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Speak to me of claw weapons!
Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 4:13 am
by Noon
One of my players has a rogue scholar character - he rather likes claw weapons at the moment.
But in terms of raw technological ones I can only think of vibro claws (2D6 MD). Which has dropped behind the sort of power the other characters have.
He has 9 PPE, so as I understand it he could use some TW weapons. I could even mod the weapons with some drain life technowizardry so it can pay a bit of it's own PPE (if his isn't enough) at the cost of some SDC/HP, for maybe 1 to 5 more PPE to help pay for activation.
I thought I'd draw on the collected knowledge of the forum and ask what's out there?
Re: Speak to me of claw weapons!
Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 4:26 am
by Killer Cyborg
I think that there are vibro-claws out there now that do 3d6 MD.
If he's not averse to magic, there's also dragon claw gloves from (iirc) PFRPG Dragons & Gods.
Or, possibly, claw weapons that are enchanted by an alchemist.
Re: Speak to me of claw weapons!
Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 6:00 am
by Giant2005
Naruni Wave Two has Ripper Vibro Claws which inflict 3D6 MD, have a base +1 to strike and parry (in addition to WP bonuses) and screw up natural healing. They are about as awesome as tech gets - Energy Claws from Aliens Unlimited could probably do more damage but the conversion from AU to Rifts is a little messy.
As far as magic goes, there are plenty of options:
1) The Enchant Weapon (Minor) spell: Enchant Weapon actually makes weapons pretty powerful due to it doubling normal damage - if you combine that with superior crafted weapons (rules as per Palladium Fantasy or the Ancient Weapons Master from HU), it will do quite a bit more than your average tech weapon.
2) Alchemist Created Weapons: Alchemists can make some pretty awesome stuff, specially if you use the Enchants from the Western Empire which are far superior to those in the PF Main Book.
3) Holy Weapons: They are boring but they exist... And unlike most magic weapon options, are actually described in a Rifts Book.
Re: Speak to me of claw weapons!
Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 9:10 am
by ShadowLogan
On the Tech Side
Appropriate 2 or 3 Wilk's Laser Knives (New West) or Sword (Merc Ops) and mount them in a vibro-blade gauntlet (replace the vibro-blades with laser blades) or custom built one. This may get expensive in energy clips (each gets their own EClip), but the damage would be impressive, granted for a bit the weight might be awkward (1 or 1.5lbs per Laser Blade plus gauntlet) until they get used to it.
Depending on the number of blades (2 or 3):
-Laser Knife Claws would do 6d6 OR 9d6
-Laser Sword Claws would do 10d6 or 15d6
Rules based allow the character to do power punches for x2 damage. May also want to allow the character to use Paired Weapons so they can launch a twin strike (lose automatic parry) while using two such weapons.
May want to check with the player 1st, but have him/her captured and experimented (OR Random Mutation event from encounter) on in some fashion resulting in:
-Psi-Sword psychic power that manifests as Claws (have to work out ISP)
-Mutant Animals in HU/TMNT/AB have Psi-Claws, mutate him into an animal w/Psionic Claws power (or skip the animal part), these IIRC don't have ISP cost
-Super Abilities (pick from: Body Weapon, Alter Limbs)
-Above normal strength (SN, Robotic, Bionic, Augmented) that alters the damage done with the existing claws (this could also be done with modifying the tech gauntlet to increase Strength category to do more damage).
Magic items in the claw category that I've seen aren't that impressive from damage perspective and comparable to the tech counter part, but they could make up for it with other enchantments.
May want to consider magic artifacts that beef the player up instead of the blades, like:
-"Fleet Feet" (Palladium Fantasy, in the cutting room floor for it on PB's main site)
-"Magic Adrenal Rush"
-"Fist of Fury" (SN STR for punching damage, which could override the weapon damage if it is more IIRC the rules)
-"Superhuman Strength" (SN PS of 30, see "Fist of Fury")
-"Crushing Fist" (does extra damage if MDC creature, but could interpret that to work w/tech)
-"Frostblade"
-"Invisibility: Simple" (attack while invisible, unlike Superior, but there are ways to be detected)
Magic Artifcats (found in BoM, Bio-Wizardry requires dealing with Atlantis):
-Demon Claw Blade (Bio-Wizard)
-Symbiotic Eylor Weapon Modification (does an extra d6, plus spells)
-Demon Claws (TW Melee Weapon)
Re: Speak to me of claw weapons!
Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 1:37 pm
by J_Danger
In the Juicer WB, there is something called a FIWS, which is a gauntlet with 3D6 vibroclaws and a particle beam cannon. Don't remember if there's a penalty for non juicers or a strength requirement though.
Re: Speak to me of claw weapons!
Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 9:06 pm
by Mack
Also, there's the CS Psionic Weapon Gauntlet (Psyscape, p154). I don't directly recommend it, but would suggest using it for inspiration.
Re: Speak to me of claw weapons!
Posted: Wed May 29, 2013 8:09 am
by ShadowLogan
Might also want to consider allowing Fencing Skill's damage bonus for swords to apply to knives and claws to. In Palladium Fantasy, the WP: Axe (or type of Axe) skill includes a damage bonus, I don't think it is part of the Rifts version. Alternatively one could create a specific WP: Claw that includes bonus damage for using any type of actual claw weapon.
This would apply with Tech, Magic, Psionic, or other classification for claws.
Re: Speak to me of claw weapons!
Posted: Wed May 29, 2013 4:31 pm
by kaid
For mystic versions a mystic kunzya or however the blazes that is spelled or the pirate dwarf DBee who can take their own version of it which is effectively the same could in theory make a magic non PPE consuming claw weapons that would be pretty good. I think they could max them out at 6d6 and potentially some other special effects such as pure silver which would make them DEATH to vampires.
The nice thing about the pirate Dbee from Dbees of north america is that their version of the mystic kuznya is effectivly the same as the russian one and they can make some basic magic firearms as well as the melee weapons and armor. And hey they are pirate dwarves which is pretty darn awesome so they are more willing to sell what they can make for cold hard cash than the mystic kuznya would.
Rune weapons would also be a way to go as somebody above mentioned but if you want something more than the techno versions without going into crazy town of the greater rune weapons the mystic kuznya type creations are pretty well balanced power wise and do have some useful additional extras they can toss on without the weapon being to cheesy or over the top.
Re: Speak to me of claw weapons!
Posted: Wed May 29, 2013 6:02 pm
by boxee
Silver plate them.
Add neuromace damage.
Get an operator to super charge them, adds 1d6 MDC.
Also rogue scholar is not a massive combat monster so doing 3d6 to 4d6 is not that bad.
Re: Speak to me of claw weapons!
Posted: Thu May 30, 2013 12:22 pm
by kaid
sexykitty wrote:Since the claw weapon is considered an off shoot of Wp:Knife do the sharpshooting bonuses for Knives apply? If so can i use a six armed borg with vibro-claws.lol
Sharpshooting would only apply to thrown/shooting weapons. If you threw your claws then I can see a reasonable argument for applying those bonuses.
Re: Speak to me of claw weapons!
Posted: Thu May 30, 2013 6:03 pm
by Giant2005
kaid wrote:sexykitty wrote:Since the claw weapon is considered an off shoot of Wp:Knife do the sharpshooting bonuses for Knives apply? If so can i use a six armed borg with vibro-claws.lol
Sharpshooting would only apply to thrown/shooting weapons. If you threw your claws then I can see a reasonable argument for applying those bonuses.
It can't be used with thrown weapons either. The only way to use Sharpshooting with a Knife is to have some kind of Knife throwing gun or staple your knives to the end of your arrows and fire them from a Bow.
Re: Speak to me of claw weapons!
Posted: Thu May 30, 2013 11:13 pm
by Nightmask
sexykitty wrote:So a Knife sharpshooter loses all Initiave strike bonuses etc. if he choses to stab somebody with a knife instead of throwing it? Sounds a lil wonky.
Not really, he's focused his skill into THROWING the knife, rather than keeping it in his hand. Two things that require a different level of coordination and training. Just as someone with a bow or gun specialization isn't going to be able to get those bonuses to beating someone with the weapon in melee because he ran out of ammo, that's not how he trained to use the weapon.
Re: Speak to me of claw weapons!
Posted: Thu May 30, 2013 11:37 pm
by Giant2005
sexykitty wrote:So a Knife sharpshooter loses all Initiave strike bonuses etc. if he choses to stab somebody with a knife instead of throwing it? Sounds a lil wonky.
There is no WP Sharpshooting: Knife skill. Sharpshooting can only apply to modern firearms or bows, there is no option for it to apply to a Knife in any form without adapting either of those mechanisms to fire Knives.
So there is no initiative bonus to lose.
Re: Speak to me of claw weapons!
Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 11:12 am
by kaid
Giant2005 wrote:sexykitty wrote:So a Knife sharpshooter loses all Initiave strike bonuses etc. if he choses to stab somebody with a knife instead of throwing it? Sounds a lil wonky.
There is no WP Sharpshooting: Knife skill. Sharpshooting can only apply to modern firearms or bows, there is no option for it to apply to a Knife in any form without adapting either of those mechanisms to fire Knives.
So there is no initiative bonus to lose.
I believe there are some classes with the built in sharpshooting skill that specifically allow knives as a choice to apply it to. It basically applies to throwing knives/throwing stars. Heck I think the combat magi from federation of magic can even apply the sharpshooting skill to magical energy blasts.
Re: Speak to me of claw weapons!
Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 1:04 pm
by Jefffar
Also the vibro-nail glove from Rifts Japan and lots of Vibro-claw variants in Lone Star
Re: Speak to me of claw weapons!
Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 4:02 pm
by Blue_Lion
Isnt the main weapon of the old preditor PA a claw hand with a laser in it?
Some of the TW mellee weapons from Storm spire culd be built as a claw in theory at least.
Re: Speak to me of claw weapons!
Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 10:02 pm
by Giant2005
sexykitty wrote:Giant2005 wrote:sexykitty wrote:So a Knife sharpshooter loses all Initiave strike bonuses etc. if he choses to stab somebody with a knife instead of throwing it? Sounds a lil wonky.
There is no WP Sharpshooting: Knife skill. Sharpshooting can only apply to modern firearms or bows, there is no option for it to apply to a Knife in any form without adapting either of those mechanisms to fire Knives.
So there is no initiative bonus to lose.
That statement is incorrect good sir. WP: knife is listed in with the sharpshooting skill selections. I also believe the new west GunSlinger occ mentions a knife slinger variant.
Where do you get that from? My books seem to be horribly out-dated on the subject it seems...
My New West is pretty decisive on the matter:
New West page 80 wrote:Sharpshooting cannot be applied to weapons that don't shoot, such as clubs, maces, knives, swords, axes, whips, or even spears, knives, bolas and other weapons that can be thrown.
My GMG says the same thing on page 81.
Re: Speak to me of claw weapons!
Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:25 am
by Slight001
Book and page number at the least... a quote would also be nice.
Oh and the release/version of the book in question would help as well.
Re: Speak to me of claw weapons!
Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:26 am
by Slight001
sexykitty wrote:Yawn. No.
Then nothing you say has meaning beyond opinion which for these discussions doesn't matter all that much.
Re: Speak to me of claw weapons!
Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:26 pm
by Mack
sexykitty wrote:Yawn. No.
If you're not going to answer, then don't answer. There's no reason to SPAM the forum, or incite others.
Re: Speak to me of claw weapons!
Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:18 am
by Long Shadow
sexykitty wrote:In the conversion book version it mentions Knives, In the new west under the sharpshooting skills it mentions knives. Not to mention Sharpshooting Knife IS an allowable skill.
I just reread the Sharpshooting skill s in both references and they specifically deny the use of the skill with knives. Conversions says that the skill is not applicatble to WP Knife, among other. In New West, it says that it cannot be used with things that don't shoot and lists knives as an example.
From New West (verbatim)
"Likewise, Sharpshooting cannot be applied to weapons that don't shoot, such as clubs, maces, knives, swords, axes, whips, or even spears, knives, bolas and other weapons that can be thrown."
Although it says it can be combined with Archery & Targetting, it explicitly states that it only applies to the sling, crossbow and bow & arrows.
So , using it with knives, whether its melee or thrown, is definitely out.
Re: Speak to me of claw weapons!
Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:17 am
by Noon
Aaaaanyway, I don't own alot of the books mentioned - wanted to sound out the options. But I'm thinking of taking the classic TW flaming sword from the rifts main book (7 PPE to activate) and describing it as a vambrace that the flames shoot out from, in a sort of flamey wolverine style fashion! Perhaps just two flamey blades though - three seems too much somehow. Anyway, doing 4D6 MD, as per the sword.
Did I mention the LLW has lightblade now - it's part of the crazy disparity (WELL actually the rogue scientist got his hands on a particle beam accelerator - which is 1D4x10, so quite comparable to light blade. But the rogue's all claw fetish - so I think help a bit, but if you're not magic, the big boom is guns. So this is my middle ground sort of thing)
Re: Speak to me of claw weapons!
Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:38 pm
by Noon
The dinosaur swamp book tends to suggest anyone with sufficient PPE can activate a TW weapon (check out the magic swords and such). Unless it's just refering to eco wizard stuff.
Re: Speak to me of claw weapons!
Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:23 pm
by Nightmask
Saurvon wrote:Noon wrote:The dinosaur swamp book tends to suggest anyone with sufficient PPE can activate a TW weapon (check out the magic swords and such). Unless it's just refering to eco wizard stuff.
Pg. 126 Rifts Ultimate Edition: 3rd Paragraph under the Techno-Wizard O.C.C.; “Another advantage is that people who are not psychic or mystically oriented can NOT operate the device at all.”
So I had to go look up the stuff in Dino Swamp. They do mention that a Techno Wizard could figure out how to use the Eco-Weapons, they also mention that the Barbarians described could use these. But the Barbarians are all Minor Psychics, which could already use TechnoWizardry due to their Psychic nature.
Sadly, unless this Rogue Scholar is a psychic, TW isn't a good option.
And because the books scatter rules all over the place Techno-Wizards can make it so their devices can be used by anyone, even non-mages and non-psychics, provided the PPE costs are covered somehow. Which is why you'll see some OCC with such TW items in their starting gear lists even though the OCC is not psionic or magical.
Re: Speak to me of claw weapons!
Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:52 pm
by Killer Cyborg
Nightmask wrote:Saurvon wrote:Noon wrote:The dinosaur swamp book tends to suggest anyone with sufficient PPE can activate a TW weapon (check out the magic swords and such). Unless it's just refering to eco wizard stuff.
Pg. 126 Rifts Ultimate Edition: 3rd Paragraph under the Techno-Wizard O.C.C.; “Another advantage is that people who are not psychic or mystically oriented can NOT operate the device at all.”
So I had to go look up the stuff in Dino Swamp. They do mention that a Techno Wizard could figure out how to use the Eco-Weapons, they also mention that the Barbarians described could use these. But the Barbarians are all Minor Psychics, which could already use TechnoWizardry due to their Psychic nature.
Sadly, unless this Rogue Scholar is a psychic, TW isn't a good option.
And because the books scatter rules all over the place Techno-Wizards can make it so their devices can be used by anyone, even non-mages and non-psychics, provided the PPE costs are covered somehow. Which is why you'll see some OCC with such TW items in their starting gear lists even though the OCC is not psionic or magical.
BoM 21
Who can use Techno-Wizard items?
Anyone who can draw upon mystic forces or tap their own PPE, ISP, or even Chi can power and use TW devices. Likewise, those who are open to the supernatural or have large amounts of PPE like children may be able to power and use TW items (often without realizing how). With children, the ability to power and use these items may disappear with age, or with enough practice, may be retained even though they may have a lower amount of PPE ad they get older.BtS 74
Child, 13 years old or younger - 6d6+6 PPEThe range of 6d6+6 PPE has a minimum of 12 PPE, and a maximum of 42 PPE, which is quite a lot.
It's not clear exactly which level of PPE is necessary to be able to use TW devices, but it wouldn't be outrageous to assume that it's the low end, and that all children can potentially use TW devices.
Which would mean that "large amounts of PPE" could be "12+."
Even if a mundane character's PPE isn't high enough, though, any TW devices can be created (as of RUE) specifically to be usable by mundanes, if the builder desires.
Re: Speak to me of claw weapons!
Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:57 am
by Giant2005
Killer Cyborg wrote:BoM 21
Who can use Techno-Wizard items?
Anyone who can draw upon mystic forces or tap their own PPE, ISP, or even Chi can power and use TW devices. Likewise, those who are open to the supernatural or have large amounts of PPE like children may be able to power and use TW items (often without realizing how). With children, the ability to power and use these items may disappear with age, or with enough practice, may be retained even though they may have a lower amount of PPE ad they get older.
BtS 74
Child, 13 years old or younger - 6d6+6 PPE
The range of 6d6+6 PPE has a minimum of 12 PPE, and a maximum of 42 PPE, which is quite a lot.
It's not clear exactly which level of PPE is necessary to be able to use TW devices, but it wouldn't be outrageous to assume that it's the low end, and that all children can potentially use TW devices.
Which would mean that "large amounts of PPE" could be "12+."
Even if a mundane character's PPE isn't high enough, though, any TW devices can be created (as of RUE) specifically to be usable by mundanes, if the builder desires.
Merc Ops page 138 clarifies a "large" amount of PPE to be 10 or more. The Rogue Scholar is out by 1 PPE.
Re: Speak to me of claw weapons!
Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:16 am
by Eashamahel
Amusingly shut down tangent on knives and sharpshooting.
In a game I was part of (actually NOT GMing for once) there was a Techno-Wizard who added Flaming Swords to a pair of Vambraces (used the Dog Pack DPM armour as a base) he wore. Also had a TW jammer on one and something else on the other. Combined with a Turbo Wing Board, Superhuman Speed and Armour of Ithan on the armour, he was quite the concept.
There are also Bio-Wizard claws available from Atlantis, pretty sure the Maxi-Killer has some.
As stated already, Dog Boys have access to Vibro Claws (basic ones in the RMB, lots of options in Lone Star), and there are always the cybernetic claws. Adding a vibro forearm blade to a suit of body armour is a good system. Long ago I ran a game with a Juicer who had an Operator instal vibro claws onto a gauntlet, then got (I think it was) a plasma blaster put on as well (with e-clip port, Bionic style). When Juicer Uprising, and then CS War Campaign came out, we were deeply amused someone else had thought that was a neat idea.
Re: Speak to me of claw weapons!
Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:10 am
by mobuttu
Have you considered cybernetic vibro-claws?
If they are attached to a cybernetic hand with other "tools" they can be quite interesting. Take a look at Bionic SB or Russia WB.
Hope this helps.
Re: Speak to me of claw weapons!
Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:18 am
by mobuttu
Giant2005 wrote:Merc Ops page 138 clarifies a "large" amount of PPE to be 10 or more. The Rogue Scholar is out by 1 PPE.
Agreed.
Although, he could activate TW claws should they'd have their own PPE source (PPE battery) or by PPE Storage rules (RUE131).
Hope this helps.
Re: Speak to me of claw weapons!
Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:43 am
by ShadowLogan
mobuttu wrote:Giant2005 wrote:Merc Ops page 138 clarifies a "large" amount of PPE to be 10 or more. The Rogue Scholar is out by 1 PPE.
Agreed.
Although, he could activate TW claws should they'd have their own PPE source (PPE battery) or by PPE Storage rules (RUE131).
Hope this helps.
Or if the TW device uses the "Life Source" Spell (IIRC the name), it allows anyone to use the device as it drain HP/SDC instead of PPE. One of the examples in RUE has an anti-vampire TW sword like this.
Re: Speak to me of claw weapons!
Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:16 pm
by kaid
Noon wrote:The dinosaur swamp book tends to suggest anyone with sufficient PPE can activate a TW weapon (check out the magic swords and such). Unless it's just refering to eco wizard stuff.
I think this is pretty much the common ruling now it is mentioned in lemuria and arzno as well that people who grow up around these kinds of devices can use their innate minor amounts of PPE to power them.
Re: Speak to me of claw weapons!
Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:36 pm
by Giant2005
kaid wrote:Noon wrote:The dinosaur swamp book tends to suggest anyone with sufficient PPE can activate a TW weapon (check out the magic swords and such). Unless it's just refering to eco wizard stuff.
I think this is pretty much the common ruling now it is mentioned in lemuria and arzno as well that people who grow up around these kinds of devices can use their innate minor amounts of PPE to power them.
Yeah there are rules for common folk that have been brought up using Techno-Wizardry. In Arzno, such people get a higher PPE base of 2D6+11.
Re: Speak to me of claw weapons!
Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:26 pm
by Blue_Lion
TW weapons he might be able to use.
draining blade style.
battle fury even un activated is 6d6.
TW flaim dager (perhaps double or triple) 2d6
just have them set up as claws instead of the nornal shape. Exotic yea but easer to swallow than a rune weapon.
Re: Speak to me of claw weapons!
Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:43 pm
by Blue_Lion
hears is a crazy idea as a GM you can make something not on the books.
Welcome to crazy Hetz TW emporium let me show you are nice collection of claws.
We have a jelly bean terror claw.
the advanced ehanced tw claw hand does 4d6 md and can shoot a jelly bean 60' (jelly bean does 1 pt sdc.)
Then there is the tesla terror claw.
Comes with a built in aberty to turn it on for 3 min. Does 3d6 md when scharged and provieds impervious to energy.
Nothing says get out of my fase like Capting spooks huge friggen claw.
Comes with a tw sheath that powers it when you put it on, up to 4 times.
Grants super human str as per spell and does punch damage +1d6
Then there Is the claw dance.
This vibro claw 3d6 and when powered up can fight on its own up to 20 feet away for 3 min.
Or let them feel your hellish claws-
This claw has 1 minor deamon traped inside, graning its user the demons str and the abilty to provide hell armor 3 times a day (6th level armor bizar)
Then lets not forget the claw gun.
Shoots hooked claws at the other guy.
1d4 MD.
Re: Speak to me of claw weapons!
Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 1:10 am
by Eashamahel
I actually liked the idea of the laser knife gauntlet proposed above. Especially a multiple (probably 2) blade system, done up like the old 'Borg forearm weapons with an e-clip port to power them, that would be a pretty darned good addition to a combat Borg or really any armour for an up close character.
Re: Speak to me of claw weapons!
Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 3:58 am
by Noon
The characters did get jelly beans, living ones, as currency when they visited Primorder (amoeba world from one of the rifters)
I'm not terribly interested in buying books, then ignoring the contents.
I think I'll go with flaming claws. Latter maybe I'll have some sort of particle beam gunclaw, which shoots the particle beam after it's been stabbed into a target - basically just a very short range particle beam rifle.