Forums of the Megaverse®

Im playing a small game ( two players) we have a battle mage and me the shifter.

Im lv3 so is she(battle mage) we are , long story short i just made a pact with an elder power that my gm is rulling to be a god of knowledge.
So hes letting me pick the 8 spells lv 3 through lv 13.
Im pretty sure i want talisman and annihilation
Any suggestions for my other 6 spells.

Side not my gm hates when you go for the ill sit around and make and sell talismens for a couple months to become rich.
As he says do you guys want to play agressive banker or explorers/adventures.

Anyhow im thinking my the scroll making one, summon storm, and the ecm spell.
But id like to hear your top 6 spell suggestions.
Perferably and why.

Zamion138 wrote:Im playing a small game ( two players) we have a battle mage and me the shifter.

Im lv3 so is she(battle mage) we are , long story short i just made a pact with an elder power that my gm is rulling to be a god of knowledge.
So hes letting me pick the 8 spells lv 3 through lv 13.
Im pretty sure i want talisman and annihilation
Any suggestions for my other 6 spells.

Side not my gm hates when you go for the ill sit around and make and sell talismens for a couple months to become rich.
As he says do you guys want to play agressive banker or explorers/adventures.

Anyhow im thinking my the scroll making one, summon storm, and the ecm spell.
But id like to hear your top 6 spell suggestions.
Perferably and why.

Magic.. yeess... spells! Spells! Hoody-Hoo SPELLS!

Sorry, started to get carried away.. but when a character actually gains spell knowledge that they're not having to empty their wallets for seems to be a rarity anymore.

I'm assuming that this is limited strictly to the "standard" invocation list.. if I'm wrong, and you're allowed to expand into the more "specific" branches of magic, like necromancy, temporal, ocean, etc, (which is all completely justifiable, if this is a deity of knowledge) please, correct me, and I'll modify my suggestion.

Now, I would like to point out that before you go "oooo.. I want this spell, and that spell, and oooo look at that!" consider the big question. Will you have the PPE to cast them? I don't know how much time your game spends on/near ley lines, but unless it's a lot, spells like Talisman and Summon & Control Storm are going to cost you a lot of PPE. Is that PPE you can really afford? Talisman, if you have a nice enough GM, maybe he will let you do in "down time", but that only matters if you have enough PPE to even do it. And, FYI, Annihilate is a level 14. If you're limited to 3-13, it's out. I'm listing 10 spells below. I don't know what you have, and one of them I think might already be on the shifter list. Also, if something doesn't suit your tastes.. etc etc....

Lvl 11
Firequake: nice little AOE spell that pretty much guarantees (they have to make a dodge each round, and they have penalties) they will take damage each round, while you get the hell out of there.

Energy Sphere: I typically like it better than talisman. The only disadvantage is the duration. Of course, if you have the opportunity, it can be a hell of a lot more powerful, too.

LVL 10
Warped Space: 15 seconds.. a full round to plan and prepare. May not seem like a lot, but then you look at the other possible effects, it can turn out REALLY nicely.. as long as you prepare for possible bad side effects (like no magic blasts). Still, most effects are going to greatly benefit the mage.

Super-Healing: Why you ask? It's not usable on yourself, true.. but all those supernatural minions of yours? Keep them alive, keep them healthy. Keep healing them, they're less likely to want to rip your eyeballs out and use them to play miniature golf...

*Summon Shadow Beast (I'm not sure if you already get this as a Shifter or not.. and I'm too lazy to go the 15 feet and grab my RUE right now). 'Nuff said. And, as a shifter, I believe this only costs half PPE, right? Or am I wrong on that?

Magic Warrior: Does this need an explanation?

LVL 9
Desiccate the Supernatural: Really, sooner or later, something's bound to turn on you...

LVL 8
*Sorcerous Fury: LOVE THIS SPELL.. but, make sure that if you use it, you're going to win.. Because when you come down off that high, man you are CRASHED. It's even nicer if you have some of those other spells listed inside of it, but seriously, you don't need them. The freebie lightning bolts is pretty freakin awesome. The BEST spells are if you have area effect "spells of destruction". You DO need the GM to do some pre-approvals, though. Exact wording is "and similar spells of destruction", so make sure to verify with him if a spell meets that criteria in his mind.

Expel Demons: all lesser supernatural creatures go away, and a chance with greaters...but, it makes all lessers go away. THAT is the important part.

LVL 7
Mental Shock: Nice little one on one spell, and gives them a penalty to save..


I could add a LOT more, but then, I like magic....

Depending on what your GM allows, there are quite a few extremely useful spells in Fleets of the Three Galaxies. Cosmic Armor is awesome.

Goliath Strongarm wrote:

Zamion138 wrote:Im playing a small game ( two players) we have a battle mage and me the shifter.

Im lv3 so is she(battle mage) we are , long story short i just made a pact with an elder power that my gm is rulling to be a god of knowledge.
So hes letting me pick the 8 spells lv 3 through lv 13.
Im pretty sure i want talisman and annihilation
Any suggestions for my other 6 spells.

Side not my gm hates when you go for the ill sit around and make and sell talismens for a couple months to become rich.
As he says do you guys want to play agressive banker or explorers/adventures.

Anyhow im thinking my the scroll making one, summon storm, and the ecm spell.
But id like to hear your top 6 spell suggestions.
Perferably and why.

Magic.. yeess... spells! Spells! Hoody-Hoo SPELLS!

Sorry, started to get carried away.. but when a character actually gains spell knowledge that they're not having to empty their wallets for seems to be a rarity anymore.

I'm assuming that this is limited strictly to the "standard" invocation list.. if I'm wrong, and you're allowed to expand into the more "specific" branches of magic, like necromancy, temporal, ocean, etc, (which is all completely justifiable, if this is a deity of knowledge) please, correct me, and I'll modify my suggestion.

Now, I would like to point out that before you go "oooo.. I want this spell, and that spell, and oooo look at that!" consider the big question. Will you have the PPE to cast them? I don't know how much time your game spends on/near ley lines, but unless it's a lot, spells like Talisman and Summon & Control Storm are going to cost you a lot of PPE. Is that PPE you can really afford? Talisman, if you have a nice enough GM, maybe he will let you do in "down time", but that only matters if you have enough PPE to even do it. And, FYI, Annihilate is a level 14. If you're limited to 3-13, it's out. I'm listing 10 spells below. I don't know what you have, and one of them I think might already be on the shifter list. Also, if something doesn't suit your tastes.. etc etc....

Lvl 11
Firequake: nice little AOE spell that pretty much guarantees (they have to make a dodge each round, and they have penalties) they will take damage each round, while you get the hell out of there.

Energy Sphere: I typically like it better than talisman. The only disadvantage is the duration. Of course, if you have the opportunity, it can be a hell of a lot more powerful, too.

LVL 10
Warped Space: 15 seconds.. a full round to plan and prepare. May not seem like a lot, but then you look at the other possible effects, it can turn out REALLY nicely.. as long as you prepare for possible bad side effects (like no magic blasts). Still, most effects are going to greatly benefit the mage.

Super-Healing: Why you ask? It's not usable on yourself, true.. but all those supernatural minions of yours? Keep them alive, keep them healthy. Keep healing them, they're less likely to want to rip your eyeballs out and use them to play miniature golf...

*Summon Shadow Beast (I'm not sure if you already get this as a Shifter or not.. and I'm too lazy to go the 15 feet and grab my RUE right now). 'Nuff said. And, as a shifter, I believe this only costs half PPE, right? Or am I wrong on that?

Magic Warrior: Does this need an explanation?

LVL 9
Desiccate the Supernatural: Really, sooner or later, something's bound to turn on you...

LVL 8
*Sorcerous Fury: LOVE THIS SPELL.. but, make sure that if you use it, you're going to win.. Because when you come down off that high, man you are CRASHED. It's even nicer if you have some of those other spells listed inside of it, but seriously, you don't need them. The freebie lightning bolts is pretty freakin awesome. The BEST spells are if you have area effect "spells of destruction". You DO need the GM to do some pre-approvals, though. Exact wording is "and similar spells of destruction", so make sure to verify with him if a spell meets that criteria in his mind.

Expel Demons: all lesser supernatural creatures go away, and a chance with greaters...but, it makes all lessers go away. THAT is the important part.

LVL 7
Mental Shock: Nice little one on one spell, and gives them a penalty to save..


I could add a LOT more, but then, I like magic....

Do NOT learn Dessicate The Supernatural! Its on the shifter spell list of free ones you can pick up from leveling.

I generally like Talisman, Energy Sphere, Sorcerous Fury, Remove Curse, Magic Net, Carpet of Adhesion as 6/8 spells I'd pick.

I wouldnt bother at all with Annihilate at all. Too PPE intensive. Better as a TW one-off item than a spell you might cast.

Talisman and Create Magic Scroll should be no-brainers.

Having a scroll of Annihilate in your back pocket can be a life saver, so I wouldn't write off Annihilate.

Negate Magic and Sorcerous Fury are handy in Talismans. Giving a talisman of Sorcerous Fury to minion lets them cast it on themselves so that you don't have to expose yourself to any risk or deal with the side effects.

Purge Other is one of the best spells in the game. If you need to purge yourself, give a scroll of Purge Other to an ally.

Id Alter Ego is probably the most powerful information gathering spell in the game.

Swap Places is probably the most dangerous offensive spell in the game.

Remove Curse is nice to have. So is Mystic Portal.

Anyways, without knowing your play style, the only spells I can recommend unconditionally are Talisman and Create Magic Scroll. Those two spells open up a world of possibilities that nothing else can match.

--flatline

flatline wrote:Talisman and Create Magic Scroll should be no-brainers.

Having a scroll of Annihilate in your back pocket can be a life saver, so I wouldn't write off Annihilate.

Negate Magic and Sorcerous Fury are handy in Talismans. Giving a talisman of Sorcerous Fury to minion lets them cast it on themselves so that you don't have to expose yourself to any risk or deal with the side effects.

Purge Other is one of the best spells in the game. If you need to purge yourself, give a scroll of Purge Other to an ally.

Id Alter Ego is probably the most powerful information gathering spell in the game.

Swap Places is probably the most dangerous offensive spell in the game.

Remove Curse is nice to have. So is Mystic Portal.

Anyways, without knowing your play style, the only spells I can recommend unconditionally are Talisman and Create Magic Scroll. Those two spells open up a world of possibilities that nothing else can match.

--flatline

Except that a) annihilate is level 14, so will not be one of his options. And B) unless he is near a ley line a lot, talisman is going to not be that great. Neither would create scroll. The PPE cost is just too Damn high for a shifter.

Goliath Strongarm wrote:

flatline wrote:Talisman and Create Magic Scroll should be no-brainers.

Having a scroll of Annihilate in your back pocket can be a life saver, so I wouldn't write off Annihilate.

Negate Magic and Sorcerous Fury are handy in Talismans. Giving a talisman of Sorcerous Fury to minion lets them cast it on themselves so that you don't have to expose yourself to any risk or deal with the side effects.

Purge Other is one of the best spells in the game. If you need to purge yourself, give a scroll of Purge Other to an ally.

Id Alter Ego is probably the most powerful information gathering spell in the game.

Swap Places is probably the most dangerous offensive spell in the game.

Remove Curse is nice to have. So is Mystic Portal.

Anyways, without knowing your play style, the only spells I can recommend unconditionally are Talisman and Create Magic Scroll. Those two spells open up a world of possibilities that nothing else can match.

--flatline

Except that a) annihilate is level 14, so will not be one of his options. And B) unless he is near a ley line a lot, talisman is going to not be that great. Neither would create scroll. The PPE cost is just too Damn high for a shifter.

My bad on Annihilate.

No shifter or temporal wizard worth his salt will have any trouble arranging to have the PPE to cast Talisman or Create Magic Scroll. I haven't played since RUE came out so ley lines weren't even an option for me, yet by 3rd or 4th level my temporal wizards typically had dozens of talismans and scrolls created. Now that ley lines are actually useful, it should be even easier.

Also, you only need to create the Talisman once. Charging an existing Talisman is much cheaper.

--flatline

flatline wrote:No shifter or temporal wizard worth his salt will have any trouble arranging to have the PPE to cast Talisman or Create Magic Scroll. I haven't played since RUE came out so ley lines weren't even an option for me, yet by 3rd or 4th level my temporal wizards typically had dozens of talismans and scrolls created. Now that ley lines are actually useful, it should be even easier.

Where did he get the PPE without the ley lines? Sacrifices? You're talking a BASE of 500. Sure, you COULD create it, and then set it aside until your PPE regenerates to imbue the spells. So we'll look at that. For arguments sake, we'll give a PE of 30. Sound fair? And I'll max every roll along the way...
A Temp Wiz gets 2d4*10+70+PE. This means, at level one, we're at 180. 320 to go.
2d6 Per level. 12 per level. 320/12=26.6 levels, which means you need an INCREASE of 27 levels. You're now level 28.

Ley lines were useful before RUE. But really, without ley lines, the only ways to get the PPE for talsiman are:
A) High level *and I mean HIGH level (see above)
B) Sacrifice(s)* If you're not evil, this option is out, obviously
C) Having creatures that donate PPE *The most likely for a shifter, I'd think.
D) Stealing PPE (something that I don't think all classes have the ability for)
E) Having other PPE batteries (which if they're storing this much PPE, I'd probably rather have them than the talisman!)

Also, you only need to create the Talisman once. Charging an existing Talisman is much cheaper.

The problem with a Talisman as a PPE battery, it's only 30 PPE, and it costs you 60 (those are refills). Unless you have a crapload of them, that's not usually going to be helpful. If I'm in a fight that's already caused me to go through 200+PPE, I'm not counting on another 30.
As a spellholder, it's a one trick pony, and is going to cost you the spell PPE plus 50 for each charge (again, refills), which means for expensive spells, you're not going to be charging it very often. For example, that Talisman of Sorcerers Fury actually is 360 PPE to refill all 3 charges. Or 240 for those three charges of Negate Magic. Sure, they CAN be useful, but it's more practical to get TW items or just regular magic items that do it.

Of course, this is all up to the playstyle of the player, and the personality of the character. One of the things about magic in PB is that there is just a wide diversity, very rarely do you get two casters of the same OCC that are exactly alike.

Goliath Strongarm wrote:D) Stealing PPE (something that I don't think all classes have the ability for)

And this is how it is done without ley lines. Heck, it can even outperform the RUE beefed up ley lines once you hit mid level (but it's more involved, so ley lines are still easier). Unfortunately the rules for absorbing PPE from the unaware was left out of RUE, but it's clearly explained in RMB.

A small group of mages standing on a crowded street or in the subway can easily produce a Talisman every couple of minutes. I've posted an analysis of this at least twice here in the forums. When I get home, I can probably find an old post (or just do the math again).

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Goliath Strongarm wrote:D) Stealing PPE (something that I don't think all classes have the ability for)

And this is how it is done without ley lines. Heck, it can even outperform the RUE beefed up ley lines once you hit mid level (but it's more involved, so ley lines are still easier). Unfortunately the rules for absorbing PPE from the unaware was left out of RUE, but it's clearly explained in RMB.

A small group of mages standing on a crowded street or in the subway can easily produce a Talisman every couple of minutes. I've posted an analysis of this at least twice here in the forums. When I get home, I can probably find an old post (or just do the math again).

Except the difficulty depends entirely on which main book you're using. RUE doesn't even have the option for drawing PPE without a person's knowledge anymore. There's with consent, or without consent. Without consent, they have to be made aware of what you're doing. In another setting, or using the old RMB, without their knowledge was completely an option (and IMO, still is! I think it was an editing screwup)

Even then, while "every few minutes" would be theoretically doable, the logistics is arguable.. For the sake of this, we'll have EVERYONE ignore the group of people who are standing around watching people, acting suspicious for hours on end.. yeah, noone's noticing that, right?

Average human adult has 6 PPE. You can draw HALF. So 3PPE average, per target. We'll say your mage is level 5 (you said by 3rd of 4th level, he had dozens of talisman and scrolls. This bumps him up!)

But they'll save on a 12+. Which means 45% are going to save, BEFORE you count in any bonuses. And you're looking at roughly 4.63% of the population that are going to have a high enough PE (2.778% to roll a 16, 1.389% 17, .463% for an 18), plus anyone that has a bonus from another reason (OCC, item, etc). May not seem like much, but when you're talking about hanging around for a while, it adds up. We'll call it a 5% total for a round number. Sound fair? So now, 50% are going to save.

So if you figure that 2 people per level of experience (RMB). If you're level 5, that's 10. Since 50% are going to save, you're looking at 5 people at a time. Which makes it 15 PPE average per "pull". If you do this twice per round, that's 30 PPE per round. So that 's 17 rounds to cast a Talisman. Yes, it could be done "in a few minutes" (4 minutes and 15 seconds, average) by each mage, assuming you have the constant flow of people. Peak Hours might be great, but really, there's a lot of the SAME PEOPLE standing around- and you can't hit the same target again.

That's also assuming that you're GM is going to allow "twice a round" since it requires concentrating on your targets. Hell, if he allows ONCE a round (up to 8.5 minutes average ), that's still more generous than I'd rule it. I'd rule that it takes 2 rounds to pull off each pull (17 minutes average).

That's also assuming that noone gets freaked out by the people who are staring at groups of people at a time, hanging around the subway/mass transit/etc, and then casting a spell every few minutes. Law enforcement doesn't start to get worried about the guy who's just hanging around. AND, best of all- you don't try to hit a target that's going to know what's going on.

Also remember that this requires concentrating on your targets. Not exactly easy to do in a busy area like a subway platform or crowded corner. In fact, damn near IMPOSSIBLE. Your best bet would be more like at a theater, or the food court at the mall, where people are going to be pretty stationary.

So, is it theoretically POSSIBLE? Yes. Logistically speaking, is it LIKELY? No. Honestly, I'd say MAYBE once a week, during like a weekend or something, when you can get a large group that's going to be stationary. Because the other side of it all (along the subway lines is) with all that moving around- make sure you're not targeting someone you already got, because now you're wasting time, and it's going to take even longer.

I found an earlier post where I demonstrated the basic idea. The only significant thing your analysis and my analysis disagree on is how often you can draw PPE from those around you. Since you can draw PPE as part of casting a spell and as per RUE you can cast a spell every attack, my calculation assumes you can draw PPE for each attack/melee you have.

Note that in the below post, I assume that casting Talisman takes 30 seconds. Apparently I hadn't realized that RUE allows Talisman to be cast in 3 actions rather than 2 melees as per RMB so my analysis in the last paragraph is slightly sub-optimal.

--flatline

Ley lines are okay, but if you want to play with serious PPE, go to the mall, subway, or other densely populated area, preferably in a dimension that doesn't know anything about magic so you aren't competing with other magic users (this is the true power of Dimensional Portal which your temporal wizard automatically gets at level 1).

RUE left it out, but grab your copy of RMB (or HU2 or any other palladium book that includes rules for the PPE based magic system) and look up "Drawing PPE without one's knowledge" (p162 in RMB). Essentially, you can draw half of someone's PPE without them knowing assuming they don't know how to use their own PPE and fail to save vs magic (12+). You can draw from 2 people per level, the range is 10 feet per level, and you can attempt to draw as many times as you have attacks.

So, go some place where lots of people will be walking past you (think the NY subway or any pedestrian street in a big city) and assuming only half the people make their save vs magic (which is slightly pessimistic since the average person does not have a +1 to save vs magic), you can expect to draw an average of 3.5 times your level in PPE every attack. If you have 4 attacks per melee, then that's 14 PPE per melee at level 1, 28 PPE per melee at level 2, 42 PPE per melee at level 3, etc. It gets even better at level 4 and above since you gain more attacks from your HtH skill.

Now compare that to your measly 10 PPE per melee that you get from a Ley Line...

A 5th level caster with 5 attacks (any HtH skill is sufficient) should expect to draw at least 87.5 PPE every 15 seconds and be able to create a Talisman every 8 melees (6 melees to draw PPE, 2 melees to cast the spell). If you have three 5th level caster buddies who draw PPE while you're casting Talisman, they can provide you with the PPE you need to cast Talisman every 30 seconds!

Now you're playing with power!

--flatline

flatline wrote: you can expect to draw an average of 3.5 times your level in PPE every attack. If you have 4 attacks per melee, then that's 14 PPE per melee at level 1, 28 PPE per melee at level 2, 42 PPE per melee at level 3, etc. It gets even better at level 4 and above since you gain more attacks from your HtH skill.

[/quote]


Here's your flaw. You can target 2 people per level. At level 1, you'd average 3 PPE (2 people, 50% save, 6PPE average, you get half). Even if you have 4 APM (and the GM rules it takes one action), that's 12 PPE. At level 2, 24 PPE. Level 3=36. Yes, as you gain more APM, it would be even higher, but, it's not 3.5 times level in PPE. Really, its more like Level*3 in PPE every time. As you get higher, your numbers are getting more off.

Goliath Strongarm wrote:

flatline wrote: you can expect to draw an average of 3.5 times your level in PPE every attack. If you have 4 attacks per melee, then that's 14 PPE per melee at level 1, 28 PPE per melee at level 2, 42 PPE per melee at level 3, etc. It gets even better at level 4 and above since you gain more attacks from your HtH skill.

Here's your flaw. You can target 2 people per level. At level 1, you'd average 3 PPE (2 people, 50% save, 6PPE average, you get half). Even if you have 4 APM (and the GM rules it takes one action), that's 12 PPE. At level 2, 24 PPE. Level 3=36. Yes, as you gain more APM, it would be even higher, but, it's not 3.5 times level in PPE. Really, its more like Level*3 in PPE every time. As you get higher, your numbers are getting more off.

An adult human has 2d6 PPE. The expected result from 2d6 is 7, not 6. It is certainly within the prerogative of the GM to round up or down as he pleases in actual play, but for the purpose of this analysis, rounding is unnecessary. It is my experience that the GM does not attempt to round at all and simply does the calculation as I've shown above. But your experience may be different.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Goliath Strongarm wrote:

flatline wrote: you can expect to draw an average of 3.5 times your level in PPE every attack. If you have 4 attacks per melee, then that's 14 PPE per melee at level 1, 28 PPE per melee at level 2, 42 PPE per melee at level 3, etc. It gets even better at level 4 and above since you gain more attacks from your HtH skill.

Here's your flaw. You can target 2 people per level. At level 1, you'd average 3 PPE (2 people, 50% save, 6PPE average, you get half). Even if you have 4 APM (and the GM rules it takes one action), that's 12 PPE. At level 2, 24 PPE. Level 3=36. Yes, as you gain more APM, it would be even higher, but, it's not 3.5 times level in PPE. Really, its more like Level*3 in PPE every time. As you get higher, your numbers are getting more off.

An adult human has 2d6 PPE. The expected result from 2d6 is 7, not 6. It is certainly within the prerogative of the GM to round up or down as he pleases in actual play, but for the purpose of this analysis, rounding is unnecessary. It is my experience that the GM does not attempt to round at all and simply does the calculation as I've shown above. But your experience may be different.

--flatline

Agreed that GM mileage may vary. However, you can't get a half PPE from a person, only a whole number.

Goliath Strongarm wrote:

flatline wrote:

Goliath Strongarm wrote:

flatline wrote: you can expect to draw an average of 3.5 times your level in PPE every attack. If you have 4 attacks per melee, then that's 14 PPE per melee at level 1, 28 PPE per melee at level 2, 42 PPE per melee at level 3, etc. It gets even better at level 4 and above since you gain more attacks from your HtH skill.

Here's your flaw. You can target 2 people per level. At level 1, you'd average 3 PPE (2 people, 50% save, 6PPE average, you get half). Even if you have 4 APM (and the GM rules it takes one action), that's 12 PPE. At level 2, 24 PPE. Level 3=36. Yes, as you gain more APM, it would be even higher, but, it's not 3.5 times level in PPE. Really, its more like Level*3 in PPE every time. As you get higher, your numbers are getting more off.

An adult human has 2d6 PPE. The expected result from 2d6 is 7, not 6. It is certainly within the prerogative of the GM to round up or down as he pleases in actual play, but for the purpose of this analysis, rounding is unnecessary. It is my experience that the GM does not attempt to round at all and simply does the calculation as I've shown above. But your experience may be different.

--flatline

Agreed that GM mileage may vary. However, you can't get a half PPE from a person, only a whole number.

Very well, then if all targets with an odd amount of PPE have their absorbed PPE rounded down, then the math yields 3.25 PPE per level per attack. Lower than the 3.5 PPE that not rounding results in but still better than the 3 PPE that you suggested.

But even using the slightly pessimistic 3 PPE per level per attack, a 5th level mage expects to get 3 * 5 * 5 = 75 PPE per melee. He could still cast Talisman once every 2 minutes (34 attacks to absorb an expected 510 PPE and 3 attacks to cast Talisman for a total of 37 attacks which is 37/5 = 7.4 melees = 1.85 minutes).

And I'm totally ignoring the fact that children have more than 2d6 PPE, so unless there are no children where you're harvesting PPE, that would bring the expected value up some. This is a complication we always chose to ignore to help keep things simple. After all, there was no need to be greedy when even pessimistic calculations yield excellent results.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Goliath Strongarm wrote:

flatline wrote:

Goliath Strongarm wrote:

flatline wrote: you can expect to draw an average of 3.5 times your level in PPE every attack. If you have 4 attacks per melee, then that's 14 PPE per melee at level 1, 28 PPE per melee at level 2, 42 PPE per melee at level 3, etc. It gets even better at level 4 and above since you gain more attacks from your HtH skill.

Here's your flaw. You can target 2 people per level. At level 1, you'd average 3 PPE (2 people, 50% save, 6PPE average, you get half). Even if you have 4 APM (and the GM rules it takes one action), that's 12 PPE. At level 2, 24 PPE. Level 3=36. Yes, as you gain more APM, it would be even higher, but, it's not 3.5 times level in PPE. Really, its more like Level*3 in PPE every time. As you get higher, your numbers are getting more off.

An adult human has 2d6 PPE. The expected result from 2d6 is 7, not 6. It is certainly within the prerogative of the GM to round up or down as he pleases in actual play, but for the purpose of this analysis, rounding is unnecessary. It is my experience that the GM does not attempt to round at all and simply does the calculation as I've shown above. But your experience may be different.

--flatline

Agreed that GM mileage may vary. However, you can't get a half PPE from a person, only a whole number.

Very well, then if all targets with an odd amount of PPE have their absorbed PPE rounded down, then the math yields 3.25 PPE per level per attack. Lower than the 3.5 PPE that not rounding results in but still better than the 3 PPE that you suggested.

But even using the slightly pessimistic 3 PPE per level per attack, a 5th level mage expects to get 3 * 5 * 5 = 75 PPE per melee. He could still cast Talisman once every 2 minutes (34 attacks to absorb an expected 510 PPE and 3 attacks to cast Talisman for a total of 37 attacks which is 37/5 = 7.4 melees = 1.85 minutes).

And I'm totally ignoring the fact that children have more than 2d6 PPE, so unless there are no children where you're harvesting PPE, that would bring the expected value up some. This is a complication we always chose to ignore to help keep things simple. After all, there was no need to be greedy when even pessimistic calculations yield excellent results.

--flatline

You can hold up to three times your base PPE for your PE in minutes.
which means for the 500 PPE spell, your base needs to be 166.6 (repeating), rounding to 167. A Temporal Wizard COULD have that at the low levels, if he has good rolls for his PPE and a good PE (in theory, it's even POSSIBLE at level one, with max PPE roll and a PE of 17). AVERAGE rolls, however, he won't be doing this until he's around level 9-10. Seriously, do the math. If you routinely have characters that can do that, you routinely have higher than average PPE rolls. That is how the numbers crunch out.

For a SHIFTER (which is what the OP was talking about, and I sincerely apologize for us getting so far off topic, but, this DOES relate, in that it's the usefulness of the spell. Also, the OP is referring to level 3)...

PPE: 2d6*10+10+PE. Now, he's making a pact with a magic deity, so he gets a boost. I'll show that in the second set.. Statistically, his PE is either going to be 10 or 11. I'm going to use 10 for a nice round number.

2d6 (average 7)*10=70+10+10=90 PPE at level 1. Plus 2d6 (average 7) per level. He needs 11 more levels. So he's level 12 when he gets enough PPE to be able to draw/hold enough PPE to cast it.

Now, with the addition of a link with a deity of magic, he gets a bonus to his PPE. 1d6*10+40. Potentially a hundred points. Major game changer. Average of 70 or 80 (the 1d6 averages at 3.5, but unlike with multiple dice, there is no difference in probability.) Let's call it 80, for the high number.

Now, at level 1, we have 170! Congrats, you can cast the hold the extra PPE to be able to do it. THAT is the game changer for him, statistically speaking. But, if it's a low roll, and he only gets the 50 PPE from it, he's at 140. Which means he's still 27 shy. At an average of 7 per level, that's going to take him 4 additional levels, so until he's level 5 (and he's currently level 3).

Notice, I'm going average and statistically speaking.

Goliath Strongarm wrote:

flatline wrote:

Goliath Strongarm wrote:
Agreed that GM mileage may vary. However, you can't get a half PPE from a person, only a whole number.

Very well, then if all targets with an odd amount of PPE have their absorbed PPE rounded down, then the math yields 3.25 PPE per level per attack. Lower than the 3.5 PPE that not rounding results in but still better than the 3 PPE that you suggested.

But even using the slightly pessimistic 3 PPE per level per attack, a 5th level mage expects to get 3 * 5 * 5 = 75 PPE per melee. He could still cast Talisman once every 2 minutes (34 attacks to absorb an expected 510 PPE and 3 attacks to cast Talisman for a total of 37 attacks which is 37/5 = 7.4 melees = 1.85 minutes).

And I'm totally ignoring the fact that children have more than 2d6 PPE, so unless there are no children where you're harvesting PPE, that would bring the expected value up some. This is a complication we always chose to ignore to help keep things simple. After all, there was no need to be greedy when even pessimistic calculations yield excellent results.

--flatline

You can hold up to three times your base PPE for your PE in minutes.
which means for the 500 PPE spell, your base needs to be 166.6 (repeating), rounding to 167. A Temporal Wizard COULD have that at the low levels, if he has good rolls for his PPE and a good PE (in theory, it's even POSSIBLE at level one, with max PPE roll and a PE of 17). AVERAGE rolls, however, he won't be doing this until he's around level 9-10. Seriously, do the math. If you routinely have characters that can do that, you routinely have higher than average PPE rolls. That is how the numbers crunch out.

For a SHIFTER (which is what the OP was talking about, and I sincerely apologize for us getting so far off topic, but, this DOES relate, in that it's the usefulness of the spell. Also, the OP is referring to level 3)...

PPE: 2d6*10+10+PE. Now, he's making a pact with a magic deity, so he gets a boost. I'll show that in the second set.. Statistically, his PE is either going to be 10 or 11. I'm going to use 10 for a nice round number.

2d6 (average 7)*10=70+10+10=90 PPE at level 1. Plus 2d6 (average 7) per level. He needs 11 more levels. So he's level 12 when he gets enough PPE to be able to draw/hold enough PPE to cast it.

Now, with the addition of a link with a deity of magic, he gets a bonus to his PPE. 1d6*10+40. Potentially a hundred points. Major game changer. Average of 70 or 80 (the 1d6 averages at 3.5, but unlike with multiple dice, there is no difference in probability.) Let's call it 80, for the high number.

Now, at level 1, we have 170! Congrats, you can cast the hold the extra PPE to be able to do it. THAT is the game changer for him, statistically speaking. But, if it's a low roll, and he only gets the 50 PPE from it, he's at 140. Which means he's still 27 shy. At an average of 7 per level, that's going to take him 4 additional levels, so until he's level 5 (and he's currently level 3).

Notice, I'm going average and statistically speaking.

Fortunately, there's no reason that the mage has to do it alone. A single level 1 mage with a base PPE of 167+ is pretty rare, but two or more mages working together with a combined base PPE above 166 is extremely easy to do.

A Shifter can probably summon his assistant. My characters always worked with the other mages in the party to accomplish this goal (actually, we didn't know about the 3xbasePPE rule at first, so we had to play tricks involving Energy Sphere to be able to make the first few Talisman PPE batteries...the new rules sure make things easier).

--flatline

Moving away from that, does any one else have suggestions for 6 mor 3 to 13th lv spells to take.

I was thinking the switch places for sure, its so powerfull i can almost not pass it up.

I can't beleive no one's mentioned anti-magic cloud yet. it's been put to amazing use in two games i've played in. you'd be amazed at how much less threatening many greater supernatural beings become. Not to mention, if the GM plays them well, a great deal of fear should come into play. palladium makes large notes about how dragons and other supernatural beings eschew technology and are firmly convinced of the superiority of their innate magic and abilities. strip those away, and suddenly they know fear.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I can't beleive no one's mentioned anti-magic cloud yet. it's been put to amazing use in two games i've played in. you'd be amazed at how much less threatening many greater supernatural beings become. Not to mention, if the GM plays them well, a great deal of fear should come into play. palladium makes large notes about how dragons and other supernatural beings eschew technology and are firmly convinced of the superiority of their innate magic and abilities. strip those away, and suddenly they know fear.

I thought I had, but sure enough, I didn't.

Even after all these years, I'm still getting used to the idea that Anti-Magic cloud is no longer considered a spell of legend...

--flatline

Just an update, i took......
1. Create magic scroll.
2. Restore life.
3. Swap places.
4. Talisman.
5.antimagic cloud.
6.illusionary terrain.
7. Speed of snail.
8.locate.

Begin the mocking

Zamion138 wrote:Just an update, i took......
1. Create magic scroll.
2. Restore life.
3. Swap places.
4. Talisman.
5.antimagic cloud.
6.illusionary terrain.
7. Speed of snail.
8.locate.

Begin the mocking

Excellent choices. The only spell in that list that I would question is Speed of the Snail, but that doesn't make it a bad choice. It's just a preference thing.

--flatline

An amulet of speed of snail is pretty rugged i suppose, 3 uses 60ft range, drops them by a 1/3 on attacks and then some.
Trade places with target speed of snail them drop bombs and trade back, they are to slow to get away.

Zamion138 wrote:An amulet of speed of snail is pretty rugged i suppose, 3 uses 60ft range, drops them by a 1/3 on attacks and then some.
Trade places with target speed of snail them drop bombs and trade back, they are to slow to get away.

Talisman can't handle 9th level spells, but you can still make Speed of the Snail work for you when springing an ambush or in conjunction with Time Slip.

--flatline

Forgot the level...your right.
But yeah its usefull also in the im running around with a battle mage so she can soak some pain and i drop that on her worst enemy....hopefully before they take an interest in me