internal ammo issues

[glitterboy2098]

this is a question that popped up in a game recently, and i thought worth asking, for curiosity if nothing else.

since destroying missiles in flight has a good chance of making all the missiles in a volley blow up, what happens if you destroy a missile launcher or for some units, a bodypart that has missile ammo in it. wouldn't all the unfired missiles have a good chance of detonating and causing extra damage?

[SpiritInterface]

In my opinion the answer would be no, for two reasons. 1: the missiles in the launcher are not armed so they are not likely to detonate, 2: the missiles in a box launcher are in separate cells with protection around them, and missiles in magazines said magazines tend to have special blow out panels to vent any explosion away from the vehicle.

[Icefalcon]

I would have to say it depends. As SpiritInterface said, most missile boxes are designed with blowout panels to channel explosions away from the vehicle (in the case of a jam at least). However, in Rifts (or any Palladium game) that is not always feasible. Look at PA's with missiles in the chest (or any other body part in which there seems no way to get to the missile other than the firing tube) and I would say that yes, an attack that destroys that area might cause that area to explode in firey death. The maybe part depends on the type of attack. For example, I do not see a rail gun attack setting of the missiles but on the other hand plasma or explosions would definitely set the unused missiles off. But this is just all my opinion because there is no real canon answer for this.

[Nekira Sudacne]

this is a question that popped up in a game recently, and i thought worth asking, for curiosity if nothing else.

since destroying missiles in flight has a good chance of making all the missiles in a volley blow up, what happens if you destroy a missile launcher or for some units, a bodypart that has missile ammo in it. wouldn't all the unfired missiles have a good chance of detonating and causing extra damage?

No, the missiles have to be armed before they can be blown up by secondary explosions. they arn't armed until they're already in the air.

[Blindscout]

I would agree with SpiritInterface. There could be some minor explosions as the fuel in the missles would detonate, something like this could require the pilot to make a piloting roll to stay in control. But the damage would be neglegable as the vehicle/PA/Robot is a MDC structure and the fuel would be a SDC explosion. Now I've been in, and run games, where a natural 1 lead to a armed missle stuck in a pod or launcher. That has lead to all sorts of fun. And some cool EOD rolls to disarm and repair the weapon.

Nice! Sounds like some fun right there. You just gave me another bit of potential excitement to add to my games.

[The Beast]

In my opinion the answer would be no, for two reasons. 1: the missiles in the launcher are not armed so they are not likely to detonate, 2: the missiles in a box launcher are in separate cells with protection around them, and missiles in magazines said magazines tend to have special blow out panels to vent any explosion away from the vehicle.

Mostly this. There could be secondary explosions, but it would be from failure to suppress any fires in the ammo storage area fast enough. (IIRC, that's part of how the Kursk sank.)

[glitterboy2098]

this is a question that popped up in a game recently, and i thought worth asking, for curiosity if nothing else.

since destroying missiles in flight has a good chance of making all the missiles in a volley blow up, what happens if you destroy a missile launcher or for some units, a bodypart that has missile ammo in it. wouldn't all the unfired missiles have a good chance of detonating and causing extra damage?

No, the missiles have to be armed before they can be blown up by secondary explosions. they arn't armed until they're already in the air.

they are still filled with explosives and propellants. in real life whether the fuse is armed doesn't matter, just whether the main explosion/impact is sufficient to cause those materials to explode.
in real life 40mm grenade arms itself via spin after firing, but hit a grenade ammo bin with another explosive, and you have a good chance you'd get Sympathetic detonation.
not to mention issues of ammo cooking off from high heat.. like that of a plasma weapon for example.

[Icefalcon]

this is a question that popped up in a game recently, and i thought worth asking, for curiosity if nothing else.

since destroying missiles in flight has a good chance of making all the missiles in a volley blow up, what happens if you destroy a missile launcher or for some units, a bodypart that has missile ammo in it. wouldn't all the unfired missiles have a good chance of detonating and causing extra damage?

No, the missiles have to be armed before they can be blown up by secondary explosions. they arn't armed until they're already in the air.

they are still filled with explosives and propellants. in real life whether the fuse is armed doesn't matter, just whether the main explosion/impact is sufficient to cause those materials to explode.
in real life 40mm grenade arms itself via spin after firing, but hit a grenade ammo bin with another explosive, and you have a good chance you'd get Sympathetic detonation.
not to mention issues of ammo cooking off from high heat.. like that of a plasma weapon for example.

My thoughts as well. Plasma can still be ignite by a separate explosion.

[Icefalcon]

Your examples are for low tech. I am not going to pretend I am an expert in any way, but the type of high yeild explosives we have today barely compare with the subject matter I thought we were talking about. So let me be sure to add some distinction. In an SDC Adventure the type of explosives could be just as volitile. In a High Tech Rifts/3Galaxies setting I believe the "Unarmed" missle would not lead to a MD explosion if detonated in a launcher. Plasma requires the igniter, Nuclear requires an even more technical detonation sequence, and the HE can be melted or ripped apart without worry. I suppose you could go so far as saying a ion or electrical attack could set off the HE types but the launcher/pod should be shielded so the energy damages the structure without affecting contents. Otherwise we'd all bypass armor to kill a pilot in that fashion. A the same rate, if Plasma missles could blow up from an attack to the ammo then all NE weapons would be a deathtrap.

If I remember correctly, the main explosive used by Naruni is K-Hex, which is a crystalline explosive. According to the Phase World Sourcebook, that substance is highly explosive and more unstable than nitroglycerin until NE adds a stabilizing agent. It even states that finished K-Hex can be detonated with another explosion.

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

Normally, I would say no. If you cheaped out and bought your ordinance from Chipwell Armaments or some disreputable back alley arms dealer for discount prices, then you might be in trouble. Missiles aren't cheap, after all, especially when you're tossing them around in volleys...

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

Your examples are for low tech. I am not going to pretend I am an expert in any way, but the type of high yeild explosives we have today barely compare with the subject matter I thought we were talking about. So let me be sure to add some distinction. In an SDC Adventure the type of explosives could be just as volitile. In a High Tech Rifts/3Galaxies setting I believe the "Unarmed" missle would not lead to a MD explosion if detonated in a launcher. Plasma requires the igniter, Nuclear requires an even more technical detonation sequence, and the HE can be melted or ripped apart without worry. I suppose you could go so far as saying a ion or electrical attack could set off the HE types but the launcher/pod should be shielded so the energy damages the structure without affecting contents. Otherwise we'd all bypass armor to kill a pilot in that fashion. A the same rate, if Plasma missles could blow up from an attack to the ammo then all NE weapons would be a deathtrap.

If I remember correctly, the main explosive used by Naruni is K-Hex, which is a crystalline explosive. According to the Phase World Sourcebook, that substance is highly explosive and more unstable than nitroglycerin until NE adds a stabilizing agent. It even states that finished K-Hex can be detonated with another explosion.

The reason Naruni is able to sell KHEX is because they're the only folks around who have been able to stabilize it so that it doesn't explode when shaken, dropped, or glared at harshly. Once stabilized it's no more dangerous than any other explosive in game terms.

[Jefffar]

Given the missiles in the launcher are usually not armed and typically in a protected housing, the odds of a hit setting them off should be considerably lower than for a missile in flight.

But it shouldn't be impossible.

I'd say if the launcher was destroyed by a weapon that itself is explosive, the chance of detonation occurring is about 1-35%. If the launcher is destroyed by a weapon that isn't explosive, the chance for detonation would drop to about 1-5%. Certain types of missiles (ie Plasma, Photon/Proton, Gas, Smoke and Nuclear) would probably not detonate properly in any situation.

As for damage, that would partially depend on storage arrangements and partially on the fact that the detonations would probably not happening in the optimal way for the missiles. Missiles in an open launcher or one with blow out panels would inflict half their normal damage. Missiles in an external launcher would inflict blast radius damage. Missiles in an external launcher with blow out panels or that is open would do half blast radius damage. Damage in all cases would be off the location the missile was housed first and then the main body.

A final note on anti-matter missiles. As they would actually have an active containment field holding a quantity of anti-matter, the destruction of the missiles in the launcher would essentially garuntee the release of the anti-matter. In that case the anti-matter would inflict full damage as if a direct hit unless the launcher/vehicle has some kind of secondary containment field.

[glitterboy2098]

actually, one of the Naruni PA's has a plasma cartridge ammo bin that does explode when destroyed.
of course, plasma cartridges can be set off by a sharp blow.. see the boobytraps section of CWC's skill entries for a version of the 'toepopper' that uses a naruni plasma cartridge, two boards, and a nail. step on the top board, presses the cartridge against the nail.. boom, plasma burst takes off your foot.

[jedi078]

this is a question that popped up in a game recently, and i thought worth asking, for curiosity if nothing else.

since destroying missiles in flight has a good chance of making all the missiles in a volley blow up, what happens if you destroy a missile launcher or for some units, a bodypart that has missile ammo in it. wouldn't all the unfired missiles have a good chance of detonating and causing extra damage?

I'd say it's GM's call as to how realistic he/she want to run a game. If you look at it from a realistic POV, yes unfired missiles can and will cook off. This is why explosive ordinance is usually stored in an armored bunker before being loaded.

As a GM I have sometimes had unfired/unarmed missiles and ammo cook off in a PC's mecha/vehicle but that's usually only after he/she has taken a catastrophic hit (i.e. a nat 20) that's going to kill them anyways.

[Nightmask]

actually, one of the Naruni PA's has a plasma cartridge ammo bin that does explode when destroyed.
of course, plasma cartridges can be set off by a sharp blow.. see the boobytraps section of CWC's skill entries for a version of the 'toepopper' that uses a naruni plasma cartridge, two boards, and a nail. step on the top board, presses the cartridge against the nail.. boom, plasma burst takes off your foot.

That's a mischaracterization there, the plasma cartridges don't say they can be set off by a sharp blow and a rigged booby trap by definition is designed so that the triggering requirements can be met. So no the cartridges aren't susceptible to sharp blows as suggested, you have to actually strike the trigger in the proper fashion to set them off.

[jedi078]

actually, one of the Naruni PA's has a plasma cartridge ammo bin that does explode when destroyed.
of course, plasma cartridges can be set off by a sharp blow.. see the boobytraps section of CWC's skill entries for a version of the 'toepopper' that uses a naruni plasma cartridge, two boards, and a nail. step on the top board, presses the cartridge against the nail.. boom, plasma burst takes off your foot.

That's a mischaracterization there, the plasma cartridges don't say they can be set off by a sharp blow and a rigged booby trap by definition is designed so that the triggering requirements can be met. So no the cartridges aren't susceptible to sharp blows as suggested, you have to actually strike the trigger in the proper fashion to set them off.

A toepopper booby trap can easily be made with a shotgun shell (well any bullet from a pistol round all the way up to an artillery shell can be used), and NOTHING has to be done to it.

Since the books mention that the Naruini cartridge can be used in a 'toepopper' bobby trap means that they work just like conventional ammo, that is when the primer is struck the projectile is propelled out of the barrel toward its intended target.

So yeah Naruni cartridges can cook off just like today's bullets.

[Nightmask]

actually, one of the Naruni PA's has a plasma cartridge ammo bin that does explode when destroyed.
of course, plasma cartridges can be set off by a sharp blow.. see the boobytraps section of CWC's skill entries for a version of the 'toepopper' that uses a naruni plasma cartridge, two boards, and a nail. step on the top board, presses the cartridge against the nail.. boom, plasma burst takes off your foot.

That's a mischaracterization there, the plasma cartridges don't say they can be set off by a sharp blow and a rigged booby trap by definition is designed so that the triggering requirements can be met. So no the cartridges aren't susceptible to sharp blows as suggested, you have to actually strike the trigger in the proper fashion to set them off.

A toepopper booby trap can easily be made with a shotgun shell (well any bullet from a pistol round all the way up to an artillery shell can be used), and NOTHING has to be done to it.

Since the books mention that the Naruini cartridge can be used in a 'toepopper' bobby trap means that they work just like conventional ammo, that is when the primer is struck the projectile is propelled out of the barrel toward its intended target.

So yeah Naruni cartridges can cook off just like today's bullets.

That really doesn't follow, one cannot point to a situation where something is set up with the intentions of going off and draw a conclusion that it will go off in an unrelated fashion where the conditions don't match what's required to intentionally set it off. We have nothing in the material that says Naruni plasma cartridges can be set off by such non-intentional situations, if they could be they'd make the effort to do so just as they point to other items and go 'this may go off prematurely if hit by electrical attacks'. Since such exceptions are explicitly noted in the books without an actual exception listed for the plasma cartridges we can't assume they go off from anything but how they're listed as being triggered by.

[Jefffar]

Well we know the Plasma Cartidge has a primor that can be triggered by crushing it, though there is no indication about the sensitivity of said primer to electricity, fire or other causes. There is also no real indication if any perpetration has to be done to the round before the prime is made live.

Still, it can be said that at least Naruni Plasma Cartridges (I still don't think the same applies to plasma missiles and similar) may be set off by an explosion that crushes the primers.

[sirkermittsg]

if the missiles are in protected cases etc that would keep them from exploding, then would they be retrievable and possibly usable in the future in the event of an aircraft being destroyed by missile fire?

[jedi078]

That really doesn't follow, one cannot point to a situation where something is set up with the intentions of going off and draw a conclusion that it will go off in an unrelated fashion where the conditions don't match what's required to intentionally set it off. We have nothing in the material that says Naruni plasma cartridges can be set off by such non-intentional situations, if they could be they'd make the effort to do so just as they point to other items and go 'this may go off prematurely if hit by electrical attacks'. Since such exceptions are explicitly noted in the books without an actual exception listed for the plasma cartridges we can't assume they go off from anything but how they're listed as being triggered by.

Nothing in the material says Naruni plasma cartridges can not be set off by a non-intentional situation, so we get back what I stated before: It's the GM's call.

if the missiles are in protected cases etc that would keep them from exploding, then would they be retrievable and possibly usable in the future in the event of an aircraft being destroyed by missile fire?

Yes although skill rolls (i.e. Feild Armorer, or Weapons enginner) would be needed to ensure that no damage has been done to the missiles.

[Killer Cyborg]

The books are clear that the same physical forces that will set off a shotgun shell will set off a plasma round.
Assuming that plasma rounds have some kind of built-in "intent detector" just seems absurd and unwarranted.

[Killer Cyborg]

The books are clear that the same physical forces that will set off a shotgun shell will set off a plasma round.
Assuming that plasma rounds have some kind of built-in "intent detector" just seems absurd and unwarranted.

Actually, the books explain that you can make a trap that hits the primer and sets off the trap. Not sure how familiar you are with the design of a bullet or shotgun shell, but the primer is inlaid into the casing to prevent accidental detonation. Fairly important for safe use of ammunition.

Bullet mines are bullet mines.
They work one way, and you don't need to do anything fancy with them.

RGMG 64
The cartridge is placed in a small hole in the ground atop a nail or firing pin, then covered by a camouflaged wooden slat. When somebody steps on the slat, the cartridge is pressed down on the firing pin, triggering a plasma blast that inflicts 1d4x10 MD to the victim's foot.

Firing Pin + Cartridge = The Cartridge Fires.
Just like normal bullets or shotgun shells.

[Ice Dragon]

this is a question that popped up in a game recently, and i thought worth asking, for curiosity if nothing else.

since destroying missiles in flight has a good chance of making all the missiles in a volley blow up, what happens if you destroy a missile launcher or for some units, a bodypart that has missile ammo in it. wouldn't all the unfired missiles have a good chance of detonating and causing extra damage?

Nothing much will happen. The missile is not armed and the other missiles are mostly in CASE storage.

[ArmySGT.]

this is a question that popped up in a game recently, and i thought worth asking, for curiosity if nothing else.

since destroying missiles in flight has a good chance of making all the missiles in a volley blow up, what happens if you destroy a missile launcher or for some units, a bodypart that has missile ammo in it. wouldn't all the unfired missiles have a good chance of detonating and causing extra damage?

Absolutely, just because the fuse isn't armed doesn't mean the explosives will not detonate. Another nearby explosion that damages or destroys a warheads casing has a very high chance of setting off the explosives in the warhead.

Some launchers are heavily reinforced and if the missile in the launcher explodes the structure is sufficiently strong to vent the blast in the direction of the weapons cover and exhaust ports. Some equipment like the M1 Abrams has blow out panels. If the main gun ammunition is hit by an antitank missile or a antitank landmine the door separating the crew from the ammunition is stronger than the armored roof panels and the roof panels are built with bolts intended to shear in two from the force of an internal magazine detonation.

Ordnance does not need to be armed to detonate as a result of enemy fire.

[Dog_O_War]

this is a question that popped up in a game recently, and i thought worth asking, for curiosity if nothing else.

since destroying missiles in flight has a good chance of making all the missiles in a volley blow up, what happens if you destroy a missile launcher or for some units, a bodypart that has missile ammo in it. wouldn't all the unfired missiles have a good chance of detonating and causing extra damage?

Strictly speaking, those rules are for missiles that were fired in a volley.

Technically speaking, you have only attacked the launcher and not the missiles, therefore the missiles wouldn't blow up at all because they themselves were never attacked.

You have both a strict and a technical reason why they wouldn't, and both reasons are within the rules.

But you also have posters saying that logically, the missiles need to be armed in order to explode; their logic is flawed and wrong, so do not listen to them. Explosives explode, it is really that simple. There is some merit to their logic though, and that is that typically only armed explosives explode, which should then offer a high chance that unarmed explosives wouldn't.

You also have the realistic approach; men using flamethrowers in WWII typically exploded when their payload was hit; men firing cannons often suffered an explosion when their powder reserves were hit; detonating a grenade in a box of grenades can cause the others to explode. etc.

So then you have two answers; by the rules - no. Definitely not. By logic and reality - yes, definitely yes.

How do these weigh-in? Rifts is not reality and by no means follows any kind of logic that makes sense, so that weighs against the 'yes'.

So my vote would be, "only in dramatically-appropriate situations should internal mags detonate".