Query about South America II

[cyberdon]

I'm curious too.

[Forar]

Pretty sure SA 1&2 were among the casualties when I sold off most of my collection, but I certainly recall having the opinion that CJ's works were, in general, noticeably more powerful than much of the other stuff available. Power creep is no surprise, of course, but the early books in particular could have some wonky variety in power levels, such as the England stuff having (a decade later, off the top of my head) like 40 mdc Leaf Armour, and the SA books having power armour on par with supposedly rare tech like the CS and Triax produced. Didn't one of the PA's have an auto-dodge? That amulet that basically became a full on suit of magic power armour? I recall the flechette/energy weapon thing that dealt pretty absurd damage to their corresponding opposition's armour (one was weak versus the other or something? They hit like trucks, I remember that much).

The Anti Monster was pretty bloody powerful, etc, etc.

I'd need to find a copy to flip through for more concrete examples, but that was my impression at the time.

[Sureshot]

The reason imo that people say the stuff in the books are overpowered is that how the tech should have been from the start. Weapons that had range and in some cases did more damage than a a rifle. With the proper amounts of MDC. As it should be imo. People starting crying foul and "overpowered" because their characters could actually be killed in one shot by some of the stuff in the book. Which again I see no problem. The damage values were not nerfed in favor of ensuring player survivability. As well I pretty much ignore Kevin trying to shift blame to CJ crella for the stuff being too strong. Kevin is the guy that okays everything. If he truly thought at the time it was broken he would have had CJ Carella alter it.

[wyrmraker]

South America 2, when it came out, was ahead of the curve on the power creep phenomenon. The weapons, when properly used with the old Burst Fire Rules, were devastatingly powerful. And then there was at least one weapon that beat out the Glitter Boy in both damage and range (which seems to be a big no-no in Rifts). Follow that up with the new style of glitter boy, the Achilles Neo-Human's mega-TK, the capabilities of the Ultra-Crazy, and the tortoise and elephant robots vehicles that were essentially walking battleships.

Carella's stuff was indeed a bit more powerful than other books, but I never saw a problem with it so long as it stayed in South America.

Some people hate SA2 for the massive power creep, mostly because the power-mongering players would grab gear from that book. I have never really minded it, mostly because I have the ability to turn people down when they ask for stuff from there. I have always seen SA2 as ahead of the curve on the power creep, as well as going in the right direction as far as how technology should be going in Rifts.

[Eashamahel]

Rifts had a crazy. South America introduced a Crazy, that was an MDC being. Why would you play a normal, SDC Crazy? And thus it went with the SA books.

[Alrik Vas]

As an aside, i look at different OCC's a bit different. When someone wants to play an Ultra Crazy, i look at them and ask, "Why are you in North America? Did you get lost? Who's going to hire a pants-on-head-crazy nut-job who can't find his way around a silly continent?" Then i shake my head and tell them to make a regular crazy. When i want to run a South America game, i'll run a South America game.

[MaxxSterling]

I think people get impressions and never move on. I think when S.A. 2 came out and also the fact that it is on Earth is what gave it a reputation for being overpowered. If you look at the book from a megaversal perspective, it's not that out of line. Since my games are always on a colossal scale, multi-world, multi-dimensional, I never gave a second thought to the stuff in that book, considering the monsters people can play. However if running a solely Earth game with S.D.C. stuff and 100 MDC armor being the avg, then yes, the stuff in that book kicks but. I think most of the complaints come from GM's who can't work around the stuff. It's a shame Palladium lost C.J. For me at least, Palladium died that day.

[Alrik Vas]

That's understandible. If i was going to run an "anything goes" game, i would have zero problems with ultra-crazies, a godling flying a silverhawk with a reflex cannon on it, whatever. Though sometimes you're going for a theme, and some people go, "but it's in the book" and won't give it up, and won't accept any sort of compromise you offer either.

Now, don't get me wrong, in reality, this has everything to do with the person and nothing to do with the material, but the difference in power level is noticable just the same.

[say652]

the amaki stoneman is my favorite in the book. followed by the ultra crazy and the incas. well actualy i loved both books.

[Eashamahel]

I think another reasons may have just been surprise/shock at where this power was coming from, and how no one really say SA coming.

In the first 9 world books you had a pretty big part of the world mapped out, and the books ran in one of two ways. Vampire Kingdoms, England, Africa described places and the people who lived there, and generally fell in line with the original Rifts equipment/OCCs, adding character and setting to the game more than new robots, power armour, weapons, ect. Atlantis, Triax and the NGR were on a bit higher scale, but Atlantis you could understand why that was, as each was supposed to be a technological/magical powerhouse, so each had it's own selection of superiour gear. Underseas fell in the middle of these two.

South America came out of nowhere. No one really expected South America to be a place where the power scale was on par with or even surpassed the second group. After establishing Triax extreme advancement and technological superiority of the CS, we find out that apparantly EVERY nation is at least that far ahead of the CS/NA, and South America is that far ahead on every thing (mutant animals, magic, tech, Crazies, ect), and it really crushed the luster of a lot of older books. If South America was closer (or further along) than Triax or Japan, then why would we want a Rifts England where there are Herbalists instead of new Power Armours, or an Africa with witches and Rain Dancers instead of Arkhons and Line Warriors? Also, at the time, it was the first part of the world to get two books, meaning not only was it on par with other super-powered areas of the world, it clearly needed at least twice as much room to describe, and was more apparantly more important than detailing other places in the world.

Now, with the bump in North America's power level that came with the game expanding, and the fact that many places get the two book treatment (or do in theory, like Australia), it's not that strange, but at that time, it just felt really odd.

[Forar]

It's endemic of one of the odd juxtapositions about Rifts, something that some see 'as a feature' and others see 'as a bug'.

On one hand you have GMs and players who comment on the power creep, and in response we tell them to limit the books players draw from, yet for other groups the ability to play a Werejaguar Warlock with magical power armour in an amulet that is piloting a suit of power armour that is in itself within a giant robot that is carrying a rune weapon the size of a dining room table is a massive draw. And at least when I played, the game played pretty fast and loose with equipment. "Weapon of choice" means a lot of things to a lot of people. >.>

Which in turn may be part of why we see some pushback as to why "SA/SA2 are regarded as too powerful", because unless you want to go through each book and give a thumbs up/down to every last skill, spell, OCC, RCC, psychic power, suit of armour, power armour, giant robot, etc, etc, etc, it's easier to just say "this stuff be super powerful, no you can't have it", and if going on that basis, honestly, I'd probably veto a bunch of Carella's books too.

My group played around in South America back in the day. I loved having a suit of Raptor power armour, of snagging some of the absurd "deals double damage to X" gear, and kicking a Vampire Intelligence's butt off this plane of existence, but when it was time to move on much of that gear eventually ran out of ammo, got sold/sent off to governments for reverse engineering, etc.

Also, if I could 'like' Eashamahel's post, I would. That sums it up pretty well too.

[cyberdon]

That's pretty much how I feel about it too. Personally, unless someone was usinge Giga-Damage, anything in the MDC range seems fair to me simply because that's how it is in real life and in nature:

A pygmy shrew doesn't have much of a chance against anything, yet it exists. On the other hand, the neurotoxic venom of a Sea Snake can kill most creatures in less that 20 seconds. If we use the Power Equality argument, then the Sea Snake is overpowered and 'not fair', yet it exists.

That's TOTALLY how I run my games; I couldn't agree more with this.

That's also why playing D&D got old much of the time -particularily when playing purchased adventures. Players would roll up characters and we'd always adventure in a dungeon suited to their level. I'd always think: shouldn't it be possible that we could encounter an adult red dragon. Why can't we, even if we looked hard for one? They exist don't they?

I like having no boundaries in Rifts. Sure, explore away folks, but beware, beware... because if rumour holds true, it's said that adventurers should take much care to avoid THAT mountain top...

[Akashic Soldier]

That's TOTALLY how I run my games; I couldn't agree more with this.

Yup.

[cyberdon]

Lol

[Killer Cyborg]

South America 2, when it came out, was ahead of the curve on the power creep phenomenon.

Rifts had a crazy. South America introduced a Crazy, that was an MDC being. Why would you play a normal, SDC Crazy? And thus it went with the SA books.

Yup.

Also:
One of the original themes of Rifts was that power comes with a price.
Juicers died for a few years of being superhuman.
Crazies went insane for it.
Borgs gave up their humanity.
Shifters potentially gave up their souls.

Mind Melters were potentially very powerful, but they were heavily restricted in their skills, and they were hunted by the most powerful nation on the continent, as were mages and dragons.

If you wanted to be a heavy-hitter in the original setting, you had to suffer for it, at least to some extent.
But in South America... you could have all the advantages of being human, with all the advantages of being a mega-damage, super-powered creature.
There was plenty of power, but with few exceptions (Anti-Monster), there was no real cost.

And this even extends to the weapons, like the ATL-7.
Back in the original Rifts book, you could burn an entire E-Clip and inflict 3d6x10 MD at a target, if you had the right weapon. But it took two attacks, and you only got the +1 to strike for a burst at best, and -6 for firing Wild at worst.
With the ATL-7, you still burn an entire clip... but you inflict more damage (3d6x10+20 MD, compared to the 3d6x7 of the CB1 burst rules), you only lose one attack, and you get the bonuses for an Aimed shot.
People can (and have) argued, "but that's only a little bit better! Not much difference!"
And THAT is the essence of power creep- making new things that are "only a little bit better" than the previous BEST that the world had to offer.

[flatline]

I guess SA1 and SA2 need to go on my list to get. Any books that can generate both love and hate probably have at least some interesting ideas in them.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

I guess SA1 and SA2 need to go on my list to get. Any books that can generate both love and hate probably have at least some interesting ideas in them.

--flatline

There ARE some interesting ideas in them.
With your enjoyment of super powers, there should be plenty of stuff in there that you'll like.

[Nightmask]

I guess SA1 and SA2 need to go on my list to get. Any books that can generate both love and hate probably have at least some interesting ideas in them.

--flatline

Yes they're both quite nice, and I love the Biomancer (book 1 ) and Gizmoteer (book 2 ), although I tend to ignore the 'must act like a nutty Vegan' nonsense for the Biomancer.

[Akashic Soldier]

Yes they're both quite nice, and I love the Biomancer (book 1 ) and Gizmoteer (book 2 ), although I tend to ignore the 'must act like a nutty Vegan' nonsense for the Biomancer.

I think that is their most interesting part. Take that away and they might as well be Druids.

[flatline]

I guess SA1 and SA2 need to go on my list to get. Any books that can generate both love and hate probably have at least some interesting ideas in them.

--flatline

There ARE some interesting ideas in them.
With your enjoyment of super powers, there should be plenty of stuff in there that you'll like.

MMMMMmmmmm....super powers!

--flatline

[Zamion138]

I think its also the archons with the tri beam tech, the average suit of armor having so much mdc and so on.
Now its not a huge gap if any but when it came out sa2 was really hard core gear.
But as others have said no gm should let a player start with a tri beam rifle nor a neo human in NA. The power levels are right for the area and setting but if they got exported back then they were a bit over the top.
I never let a player nor was i allowed to take sa2 stuff in say a canada game. It wouldnt make alot of sense and the ammo was not to be found.

[Snow Hawk]

I love parts of both SA1 and SA2 my old group got them shortly after they came out and we had no problems. Some of the stuff is still in my top picks like the Biomancer and the Line maker

[Forar]

Man, people seem pretty hardcore about restricting geographical zones.

I can't even imagine the hoops I would've had to jump through to get to play with a Cyclone in one of those campaigns.

[Killer Cyborg]

Man, people seem pretty hardcore about restricting geographical zones.

I can't even imagine the hoops I would've had to jump through to get to play with a Cyclone in one of those campaigns.

Actually, you wouldn't have to do much in my campaign-world.
You could belong to the Fort Garfish colony in Florida, which is founded around a crashed spaceship from Robotech.
Or you could be a special forces soldier for the CS, because they captured a Cyclone and made their own (inferior) version.

[Zamion138]

Man, people seem pretty hardcore about restricting geographical zones.

I can't even imagine the hoops I would've had to jump through to get to play with a Cyclone in one of those campaigns.

It would depend on the game, if we were running a na mercs game possibly. If we were. Playing a new west low power game probaly not.
If we were playing ngr military game, almost impossible

[Nightmask]

Man, people seem pretty hardcore about restricting geographical zones.

I can't even imagine the hoops I would've had to jump through to get to play with a Cyclone in one of those campaigns.

Irony wise you'd likely have an easier time getting the Cyclone in than you would something from Rifts: Japan or South America.

[flatline]

Man, people seem pretty hardcore about restricting geographical zones.

I can't even imagine the hoops I would've had to jump through to get to play with a Cyclone in one of those campaigns.

I've usually allowed characters to start with whatever the players ask for since rare or unusual equipment makes for great plot hooks. Any player asking for rare and/or powerful equipment has to accept that such equipment often draws unwanted attention. This usually made such requests self-limiting since it does you no good to start with neat alien equipment that gets confiscated by the local authorities (or stolen by a fellow player character).

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

And the thing about South America is that a great deal of the concepts, classes and gear, is that some of it really isn't all that overpowered, or even overpowered at all. Here, lets take a look at South America 1 first:

Take the Republic of Columbia's gear for instance. The laser pistol is weak but otherwise averages well against North America, the laser rifle is as powerful as a C-12, but extremely short ranged, and the plasma projector is just plain weaker than any of those from North America. The rocket pistol is no more powerful than an NG-57, though it has a lot more range than a gyrojet pistol really has any right to, while the rifle has the same range, way too much ammo, and horribly inefficient ammo usage rates! Meanwhile, none of their heavier gear is all that overpowered at all, in fact most of it comes up being about as good or slightly less than the RMB!

Not exactly.
The C-12 did 4d6 MD on a burst of 5 shots, and only 2d6 per single shot; the RC-15 did 3d6+6 on a single shot.
(Even if you want to argue about the damage of a C-12, though, I'll point out that 3d6+6 is better than 4d6: the average of 4d6 is 14, but the average of 3d6+6 is 16.5.)
And the RC-15 has a ROF of Standard, so it could fire short bursts for x2 damage, inflicting 6d6+12 MD, which is better per-attack damage than the L-20, the vaunted NG-P7, or the SAMAS rail gun.
And it could rip off an entire clip for (3d6+6)x10 MD, which is better damage than the Boom Gun (though it would take up two attacks).
Any way you slice it, it's a significant boost in firepower.

Similar deal with the rocket rifle, though I agree with your assessment of the rocket pistol.
The RR-C40 does 3d6 MD per shot, which is better than most laser weapons per-shot damage (though the JA-11 and the C-14 beat and match it respectively). And even though the burst chewed up significant ammo, the damage of 1d4x10 beat most (perhaps all) short burst damages in North America (for personal weapons, anyway). Again, the SAMAS rail gun inflicts 1d4x10 MD, and it was the top-of-the-line for power armor weapons. So you have infantry matching power armor, damage-wise.
And it just got worse with the RAR-C15, the version for power armor, because it inflicts 2d4x10 on a long burst, which is 2x the damage of the SAMAS rail gun (the North American equivalent of the same weapon).

BUT there were some balancing factors with the rocket weapons, at least. Shorter range than a rail gun, and a MUCH higher ammunition cost. Also, these weapons were the least likely to contaminate the North American setting, simply because the ammunition isn't manufactured there.
So I didn't have that much problem with the rocket weapons, although they were a significant increase in firepower.

I find that I am annoyed by the Amazon concept really.

Word.
For me, it's the implausible cliche of it all.
"So... we have amazons on the Amazon river. That's original. And likely, even. That's probably exactly what would happen in a post-apocalyptic future."

I'm just glad that CJ didn't write a book on The Grand Tetons.

[Killer Cyborg]

As for Glittergirl Armor #7...No, just...no...

Exactly.

[Giant2005]

Achilles is ridicle-dockle really. Why is South America's Genetic research so much in advance of either Europe's or North America's? Psychic Godlings!!! Even so, with the recent addition of MDC defenses to pretty much every master psionic, these aren't as bad as they used to be I guess, save for the aforementioned psionic godlings of course. The biggest issue I have is that some of them can activate an MDC field that grants 100 points per level, AND changes them into mid strength MDC creatures at the same time! (Serpentoid: M.E. x5 +10 per level! Base M.E. 2D6+12, so 95+20 MDC per level total! Ick!) Most aren't so tough, but they all do weird stuff, psionic flight, multi-mach psionic flight, psionic invisibility, etc. Still, other than the Serpentoid being more MDC than needed, and the Neo-Human/Psi-Demi-God, they aren't entirely unserviceable, but I would slow the flyers down a whole lot.

You have misunderstood the bolded part.
None of the mutants gain 100 per level on their forcefield, the one that gains the most is the Falconoid that gains 20 per level. I don't really know how you came up with the number 95+20 per level for the Serpentoid, but they only gain 10 per level.

[Akashic Soldier]

I really like the South America books, but it seems like I am the only one that doesn't have a problem with a lot of the stuff. I guess I only started playing around the time of Triax II so for me it was the one of the only books I really felt had a nice suite of stuff in it.

As for the reason the psychcs are superior, that is because animal psionics is vastly superior to normal psionics so they were working with better base material. At least that would be my bet. Plus, South America had a lot of leading research facilities that DIDNT go down because they had Glitterboys and GODS to protect them from demonic attack/invasion.

Also, Glittergirl looks cool. I can imagine what that thing looks like in action, and in my mind it looks awesome. If you guys are wondering how top-heavy power armor moves (and at such speed), I recommend checking out the later manga issues of Guyver, Bio-Boosted Armor (burst sprints, rocket boosted jumps/stabilizers).

[wyrmraker]

While I don't have too many problems with SA2 by itself, there is a single issue that keeps rearing it's ugly head.

Picture this (I can, because this really happened): A 3rd level party made up of a Ley Line Walker, an Operator, and a Full-Conversion Borg. Then one of your players (who has gone through 4 characters at this point because "they just don't fit in with the group") pulls out an Achilles Neo-Human with a bunch of standard SA2 gear. Are *you* going to be happy about that? Mind you, that was only after he tried to bring in something from Skraypers with the skills of a rogue scholar (nvm that he would have NO idea how to use the skills), and was very firmly shot down.

[Akashic Soldier]

While I don't have too many problems with SA2 by itself, there is a single issue that keeps rearing it's ugly head.

Picture this (I can, because this really happened): A 3rd level party made up of a Ley Line Walker, an Operator, and a Full-Conversion Borg. Then one of your players (who has gone through 4 characters at this point because "they just don't fit in with the group") pulls out an Achilles Neo-Human with a bunch of standard SA2 gear. Are *you* going to be happy about that? Mind you, that was only after he tried to bring in something from Skraypers with the skills of a rogue scholar (nvm that he would have NO idea how to use the skills), and was very firmly shot down.

That is a VERY just complaint and one I've found, not just with South America 2, but with a lot of Rifts products. However, it is a problem with the player. The thing that "stinks" about Rifts is that the Game Master has to be able to say NO. Otherwise, you end up with your grungy Black Market Cyberpunk game turned into a joke because one of the characters can fly at mach 7 and the other is a Cosmo Knight.

As with the Skyscrapers thing, you GM just has to swallow hard and say, "Dude, no! That will not fit in this game and it will take away too much from the other players in the party. Try again."

I have to do it ALL the time. It can be uncomfortable because as a GM I want to please my players, but I have a responsibility to the game/story AND everyone else playing in the game to make sure things stay fair.

Even so, I am sorry for your grievance. Please have a look at Nicky and Mendoza in my Pregenerated thread in my signature (both characters South American influence in them), do you think THEY are unreasonably powerful for the average Rifts group? (legit question).

[Nightmask]

While I don't have too many problems with SA2 by itself, there is a single issue that keeps rearing it's ugly head.

Picture this (I can, because this really happened): A 3rd level party made up of a Ley Line Walker, an Operator, and a Full-Conversion Borg. Then one of your players (who has gone through 4 characters at this point because "they just don't fit in with the group") pulls out an Achilles Neo-Human with a bunch of standard SA2 gear. Are *you* going to be happy about that? Mind you, that was only after he tried to bring in something from Skraypers with the skills of a rogue scholar (nvm that he would have NO idea how to use the skills), and was very firmly shot down.

Well as you note that's a problem with the player, a good player could make the Achilles Neo-Human fit just fine in that group.

[Nightmask]

@ Akashic: So animal psionics are better. Why are South American mutant animals all endowed with amazingly advanced power, while North American mutant Animals aren't really. I know Kill Cats are special, but they aren't nearly so special as Mach 2 flight, total invisibility, or having hundreds of MDC after a few levels of advancement. For example, the Falconroid type gets 200 MDC at 6th level...so a bit more than a few I guess...call it a handful instead. And of course this isn't even covering the cat mutants from Omagua either.

South American mutants are so much more powerful because SA focused more on developing mutant animals and genetic engineering unlike the US where its focus was on technology and while impressive Lonestar was behind the curve for some other nations.

Why does the human paratrooper have a 30 ME? There are Master Psionics that top out at 28...
What is a paratrooper doing working for the Black Market for a sufficient enough period of time to have made men options listed?

The paratrooper is a poorly written and given an over-inflated set of abilities based on serious fanboying over the idea. 'Oh wow they jump out of planes for a living they must have the ultimate will and be immune to all fear', which actually would require they be mentally unbalanced and quite insane to be so immune to fear (especially when people who routinely deal with things WAY more horrific and mind-warping don't manage anything close to immunity to fear/horror factor in spite of routine desensitization).

[Akashic Soldier]

@ Akashic: So animal psionics are better. Why are South American mutant animals all endowed with amazingly advanced power, while North American mutant Animals aren't really. I know Kill Cats are special, but they aren't nearly so special as Mach 2 flight, total invisibility, or having hundreds of MDC after a few levels of advancement. For example, the Falconroid type gets 200 MDC at 6th level...so a bit more than a few I guess...call it a handful instead. And of course this isn't even covering the cat mutants from Omagua either.

I'm not positive, but I've always ASSUMED that it was because North American mutants were a rediscovered technology and reinvented. While the mutants of South America have been improved upon and improved upon for a few hundred years without losing the technology.

Why does the human paratrooper have a 30 ME? There are Master Psionics that top out at 28...

Because he is a level-headed killer and I had a high roll so I put it on his mental endurance (since he can in his own mind warped justify killing babies to carry out his mission). Plus, if I recall, he got a +2 bonus from one of his Black Market abilities. I made him a while ago (he was the first guy I made), so I am a bit fuzzy.

What is a paratrooper doing working for the Black Market for a sufficient enough period of time to have made men options listed?

I'm pretty sure I covered that in his biography write up. Likewise, that is how the Black Market works. They get people with skills, indoctrinate them into their origination, and "made man" is the starting level tier.

How do you expect me to find this character to be reasonable in a North America campaign, when he is carrying not one, but two of the "problem child" weapons found in South America 2? Wait! I get it! This is me being trolled, right!!!

No man. I don't troll. I find it immature and a waste of everyone's time. The weapons he has are available on the open market, and the Black Market specfiicly ships weapons between regions. I based it off availability rather than location, the same way people often begin with Triax equipment even though they're not in the NGR. He simply sort out the best tool for the job, and purchased it. The ATL is best long-range single shot weapon I could find that had still reasonable availability.

As noted, I did not actually go too deeply into Nazca Line Mages. THE Nazca Line Drawings (all those named ones they used to thwart the Arkhons I mean) are insanely powerful, but the actual "spells" they do may or may not be. So, on that part I really can't tell.
(Shouldn't his Monster Drawing be of something...I don't know...South American-ish?)

I went through ALL the books to find what the HECK that thing on the actual picture MIGHT be. Since that is the picture of the line maker. The best I could find was the dragonhound and they are not uncommon. So it stood to reason it'd work. I remember doing that and it sucked. I think I spent like four and a half hours trying to find out what that THING in the picture MIGHT have been.

Uh-Oh! NA-LB1 Laser Bow...nope, I'm not going there...I let KC tackle that one, it seems to be a pet peeve of his.
Please explain the Vibro-Saber/Invisibility Ward concept to me. What turns invisible here, the sword or the person, and where did he get this at first level when he can't actually do an invisibility ward himself? Ah, wait, he can do the ward...how did this 0 Experience, 1st level character from a place with no prior exposure to wards get hold of no less than three of them...

The sword itself is invisible, this is covered a little more extensively under combat tactics. As for how he learned them, it is mentioned in the line maker that they can trade starting spells for wards in their O.C.C. write up.

I am going to have to take a closer look at these pregens chief...you must have different methods of generating characters than me...

I must. I tried to make each of the character "unique" and interesting without straying too far from their core concept. Honestly, I wasn't trying to troll you. I was genuinely asking you what you thought was reasonable/unreasonable.

As for the Laser Bow, its one of my favorite weapons in the game, so we will have to agree to disagree there. I'm not asking about pet peeves, or personal biases, I was asking about what you felt was reasonable. I tried to make sure each of the pregens were GOOD at what they do so that new players would be able to relatively easily achieve what they set out to do with that character, without "their thing" making other PCs obsolete or eclipsing other players. It was a bit of a balancing act at times, but I FEEL I did a pretty good job. However, the point of this though, the reason I even bought it up, was that I felt both these characters are impressive, have unique talents, and utilize South American book material without OVERPOWERING the average character as per the R:UE.

If the reason you don't like them is because of personal issues with the book or the material, than I guess I've got egg on my face and even my best effort isn't going to actually matter.

[Sureshot]

In the end GMs have to learn to say no. Yet at the same time in a diplomatic and respectful manner. Too much snark in saying no to something in the book can cuase too many issues. I'm still not seeing why having access to that tech is a negative towards the book. I may eventually want to run a Rifts game again. I know this time around to pretty much allow or disallow what I want in the game from the beginning. I always use the SA books as what examples of how MDC and weapons damage should have been from the start.

[flatline]

Yup. Definitely going to have to get SA1 and SA2. Sounds like lots of interesting stuff in there.

Based on the equipment in GMG, I had decided that SA1 and SA2 didn't look very interesting (the idea behind the tri-beam stuff is just plain silly) but perhaps I was too harsh.

Balance issues don't worry me much. My house rules for MD go a long way towards resolving that for free and I can always make further adjustments if things still seem out of whack.

--flatline

[Forar]

I found that when running a game I was pretty much always going to have a variety of power levels within the group, coupled further with each individual player's attentiveness, skill at using those abilities/powers, creativity and willingness to try things out. With a system that strives to keep characters mostly balanced, this can prove to show or permit power disparities where none would otherwise exist. And that's cool. Sometimes someone who's generally just there to hang out steps up, other times one of the system masters/experienced guys or gals will take a sub-optimal class/gear loadout and make it work because they like the mechanics, concept or simply want the challenge.

But when you get to a game like Rifts where there is a built in massive disparity already present book to book, this can be further heavily amplified within that group dynamic. Yes, it takes a GM who is willing to say no, but that is generally easier on the extreme ends. The setting presents such a plethora of abilities, gear, races, classes, etc that even setting a rough power level for one's quest/campaign at X and denying all the 2X and 3X stuff out there, you can end up waging a never ending back and forth about stuff around 1.5X or 1.1X and even little advantages/boosts add up.

Then you add in randomness of die rolls, and the balanced can become unbalanced, and the unbalanced can become a cluster...shenanigans.

Now, obviously some disparity is going to have to be tolerated. If it wasn't then we'd just play a boardgame where every person got the exact same pieces/powers/etc and let the dice/cards/strategy determine the victor(s), but you can only tell so many stories based on the complex background of Sorry before it's time to crack open an RPG again.

The questions of the thread is specifically why SA1/2 get a bad rep, and I think Gryphon did a fine job detailing some of the minutia that stands out. But overall, it's sort of both the feature and bug that is the Rifts setting, at least in my opinion/experience; you get a place where people can play Mind Melter Technowizard Atlanteans that pilot Glitter Boys armed to the teeth with TW and pure Tech upgrades who is backed by a team of Operators and other Wizards... but that can be immensely trying to deal with, so it's often easiest on everyone to aim a little lower. You CAN do these things, but if you do, either the GM needs to be at the top of their game to challenge the PC/party, or you sort of work out how they then proceed to conquer the world and lay waste to all that stands before them.

And for some that's the whole point.

So we end up with greyer areas of official stuff running slightly higher (or significantly higher) numbers and it's not a surprise that one person's "munchkin gear" is another person's "starter stuff".

All this talk is making me think I should go through the collection and see what I actually have left, at some point.

[flatline]

All this talk is making me think I should go through the collection and see what I actually have left, at some point.

Just this last week I did the same thing. I've got tons of dimension books and such, but only 4 world books, so now I'm compiling a list of world books to flesh out my collection a bit. Looks like SA1 and SA2 need to be on that list.

--flatline

[Forar]

At one point I owned every single Rifts book Palladium had released, along with a bunch of other stuff (most of the HU books, Systems Failure, Robotech, Nightbane, all the Rifters, etc, etc) but eventually hit a point where it was two shelves worth of heavy books I'd been moving around and not doing much with, so I ebay'd most of them. Kept around 25-30'ish that meant the most to me (gifts, books I really liked the fluff for, etc) and while I'm tempted to pare down a few, I doubt I'll ever part with my copy of Triax or Psyscape willingly.

[say652]

arkhons are a great alien menace. my favorite monster is the elall undead.

[Eashamahel]

Also, I think someone here already mentioned it, but South America was supposed to be the place where a nuclear exchange started everything, due to a few Glitterboys against a significantly larger conventional force. No one was really prepped for South America to be so far AHEAD of America tech wise, or to have come out so much better Post Apocalypse. With the incredibly resources available to NA, considering how long it took them to recover and where they were at, the significantly lesser resources of SA seem to have worked out great for them, considering they must have suffered all the same event as NA, with fewer resources, probably less infrastructure, and Vampires being a much larger threat to them.

Also, Indeed Rifts is often said to be not about Balance, because balance is subjective, but saying Luke Skywalker was not special in episode 4 is just ridiculous. He was a moisture farmer. Who could use the force. Who was an expert combat pilot. With great technical skills. He was a Psychic Man-at-Arms scholar. That's a good example of South America. Mutant animals that are Master Psychics who also have Juicer level abilities, ect.

[Akashic Soldier]

Right, before I respond to any of this, first things first Akashic.

I did NOT seriously mean the trolling comment, it was entirely in jest. I it didn't come across like that, then you have my abject apologies chief, no harm or character assassination was intended!

Right, now I will look these over and respond...

No problem man. I just didnt want you to think I was attacking you or anything.

[Killer Cyborg]

BTW, the laser bow? I recognize why KC hates it (I think it was KC, but I forgot now, if not, apologies and all that nice stuff!)

It WAS KC who hates it.
It will ALWAYS be KC who hates it.



Edit:
In part, because it would logically and easily lead to stuff like THIS.

[Nightmask]

@ Nightmask:
That is also a good observation, though I would have to closely re-read the South America books to know for sure there. Even so, how long did the dark ages last for South America et all? The NGR experienced that period to a degree, but dragged themselves out of it some time ago, as evidenced by some of their more impressive technical initiatives. Did South America pull themselves out of the mire of the dark ages that much faster? Even so, Lone Star is a more recent rediscovery, so I can still concede this point with grace chief.
I also understand that the Paratrooper is…let’s be diplomatic and call them an aberration among human OCCs then.

Well you have to consider that at least some areas of South America had protected enclaves pretty much from the star of the Dark Ages, particularly Omagua the City of Cats. So while they would have been on the bottom edge of tech in general (but superior in genetic engineering) they had the chance to develop from that point on and even with starts and stops had a better foundation than North America had. It also seems that genetic engineering technology was abandoned after the Cataclysm (in spite of how useful it was in ensuring a lot of people survived that wouldn't have otherwise) otherwise we'd have a wider range of super-mutants around.

Of course that does allow for the possibility of a PC group in South America finding a genetics facility that puts even Lone Star to shame (since Lone Star can't even create anything like what's in South America yet after decades of effort to learn its secrets). Or run up against an NPC (good or bad) who lucked into finding such a facility and has been creating his own mutants as servants or slaves.

@ Akashic: Agreed. Except Lone Star is a massive complex involving hundreds of scientists, a small mega cities worth of facilities as cutting edge as a North American power utilizing almost purely Golden Age gear can get, and literally thousands of aides and support personnel. Compare that against the statements that say that ALL of the strains of mutants listed in South America (1 & 2, and the Amphibians from Underseas apparently) were utterly viable AT the time of the Great Cataclysm. It wouldn’t be until sometime after 18 PA or so that they had established themselves securely enough to emerge as a full city state in their own right.
So South America managed to produce perfectly viable super animal mutants prior to the coming of the Rifts?! The woman that saved them from being eliminated during the Great Cataclysm apparently bore three of the fist Neo-Humans in her own womb. I can understand a non-US group making such advances, but why hasn’t the C.S. started to approach parity here? Either they aren’t that good yet, and might never be, or South American Mutant Animals are better than the game world should allow…much like a lot of other things in these two books.

The CS didn't have anyone who could begin unraveling Lone Star's secrets until Bradford, and he's only had a few decades or so at it. That he's done as much as he's pulled off so far is simply extraordinary. Even then though much of what he's managed like Dog Boys was apparently mostly or already done prior to the Cataclysm. South America on the other hand was way up there (much like England was in the position to have unleashed fabulous psionic technology if the Cataclysm hadn't happened as that was their main focus) with regards to genetic engineering, but after the Cataclysm doesn't seem to have retained or if it has it doesn't make use of that technology. Probably because the mutants have bad memories of their abusive creators and don't feel inclined to play God creating new life themselves.

[cyberdon]

Mmm laser bow... like Hank's from the Dungeons & Dragons cartoon...

Meh, I don't see the problem. People still use bows today, so might as well laserfy 'em.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qD8ZiFyQL1c

[flatline]

Mmm laser bow... like Hank's from the Dungeons & Dragons cartoon...

Meh, I don't see the problem. People still use bows today, so might as well laserfy 'em.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qD8ZiFyQL1c

I think the objection is to the idea that the amount of energy provided by your arm pulling the string back is somehow "MD energy" or enough energy to create a laser capable of 2d6MD (or whatever it is). Especially compared to the fact that a 2d6MD laser rifle only gets 20 shots off an e-clip which is reputedly got the energy of hundreds or thousands of car batteries (which is an incredible amount of energy).

A 2d6MD bow that ran off e-clips or something probably wouldn't have raised anyone's eyebrows.

Edit: found it! GMG p154 (don't have Spirit West, so I don't have the original material). it gets 20 shots off an e-clip or 1 shot off the energy generated by pulling the string back with a minimum PS of 12. So the contradiction is that the e-clip theoretically contains many orders of magnitude more energy than you can generate pulling on a string connected to a linear accelerator (or whatever kind of generator you're using) yet only gives 20 times the number of shots than your arm can give in a single pull.

If you allow arm strength to provide enough energy to power the laser bow, then simple math shows that an e-clip contains less energy than a modern NiMh AA cell does that you buy for $2/cell at Target.

--flatline

[cyberdon]

Ah gotcha. I'd house rule 'em to need e-clips solely.

[flatline]

Ah gotcha. I'd house rule 'em to need e-clips solely.

I think I'd rule that an e-clip is required for MD shots, but I have no problem with the arm pull powering a 1d6SDC laser suitable for hunting small game or harassing an unarmored opponent.

--flatline