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OK, as Kevin mentioned, me and several other forum personalities visited the palladium offices and got a chance to examine the artwork and discuss the nature of the upcoming Northern Gun books.

While several of the artworks had details that bothered me (robot vehicles with exposed cupolas) the vast majority of the artwork had me craving this book even more than before. Most notable to me was a updated Behemoth explorer and a construction vehicle that looked exactly like a futuristic update of any number of construction vehicles I have seen at work. Kevin described Northern Gun as a Detroit car show with Robots, the passion in which he described his post apocalyptic home town leads me to believe that these two books are going to be something special. possibly even better than Brandon Aten's Triax 3.

Well now that sounds like all manner of fun. The loads of new tech should be a good calm before the Megaverse in Flames storm.

Wait, there's a Triax 3???

Yeah, Triax 3 was released like 10 years ago.

Yeah, I'm not too keen on a lot of Palladium's recent artwork... but man, the Northern Gun art looks SWEET!

I also like that Kevin had a sense of humor about the crotch mounted gun on a certain robot vehicle, he defended its necessity (to deal with some of the robot's blind spots) while having a sense of humor about it.

I just wish they would get it out so we all can see the awesome.

rat_bastard wrote:I also like that Kevin had a sense of humor about the crotch mounted gun on a certain robot vehicle, he defended its necessity (to deal with some of the robot's blind spots) while having a sense of humor about it.

Hehe while very freudian really if you did have a giant bipedal robot the gun placement does make a lot of sense. Heck it may even make your opponents lose initiative by causing them to snicker repeatedly.

There are SOOOOOOO many other books that I need to work on before Triax 3 could even be a joking matter.

Agreed...I'm really looking forward to what industrial espionage I'll have to pull to keep up with Northern Gun.

rat_bastard wrote:I also like that Kevin had a sense of humor about the crotch mounted gun on a certain robot vehicle, he defended its necessity (to deal with some of the robot's blind spots) while having a sense of humor about it.

Thanks just hit the "not buy this book", really should have gotten rid of that horrid concept.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Yeah, I'm not too keen on a lot of Palladium's recent artwork... but man, the Northern Gun art looks SWEET!

yeah, well, that's probably because of chuck walton (you can find his deviantart account here, and then proceed straight into jealousy of Splicers fans because it's one of his favourite settings and therefore one that he does a lot of work on )

boxee wrote:

rat_bastard wrote:I also like that Kevin had a sense of humor about the crotch mounted gun on a certain robot vehicle, he defended its necessity (to deal with some of the robot's blind spots) while having a sense of humor about it.

Thanks just hit the "not buy this book", really should have gotten rid of that horrid concept.

You know, I never much minded the design, except that people couldn't quit tittering about it. To me, it just makes perfect sense to have some means of dealing with the traditional bane of heavy armored fighting vehicles; the bloody infantry who find blind spots to get close and do all sorts of nastiness to your AFV.
I mean, other than a gun turret, what other options do you have? More armor on the pelvic chassis than on the rest of the vehicle? Instep flamethrowers on the inner legs? Acid shower from above(THAT would get even MORE ribald remarks)?

boxee wrote:

rat_bastard wrote:I also like that Kevin had a sense of humor about the crotch mounted gun on a certain robot vehicle, he defended its necessity (to deal with some of the robot's blind spots) while having a sense of humor about it.

Thanks just hit the "not buy this book", really should have gotten rid of that horrid concept.

That just strikes me as an incredibly low threshold.

The 'crotch turret' on the NG Mobile gun, as well as on the CS Abolisher, always seemed totally reasonable to me and the people I played with when it came out. Now, i believe there is a T-Rex bot or something in South America with a more ridiculous crotch gun, but a t-Rex bot is already so far into ridiculous that I just try and forget the whole thing. Along with the mammoth-of-complete-idiocy.

Eashamahel wrote:The 'crotch turret' on the NG Mobile gun, as well as on the CS Abolisher, always seemed totally reasonable to me and the people I played with when it came out. Now, i believe there is a T-Rex bot or something in South America with a more ridiculous crotch gun, but a t-Rex bot is already so far into ridiculous that I just try and forget the whole thing. Along with the mammoth-of-complete-idiocy.

The hypno-mirrors were just...ludicrous, with shades of Pokemon-induced epilipsy hysteria. I just took the quad-leg chassis and kitbashed it to my own use.

rat_bastard wrote:

boxee wrote:

rat_bastard wrote:I also like that Kevin had a sense of humor about the crotch mounted gun on a certain robot vehicle, he defended its necessity (to deal with some of the robot's blind spots) while having a sense of humor about it.

Thanks just hit the "not buy this book", really should have gotten rid of that horrid concept.

That just strikes me as an incredibly low threshold.

If it is a "tank" history has shown to ALWAYS have infantry, or close weapon systems. Well maybe not always, but it had been true overall. The humanoid form would not need a gun like that. You would be able to out manuver normal foot troops. If something is fast enough to get that close and stay that close your in trouble anyway.

boxee wrote:[

If it is a "tank" history has shown to ALWAYS have infantry, or close weapon systems. Well maybe not always, but it had been true overall. The humanoid form would not need a gun like that. You would be able to out manuver normal foot troops. If something is fast enough to get that close and stay that close your in trouble anyway.

"Let's just sit down on that damn cyborg!"
#WHUMP#
"....mffphhhfff! ..."

taalismn wrote:

boxee wrote:[

If it is a "tank" history has shown to ALWAYS have infantry, or close weapon systems. Well maybe not always, but it had been true overall. The humanoid form would not need a gun like that. You would be able to out manuver normal foot troops. If something is fast enough to get that close and stay that close your in trouble anyway.

"Let's just sit down on that damn cyborg!"
#WHUMP#
"....mffphhhfff! ..."

Everything has a weakness, but yes they could be rough.

I am most looking forward to the civilian/wilderness vehicles that are supposed to be included.

At first I too thought the guns placed in the crotch are a joke. Eventually though it makes sense. Is it funny yes. Does it make sense to protect a potential blind spot on a robot/power armor. Hell yes. Still lets be glad it's just a gun and not a turret plus gun.

Sureshot wrote:At first I too thought the guns placed in the crotch are a joke. Eventually though it makes sense. Is it funny yes. Does it make sense to protect a potential blind spot on a robot/power armor. Hell yes. Still lets be glad it's just a gun and not a turret plus gun.

...Or a firefighting spray cannon?

Hot IR Smoke droped from upper thighs gives 10' high hot smoke covers legs. Spikes on lower legs to discourage attack.

I have now read the description of the "Gunbot" Robot Killer in the latest rifter and my optimism is somewhat diminished. It looks like the devastator all over again. While I don't want to add to the power creep the weapons systems on this vehicle are laughably weak, this is a two story tall, 15 ton walking gun that does mid range laser rifle damage with infantry weapon range. If this was chipwell there might be an excuse but this Is Northern Gun, and this is not acceptable.

rat_bastard wrote:I have now read the description of the "Gunbot" Robot Killer in the latest rifter and my optimism is somewhat diminished. It looks like the devastator all over again. While I don't want to add to the power creep the weapons systems on this vehicle are laughably weak, this is a two story tall, 15 ton walking gun that does mid range laser rifle damage with infantry weapon range. If this was chipwell there might be an excuse but this Is Northern Gun, and this is not acceptable.

Yea I know what you mean, the weapon damage on mechs, over 10 feet tall are the same as for powered armor.

I'm real curious about damage levels. I'd like to see a good variety so maybe there are some that don't hit as hard for whatever reason.

rat_bastard wrote:I have now read the description of the "Gunbot" Robot Killer in the latest rifter and my optimism is somewhat diminished. It looks like the devastator all over again. While I don't want to add to the power creep the weapons systems on this vehicle are laughably weak, this is a two story tall, 15 ton walking gun that does mid range laser rifle damage with infantry weapon range. If this was chipwell there might be an excuse but this Is Northern Gun, and this is not acceptable.

Oh well. Hopefully their is some decent background info on NG. I am not as interested as I once was in the new equipment. I get that they don't want to add power creep. Yet now the absurd fear of giving proper damage values to newer equipment is getting absurd. So fielding new yet underpowered equipment is going to put NG back on top again. Yeah right.

I really am not wanting another equipment book. We had triax 2 and naruni 2 already. Triax at least had some story to it, but it was 80% equipment and new mech designs. And a laser with kick...

Looking at my Winter 2012-13 Catalog, I want the upcoming titles from there:
Splicers sourceboks, Sourcebook: Sovietski, Secrets of the Atlanteans, Rifts: The Dark Woods, Rifts: Delta Blues.
There's also a Coalition States: Heroes of Humanity sourcebook, which is apparently dependent on information from Megaverse in Flames...
Also a Voodoo book for the Dark Woods/Delta Blues stuff, which will probably be in limbo forever at best, much like China 3.

But yay, more equipment.... so much it's got to be split up in 2 books...

If the new equipment is broken in the same ways as the old equipment, that's fine by me; I can just use the same old fixes.

rat_bastard wrote:I have now read the description of the "Gunbot" Robot Killer in the latest rifter and my optimism is somewhat diminished. It looks like the devastator all over again. While I don't want to add to the power creep the weapons systems on this vehicle are laughably weak, this is a two story tall, 15 ton walking gun that does mid range laser rifle damage with infantry weapon range. If this was chipwell there might be an excuse but this Is Northern Gun, and this is not acceptable.

I am still waiting on mine to see how it looks.

J_Danger wrote:I really am not wanting another equipment book. We had triax 2 and naruni 2 already. Triax at least had some story to it, but it was 80% equipment and new mech designs. And a laser with kick...

Looking at my Winter 2012-13 Catalog, I want the upcoming titles from there:
Splicers sourceboks, Sourcebook: Sovietski, Secrets of the Atlanteans, Rifts: The Dark Woods, Rifts: Delta Blues.
There's also a Coalition States: Heroes of Humanity sourcebook, which is apparently dependent on information from Megaverse in Flames...
Also a Voodoo book for the Dark Woods/Delta Blues stuff, which will probably be in limbo forever at best, much like China 3.

But yay, more equipment.... so much it's got to be split up in 2 books...

You will be lucky to see some of those books by 2020.

Killer Cyborg wrote:If the new equipment is broken in the same ways as the old equipment, that's fine by me; I can just use the same old fixes.

I know KC. But damn would it kill Kevin to not give me more work as a GM. As well you think he learn after the Devastor I debacle to not do the same thing. Apparently not.

Sureshot wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:If the new equipment is broken in the same ways as the old equipment, that's fine by me; I can just use the same old fixes.

I know KC. But damn would it kill Kevin to not give me more work as a GM. As well you think he learn after the Devastor I debacle to not do the same thing. Apparently not.

I haven't seen the specific item we're discussing, so I can't really compare notes.

The Devastator didn't give me any trouble as a GM, though, simply because I never saw the need use the thing.

That is the problem, you want players to want to use the things, not write them off as a non-option because the guns don't match the power level.

Jorel wrote:That is the problem, you want players to want to use the things, not write them off as a non-option because the guns don't match the power level.

Nah. I just never ran any Triax games.

There is a preview of Northern Gun on RPGNow:
http://www.rpgnow.com/product/108545/Rifts-Northern-Gun-One-Advance-Preview

Killer Cyborg wrote:Nah. I just never ran any Triax games.

True. Yet imo they need to stop coming up with new equipment and nerfing the hell out of it. In my area a few gamers no longer want to play Rifts because of the wonky damage values. Preferring instead to play Battletech. Where the damage values makes sense. Jorel is correct in that players consider nerfed equipment as not worth taking because the damage values don't match the power level. Not to mention not in the mood to wait another 5-10 years to see a slight less nerfed version to show up in one of the books or Rifters.

Sureshot wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Nah. I just never ran any Triax games.

True. Yet imo they need to stop coming up with new equipment and nerfing the hell out of it. In my area a few gamers no longer want to play Rifts because of the wonky damage values. Preferring instead to play Battletech. Where the damage values makes sense. Jorel is correct in that players consider nerfed equipment as not worth taking because the damage values don't match the power level. Not to mention not in the mood to wait another 5-10 years to see a slight less nerfed version to show up in one of the books or Rifters.

Agreed.
But there's a LOT of stuff that they need to stop doing. Inappropriate damage levels is something that's been going on so long now that I don't consider it that big of a deal in the scheme of things.
Really, it's just a symptom of an overall lack of coherent rules for damage levels in the first place.

Panomas wrote:So question for all:

What would be the criteria to develop a fair mechanic concerning those things?
Or so they don't get out of hand.

I think there's not much that could be done now, short of rewriting the whole game.

I always though that it'd be nice if different energy types used different damage dice.
Like:
Lasers do d4s
Ion do d6s
Plasma does d8s
Particle does d10s.

The number of dice rolled per shot would be determined by how much energy the shot takes, with E-Clips holding a standard amount of energy.
A laser or ion beam could take 1 charge per die of damage, and plasma or particle could take 2 charges per die of damage.

Also, each energy type would have different range modifiers
Lasers +50%
Ions +0%
Plasma -50%
Particle -75%

The weapon type could provide the base range:
Pistol = 1,000'
Rifle = 2,000'
Cannon = 3,000'

Also, there could he a range of tech levels, with each level of tech decreasing size, weight, and efficiency of the weapon while increasing cost.
Something like a range of 1-10, with each level being a multiplier of a base cost, while reducing the size/weight by a certain amount or percentage per level.
So if you're dealing with level Tech Level 1, then you might have a cheap weapon that's bulky and inefficient.
If you're dealing with Tech Level 10, then you could have a weapon that does just as much damage, but fits in your pocket... and costs a heck of a lot of credits.

Basically, if the writers had a formula (or set of formulas) to work with, instead of just making up essentially whatever they wanted, things could be a lot more consistent.

Killer Cyborg, that is extremely similiar to a system I had some time ago, where you could just start at the top, select 'type', damage type, tech level, ect. It went for armour as well, using the old Rulebook armours as a basis. So when designing an area, it took little difficulty to figure out where they stood, and was a great system to make the much talked about 'knock-offs' of CS gear (or even between the Manistique Imperium and Northern Gun). I wish some time ago that the game designers had of been able to pull that together.

But yeah, at this point, it's all moot. Having a good system to use for yourself and your games is helpful, but hoping that some kind of system, with forethought, and consistency, is going to be applied to Rifts at this point is just not realistic.


As a funny aside, after getting a couple of new-to-RIFTS players into the game, one of them is really enjoying reading the books themselves, so I am giving her, book by book, a lot of my favourites to read through. Anyways, after a week of texts with questions about damage X, Range Y, MDC values, skills, ect, I finally told her after our last game session to just read the book, read the descriptions of the races, OCCs and monsters, and ignore the system info.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Panomas wrote:So question for all:

What would be the criteria to develop a fair mechanic concerning those things?
Or so they don't get out of hand.

I think there's not much that could be done now, short of rewriting the whole game.

I always though that it'd be nice if different energy types used different damage dice.
Like:
Lasers do d4s
Ion do d6s
Plasma does d8s
Particle does d10s.

The number of dice rolled per shot would be determined by how much energy the shot takes, with E-Clips holding a standard amount of energy.
A laser or ion beam could take 1 charge per die of damage, and plasma or particle could take 2 charges per die of damage.

Also, each energy type would have different range modifiers
Lasers +50%
Ions +0%
Plasma -50%
Particle -75%

The weapon type could provide the base range:
Pistol = 1,000'
Rifle = 2,000'
Cannon = 3,000'

Also, there could he a range of tech levels, with each level of tech decreasing size, weight, and efficiency of the weapon while increasing cost.
Something like a range of 1-10, with each level being a multiplier of a base cost, while reducing the size/weight by a certain amount or percentage per level.
So if you're dealing with level Tech Level 1, then you might have a cheap weapon that's bulky and inefficient.
If you're dealing with Tech Level 10, then you could have a weapon that does just as much damage, but fits in your pocket... and costs a heck of a lot of credits.

Basically, if the writers had a formula (or set of formulas) to work with, instead of just making up essentially whatever they wanted, things could be a lot more consistent.

I may have to adapt that to a Random Weapons Generation Table I'm working(off and on) on.
With your permission, of course.

taalismn wrote:I may have to adapt that to a Random Weapons Generation Table I'm working(off and on) on.
With your permission, of course.

By all means!

Killer Cyborg wrote:

taalismn wrote:I may have to adapt that to a Random Weapons Generation Table I'm working(off and on) on.
With your permission, of course.

By all means!

Thank you, good sir.
Now I just need the time to spend on it...

Northern Gun 1 & 2 look like a lot of fun; I personally can't wait to buy and read them, and since they'll be the last Rifts books that I purchase I really hope they turn out well. I have almost 60 Rifts books on my shelf and although I can no longer find a group to play with I still continued to purchase them whenever they are released, but after 20 years I can't justify buying them anymore. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for some real high-quality releases!

No doubt they should be a fun read. I suppose I can swallow my disgust at the wonky damage values yet again and enjoy both books.

Sureshot wrote:No doubt they should be a fun read. I suppose I can swallow my disgust at the wonky damage values yet again and enjoy both books.

More fun art, more funky hardware, more TOYS....

Twenty foot long walking gunbots that do less damage than infantry weapons designed by the same company, more mini missile madness.

rat_bastard wrote:Twenty foot long walking gunbots that do less damage than infantry weapons designed by the same company, more mini missile madness.

Didn't say they were GOOD toys...just toys.

I just have the "Main guns" do double damage to to units one step down or triple damage to units 2 steps down

Tanks/LRA
PA/GB
Human sized "targets"

While some weapons do double damage to things one step up(all HE/plasma missles, burst fireing rail guns, Plasma Rifles) or triple damage to things 2 steps up (small medium and long range he/plasma missles)

Granted I tend to treat missles diferently to start with. you would almost never fire one of my "AP" LRMs against power armor for example

KK "Warhead" (Very high velocity) Blast radis of 1m and 1D6 per D6 of damage from shock and fragmentation

MM 1D6X10 1000m Range

SRM Fixed max range modes (lose 1D6X10 and are -1 to hit per Km beyond "Max" range)

2D6X10 5 Km range
4D6X10 2 Km range

SRM Variable range modle

6D6X10 1Km Range, (looses 1D6X10 Per Km, Range penaty only Vs moveing targets beyond 1 Km)

MRM KK warheads (note usualy MRM KKs and LRM KKS are normaly only used against fixed targets, Speed of target penaltys apply at 10K intervals and per 10KPH the target is moveing as the missle is almost literaly moveing to fast for it to guide in on a moveing target, the Drop off in damage is due to loss of propelent mass and forward velocity due to atmospheric drag.


6D6X100 10KM Range
4D6X100 20kM Range
2D6X100 30kM Range
1D6X100 40Km Range
1D6X10 50Km Range (*this is not a error*)

LRM KK warheads

5D6X1000 20km
4D6X1000 30Km
3D6X1000 40Km
2D6X1000 50Km
1D6X1000 60Km
1D6X100 70Km (*this is not a error*)
1D6X10 80Km

HE-AP round Damage is Double/Triple/Quadruple of the Base HE missle to the target, Range is 1Km(MM)/10Mk(SRM)/100KM (MRM) futher(less warhead mass due to shape charge efect), and half the damge to the same blast radius as Base HE missle, AP bonus on crit

Fragmentation, Triple the blast radius and half the range of HE missle due to the weight of extra Inert material, no bonue to Damage Vs larger target due to being an Anti personell weapon.

Explosively formed penetrator 3x 4X 5X base HE damage Damage, Range is half (due to "fat" warhead) Explosive burst damage is half but at a standoff point from the target.

(remember damage from HE is 1X vs man size, 2X vs power armor and 3X Vs Large Robots and tanks)

In case your wondering, im one of thoes "you have PC scaled weapons, and weapons that are literaly special effects that are used to destroy the sceanery around the PCs" kind of GM. It would be very unusual (bluntly eitehr they would have to be very stupid or they would have to literaly chain themselves to a bunker full of high explosives that the Other guys have decided to hit with a volly or KK LRMs) for them to get targeted by anything as powerfull as a KK MRM

...or to put it another way, my guys survived a 100kt yeild nuke they inadvertantly aranged to be shot at a adult dragon that was literaly sitting 100 m away from them when they realised they had better make book into the tunnel they had just uncovered and shut the door. fun fact, the Dragon bairly survived and actualy managed to drag itself to its lair just as the group dug itself out....just in time to be finished off by the somewhat annoyed players who at least were molified that the Dragons horde payed for there losses and then some.