-stage rocket. When a spent stage is jettisoned, the remaining stages don't fall back to zero speed/velocity.

It may not even come down to creative licensing/drama. It could simply be an unstated system failure or the pilot not thinking clearly. Alex had a similar issue when his syncro-cannon overloaded to where he couldn't jettison the Syncro-cannon pod, but did not simply jettison the Beta before it overloaded.

ShadowLogan wrote:

Alpha11 wrote:I know there is no friction in space, even bascily said that. Just didn't know all that goes into being in space. Thanks for the explaination. Guess we can leave it to creative licening and for drama.

Another way to look at is to treat the Alpha/Beta combo as a multi-stage rocket. When a spent stage is jettisoned, the remaining stages don't fall back to zero speed/velocity.

It may not even come down to creative licensing/drama. It could simply be an unstated system failure or the pilot not thinking clearly. Alex had a similar issue when his syncro-cannon overloaded to where he couldn't jettison the Syncro-cannon pod, but did not simply jettison the Beta before it overloaded.

Very true.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

green.nova343 wrote:Ah... so kind of like the VF-1 FAST packs: optimized for space use, not so great when "down & dirty" in atmo. Good to know...

Yep, just not anywhere near as well-designed or sensible as the VF-1 FAST packs they're aping.

Its not that they are well designed, witch they aren't, my problem with them is that they redundant. The Alpha doesn't really need a FAST pack, based on the Super, because it already has one in the Beta. The Beta gives the Alpha everything that the VF-1 FAST pack did, with enhanced speed and missile payload. But unlike the VF-1 FAST pack, the Beta works in an atmosphere and has true trans-atmospheric capabilities. But I could see an Armored version. As a side note does anybody no of any stats for when they are linked?

rem1093 wrote:Its not that they are well designed, witch they aren't, my problem with them is that they redundant. The Alpha doesn't really need a FAST pack, based on the Super, because it already has one in the Beta.

Eh... to be fair, that's not entirely accurate. The typical UEEF squadron doesn't seem to include more than one Beta... the sole exception we're shown being Skull squadron. With many of its armaments blocked off by the docked Alpha, all the Beta really adds is extra fuel, and that comes at the expense of actually degrading the Beta's performance with an extra 16.7t of mass and no thrust gain to speak of. A Super Pack would be a reasonable low-cost alternative to boost the Alpha's effective fuel capacity in space.

Sgt Anjay wrote:The Beta gives the Alpha everything that the VF-1 FAST pack did, with enhanced speed and missile payload. But unlike the VF-1 FAST pack, the Beta works in an atmosphere and has true trans-atmospheric capabilities.

But at a considerably greater cost in resources and fuel... with the UEEF doing most of its fighting in space, a cheaper, space-exclusive option would be fairly practical.

rem1093 wrote:

Seto Kaiba wrote:

green.nova343 wrote:Ah... so kind of like the VF-1 FAST packs: optimized for space use, not so great when "down & dirty" in atmo. Good to know...

Yep, just not anywhere near as well-designed or sensible as the VF-1 FAST packs they're aping.

Its not that they are well designed, witch they aren't, my problem with them is that they redundant. The Alpha doesn't really need a FAST pack, based on the Super, because it already has one in the Beta. The Beta gives the Alpha everything that the VF-1 FAST pack did, with enhanced speed and missile payload. But unlike the VF-1 FAST pack, the Beta works in an atmosphere and has true trans-atmospheric capabilities. But I could see an Armored version. As a side note does anybody no of any stats for when they are linked?

Nope.

Gryphon wrote:Aren't those two tings they used to call LRMs thrust bypass inlets to allow the Alpha to add its thrust to the Beta?

Just to be safe, I'll double-check the animation sheets... but I don't believe they've ever been officially labeled as such. I can't see any real benefit in it, as the engines that are up against those spots are pathetically low-powered. (Each one's rated for about 1/5th the peak output of a single VF-1 engine.)

Gryphon wrote:At least if we were seeing the majority of the two fighters thrust being used it would make some sense to put them together, beyond the Beta apparently having all of the thrust the two need to get into obit, even with a full weapons load out.

Remember, the only engines that are actually physically in contact with the Beta during fighter mode docking are three of the four exceptionally anemic sub-engines. The two in the forearms and the one VTOL engine in the crotch. Each one's rated for so little that their combined thrust wouldn't make much difference.

Gryphon wrote:And the upper leg guns can fire past the Alpha, and the upper torso missiles can still fire as well, though they gutted the missile bays, so this isn't a huge increase. If they had opted for two doors in the chest launchers instead of one massive fold down door, they could have still used those missiles as well.

True, but another fixed gun won't really do the combiner many favors... it's losing a lot in terms of agility by having its mass doubled. The Beta's missiles are a case of RT researchers giving a craft the unintentional shaft (hey, that rhymes!). Their second pair of missile launchers in the front of the torso are an acknowledged animation error in the original show, the only launcher that was actually part of the design are the "pop-up" dorsal launchers, which have a capacity of 48 missiles total.

Gryphon wrote:At the very minimum, the Beta's arm guns really should have had fore and aft firing systems, instead of being so limited. the might as well have left them more or less out of the damn plane! Ah well, bad engineering I guess.

Rushed design is more like it... the TLEAD was added to appease MOSPEADA's toy licensee, who wanted to cash in on Macross's success with transforming fighter jet toys.

Gryphon wrote:I know for a fact I have seen the Beta's "breast" launch bays in action, but I can't remember where, so it might (probably was) a fan art thing. Can you post verification about the current launchers chief? And can anyone post a counter image form Robotech itself? Robotech's canon might not line up with the OSM canon here, and it would trump.

Aside from the wing hard points, all the currently credited weapon stations in the RT.com Infopedia and 2E RPG are used in the show.
Episode "Reflex Point" uses:
-Bomb Bay
-Pop-up chest missile launchers
-forearm cannons

Episode "Metamorphosis" uses:
-center and leg intake cannons (only IIRC)

Episode 84/5 uses:
-flip-down chest launchers (Scott v Corg Round 2)
-pop-up launchers in use on the combiner (Shadow unit)
-arm cannons (Scott on the Shadow Drone to help Lancer/Sera)

Gryphon wrote:So if those are attachments to the weaker engines, then they are likely JUST attachment points then, and not thrust diverters. As you said, not really enough added to the whole to matter.

Yeah, when the conjoined craft weighs in at a whopping 43.1t (46.2t for the RT version) an extra 47kN of thrust per engine really isn't going to accomplish much.

Gryphon wrote:I know for a fact I have seen the Beta's "breast" launch bays in action, but I can't remember where, so it might (probably was) a fan art thing. Can you post verification about the current launchers chief?

ShadowLogan did a fine job of citing the weapons usage from the animation itself. The official OSM spec and actual animation model sheets (ref. MOSPEADA: Complete Art Works AB-01 TLEAD section) indicate that there are only the dorsal pop-up launchers, holding eight missiles ready to fire on each side, and a combined total of 48 missiles (24 per side, as three groups of 8_). The "breast" launchers were an animation error, much like the VF-1 w/ tail missiles, or what RT calls the VF-1R (really a misdrawn VF-1A).

EDIT: Just realized there was an unintentional smiley there.

Gryphon wrote:So it does show up in the animation then? Hmm...that makes it problematic then, because there is a world of difference between momentary additional lasers and silly tail fin missiles and a scene where a Beta pops open the breast launchers and actually fires.

No, there actually isn't... the only difference between the two situations you described is that some are recognized (via bad research practices) by Harmony Gold as "accurate" and others aren't. Like I said, it's an acknowledged off-model animation error in the original show.