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They are a huge thread throughout the Rifts series

And are portrayed in varying lights and tones

But what really matters is your personal sentiments towards the coalition and how you feel about them

Are they a maniacal cult bent on destruction

Or are they humanity's last bastion of hope

What do you think?

Yes.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Yes.

Ahh the "yes" answer .
So I will to say Yes.

Personally I love the coalition

Even as a kid I thought the coalition had the sickest weapons and armor

However as a adult I envision being a human in a world where any MDC creature could spill out of a rift and literally vaporize you in seconds

It's almost like humanity is a endangered species

And I believe that the presence of the coalition gives humanity a fighting chance

If you saw your friends and family being slaughtered by magic, dbees, and demons I think you might appreciate what the coalition is doing

Prosek = Champion Of Humanity

Also SAMAS power armor in all its variant forms instantly makes me love the coalition as well

I love to hate them.

Love? Hate? Is there really any difference?

We love to hate them.
We hate to love them.


Because what's a weapons-heavy post-apocalyptic setting without a bunch of facist-themed sociopaths.cannon-fodder/stormtroopers to rely on for some quick drama, atrocity-ripped pathos, and angry target practice to fall back on?

If the Coalition didn't already exist in game, somebody would have had to invent them, just to have a Big Bad to kick(you may not be able to slay Cthulu with impunity, but you can mow down his cultists on a weekend).

SmilingJack wrote:Are they a maniacal cult bent on destruction

This.
In this case the "yes" option doesn't really apply as the other option (humanity's last bastion of hope) is inapplicable. Regardless of how you feel about the CS, there are other options so they couldn't be considered the "last".

They'll do until Triax rolls over and claims North America.

They've gotten too much ink, in my opinion. I neither love nor hate them though.

Giant2005 wrote:

SmilingJack wrote:Are they a maniacal cult bent on destruction

This.
In this case the "yes" option doesn't really apply as the other option (humanity's last bastion of hope) is inapplicable. Regardless of how you feel about the CS, there are other options so they couldn't be considered the "last".

Not too many other viable options.
I don't consider the Vampire Kingdoms, for example, to be a viable option. Yes, they keep humans alive... but not free.

Lazlo and other places have humans in positions of power, for now... but how many of those humans are mundanes?

The CS, if nothing else, has the sheer numbers to ensure that humanity remains viable on Rifts Earth.
Sure, they're doing things tragically wrong, but I don't think that the CS as a nation is past redemption. Their leaders are corrupt, but leaders can be replaced.

Skull Nazi's must die.

rat_bastard wrote:Skull Nazi's must die.

I'd watch that movie!

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

SmilingJack wrote:Are they a maniacal cult bent on destruction

This.
In this case the "yes" option doesn't really apply as the other option (humanity's last bastion of hope) is inapplicable. Regardless of how you feel about the CS, there are other options so they couldn't be considered the "last".

Not too many other viable options.
I don't consider the Vampire Kingdoms, for example, to be a viable option. Yes, they keep humans alive... but not free.

Lazlo and other places have humans in positions of power, for now... but how many of those humans are mundanes?

The CS, if nothing else, has the sheer numbers to ensure that humanity remains viable on Rifts Earth.
Sure, they're doing things tragically wrong, but I don't think that the CS as a nation is past redemption. Their leaders are corrupt, but leaders can be replaced.

I was more referring to nations such as the NGR, Japan or the Geofront.

To Continue, The Coalition's willful ignorance combined with their need to kick every supernatural anthill they encounter makes them one of humanities greatest threats. Every continent on earth except the newest is and the coldest is dominated exclusively by humans, The coalition is not the shieldbearer's for humanity they are a cult on one small part of the planet that might just screw things up for the rest of us that don't like being force fed stupid pills in our chocolate rations.

Giant2005 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

SmilingJack wrote:Are they a maniacal cult bent on destruction

This.
In this case the "yes" option doesn't really apply as the other option (humanity's last bastion of hope) is inapplicable. Regardless of how you feel about the CS, there are other options so they couldn't be considered the "last".

Not too many other viable options.
I don't consider the Vampire Kingdoms, for example, to be a viable option. Yes, they keep humans alive... but not free.

Lazlo and other places have humans in positions of power, for now... but how many of those humans are mundanes?

The CS, if nothing else, has the sheer numbers to ensure that humanity remains viable on Rifts Earth.
Sure, they're doing things tragically wrong, but I don't think that the CS as a nation is past redemption. Their leaders are corrupt, but leaders can be replaced.

I was more referring to nations such as the NGR, Japan or the Geofront.

The NGR has potential.

I dismiss Japan and Geofront because I think they're stupid.

I like having the pre-CWC CS as part of the campaign setting. In RMB, it was believable that the CS was merely one of a handful of regional powers and they just happened to be the first one described. It wasn't until later books (and regrettably advanced time lines) that the CS became the only significant power in NA. In my opinion, the CS should have remained small, or, even better, the different CS states should have instead been loosely affiliated rivals with all the political intrigue and backstabbing that implies.

As a player, the character classes that I prefer are, as a rule, antagonized by the CS as a matter of CS policy. So whether or not I like the CS, if the CS is part of the campaign, the CS will almost certainly be a bad guy (call me closed minded, but anyone who tries to kill me as a matter of policy usually ends up on my bad guy list). On the plus side, there is no faster way to accumulate wealth than to harvest CS equipment and to sell it in non-CS affiliated markets (like Phase World).

--flatline

Killer Cyborg wrote:

rat_bastard wrote:Skull Nazi's must die.

I'd watch that movie!

I would pay in to that kickstarter.

I Love the CS,as it is the SOLE force for humanity on the planet, I dismiss the NGR because lets face it, they exist in one of the least important places on Rifts Earth, Europe. Furthermore as much as some people may dislike it, pretty much any place not North America is trivial, and easily dismissed due to the Storylines focus on NA.

So focusing on the Rifts Storyline's primary, and most detailed location, lets review.

Free Quebec: With Atlantis on it's door step this nation is doomed to end very, very soon. No hope for humans here.

Lazlo: Ruled by a Dragon who 'Shares power' with mere mortals? Not to mention that it was to cowardly to stand up to either the Bugs, or the CS when Tolkeen was attacked? Oh yeah, this place is a beacon of hope for humans. I give it another five years and either the bugs have taken it, or Plato finally snaps and turns the city into his little playground. Either way the CS will have to destroy it for the good of humanity.

New Lazlo: As a city of Scholars it has potential, but nations aren't built by scholars and philosophers, they're built by Warriors. Easily dismissed, and even easier forgotten.

NG: A nation of profit hungry corporates? Oh yeah, there's a nation I wanna be a part of, something about Money is the root of all evil.....

MI: Take what I said about NG, and apply it here as well.

Pecos Empire: Ahh a land of Bandits, cut throats and thieves. Yeah, that's where I wanna raise kids.

Vampire Kingdoms: Oh you mean I can be a cow for a blood sucking demon? Oh, oh, oh, don't sign me up for that one.

Colorado Baronies: Ok, I'll admit, this place has some potential. No really it does. I can get on board this one. Well at least partially. Until the Indians, Simvan, or other demons in the west overrun the place.

Archie Three: Ohhhhhh, even better then being a slave cow for bloodsucking demons, I can be a drone slave to a insane computer? Awesome! Let's not do this.

Tundra Rangers: Isolated, and easily ignored, not much hope for saving humanity here.

So that leaves us with the CS. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. Is it close to perfect? Again nope. But as a human here I have certain rights, and comforts.

Plus it has the coolest gear!

I don't love or hate it, it's just a fictional item required as part of storytelling by providing an antagonist. The closest I come to hating anything related to the CS is when someone seems to show honest support for the beliefs and actions of the CS and attempt to justify it including to an RL degree. There are few things as much of a cause for concern than to see someone seeming to justify racism and genocide, either they sound like they're advocating for RL racism and genocide or they're trolling looking to get a rise out of people which isn't any better.

I don't hate them or love them, I play them as both antagonists and protagonists.

I see the CS as shades of grey, charcoal at the heart, but cloudy sky at the edges. I also don't think of them as 'Nazis'. Sure there are some elements in there, but for the most part I view the CS as the culmination of all the shameful and dark deeds of the US rolled into one regime. McCarthyism, Salem Witch Trials, the massacre of Natives (d-bees in this case), segregation (psychics and human mutants), slavery (mutant animals), and so on.

IMO, the CS doesn't do these things because it's 'evil', but because they feel it's necessary. Why? One, because the Rifts world IS an extremely dangerous place and often extreme measures need to be taken. Two, because they are being led by corrupt and evil men driven not only by hunger for power, but revenge for past (real and imagined) grievances.

Ravenwing wrote:Lazlo: ...Not to mention that it was to cowardly to stand up to either the Bugs,

Lazlo sent an army against the bugs.

I have my reasons for disliking the Coalition. But most of those reasons have to do with the fact that their government is based on a number of irrational premises.

1) All magic is bad, yet we have the Vanguard who wait in secret to rejoin us.

2) So paranoid, even their leaders don't know who their leaders are.

3) Where do all these guys in skull outfits come from? The population is impossible!

There are others, but those are the big three.

I think most people here have a Love-Hate feeling about the CS. For many different reasons and having the love and hate towards different things.

I like their tech, maybe steal a few deadboy armors and reverse the colors. So white body with black bones, would be a nice change of pace.
I do like the no neck design on some of their tech.

Balabanto wrote:I have my reasons for disliking the Coalition. But most of those reasons have to do with the fact that their government is based on a number of irrational premises.

1) All magic is bad, yet we have the Vanguard who wait in secret to rejoin us.

2) So paranoid, even their leaders don't know who their leaders are.

3) Where do all these guys in skull outfits come from? The population is impossible!

There are others, but those are the big three.

None of those three complaints make sense.

I gotta agree on #3...I don't get it at all.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Balabanto wrote:I have my reasons for disliking the Coalition. But most of those reasons have to do with the fact that their government is based on a number of irrational premises.

1) All magic is bad, yet we have the Vanguard who wait in secret to rejoin us.

2) So paranoid, even their leaders don't know who their leaders are.

3) Where do all these guys in skull outfits come from? The population is impossible!

There are others, but those are the big three.

None of those three complaints make sense.

They do in context. Read again, and look at what he is saying.
Vanguard is the CS magic secretly hiding in a place where they cant really hide.
Paranoid to the point that you never know if they will take you away in the night, think KGB.
The population numbers have been screwed, you cant have the setting where humanity is on the edge of being wiped out and have millions of people living in an advanced military state that can stand against every threat and always win.

I love them, they make excellent loot pinatas.

As a GM, I love them! Good villains, perfect authority figures, well armed and organized, but always with some bureaucratic reason to not chase the P.C.s to Mexico to punish them for their lastest outrage!

As a narrative reader, I have issues with their emphasis in the books. It feels like they are too adored by the writer, and while constant mention is given of the deplorable nature of their deeds, there is also some subtle admiration for them. But as I've read more of Kevin's works, I've come to see that this is just his style. He loves his villains as villains, and wants to make sure people see them as "not two dimensional."

AHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! Someone is wrong on the internet and I must fix it!!!

Ravenwing wrote:I Love the CS,as it is the SOLE force for humanity on the planet, I dismiss the NGR because lets face it, they exist in one of the least important places on Rifts Earth, Europe. Furthermore as much as some people may dislike it, pretty much any place not North America is trivial, and easily dismissed due to the Storylines focus on NA.

Interesting that you dismiss a country with twice the population, better tech and that won't send mom to a concentration camp for reading Harry Potter and the sorcerer's stone to her children.

So focusing on the Rifts Storyline's primary, and most detailed location, lets review.

Free Quebec: With Atlantis on it's door step this nation is doomed to end very, very soon. No hope for humans here.

Lazlo: Ruled by a Dragon who 'Shares power' with mere mortals? Not to mention that it was to cowardly to stand up to either the Bugs, or the CS when Tolkeen was attacked? Oh yeah, this place is a beacon of hope for humans. I give it another five years and either the bugs have taken it, or Plato finally snaps and turns the city into his little playground. Either way the CS will have to destroy it for the good of humanity.

One dragon sits on a council of people who could mostly slay dragons for fun. Also they led the freaking charge on the bugs, leaving tolkeen to go be chaotic retarded with the skull boys.

New Lazlo: As a city of Scholars it has potential, but nations aren't built by scholars and philosophers, they're built by Warriors. Easily dismissed, and even easier forgotten.

I forgot how the pyramids and the great wall where built by banging the dirt with swords.

NG: A nation of profit hungry corporates? Oh yeah, there's a nation I wanna be a part of, something about Money is the root of all evil.....

MI: Take what I said about NG, and apply it here as well.

I'm getting the distinct impression from Kev and the preview that it is more bot happy engineers than bean counters.

Pecos Empire: Ahh a land of Bandits, cut throats and thieves. Yeah, that's where I wanna raise kids.

Vampire Kingdoms: Oh you mean I can be a cow for a blood sucking demon? Oh, oh, oh, don't sign me up for that one.

there is a vampire kingdom where the humans are allowed their freedom and work with the vamps, its a false freedom but its a pretty safe place to live.

Colorado Baronies: Ok, I'll admit, this place has some potential. No really it does. I can get on board this one. Well at least partially. Until the Indians, Simvan, or other demons in the west overrun the place.

Note how you mentioned Indians as one of the reasons its not a good place for humans... Tell us how you really feel.

Archie Three: Ohhhhhh, even better then being a slave cow for bloodsucking demons, I can be a drone slave to a insane computer? Awesome! Let's not do this.
Or go about your life normally without ever knowing about the computer that keeps you safe.
Tundra Rangers: Isolated, and easily ignored, not much hope for saving humanity here.

So that leaves us with the CS. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. Is it close to perfect? Again nope. But as a human here I have certain rights, and comforts.

Plus it has the coolest gear!

The CS with their slaves,concentration camps, illiteracy and their secret police, freedom.

boxee wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Balabanto wrote:I have my reasons for disliking the Coalition. But most of those reasons have to do with the fact that their government is based on a number of irrational premises.

1) All magic is bad, yet we have the Vanguard who wait in secret to rejoin us.

2) So paranoid, even their leaders don't know who their leaders are.

3) Where do all these guys in skull outfits come from? The population is impossible!

There are others, but those are the big three.

None of those three complaints make sense.

They do in context. Read again, and look at what he is saying.
Vanguard is the CS magic secretly hiding in a place where they cant really hide.

That's not what he said.
IF that's what he meant, then he's wrong; there are plenty of supernatural creatures and stuff hiding in the Burbs.

Paranoid to the point that you never know if they will take you away in the night, think KGB.

Again, totally not what he said.
Also, no idea how that's supposed to be an "irrational premise."

The population numbers have been screwed, you cant have the setting where humanity is on the edge of being wiped out and have millions of people living in an advanced military state that can stand against every threat and always win.

a) Why not?
b) They don't always win.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

boxee wrote:The population numbers have been screwed, you cant have the setting where humanity is on the edge of being wiped out and have millions of people living in an advanced military state that can stand against every threat and always win.

a) Why not?
b) They don't always win.

Where exactly have the CS ever lost? Not individual skirmishes but against major threats, because I can't think of anything in the books where the CS has been shown as losing even against a majorly entrenched and powerful opponent with a range of things the CS shouldn't have remotely expected or been able to comprehend let alone conquer.

Honestly the other good human nations take away from lazlo, as a beacon of hope, it's just another town where everybody lives together to peace and harmony.
Sorry I love the area between a rock and hard place, and not sitting in the middle of flower fields.

Nightmask wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

boxee wrote:The population numbers have been screwed, you cant have the setting where humanity is on the edge of being wiped out and have millions of people living in an advanced military state that can stand against every threat and always win.

a) Why not?
b) They don't always win.

Where exactly have the CS ever lost? Not individual skirmishes but against major threats, because I can't think of anything in the books where the CS has been shown as losing even against a majorly entrenched and powerful opponent with a range of things the CS shouldn't have remotely expected or been able to comprehend let alone conquer.

Exactly.

Nightmask wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

boxee wrote:The population numbers have been screwed, you cant have the setting where humanity is on the edge of being wiped out and have millions of people living in an advanced military state that can stand against every threat and always win.

a) Why not?
b) They don't always win.

Where exactly have the CS ever lost? Not individual skirmishes but against major threats,

And there you go.
They lose plenty of individual skirmishes, just like anybody else.

And just like anybody else who's still standing, they haven't lost against a major threat.
I don't see how the CS being able to "stand against every [major] threat" and always win makes any less sense than when Lazlo does it, or any other world power that's still standing.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

boxee wrote:The population numbers have been screwed, you cant have the setting where humanity is on the edge of being wiped out and have millions of people living in an advanced military state that can stand against every threat and always win.

a) Why not?
b) They don't always win.

Where exactly have the CS ever lost? Not individual skirmishes but against major threats,

And there you go.
They lose plenty of individual skirmishes, just like anybody else.

And just like anybody else who's still standing, they haven't lost against a major threat.
I don't see how the CS being able to "stand against every [major] threat" and always win makes any less sense than when Lazlo does it, or any other world power that's still standing.

I think you're missing the point, individual battles for small units don't count. When people refer to 'has never been beaten' they're clearly referring to large-scale events like wars, and the CS never loses, even when it should, through Deus Ex Machina rather than because it plausibly should be able to. What victories others have are plausible due to the circumstances (like Triax pushing back the Gargoyles, no God having to look over them to fudge the numbers and hand them extra troops or other resources like a cheating AI), the CS wins 'just because'.

Nightmask wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

boxee wrote:The population numbers have been screwed, you cant have the setting where humanity is on the edge of being wiped out and have millions of people living in an advanced military state that can stand against every threat and always win.

a) Why not?
b) They don't always win.

Where exactly have the CS ever lost? Not individual skirmishes but against major threats,

And there you go.
They lose plenty of individual skirmishes, just like anybody else.

And just like anybody else who's still standing, they haven't lost against a major threat.
I don't see how the CS being able to "stand against every [major] threat" and always win makes any less sense than when Lazlo does it, or any other world power that's still standing.

I think you're missing the point, individual battles for small units don't count. When people refer to 'has never been beaten' they're clearly referring to large-scale events like wars, and the CS never loses, even when it should, through Deus Ex Machina rather than because it plausibly should be able to. What victories others have are plausible due to the circumstances (like Triax pushing back the Gargoyles, no God having to look over them to fudge the numbers and hand them extra troops or other resources like a cheating AI), the CS wins 'just because'.

Well if this was true there be no coalition equipment or personal sitting Atlantis in chains.

Nightmask wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

boxee wrote:The population numbers have been screwed, you cant have the setting where humanity is on the edge of being wiped out and have millions of people living in an advanced military state that can stand against every threat and always win.

a) Why not?
b) They don't always win.

Where exactly have the CS ever lost? Not individual skirmishes but against major threats,

And there you go.
They lose plenty of individual skirmishes, just like anybody else.

And just like anybody else who's still standing, they haven't lost against a major threat.
I don't see how the CS being able to "stand against every [major] threat" and always win makes any less sense than when Lazlo does it, or any other world power that's still standing.

I think you're missing the point, individual battles for small units don't count. When people refer to 'has never been beaten' they're clearly referring to large-scale events like wars, and the CS never loses,

Yes... never, in the history of Rifts, has the CS lost the single major war that they've been in, against a nation that has a total population numbering less than the CS's disposable cannon fodder.
That's an amazing track record.

even when it should, through Deus Ex Machina rather than because it plausibly should be able to.

That's just biased musings.

Let me put this up front: I don't like the Coalition. I find the whole Nazi slant disturbing. Specifically, I take great issue with their policies against literacy, their suppression of the study of history, and their system of cult-of-personality, totalitarian rule.

That said, I am a human supremecist. Earth is a human planet, and all other sentient species don't belong here. Humanity has many flaws, but for all our faults, I'd rather be ruled by a human than by some supernatural creature.

Humanity has regressed in the world of Rifts under the Coalition, but regression beats the extinction or enslavement. I'd rather live under the oppression of the Coalition than under the whips of the Splugorth, the bites of the Vampire Kingdoms, the swarms of the Xiticix, or the "enlightened rule" of the dragons of Lazlo.

Since I would choose to live in the Coalition, and since they beat back the above-mentioned threats, I must say that I support the Coalition States. They are far from perfect. They are in desperate need of a regime change, and their attitudes about reading and history are wrong beyond the point of stupidity, they are a bit too trigger-happy when it comes to pushing out the D-Bees, and I think they should take a more practical (though still careful and tightly-controlled) approach to magic and psionics. Even with their problems, I would back them over any alien power. Thus, I must say that I do support the Coalition.

If I inherited the rule of the Coalition from the Prozeks, I'd institute a literacy requirement. I'd transition the government into a representative republic. I'd establish a strong public library system.

I'd create an agency to regulate and exploit magic and psionic powers for the Coalition's use. I would build pyramids on all nexus points and all unconnected ley lines, and heavily fortify each pyramid. I'd find ways to magically induce rain in the southwest and Mexico, to drive off the vampires. I would deport all D-Bees in CS territory to Lazlo, and open up trade relations with Lazlo. I would recognize Lazlo's autonomy as a D-Bee reservation, provided they fight the xiticix threat. I would try to get the Tundra Rangers, the Megaversal Legion, and the New Navy to join the CS, or at least coordinate their activities and share intelligence with Coalition forces.

I would establish policies encouraging people to spread out over controlled territories and settle new territories instead of crowding into heavily-fortified cities and their burbs. I would require all males of an apporpriate age to be reserve soldiers, and I would issue basic weapons and equipment to any of them willing to move out and settle into the country.

Then I'd retire and let the Coalition take it from there.

Of course, when I take the perspective of a D-Bee, all of this changes.

Mack wrote:

Ravenwing wrote:Lazlo: ...Not to mention that it was to cowardly to stand up to either the Bugs,

Lazlo sent the bugs dinner.

Fixed.

To me its all about the numbers, the coalition changed by hand-wavium. Their wins are hand-wavium. If they were the struggling nation fighting monsters and aliens, and saving people it would be better. However the disposable population thing is stupid beyond compare. Cannon fodder does not fit the game in that there are too few humans to just throw away people.
Once you screw the game by adding millions to the population it no longer is the same setting.

Hotrod wrote:Let me put this up front: I don't like the Coalition. I find the whole Nazi slant disturbing. Specifically, I take great issue with their policies against literacy, their suppression of the study of history, and their system of cult-of-personality, totalitarian rule.

That said, I am a human supremecist. Earth is a human planet, and all other sentient species don't belong here. Humanity has many flaws, but for all our faults, I'd rather be ruled by a human than by some supernatural creature.

Uh no, Earth has a lot more native sentient species to it other than humans, including dragons, were-creatures, and those red giants listed in South America to name a few. General genocide and mutual 'we want to be the only ones' and likely lower birthrates on the parts of the non-humans and a little too much creative bloodthirst on the part of humans let humanity propagate to become the most dominant species but is is by no means just theirs. I'd also rather be ruled by and live around the more compassionate and caring being whatever its species than insist that just because he's human he must be better. Stalin was human and I certainly wouldn't want to be living under the rule of someone like him, or Pol Pot, or Hitler.

I love the CS women (General loni kashbrook is a total babe).

boxee wrote:To me its all about the numbers, the coalition changed by hand-wavium. Their wins are hand-wavium. If they were the struggling nation fighting monsters and aliens, and saving people it would be better. However the disposable population thing is stupid beyond compare. Cannon fodder does not fit the game in that there are too few humans to just throw away people.
Once you screw the game by adding millions to the population it no longer is the same setting.

The CS has always been that way, since SB1 anyway.
The millions weren't added; they were always there.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

boxee wrote:To me its all about the numbers, the coalition changed by hand-wavium. Their wins are hand-wavium. If they were the struggling nation fighting monsters and aliens, and saving people it would be better. However the disposable population thing is stupid beyond compare. Cannon fodder does not fit the game in that there are too few humans to just throw away people.
Once you screw the game by adding millions to the population it no longer is the same setting.

The CS has always been that way, since SB1 anyway.
The millions weren't added; they were always there.

When did the CS war machine become such a monstrous proportion of the total population? RMB gave no indication of it.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

boxee wrote:To me its all about the numbers, the coalition changed by hand-wavium. Their wins are hand-wavium. If they were the struggling nation fighting monsters and aliens, and saving people it would be better. However the disposable population thing is stupid beyond compare. Cannon fodder does not fit the game in that there are too few humans to just throw away people.
Once you screw the game by adding millions to the population it no longer is the same setting.

The CS has always been that way, since SB1 anyway.
The millions weren't added; they were always there.

When did the CS war machine become such a monstrous proportion of the total population? RMB gave no indication of it.

--flatline

Dog Boys making up 10% of the 14-24 million people in CS territory was mentioned in SB1, p. 12-13.
As of SB1, there were only 500 Full Conversion Borgs in the CS, and less than 1,000 Partial Conversion Borgs, with plans to triple or quadruple that number for the campaign against Tolkeen.
SB1, p. 21, mentions The Coalition States are fairly secure and possess unrivaled military supremacy, which indicates that their army is quite sizable.
But I can't find any hard overall numbers, nor any mention of a strict percentage of the population being in the military in SB1.
So that probably comes in later, in CWC.

I don't know that it's a "monstrous" proportion, though, for a military nation surrounded by enemies.
IIRC, 10% of the CS's population that's in the military.

Compare to North Korea today:
Total population is 24,554,000.
They have 1,106,000 active military personnel, which is roughly 4.5% of their population.
But they also have Reserve personnel numbering 8,200,000, which means that 33% of their population are in the military reserves; a full THIRD of the population.
For a total of 37.5% of their overall population being in the military in some capacity or other.

Considering the incredible technological advantages that the CS has over North Korea, and the increased incentive to have a standing army to fend off active attacks, not to mention their plans to eventually conquer North America, I find it completely plausible that 10% of the CS population would be active military personnel.

flatline wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

boxee wrote:To me its all about the numbers, the coalition changed by hand-wavium. Their wins are hand-wavium. If they were the struggling nation fighting monsters and aliens, and saving people it would be better. However the disposable population thing is stupid beyond compare. Cannon fodder does not fit the game in that there are too few humans to just throw away people.
Once you screw the game by adding millions to the population it no longer is the same setting.

The CS has always been that way, since SB1 anyway.
The millions weren't added; they were always there.

When did the CS war machine become such a monstrous proportion of the total population? RMB gave no indication of it.

--flatline

yup and Europe and Japan are depicted with different tech levels too.

Hotrod wrote:I'd create an agency to regulate and exploit magic and psionic powers for the Coalition's use. I would build pyramids on all nexus points and all unconnected ley lines, and heavily fortify each pyramid. I'd find ways to magically induce rain in the southwest and Mexico, to drive off the vampires. I would deport all D-Bees in CS territory to Lazlo, and open up trade relations with Lazlo. I would recognize Lazlo's autonomy as a D-Bee reservation, provided they fight the xiticix threat. I would try to get the Tundra Rangers, the Megaversal Legion, and the New Navy to join the CS, or at least coordinate their activities and share intelligence with Coalition forces.

Interesting, the Pyramid is a non human magic almost exclusively held by the enemies of humanity, how are you getting it? Also the Megaversal legion is half alien and the New navy is run by supernatural creatures. It seems inconsistant with your goals.

I would establish policies encouraging people to spread out over controlled territories and settle new territories instead of crowding into heavily-fortified cities and their burbs. I would require all males of an appropriate age to be reserve soldiers, and I would issue basic weapons and equipment to any of them willing to move out and settle into the country.

Any particular reason you are jeopardizing humanities future with that bit of sexist policy? Cutting your potential recruits in half like that seems counter productive.

rat_bastard wrote:

Hotrod wrote:I'd create an agency to regulate and exploit magic and psionic powers for the Coalition's use. I would build pyramids on all nexus points and all unconnected ley lines, and heavily fortify each pyramid. I'd find ways to magically induce rain in the southwest and Mexico, to drive off the vampires. I would deport all D-Bees in CS territory to Lazlo, and open up trade relations with Lazlo. I would recognize Lazlo's autonomy as a D-Bee reservation, provided they fight the xiticix threat. I would try to get the Tundra Rangers, the Megaversal Legion, and the New Navy to join the CS, or at least coordinate their activities and share intelligence with Coalition forces.

Interesting, the Pyramid is a non human magic almost exclusively held by the enemies of humanity, how are you getting it? Also the Megaversal legion is half alien and the New navy is run by supernatural creatures. It seems inconsistant with your goals.

Good questions! In the case of pyramid technology, it was originally presented with True Atlanteans, who themselves are human, and who abhor the state of Rifts Earth today, a state for which many of them feel responsible. I don't think it would be that much of a stretch to find a True Atlantean Stone Master sympathetic to my cause. All it would take is one.

The New Navy's Sea Titans are close enough to be tolerable, in my book. As for the Megaversal Legion, that would be more difficult. I didn't say it would be a sure or easy thing to get them to work together with the CS, but such a relationship would be worth the effort.

rat_bastard wrote:

Hotrod wrote:I would establish policies encouraging people to spread out over controlled territories and settle new territories instead of crowding into heavily-fortified cities and their burbs. I would require all males of an appropriate age to be reserve soldiers, and I would issue basic weapons and equipment to any of them willing to move out and settle into the country.

Any particular reason you are jeopardizing humanities future with that bit of sexist policy? Cutting your potential recruits in half like that seems counter productive.

Another excellent question. It's a question of short-term tactical advantage vs long-term strategic priorities.

Women are definitely capable on the battlefield of Rifts. One could make the argument that they offer some advantages, particularly for piloting aircraft and power armor, since they have lower body mass and higher tolerance for G-forces. Certainly, I wouldn't bar females from volunteering for any part of military service.

The CS is not facing any large-scale threats of annihilation like the NGR, so they don't need full militarization of their society. This allows for a more long-term approach. Demographics is destiny. That's why the Xiticix are such a threat, and would remain so even if they learned to be more tolerant.

My rationale for requiring males to serve as reserve soldiers is based on reproductive biology. Frankly, dudes are more expendable. While having a father around is a good and important thing, women play a far more extensive and time-consuming role with gestation and feeding. A singe male can reproduce with many females. In the long run, the population will grow faster if military-aged women are cranking out the next generation, not blazing away with a plasma cannon on the front lines.

The goal is to re-take the wilderness and move out from the cities. That takes population growth and empowerment.

I'm a huge fan of the Coalition as an idea. I agree with a lot of what Hotrod said and think that earth belongs to the native creatures.

I'm not a fan of their practices though. I think literacy, freedom and transparency of government is important. Also a little diplomacy here and there goes a long way...just sayin'.

Not as far as black ops, but it goes a long way.

I'm basically hoping for the Emperor to abdicate to his son, then die of a scary "d-bee" disease (that his son infects him with) then to have Joseph II die in a very real, actually accident...then his young (10-12 year old) son would be the heir, he gets guided by a general who isn't a complete clown and he turns the CS around (after having to battle politically with detractors who want to seize power of course, all while fighting a war with something nasty that jumps on the percieved weakness in the leadership, because you can't have enough chaos on Rifts Earth).