Taking two OCCs

[arouetta]

I was asked last night if it was possible to take two OCCs. Possible, yes, or Alchemists wouldn't exist. But I can't find mechanics for allowing a PC to do so.

So how would this be handled? Everything from both (including doubled skills), and experience points cut in half and divided between the two? Or would all those skills be overpowering? What if a skill is an OCC skill by both OCCs, would there be a bonus? Or would one OCC be predominant, but OCC related and secondary skills can be taken from both OCCs' available list? Or something else altogether?

The player was new and considering a Ranger / Noble combination, so not very overpowering, and ultimately decided not to right now, but since the topic may come up again in the future I would like to be ready with guidelines.

Thanks.

[Damian Magecraft]

By the book two OCCs at the same time is not possible.
But in the High Seas book there are rules for switching classes.
Basic run down:
You start as class A. Once you reach a minimum level (3 iirc) you may switch to class B. And so on.
I cannot recall if there is a limit to the number of class changes. But I would recommend that one be instituted.

[Goliath Strongarm]

High Seas, pg 10 is the spot you want. Here's a summary:

According to the book, it can be done only ONCE. But then, later on, it says "I don't suggest a third OCC because it gets funky and burdensome". So, which is it? Only once, or recommended only once? (but then, explain alchemists? Sloppy edit, IMO, and I'll state my house rules on it in a minute)

You can do it at any time. You freeze all skills and abilities at that level's advancement. Then, you add in the new OCC. If you decide it was a bad move, you can go back to the old OCC, but NEVER go back to the second one. EVER.

NEW OCC
Skills: only half the OCC related skills. Remember, OLD skills won't grow, so if you were low level, certain skills may be on your "let's take these again" list. Only the NEW version of the skill grows. Skills that are repeated get the HIGHER bonus from the two classes.

OCC Bonuses (initiative, strike, etc etc): use the HIGHER of the two OCCs. Don't add them together!

Experience: if you're in the same category (man-at-arms, man of magic, psychic) then standard. If you change to a different category, double the EXP required for each level.

Hit points as normal for gaining a level. Etc etc etc..

*************************************
My House Rules on it: (all clergy are situational dependant)
1) State the desired OCC. Find the teacher.
2) Freeze everything where it is.
3) Training time
A) If different category than before: Fighter-types: 1d4 years. Mages 1d8+2 years, psychics 1d4+2 years.
B) If same category than before: Fighter-types: 1d2 years. Mages 1d4+2 years, psychics 1d2 years.
Can be modified. Each category gets three stats. When averaged together, compare to the PP bonus chart. Each +2 is -6 months training time. If you have RUE that shows sub-par stats, every -1 is +6 months.

Fighters: IQ, PE, and PS. (IQ is your grasping concepts, PE is how much punishment your body can take each day, and PS is how well your muscles can do different tasks)
Mages: IQ, ME, and PE (IQ is grasping concepts. PE is the physical strain of constantly channeling PPE. ME is your mental strain strain. )
Psychics: IQ, ME, and ME (ME is doubly important for most psychics. Healers, if they wish, MAY substitute PE for any one of the stats.)


After completing the training time, characters must earn experience equal to level 2, and do a special quest. At that point, they start as a level 1 in the new OCC. Alternate to the quest is gaining experience equal to level 5.

(For those who get PPE, ISP, etc, if the OLD OCC gets it at a higher rate, they continue to earn it at that rate. IE, OCC1 gave 3d6 per level. OCC2 gives 2d6 per level. The character will ALWAYS earn 3d6. Why would they learn a WORSE system of something? Seriously)

Skills: half OCC related skills, and half the secondary skills as well. Bonuses for ALL skills come from the higher of the two OCCs. (even by category. if OCC1 gave 20% to all scholar skills, and OCC2 gives 10%, the PC will get 20%, even on ones selected under the new OCC. This continues their entire career)

Bonuses: whichever is higher between the two OCCs.

There is no limit to the number of times people can change, however, each time, add 6 months to the training time, and add a full level of experience required to start at level 1. (for third OCC, you would need to gain exp equal to level 3. Over time, there's a LOT of experience and levels you're missing out on).

[SmilingJack]

In my fantasy games I've allowed players to multi class by

Merging the stats and attributes of each occ together, ignoring duplicates, and taking the highest bonus between the two occs to be applied to the character

Truthfully if you're uncomfortable allowing dual classes say no, it's your game

Usually our other gm suggests just playing another character alongside the existing character in place of multiclassing

[drewkitty ~..~]

DM and GS have covered the basics nicely....so I will cover the not so basics.

Note about the High Seas changing OCC rules.
They only cover Job classes, not psychic classes, and not Racial Classes. (OCC's, PCC's, RCC's respectively as per the definition of the acronym words.) This is because with in PFRPG OCC's are just job classes. Not psychic classes nor class restricted to a single race.
Thus, if you are importing these rules to be used in the other settings you need to convert the Stylized class labels of that setting into their (real) un-stylized class labels, Before applying the rules to specific classes that are "according to the class text" are psychic classes or racially restricted classes.
Note: Some Races in Rifts, and some other places, have been mis-labeled as RCC's. I am not going to the why's and wherefores of this. Just noting it here.
-----------
The reason I say the above is that Kevin S. admitted that the class labels in RUE and post-RUE books have been stylized. I am not going to the why's and wherefores of the K.S's choice.

IMO the "stylization" of the class labels was as stupid choice, since it adds in dumb misconceptions into the rules. Yes, I am being blunt stating My Opinion about the choices made about stylizing the class labels instead of just choosing to use them as per the word meanings that make up said acronym labels. Because to state it otherwise it would loose the the essence of the opinion.
---------
BTS2 note: All the "PCC's" BTS2 are really psionic power categories. (If you doubt me, read the char creation mechanics in BTS2 with a critical eye about the details.) Thus are not covered by the High Seas changing OCC rules. Again, Kevin S. said the BTS2 "classes" are stylized in the same text he admitted to stylizing the RUE class labels in RUE.
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Please note that all of this was for the education of the uninformed newbs of the proper way to apply the PF HS changing OCC rules so they stay "In Context" with the rules set they were written for even if being used in the other settings. Not to cause a long blown out "argument"/"Discussion" about canon or not canon.....blah blah blah. We have done it before, and it does not need to be done again any time soon.

[Goliath Strongarm]

To add a caveat to my previous statements- some psychic classes (like the MM, and maybe others, not sure right this second), actually say "can not take multiple OCCs" under the class description. Homeruled, they can.. it's just NOT a smart idea.

[Damian Magecraft]

As a house rule on the subject of psychic classes I rule that you can change to the class but not from it.

[Goliath Strongarm]

As a house rule on the subject of psychic classes I rule that you can change to the class but not from it.

Oh, I let people go FROM it, but, there is a penalty- their powers are frozen at that level.. they don't advance. You were a 4th level mind mage? Congrats. Not only do you gain no more psychic powers, but the powers you DO have will never progress past third level in strength.

[The Dark Elf]

I was asked last night if it was possible to take two OCCs. Possible, yes, or Alchemists wouldn't exist. But I can't find mechanics for allowing a PC to do so.

So how would this be handled? Everything from both (including doubled skills), and experience points cut in half and divided between the two? Or would all those skills be overpowering? What if a skill is an OCC skill by both OCCs, would there be a bonus? Or would one OCC be predominant, but OCC related and secondary skills can be taken from both OCCs' available list? Or something else altogether?

The player was new and considering a Ranger / Noble combination, so not very overpowering, and ultimately decided not to right now, but since the topic may come up again in the future I would like to be ready with guidelines.

Thanks.

Are you playing 2nd edition?

[zyanitevp]

Also rules are given in the Rifts Conversion book

[drewkitty ~..~]

Also rules are given in the Rifts Conversion book

Which RCB?(There are 4 rifts conversion books.) What page?

Or are you talking about the text in the RCB1's that say Wizards and Diabolists can change to the TW OCC @ L3, w/old skills frozen?(page 28, RCB1, "Acquiring new skills" section)

Or in the "Average 20th century characters" section (page 36, RCB1) that say the chars can get juiced, MOM'ed, or borg'ed out and change to the associated OCC, w/o saying what the rules are for said change?

But then again this topic is about the canon for the PFRPG setting, so anything "rifts" has no bearing on PF canon. (That is unless a individual GM brings such rifts text into his or her game as a house rule.) So why bring up something from a setting that only has rules about changing to and from a handful of specific classes?
---------------------

In my humble opinion: Taking two OCCs at once might be a lot of fun; just add the experience points of both to what one needs to achieve to reach the next level, cumulate all the bonuses and wham!-Super fun new dual-character class-

As to having two OCC's at once idea. Out side the canon "you can't do it", such a char would be near par with the HU2 mega hero, so the Mega Hero's (or dragon's) would be the exp. table I would use for such a char.
If I was house ruling it for the game I was GMing, that is if I allowed it to start.

[Damian Magecraft]

On the subject of the player that expressed the desire to be a noble and a ranger...
Have him write up a ranger and say he is from a noble house...
Maybe give him 2 or 3 "courtly" style skills in place of an equal number of related skills.
Not every "combination" requires two classes.
Palladium characters are for the most part skill based not power based. Most secondary classes can be done as judicious skill selections.

[Damian Magecraft]

I won't allow someone to become a psychic if they were not one (PCC) to start with.

I would allow it as long as the player is willing to RP the trauma based catalyst I would require for a full fledged PCC.

[Goliath Strongarm]

I won't allow someone to become a psychic if they were not one (PCC) to start with.

I would allow it as long as the player is willing to RP the trauma based catalyst I would require for a full fledged PCC.

I would* allow people to gain psionics like this. Even becoming a PCC, they had to have some (even if it was only minor) to begin with. Of course, there will be trauma involved to "help" wake-up the other powers.

*edit: while on my phone, accidently said "won't", meant WOULD.

[Goliath Strongarm]

Minor was no different, major has some skill penalties. And in my houserules (as I stated these are before), I allow it. They will still be losing out on skills, as they change occ,not only do the psi ones have fewer skills, but he is also losing half on top of that.

PF isn't like BTS (iirc that's where it was) that ppe etc is burned up in the development of skills and psi, which is why you can't change. In fact, the PF book gives no reason. Only Thing that it even has that is under the specific occ. IMOthats not enough.,

And once again, I hate using these boards from my phone. Ughs

[Damian Magecraft]

Minor was no different, major has some skill penalties. And in my houserules (as I stated these are before), I allow it. They will still be losing out on skills, as they change occ,not only do the psi ones have fewer skills, but he is also losing half on top of that.

PF isn't like BTS (iirc that's where it was) that ppe etc is burned up in the development of skills and psi, which is why you can't change. In fact, the PF book gives no reason. Only Thing that it even has that is under the specific occ. IMOthats not enough.,

And once again, I hate using these boards from my phone. Ughs

I didn't mean to imply that i was questioning your house rule I was stating the logic behind mine.

And that logic makes sense.
Just as I was explaining the logic behind my reason.

[Prysus]

PF isn't like BTS (iirc that's where it was) that ppe etc is burned up in the development of skills and psi, which is why you can't change.

Greetings and Salutations. Beyond the Supernatural; First Edition (BtS1) had a game mechanic where you spent P.P.E. to gain psionics, and different psionics had a different P.P.E. cost. That game mechanic, I believe, only saw use in BtS1. The concept, however, remains in other settings, including PF2. For evidence ...

See page180, in the section "Individual P.P.E." The last few sentences actually address this.

Also see pages 157, 158, and 162 about the Psi-Sensitive, Psi-Healer, and Mind Mage. In their respective O.C.C. they have their "P.P.E." values listed, and more mention of it being expended to develop psionics. Note: Admittedly, the Psi-Sensitive and the Psi-Healer both still have "average" human P.P.E. levels. The "concept" of the burning off P.P.E. remains though.

Anyways, that's all for now. I'm fine with all the house rules and stuff going on here, I just wanted to clarify what the book said (due to the quoted text). Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Goliath Strongarm]

Note: Admittedly, the Psi-Sensitive and the Psi-Healer both still have "average" human P.P.E. levels. The "concept" of the burning off P.P.E. remains though.

What happens is that the P.P.E. energy is directed and used up in one way or another. This occurs as a person focuses on a particular area of interest, skill or occupation and could explain the concept of a "natural talent." A person's focus to develop a particular interest/skill/talent or physical attribute as he or she enters into adolescence is so strong that the potential psychic energy is channeled and spent on developing that specific area.

But, it's no more "gone" for a psychic, or person with tons of skills, or an assassin... it's really "gone" the same (although the Mind Mage has a bit more of it gone). If any of the others could become a magic user, a psychic should be able to as well. Sure, if you're talking a MM, maybe give a bit less PPE (I'd say roll as normal, but only get 75-90%).

As for changing TO a psychic.. the 'book' explanation still doesn't make any less sense for someone to stop or start ANY second class, including psychics. After all, if the PPE was "burned up" in the skills and stuff, how is that different than if it was burned up in psychic powers? Or vice versa

[drewkitty ~..~]

As to having two OCC's at once idea. Out side the canon "you can't do it", such a char would be near par with the HU2 mega hero, so the Mega Hero's (or dragon's) would be the exp. table I would use for such a char. If I was house ruling it for the game I was GMing, that is if I allowed it to start.

And here I Defined "What Viewpoint I was taking", before commenting.

[Prysus]

But, it's no more "gone" for a psychic, or person with tons of skills, or an assassin... it's really "gone" the same (although the Mind Mage has a bit more of it gone).

Greetings and Salutations. More or less true.

If any of the others could become a magic user, a psychic should be able to as well. Sure, if you're talking a MM, maybe give a bit less PPE (I'd say roll as normal, but only get 75-90%).

Actually, I'm not disagreeing. I'd let a psychic become a mage just as easily as a man of arms could become a mage.

Note: Just because I'm not disagreeing doesn't mean I don't see how the "concept" could blow up in your face. Psionics burn up P.P.E. in the development of psionics, right? If a psychic learned magic, increasing his/her P.P.E. pool, then he/she should (in theory) be able to burn up that P.P.E. too in order to develop more psionic powers. Of course, the same could be said for a Mercenary burning up P.P.E. to learn new skills and combat techniques. The concept is fine in theory, but could get messy fast in execution once multi-classing rules are included.

As for changing TO a psychic.. the 'book' explanation still doesn't make any less sense for someone to stop or start ANY second class, including psychics.

Mmm ... so-so true. For the record, I'd allow it (under the right circumstances). BUT! If we do things like turn to page 155 we see ...

Humans [snip] are either born with active psionics powers or not.

Let me repeat the key part of that: "born with active" ... born with and active. This means a human (and others) wouldn't really be born with "dormant" powers. You're either born with them active, or you don't have them.

Now, I think there's a lot of wiggle room in there, but I also realize that Palladium attempts to draw a pretty hard line on the subject. I'm not saying I agree with it, but I'm not ignoring that they put it there either. I think that's the main difference between our viewpoints.

After all, if the PPE was "burned up" in the skills and stuff, how is that different than if it was burned up in psychic powers? Or vice versa

It really isn't. If you look above, you'll see how I mention how messy this could get in execution. It's an interesting concept, but one that doens't work once you start implementing it.

Side note: People talk about how it doesn't make sense why psychics don't have more skills (since some powers should make it easier to learn). This could (in theory) be a result of the P.P.E. burning concept. Psionics cost more than skills (possibly), so by spending that P.P.E. on psionics they have less P.P.E. to develop skills. This could by why psychics are often shorted in the skill category, but practitioners of magic (with an abundance of P.P.E.) aren't. Just a random thought.

Anyways, I don't care enough about the whole multi-classing argument to really get into this. That's not why I posted. I posted because you made an inaccurate statement, which I wanted to correct/clarify. Though the mechanics are gone, the concept is still very much in PF2. Arguing the concept makes no sense doesn't have any bearing on whether or not the concept is there. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Goliath Strongarm]

Greetings and Salutations.

*****SNIP SNIP SNIP*****

Anyways, I don't care enough about the whole multi-classing argument to really get into this. That's not why I posted. I posted because you made an inaccurate statement, which I wanted to correct/clarify. Though the mechanics are gone, the concept is still very much in PF2. Arguing the concept makes no sense doesn't have any bearing on whether or not the concept is there. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Duly noted, and I stand corrected and chastised.. please, no more beatings. I swear, I'll be good this time!!!!!

[The Dark Elf]

Multiple OCCs is one of the reasons we play PFRPG over Rifts (or others). The main group of players Ive ran fro the last 20 years are all multiple OCCs;

a Wolfen Soldier, Priest, Pseudo Mind mage;
a Wolfen Palladin, Ranger, Holycrusader;
a Wolfen Mind Mage, Wizard, Diabolist;
a Troll Palladin, Longbowman, Ranger, Holycrusader.

Three Wolfen & A Troll (or the TWATs for short).

[Goliath Strongarm]

Any switch from a magic O.C.C. to a non-magic one, by the rules of magic; would totally nullify the characters ability to cast magic spells or use their former abilities. See Belief under the rules of magic for any of the Palladium Games.

Just because someone leaves a magic OCC doesn't mean that they stop believing.

Seriously, if someone stops working retail, and starts working at flipping burgers, do they stop believing in the department store they were in for a decade?

[The Dark Elf]

Multiple OCCs is one of the reasons we play PFRPG over Rifts (or others). The main group of players Ive ran fro the last 20 years are all multiple OCCs;

a Wolfen Soldier, Priest, Pseudo Mind mage;
a Wolfen Palladin, Ranger, Holycrusader;
a Wolfen Mind Mage, Wizard, Diabolist;
a Troll Palladin, Longbowman, Ranger, Holycrusader.

Three Wolfen & A Troll (or the TWATs for short).

If you have time can you detail how you do this? Or is it all straight as written in PFRPG? I'm curious to see what works for you and your group.

Just used the PFRPG rules. Only first edition around when we started and there was no cap on how many OCCs. Just need loads of xp and some roleplaying as to how the characters learnt the new profession or skills.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Any switch from a magic O.C.C. to a non-magic one, by the rules of magic; would totally nullify the characters ability to cast magic spells or use their former abilities. See Belief under the rules of magic for any of the Palladium Games.

Like this conversation!-

As of the MoM1 a mage that chooses to stop perusing magic changes to the "Half-Wizard" class. They retain what magic they had when changing "classes" but they no longer peruse the ways of magic to get more.

IOW, they don't stop "believing", they just stop having magic as their central reason for living & making a living.

Pan. what you are describing is when the char "has to" change jobs because for some reason they have lost their belief or ability to make magic.

Yes, the difference is story dependent.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Any switch from a magic O.C.C. to a non-magic one, by the rules of magic; would totally nullify the characters ability to cast magic spells or use their former abilities. See Belief under the rules of magic for any of the Palladium Games.

Just because someone leaves a magic OCC doesn't mean that they stop believing.

Seriously, if someone stops working retail, and starts working at flipping burgers, do they stop believing in the department store they were in for a decade?

If a Mage starts to just "flipping burgers" cause he had to 'make a living' he would probibly end up with some culinary spells (or spells related to the work he was doing) just because his most of his mind would be working on how he could do the job with magic while the other 1% was doing the job.

[Goliath Strongarm]

As to the changing jobs thing: Perhaps this is close to what I am saying... However the ability to utilize magic is much more than just a career choice. I would say (and this is how it is written for the most part throughout the books) that magic is more like a religion. Now pretend for a moment that this religion is true (or that it represents magic)...Sure you could know a lot of things about it; all the rituals, important figures, dogmas; but the bottom line to me for a religion and the devotee all boils down to belief or faith. If you don't have faith or you no longer believe; your not going to be praying at the dinner table anymore... (ie casting spells) These points are emphasized very strongly throughout the concepts of the Palladium Magic system; pretend that the magic sections are a discussing a religion (rather than just magic) and you'll see how close the two are related.

Just because he quits being a mage as his PRIMARY job doesn't mean he's swearing it off, or giving it up completely. This is why the books say that he is going to pay double exp for levels... he's still using his old skills and talents.

Seriously, he can still USE the magic- he's just adding to his list of talents and abilities, so not flexing the magical muscles enough to improve.. they don't degrade..

He BELIEVES... he's just furthering himself... your argument that he has to stop believing in order to pick up an new OCC (outside of magic users) makes NO SENSE....

[Damian Magecraft]

Ok try this on for size Panomas...
I have a vision for a character but that vision requires both multiple levels and classes to complete.
The vision is a magic using thief. More thief than mage. I only see a need for 3 levels of wizard but "unlimited" levels of thief.
Does my wizard/thief cease believing in magic when he classes out to thief? Or is the more likely scenario that he continues to believe in the power of his spells?

[Goliath Strongarm]

Ok try this on for size Panomas...
I have a vision for a character but that vision requires both multiple levels and classes to complete.
The vision is a magic using thief. More thief than mage. I only see a need for 3 levels of wizard but "unlimited" levels of thief.
Does my wizard/thief cease believing in magic when he classes out to thief? Or is the more likely scenario that he continues to believe in the power of his spells?

Or a wizard has, over time, hit 15th level. He then decides to learn how to be am effective warrior, or to be an assassin. Or he gains his own territory and decides to actually class as a noble.

Why would his magic stop?

[Damian Magecraft]

Ok try this on for size Panomas...
I have a vision for a character but that vision requires both multiple levels and classes to complete.
The vision is a magic using thief. More thief than mage. I only see a need for 3 levels of wizard but "unlimited" levels of thief.
Does my wizard/thief cease believing in magic when he classes out to thief? Or is the more likely scenario that he continues to believe in the power of his spells?

Or a wizard has, over time, hit 15th level. He then decides to learn how to be am effective warrior, or to be an assassin. Or he gains his own territory and decides to actually class as a noble.

Why would his magic stop?

I would say it stops progressing since he is no longer devoting time to advance his magic but as long as he continues utilizing said magic it should not atrophy.

[Damian Magecraft]

As can you cite where beyond the need for belief where it states in the passage that should a mage change class he stops believing that magic functions?
Or they cease believing in their ability to cast?

[Damian Magecraft]

Oh and one more point on this debate.
There are no mechanics on how belief affects the ability to cast.
Only fluff.
Fluff =/= mechanics.

[Damian Magecraft]

What about the rule to allow class changing in PFRPG is that fluff or mechanics?

It talks about mechanics within a lot of fluff... Perhaps the only difference between the two is specifics?

Ok let's go with that...
What are the rules for determining if a mage has lost his belief in magic?

[drewkitty ~..~]

What about the rule to allow class changing in PFRPG is that fluff or mechanics?

The Changing OCC rules in the PF High Seas book is full of mechanics. See Goliath Strongarm's post for the summary.

No there are not any rules conserning a mage loosing his ability to cast magic in the Genrlized Rules about Changing OCC's. That is something if a individual GM wants to make a house rule for they are welcome to do so. Outside any house rules, they would keep their ability to make magic if changing from a mage class to a non magic class.
(note: Mages are characters that learned how to make magic, like the Wizard, Mystic Study, and LLW.

They are not witches, priests, Warlocks, nor Psi-Mystics/Mystics. Which are Granted and Intuitive magic users. All of which would only change their class if the powers were taken back or otherwise lost due to injury.)

It talks about mechanics within a lot of fluff... Perhaps the only difference between the two is specifics?

...... What are you talking about?
If there is any "Fluff" in the Changing OCC rules in the PF HS book I can't find it. Every sentance has something pertaining to the mechanics of the rules even if it is just defining what ideas are present and giving examples.

[Damian Magecraft]

What about the rule to allow class changing in PFRPG is that fluff or mechanics?

It talks about mechanics within a lot of fluff... Perhaps the only difference between the two is specifics?

Ok let's go with that...
What are the rules for determining if a mage has lost his belief in magic?

Changing from a magic O.C.C. to a non-magic O.C.C. of coarse-

Since belief in magic is a requisite requirement; would you argue different?

If you do then perhaps you would lean towards the MoM; but I would ask that an example is sited from any section in regards to the rules to Palladium Magic (any game) as a whole-

and where is it written that changing class causes this change in belief?

[Damian Magecraft]

An additional question is if you consider magic as a job, as career, or as a skill?

In general what is your take or how can it be categorized?

As mentioned it seems to me as more of a religion; since it first requires belief.

Let's go with your religion angle...
Are you saying that it is impossible to be religious if you are not of the clergy? Because that is the message you are conveying. And if that is the case I know a lot congregations that are effectively practicing a form of self delusion.

[Damian Magecraft]

To restate:
The rules do not support and in fact refute the notion that changing class from a wizard automatically results in the wizard losing his "faith" in magic or his ability to cast spells. Nor does it result in a loss of said abilities.

[Goliath Strongarm]

To restate:
The rules do not support and in fact refute the notion that changing class from a wizard automatically results in the wizard losing his "faith" in magic or his ability to cast spells. Nor does it result in a loss of said abilities.

It's amazing how often DM and I can disagree... this is NOT one of those times. In fact, this entire thread has had us pretty much in agreement (and has thrown at least one person for a loop!)

Pan, there is NOTHING for us to directly refute- you're stating idea & theory and opinion, without actual book rules supporting you. Nothing but fluff text. Which, by the way, you define incorrectly.

Rules, even if you think them poorly written, are not fluff text. Fluff text, for example, would be the quotes from the Tristine Chronicles. Or the blurb about belief in magic. Or the blurb about the theory of PPE being used for skills and whatnot.

There is NOTHING, in the RULES, at all, to support your theory. Now, while I don't have MoM, what IT says has already been stated by someone else. And continues to argue against you.

Just because he learns something new doesn't mean he STOPS being a mage.

Here's one for you- say someone leaves the military (soldier OCC). He joins the reserves or national guard, so keeps practicing those soldier skills (doesn't lose them). Then, as a civilian, he goes to school and gets his PhD, and becomes a Professor at the University (Scholar OCC).

Are you saying he's no longer able to use his soldier skills and abilities? Or, hey, let's make this even BETTER-

Someone is a Professor (scholar, not scholastic monk), who believes in pacifism. Then, his home is attacked and destroyed, and, to protect what little is left, he takes up arms (mercenary). Sure, he's learned how to fight, but he's ALSO still a scholar. He may have lost his "belief" in pacifism, but not in KNOWLEDGE.

You're suggesting that because a mage (especially someone like a wizard, with his magic being scholarly and studied) decides to expand his mind, and learn another set of abilities, he should lose his spellcasting. Yet you have NO BASIS for your argument.

What if he decided to practice Diabolism? Does this mean he "lost his belief" in spellcasting? What if he becomes a summoner?

[Goliath Strongarm]

To restate:
The rules do not support and in fact refute the notion that changing class from a wizard automatically results in the wizard losing his "faith" in magic or his ability to cast spells. Nor does it result in a loss of said abilities.

Do you have a quote from the text?

And where are some of the answers that I requested, in the various posts before hand... To be fair I am answering and explaining; while very few of the questions I ask you are being answered at all.

If we are having an open discussion; before you ask more questions I would kindly ask that you at least attempt to address the points I also bring up.

It's much easier to ask questions then address counter points or questions made or asked.

Actually, to respond to your repeated questions (again) about quotes from the text- go back and see where I talked about the RULES for changing OCCs. The rules list nothing about it, at all. And, in fact, the RULES list nothing about the "belief". That's in flavor text. AKA, fluff.

YOU still have not answered OUR questions, about where the bloody hell you get the idea that picking up another OCC means that he "lost his belief" (if you want to consider the fluff text as a rule). Please, enlighten us. Because THERE IS NOTHING IN THE BOOKS FOR THAT!

Your argument stands that because the rules say he doesn't keep the power, he should lose the power. Seriously, go back and read what you're posting. That's your stance. So, if an Assassin picks up a second class, he should lose the bonus attacks he gains from being an assassin? Or should Noble picking up another class lose their heritage bonus? Why not, the rules don't say they keep them!

Notice the flaw in your argument? Honestly, this has sunk too low to be called a "discussion" any longer. At this point, it's silliness.

[Goliath Strongarm]

Here is a source: Rifts U.E. (Section Conviction; last sentence): “More than that, being a practitioner of magic is a way of life, and the student must embrace that life with every fiber of his being.”

1) Rifts book for a PF forum
2) Fluff text, and not a RULE
3) Still doesn't show a person losing belief. He doesn't STOP being a magic user, he just adds something else to his box of tricks. Take, for example, my previous comment in regards to someone leaving the active duty military, and joining the reserves or national guard. He (or she) is still a SOLDIER (or marine, airman, sailor, whatever), but they are something else IN ADDITION TO.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. Oy vey! Looks like things started getting out of hand since last I checked this thread. Okay, I think I might be able to help out a bit to help everyone see each other's side (agree or disagree, just understanding is important and I think some of that is missing).

If I understand the two sides it's as follows ...

Damian Magecraft, Goliath_Strongarm, etc.: You don't stop believing in magic. You clearly know it's real. You've cast spells before. There's no reason to think by learning a new skill that you'll stop believing magic works. Even if it's like a religion, non-Priests can still believe/worship. This is supported by the Half-Wizard drewkitty_~..~ mentioned above.

Panomas: Belief is important. If you switch to a non-magic O.C.C., you may still believe magic is real (kind of like a Nega-Psychic in Rifts Psyscape) but by switching to a non-magic O.C.C. you're saying you no longer believe magic is the answer. Magic can't cut it, so you need to learn something else. So though you believe it's real, this crisis of faith (if you will) hampers your ability to actually cast magic. Going back to the religion comparison, anyone can worship/believe. However, if you're a priest and/or stop having faith in that god ("Yeah, he's real, but he's not as great as I thought. I used to think he was so great, now I don't know anymore ..."), then you're likely to lose your priestly powers. This is supported by his R:UE quote stating how it's a way of life, and you have to accept it with every part of your being.

Multiple O.C.C. Rules: I can't find any rules or examples that specifically mention a practitioner of magic becoming a men of arms (or other non-magic using O.C.C.). I had thought they were there, but when I looked I couldn't find them. The Multiple O.C.C. rules in Adventures on the High Seas definitely don't disclude it, but they don't mention it either. Nor can I find any NPC that have done such a thing either (not that I looked too hard).

My thoughts: I believe the rules we have closer support the Damian_Magecraft/Goliath_Strongarm/etc. stance on the matter, but I can't find anything hard to back it up (other than possibly the Half-Wizard O.C.C. drewkitty_~..~ included earlier). Also, if a practitioner of magic can learn Hand to Hand: Martial Arts (just like a fighter type), can learn the same W.P. types, can take many of the same skills, and none of this interferes with casting magic, not sure that taking a warrior type O.C.C. would cause any problems either (think of the Mystic Knights from Rifts for example, this is basically an example where they're already spliced together). However, I think I see Panomas' point, and I can't find much that directly contradicts it either.

Anyways, just a few points. Hope some of that will at least help everyone at least see the other's side better. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.



P.S. Since I'm here, the Dual O.C.C. errata on the Cutting Room Floor actually allows multi-classing into a psychic O.C.C. See here:

http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=200

Not really important to the magic issue, but just thought to throw it out there for the psychic talk earlier. Have fun.

[Goliath Strongarm]

Nor can I find any NPC that have done such a thing either (not that I looked too hard).

Now, I'll admit.. most don't tell us which of these OCCs was first, and which was second... And I am, of course, leaving those that are multiple magic OCCs off the list, and ignoring those that have no magic or psionic OCCs

Wolfen Empire:
Cassandrix is a summoner/mind mage
Laddimer Badd is a knight/wizard

High Seas:
Fala Livv is a diabolist/ranger (she was a ranger first, diabolist second)
Krylac- a psi-healer who used to be an assassin, but lost most of his abilities through lack of practice, and because he changed his view on life

Baalgor Wastelands:
Eshkoven Juijod- a dragonwolf thief/wizard
Grovoss- mercenary & oneiromancer
Coweda Gatisi- thief & witch of the old ones (how wrong is it to name a minotaur COWeda???)



I could probably find more, but it's late, I'm tired, and I have a headache... gnight

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip...
To put it simply what I mean by fluff is that the changes essentially equal lip service towards something which is debated heavily on these forums and in player games-

They are so because

A) they are not specific
B) they do not consider RCC-OCC-PCC etc.
C) they do not explain anything about Class Abilities-While going in detail about class skills-

To me all of this equals fluff...Because it is an incomplete blurb.

I ask, a rule which does not consider all the factors that a class change would involve is a good rule? Written as is it's a good rule?

Then why so many questions and so much debate?

A) They are the generalized rules for Changing OCC's. Not generalized rules for changing 'any class'.There are TOO many OCC's even in PF for there to be rules specific to changing too/from each OCC, like you are suggesting it should be.


B) They only cover OCC's because 1)PCC's Can Not change their class. 2) RCC's are a part of the Race's "way of life" so it will not change under normal Game Play.
(i.e.:It takes extra ordinary circumstances for both PCC's and RCC's to change their class. Mostly these are ones where they "Have To" change rather then any 'Want To" change. Like, in the case of PCC's, a head injury that eliminates the psion's powers or in the case of a RCC being transported into such an alien culture that just to survive they have to change.)


C) Because the OCC "abilities" are mostly "skills", thus covered by the text about skills. Then there is also the "non-skill abilities" are linked most often to the level of the OCC. And thus by seeing that the Level no longer progresses, the powers do not progress ether.
There is no "they loose their OCC abilities/powers" because if they do or not is a part of "The Story", not of the "mechanics."

[zyanitevp]

I have, in my game, our first "by-the-book" half- wizard/thief- Bungo, the (not in book) hallfling. My opinion, as always, is whatever works for your game.
The PC wanted to try it out, as written, as his "bff" is playing a multi-class mage that has made no secret of wanting to become an alchemist....
Will report as it becomes clear which way is better, my house rules vs book.... but if you want to check out progress, our game is online, in my signature....

[arouetta]

If the argument keeps going, can someone lock the topic? I didn't mean to stir up a hornet's nest. Thanks.

[kiralon]

I allow multiclassing, mostly because this is a game about being fun and who never wanted to play that thief who could get through magical locks, or that fighter who could fly, but i never liked the doubling up of picking skills from multiple occ's because it over powers the others for skills. So i made a simple house rule for it based of IQ and the fact that magic in palladium doesnt seem to be a very hard discipline to learn (as others mentioned you can learn the high end fighter stuff with some of them) so it goes like this.
You can't have more skills then you have IQ+10 if you multiclass
Magic casting costs 6 skills. (i think magic should be hard to learn)
Priest Casting Costs 3 Skills.
Druid costs 4 points
Classes with particular specific skills (like acrobat) cost 2 skills

So George with his IQ of 14 wants to change from Thief (23 skills by level 3) and he wants to change to mage, mage costs 6 extra skill points so it would be the equivalent cost of 23 (current) +6 (magic casting) so he would need 29 points, poor george isnt clever enough to become a wizard as well because he only has 24 points (iq 14 + 10). Say we kicked Georges IQ up to 20, he has 30 points now so he can get magic casting which costs 6, which leaves him on 29, which means he gets to pick 1 new skill with his new class and thats it, no other occ skills from wizard, no secondary etc.

I find that this way shows the diminishing returns of changing your lifes role from what you were learning as a kid. A person with the same stats should be better at magic because he learned it from the age of 10 then the guy who just switched to it from merc fighter or as a better way of putting it,
a Jack of All trades is master of none.

[kiralon]

"What about additional skills as the character progresses... Do you allow them to pick up those extra skills?"

yes because he is still learning, and if they really want another skill ill drop one of their originals occ's skill level down to compensate. Its mostly just to slow down skill looting, as most of the people i dm these days often find their character idea is a mix of classes.
I also give bonus skills for High IQ which helped out there as well (Same as PP chart. 16-17+1, 18-19+2 etc) and these skills can be cross class dependant on the DM, but can allow prowl to those that can't take it, or allow a Palladin dedicated to killing evil summoners/diabolists recognise symbols/wards and that sort of thing, The specialist skills generally need a good background story to back them up.

[victor15065]

Palladium makes it way to hard just do this like d&d keep going up on the same xp chart when you switch and the gm sets a certain amount of xp they need to earn before they start to advance in the next occ

[drewkitty ~..~]

Thank you very much kiralon for saying that you were saying that you were talking about your house rules in your posts.

And when you change your career how long does it take you in real life.Unless you have some in with the company and get OtJT, you are going to it takes a few YEARS to get the training done and maybe a few years after that to Find a Job in that field to get experience.
So in light of that PB's way to change careers is down right short.
And PB's game system is not DND. The megavercial systems need to be different from other playing systems otherwise there would be no point in there being different gaming systems.

------------------------

Recently I've had the experience of trying to make a dnd char (5th, 3.5 ed and pathfinder) and w/o help from somebody famillier with the systems I was stuck trying to find skills, weapons proficiencies and how to come to the combat stat's. Even when looking for them in the places I thought said stats should be.
With PB's systems, the stats are clear (mostly) and the explanations and details for stats and (basic) combat are all where they are detailed to be in the Table of Contents. Even so I believe a noob can at least get all their basic stats rolled and combat stuff filled out and a listing of the char's skill's in less then an hour with just the main book of any of the megavercial settings. Why?....cause PB sets up their main books with a section that tells a person how to make a char. Not just writing a book with a system that they think is awesome and forgetting that it needs to be clear enough for noobs to understand how to do the basics.

While I am learning these new dnd systems...(the blue and red box being what I originally learned on), it does seam to be a good system "Once You Have Learned It" but is horrible at putting everything needed to make a char[b] in just one book[/b] and making said information clear enough for the noob user.

Just because dnd makes changing class as easy as changing jobs instead of making it a bit harder to be more like the real world changing of careers the way PB has their Changing Class Rules, does not mean the PB way is wrong. Even if it limits a char from progressing in more then one class at a time and takes more effort in the way of the player to change their char's class.