Forums of the Megaverse®

If one were to make a Psi-Stalking-Nullifier (30% chance, pg.68, W.B. 12 Psyscape), based on the Psi-Stalker Note on pg. 83 which states, "In these cases, the character does not get the usual Psi-Stalker R.C.C. and psionic abilities, but the psionic powers and special abilities of the Nega-Psychic and Psi-Nullifier.", do you completely drop the whole needs P.P.E. for nourishment gimmick? The way I am reading it says yes, but if that's the case does he/she/it even need nourishment at all?

The second question also pertains to the Psi-Stalker Note and the next sentence directly after the previously quoted one, "However, skill selection and basic equipment is the same as presented under the Psi-Stalker R.C.C.", and then says to see the Lone Star book. I'm using a Wild Psi-Stalker out of RUE cause the dice are better, but my question is if I am to use the skills listed under the Psi-Stalker, why does the Psi-Nullifier give a +5% to Wilderness Skills only if you're a Psi-Stalker?

They still need to feed on PPE to survive, they just no longer have the abilities that make tracking down prey to feed on so easy for them and have to deal with the harder time foraging for PPE that a normal Psi-Stalker doesn't have.

I appreciate the response, but is there any way I could solicit an explanation as to why or any references you could share?

My main point is if the need and ability to use PPE as food is listed under the Psi-Stalker abilities which a Psi-Stalking-Nullifier does not get as per the book, then how is it justified?

My second point is that IF the character is to receive a single ability listed under the abilities which this character is NOT supposed to receive, how can one justify giving this ability and not the ability to track and sense potential food.

Yes I am fully aware that the "Third Eye" buff ability for Psyscapers is virtually the same as a Stalker's, and could just as easily give these abilities to the character in question.

I am not saying that I don't believe in handicapping such a character, and in a sense I agree with you. But I can guarantee the questions will come up, as they already have, and it's easier to arm myself with a printed off copy of the argument here when I head to my next session.

McFacemelt wrote:I appreciate the response, but is there any way I could solicit an explanation as to why or any references you could share?

My main point is if the need and ability to use PPE as food is listed under the Psi-Stalker abilities which a Psi-Stalking-Nullifier does not get as per the book, then how is it justified?

My second point is that IF the character is to receive a single ability listed under the abilities which this character is NOT supposed to receive, how can one justify giving this ability and not the ability to track and sense potential food.

Yes I am fully aware that the "Third Eye" buff ability for Psyscapers is virtually the same as a Stalker's, and could just as easily give these abilities to the character in question.

I am not saying that I don't believe in handicapping such a character, and in a sense I agree with you. But I can guarantee the questions will come up, as they already have, and it's easier to arm myself with a printed off copy of the argument here when I head to my next session.

Because it isn't an ability. An ability is 'can detect X', 'they consume Y for food' is a restriction. If you wanted to remove said restriction for becoming a Psi-Nullifier then they'd eat normal food in regular intervals like your average human does rather than being freed from the need to eat altogether.

Thank you again for the response.

I agree with you that more than likely said character would probably just eat normal food and water like a normal human.

I agree that normally one would think of being a PPE vampire as a restriction, except for the fact that by the book it and the ability not to eat food are listed under Psi-Stalker abilities, and is not to receive any of these if this particular one is a Psi-Nullifier.

I wish I could rule it the other way, I really do. I'm the GM who initially said the exact same thing as you.

All the questions I posed are the ones posed by my players, and you answered pretty much the way I did to them. At least until agreeing on the still needs food and water, I haven't had the chance to let them revel in that I told you so yet.

Thank you for the help.

McFacemelt wrote:Thank you again for the response.

I agree with you that more than likely said character would probably just eat normal food and water like a normal human.

I agree that normally one would think of being a PPE vampire as a restriction, except for the fact that by the book it and the ability not to eat food are listed under Psi-Stalker abilities, and is not to receive any of these if this particular one is a Psi-Nullifier.

I wish I could rule it the other way, I really do. I'm the GM who initially said the exact same thing as you.

All the questions I posed are the ones posed by my players, and you answered pretty much the way I did to them. At least until agreeing on the still needs food and water, I haven't had the chance to let them revel in that I told you so yet.

Thank you for the help.

You're welcome, but again just because the writer put it as an ability doesn't mean it actually is an ability. You could just as easily argue that humans being able to eat normal food instead of feeding on PPE is an ability but it's not an ability but a restriction. Everything feeds on something even if it's just ambient energy, Psi-Stalkers feed on PPE and being re-channeled into becoming a Psi-Nullifier isn't going to completely change its diet from PPE to normal food, things just don't work like that. They're mutants that feed on PPE, changing the thrust of their psionics into something else isn't going to change that.

It is bad wording in my opinion. I still think ultimately it should in theory be a restriction. However as GM, setting the precedent of giving abilities to an O.C.C that an O.C.C. is not supposed to receive is what I am ultimately trying to not do.

Yeah my players will get a few extra dice and some bonuses on their stats and not have to be PPE Vamps because of bad wording. That is a better outcome than magic wielding, psi-sword throwing >insert random nationality< borgs that are clearly stated as firm "Not going to happen!" in the books but happen anyways because I set a bad precedent.

I'm still with you, I think it should be even more difficult. I'd love to tell them not only are they PPE Vamps, but they also still have to eat food and drink water.

McFacemelt wrote:It is bad wording in my opinion. I still think ultimately it should in theory be a restriction. However as GM, setting the precedent of giving abilities to an O.C.C that an O.C.C. is not supposed to receive is what I am ultimately trying to not do.

Yeah my players will get a few extra dice and some bonuses on their stats and not have to be PPE Vamps because of bad wording. That is a better outcome than magic wielding, psi-sword throwing >insert random nationality< borgs that are clearly stated as firm "Not going to happen!" in the books but happen anyways because I set a bad precedent.

I'm still with you, I think it should be even more difficult. I'd love to tell them not only are they PPE Vamps, but they also still have to eat food and drink water.

Up to you, although it's not really a Psi-Stalker (even as a Psi-Stalker turned Psi-Nullifier) if it's not subsisting on PPE, it's just a funky looking human with some extra bonuses instead. They're biologically adapted to feed on PPE and training that makes one into a Psi-Nullifier shouldn't have any impact at all on their basic biology nor should feeding on PPE being listed as an ability be justification to make them suddenly normal humans eating normally because it changed its psychic development from stalker to nullifier.

Nightmask wrote:Because it isn't an ability. An ability is 'can detect X', 'they consume Y for food' is a restriction. If you wanted to remove said restriction for becoming a Psi-Nullifier then they'd eat normal food in regular intervals like your average human does rather than being freed from the need to eat altogether.

Consuming PPE is both an ability and a restriction. It's not an either-or situation. Consuming PPE is a great tactic for neutralizing mages and not merely something passive or negative.

A cruel way to look at it: a Psi-Stalker could lose the ability to feed on PPE, but still require it to survive, meaning Nega-Stalkers and Stalker-Nullifiers would be pretty screwed.

Nightmask wrote:just because the writer put it as an ability doesn't mean it actually is an ability.

Actually it does. =/ What the authors write is what defines everything.

Nightmask wrote:You could just as easily argue that humans being able to eat normal food instead of feeding on PPE is an ability but it's not an ability but a restriction.

It's both. The restriction is the requirement for food to live. Eating and digestion are abilities that mitigate the restriction.

Nightmask wrote:being re-channeled into becoming a Psi-Nullifier isn't going to completely change its diet from PPE to normal food, things just don't work like that.

Who says they can't work like that? People can just turn out that way. Normal humans can train to be Psi-Slayers who similarly feed on PPE. If you can move from being normal to PPE-hunter, you can also move from PPE-hunter to being normal.

Nightmask wrote:They're mutants that feed on PPE, changing the thrust of their psionics into something else isn't going to change that.

It could, you don't know that and are just asserting something without evidence to support it.

Nightmask wrote:it's not really a Psi-Stalker (even as a Psi-Stalker turned Psi-Nullifier) if it's not subsisting on PPE

Why don't you go tell a pack of Wild Psi-Stalkers that it's PPE vampirism that makes them what they are, and not anything else. See how that turns out. Apparently you can be a Psi-Stalker even if you're stripped of all your abilities, including PPE vampirism, since it's listed under their abilities.

What Kevin should have done, since he should remember adding the note in Psyscape, is make a note in RUE (you know, when he made Stalkers all semi-MDC and stuff) clarifying it. But I guess that didn't happen.

Nightmask wrote:it's just a funky looking human with some extra bonuses instead.

Not sure about that, aren't the bonuses also listed under abilities? At least in RMB anyway, might have been exported in RUE.

Nightmask wrote:training that makes one into a Psi-Nullifier shouldn't have any impact at all on their basic biology

Why shouldn't it? These are being who can just unconsciously negate MAGIC. That sounds pretty impactful to me. If they (and Nega-Stalkers) can negate magic with their powers, why can't they negate PPE vampirism?

Nightmask wrote:nor should feeding on PPE being listed as an ability be justification to make them suddenly normal humans eating normally because it changed its psychic development from stalker to nullifier.

It is a justification, because that's where it's listed. The CS program for turning masters into Nullifiers is a revolutionary way to save Stalkers' lives and allow them a peaceful existence once the world is wiped of evil supernatural beings and mages.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Because it isn't an ability. An ability is 'can detect X', 'they consume Y for food' is a restriction. If you wanted to remove said restriction for becoming a Psi-Nullifier then they'd eat normal food in regular intervals like your average human does rather than being freed from the need to eat altogether.

Consuming PPE is both an ability and a restriction. It's not an either-or situation. Consuming PPE is a great tactic for neutralizing mages and not merely something passive or negative.

No actually it is either/or in this case. It's not an ability because it's the only thing they can consume, so it's a dietary restriction just as an herbivore has a dietary restriction to only eating certain plants. You don't refer to it as an ability to eat plants you refer to it as a restriction on what they can eat.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:just because the writer put it as an ability doesn't mean it actually is an ability.

Actually it does. =/ What the authors write is what defines everything.

No actually it doesn't. Author misuse of a word does not change the actual meaning of the word.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:You could just as easily argue that humans being able to eat normal food instead of feeding on PPE is an ability but it's not an ability but a restriction.

It's both. The restriction is the requirement for food to live. Eating and digestion are abilities that mitigate the restriction.

No it's not both, those aren't abilities that mitigate a restriction those are what the restriction limits you to in order to survive. It is not an ability it's a restriction.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:being re-channeled into becoming a Psi-Nullifier isn't going to completely change its diet from PPE to normal food, things just don't work like that.

Who says they can't work like that? People can just turn out that way. Normal humans can train to be Psi-Slayers who similarly feed on PPE. If you can move from being normal to PPE-hunter, you can also move from PPE-hunter to being normal.

No you actually can't, in the one case you're adding an ability to subsist on an alternative source of food that supplies the energy needs of your cells directly in the other you have a mutation that removed the ability to survive on normal food and replaced it with a requirement to feed on PPE and you aren't going to be able to go back and turn on a digestive track and normal food conversion because they mutated to render those even less useful than an appendix or wisdom teeth.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:They're mutants that feed on PPE, changing the thrust of their psionics into something else isn't going to change that.

It could, you don't know that and are just asserting something without evidence to support it.

No you'd be the one asserting something without evidence to support it. Without proof that they mutate again and return to being able to consume normal food (something they were incapable of prior to having their psionic focus changed) then the conclusion must be that they still require PPE to feed on for survival. Your assertion has no more validity than claiming that they spontaneously develop the ability to survive on sunlight because it doesn't directly say that they don't. We know how they normally feed, we see no evidence that they are changed to eating like normal humans, therefor they continue with their normal original feeding requirements.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:training that makes one into a Psi-Nullifier shouldn't have any impact at all on their basic biology

Why shouldn't it? These are being who can just unconsciously negate MAGIC. That sounds pretty impactful to me. If they (and Nega-Stalkers) can negate magic with their powers, why can't they negate PPE vampirism?

Tor that argument doesn't even rise to the basic level of reasoning, an ability to negate magic has zero to do with the ability to remove a requirement to require food to survive (in this case PPE)). PPE vampirism is how they feed to survive, you can't negate that or train someone to somehow no longer need food. All you get is a dead body from starvation.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:nor should feeding on PPE being listed as an ability be justification to make them suddenly normal humans eating normally because it changed its psychic development from stalker to nullifier.

It is a justification, because that's where it's listed. The CS program for turning masters into Nullifiers is a revolutionary way to save Stalkers' lives and allow them a peaceful existence once the world is wiped of evil supernatural beings and mages.

No Tor that's not a justification, and tossing in stuff as if you were some member of the CS that has no way of supporting any such argument is just wasted text. You're no more going to train someone to be able to survive on a completely different diet than you can train a killer whale to live on kelp rather than seals (and I know someone who actually heard a woman actually say something as stupid as that).

Nightmask wrote:No actually it is either/or in this case. It's not an ability because it's the only thing they can consume, so it's a dietary restriction just as an herbivore has a dietary restriction to only eating certain plants. You don't refer to it as an ability to eat plants you refer to it as a restriction on what they can eat.

It's all a matter of perspective. The need for food isn't an ability, but the ability to consume living things IS an ability. There's no way around this. Especially when it's even more clearly an ability to neutralize dangerous creatures like mages.

Nightmask wrote:Author misuse of a word does not change the actual meaning of the word.

The author didn't misuse the word, to be able to deprive others of PPE is an ability. To exist on low food and water is an ability (relative to humans who need more). While the need for PPE (or ISP, ala RUE) is a disadvantage, this would be an example of coupling together a need with an ability. I doubt Psi-Stalkers are the only class that do this.

Reading Juicer Uprising lately, they're a great example of this, as things like 'Low Life Span' and 'Penalties' are listed under the 'abilities' section. I'm not going to call those abilities or bonuses (unless we're talking negative number bonuses) merely by merit of how the author labelled it...

But the ability to suck PPE is an ability, an ability that fulfills their unique need. It's both.

Nightmask wrote:it's not both, those aren't abilities that mitigate a restriction those are what the restriction limits you to in order to survive. It is not an ability it's a restriction.

This is not an either-or situation. The need for PPE to survive is a restriction. The ability to feed on PPE is not merely to fulfill that restriction, because it can be used offensively to deprive others of PPE. This can be done even when a Psi-Stalker isn't hungry.

Nightmask wrote:No you actually can't, in the one case you're adding an ability to subsist on an alternative source of food that supplies the energy needs of your cells directly in the other you have a mutation that removed the ability to survive on normal food and replaced it with a requirement to feed on PPE

You're treating these changes are more different than they are. It's simply a matter of direction.

1. Human > Psi = gain PPE feeding, gain PPE dependency
2. Psi > Human = lose PPE feeding, lose PPE dependency

Nightmask wrote:and you aren't going to be able to go back and turn on a digestive track and normal food conversion because they mutated to render those even less useful than an appendix or wisdom teeth.

If you can mutate in one direction, you can mutate in another. If you can turn on a PPE digestive tract, you can turn on a normal digestive tract.

Nightmask wrote:They're mutants that feed on PPE, changing the thrust of their psionics into something else isn't going to change that.

Except the rules say it does.

Nightmask wrote:you'd be the one asserting something without evidence to support it.

My evidence is in the rules. PPE vampirism is listed under their abilities, and I am defending the rules as they're written. You are trying to override the rules based on the false claim that the ability to steal others' PPE isn't actually an ability simply because it's an ability to fulfill a need.

If that was the case, then we could rule out pretty much ANYTHING as an ability. Turn invisible? That's not an ability, it's just to fulfill the need of protecting the monster from harm. PPE vampirism protecting stalkers from PPE starvation doesn't negate it as an ability.

If you check out Channelers in TTGD, it is clearly an ability for them.

Nightmask wrote:Without proof that they mutate again and return to being able to consume normal food (something they were incapable of prior to having their psionic focus changed) then the conclusion must be that they still require PPE to feed on for survival.

The proof is in the declaration that they lose all their abilities. Both the need and the ability are listed there. You could remove the feeding ability and leave behind the dependence, but then they'd all die, and they seem to be around, so obviously both go.

Nightmask wrote:Your assertion has no more validity than claiming that they spontaneously develop the ability to survive on sunlight because it doesn't directly say that they don't.

Incorrect. I'm saying they lose the dependence on PPE because that's what Psyscape says, because it deprives them of their abilities, and the ability to substitute PPE for food is listed as an ability. You're trying to skip the rules, my position is justified by Kevin's ruling in Psyscape.

Nightmask wrote:We know how they normally feed

Nega-Stalkers and Stalker-Nullifiers are not normal.

Nightmask wrote:we see no evidence that they are changed to eating like normal humans, therefor they continue with their normal original feeding requirements.

The evidence is that they are listed as losing their abilities, which includes PPE feeding. You're ignoring the evidence and saying you should be able to pick and choose which Stalker abilities the Nega/Nullifier get to keep and which get to go, but you don't, it's all or nothing.

Nightmask wrote:that argument doesn't even rise to the basic level of reasoning, an ability to negate magic has zero to do with the ability to remove a requirement to require food to survive (in this case PPE)).

True that, but I was more throwing out ideas than making a solid argument. With the Stalkers' ability to turn MDC I can't help but think they're more magically linked than you might assume though. If we surmise that their PPE vampirism and magical MDC transformation are linked, negating Psi-Stalkerness by these psychic variants actually does make sense to me. Negas and Nullifiers aren't only limited to negating PPE from spells.

Nightmask wrote:PPE vampirism is how they feed to survive, you can't negate that or train someone to somehow no longer need food. All you get is a dead body from starvation.

The ability to eat PPE instead of food is clearly an ability. Once they lose it, their metabolism reverts back to normal human digestion.

The reliance on PPE to survive is clearly a side-effect of the ability to consume PPE instead of food. So when they lose that ability, they lose that reliance. Do you have any evidence supporting the idea that Psi-Stalkers lose the ability to metabolize food? We know they still eat meat and drink water, so that's unlikely. Stalkers retain the abilities of normal human metabolism, but as a side-effect of their vampiric abilities, they develope a reliance on that new fuel source. A reliance that goes away if they lose the ability.

A similar issue to this would be someone with the major super ability of Bio-Ghost. Someone with that power develops a reliance on stealing other beings' SDC. If your super-powers are negated though, you would also lose that reliance. It's a super ABILITY, but a reliance comes as a built-in side effect of having that ability. Lose the ability, lose the reliance. Bio-Ghosts and Psi-Stalkers operate by the same logic here.

Nightmask wrote:tossing in stuff as if you were some member of the CS that has no way of supporting any such argument is just wasted text.

We know the CS can train Nullifiers (it says so) and we know that Stalkers who become Nullifiers lose their PPE dependence, ergo the CS knows how to cure Stalkers of that necessity.

They just opt not to because it's better to have a mix of detectors and negators than all one or the other.

Nightmask wrote:You're no more going to train someone to be able to survive on a completely different diet than you can train a killer whale to live on kelp rather than seals (and I know someone who actually heard a woman actually say something as stupid as that).

[/quote]It's not a completely different diet. Stalkers already eat meat and drink water. They still have their human metabolism. The CS just train them to negate PPE, and clearly as a side-effect of this, they lose their vampirism abilities and along with them, the dependence those abilities create.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:No actually it is either/or in this case. It's not an ability because it's the only thing they can consume, so it's a dietary restriction just as an herbivore has a dietary restriction to only eating certain plants. You don't refer to it as an ability to eat plants you refer to it as a restriction on what they can eat.

It's all a matter of perspective. The need for food isn't an ability, but the ability to consume living things IS an ability. There's no way around this. Especially when it's even more clearly an ability to neutralize dangerous creatures like mages.

No Tor, it's not an ability and just because it has a side-effect of weakening mages by depriving them of PPE does not make it an ability it's still a dietary restriction.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Author misuse of a word does not change the actual meaning of the word.

The author didn't misuse the word, to be able to deprive others of PPE is an ability. To exist on low food and water is an ability (relative to humans who need more). While the need for PPE (or ISP, ala RUE) is a disadvantage, this would be an example of coupling together a need with an ability. I doubt Psi-Stalkers are the only class that do this.

Reading Juicer Uprising lately, they're a great example of this, as things like 'Low Life Span' and 'Penalties' are listed under the 'abilities' section. I'm not going to call those abilities or bonuses (unless we're talking negative number bonuses) merely by merit of how the author labelled it...

But the ability to suck PPE is an ability, an ability that fulfills their unique need. It's both.

Again, misuse of a word does not change a word's meaning. Penalties aren't abilities nor are dietary restrictions.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:it's not both, those aren't abilities that mitigate a restriction those are what the restriction limits you to in order to survive. It is not an ability it's a restriction.

This is not an either-or situation. The need for PPE to survive is a restriction. The ability to feed on PPE is not merely to fulfill that restriction, because it can be used offensively to deprive others of PPE. This can be done even when a Psi-Stalker isn't hungry.

Which still doesn't make it an ability, being able to gorge on a particular food is something just about everything can do (short of things like beings that subsist on ambient energy of some sort as they can't force themselves to consume extra they just naturally absorb only what they need and no more).

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:No you actually can't, in the one case you're adding an ability to subsist on an alternative source of food that supplies the energy needs of your cells directly in the other you have a mutation that removed the ability to survive on normal food and replaced it with a requirement to feed on PPE

You're treating these changes are more different than they are. It's simply a matter of direction.

1. Human > Psi = gain PPE feeding, gain PPE dependency
2. Psi > Human = lose PPE feeding, lose PPE dependency

That is a fallacy Tor. The second does not follow the first. First nothing says that they lose the requirement to feed on PPE to survive and even if they did as soon as they were trained away from feeding on PPE since they can't subsist on normal (to humans) food they would then promptly starve to death.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:and you aren't going to be able to go back and turn on a digestive track and normal food conversion because they mutated to render those even less useful than an appendix or wisdom teeth.

If you can mutate in one direction, you can mutate in another. If you can turn on a PPE digestive tract, you can turn on a normal digestive tract.

One of many flaws in your reasoning is that they're somehow mutating into a psi-nullifier when they're being subjected to a training program that redirects the general thrust of their psionics, they AREN'T mutating into anything they're simply gaining a different psionic focus. Since they aren't doing anything but be refocused in their psychic specialty they must retain their PPE dependence otherwise they starve to death.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:you'd be the one asserting something without evidence to support it.

My evidence is in the rules. PPE vampirism is listed under their abilities, and I am defending the rules as they're written. You are trying to override the rules based on the false claim that the ability to steal others' PPE isn't actually an ability simply because it's an ability to fulfill a need.

If that was the case, then we could rule out pretty much ANYTHING as an ability. Turn invisible? That's not an ability, it's just to fulfill the need of protecting the monster from harm. PPE vampirism protecting stalkers from PPE starvation doesn't negate it as an ability.

If you check out Channelers in TTGD, it is clearly an ability for them.

You aren't even remotely using the rules Tor, even if under your laughable argument PPE vampirism were an ability rather than a restriction there are absolutely NO RULES that say becoming a Psi-Nullifier negates their requirement to feed on PPE or that they begin to spontaneously be able to consume normal food. Again, there is no more chance of training someone who feeds on nothing but plants to eat meat than there is to train someone that lives on PPE to eat normal food. It's simply not possible because that's not something that can be trained and the 'well it's an ability and they lose their psi-stalker abilities' is just a lot of red herring nonsense to try and remove a restriction from a character that can't be removed.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Without proof that they mutate again and return to being able to consume normal food (something they were incapable of prior to having their psionic focus changed) then the conclusion must be that they still require PPE to feed on for survival.

The proof is in the declaration that they lose all their abilities. Both the need and the ability are listed there. You could remove the feeding ability and leave behind the dependence, but then they'd all die, and they seem to be around, so obviously both go.

That's not proof Tor, and that's a ridiculous bit of reasoning as well. What's obvious is that they continue to feed on PPE because that's what they feed on since they clearly are around and one can't have one's dietary needs trained away.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Your assertion has no more validity than claiming that they spontaneously develop the ability to survive on sunlight because it doesn't directly say that they don't.

Incorrect. I'm saying they lose the dependence on PPE because that's what Psyscape says, because it deprives them of their abilities, and the ability to substitute PPE for food is listed as an ability. You're trying to skip the rules, my position is justified by Kevin's ruling in Psyscape.

No, that's not what Psyscape says, that's what you WANT it to say. They don't substitute PPE for food PPE IS their food, they don't lose their dependence on PPE because it's their food it's not some addiction they can be weaned off of.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:We know how they normally feed

Nega-Stalkers and Stalker-Nullifiers are not normal.

They are relative to Psi-Stalkers, which is what they originate as. They start as Psi-Stalkers that are subjected to some unknown training process that in a few cases alters their original psionic focus but it's not going to alter their basic nature with regards to food as their food is PPE just as it doesn't alter them so they can survive without breathing or having their heads cut off.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:we see no evidence that they are changed to eating like normal humans, therefor they continue with their normal original feeding requirements.

The evidence is that they are listed as losing their abilities, which includes PPE feeding. You're ignoring the evidence and saying you should be able to pick and choose which Stalker abilities the Nega/Nullifier get to keep and which get to go, but you don't, it's all or nothing.

That's not evidence, that's your flawed claim because their dietary restriction is listed as an ability and you can't get around the idea that you can't remove something so fundamental or that because they have to be able to feed to survive they must retain their listed ability to feed on PPE because they can't eat normal food.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:that argument doesn't even rise to the basic level of reasoning, an ability to negate magic has zero to do with the ability to remove a requirement to require food to survive (in this case PPE)).

True that, but I was more throwing out ideas than making a solid argument. With the Stalkers' ability to turn MDC I can't help but think they're more magically linked than you might assume though. If we surmise that their PPE vampirism and magical MDC transformation are linked, negating Psi-Stalkerness by these psychic variants actually does make sense to me. Negas and Nullifiers aren't only limited to negating PPE from spells.

You've yet to toss out a solid argument, just a lot of fallacies and opinions presented as if they were facts. We can't make the assumption you're making about PPE vampirism and the tacked on ability in R:UE to become MDC temporarily, they're unrelated. What you feed on has nothing to do with what abilities you may have, other than perhaps the rare creature that converts what they feed on into enhanced abilities (like those energy leeches that gain abilities as they feed on energy).

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:PPE vampirism is how they feed to survive, you can't negate that or train someone to somehow no longer need food. All you get is a dead body from starvation.

The ability to eat PPE instead of food is clearly an ability. Once they lose it, their metabolism reverts back to normal human digestion.

Quite wrong and very poor reasoning. They never had a normal human digestive system to begin with, they can't revert to what they don't have and again you base that argument on the fundamentally erroneous position that 'well PPE vampirism is listed as an ability not a restriction so it goes with all other abilities'. You keep insisting on that flawed argument when it should be obvious that it's not actually an ability and that somehow they gain an ability they never had and can't have to eat normal food EVEN WHEN NO SUCH ABILITY IS STATED.

You aren't going to get the best of both; you want to insist that PPE vampirism is an ability that goes away then since there is no stated ability for them to consume normal food then they must all die because you're ascribing to them a new ability that's not listed as available to the variants. By the letter of your argument feeding is an ability, Psi-Nullifiers are not listed as consuming what humans consider to be food and Psi-Stalkers have as their normal food PPE. Since you're the one insisting that what one eats is an ability that needs listed then without normal human food listed for the variant they must starve to death because they aren't listed as gaining that ability (and it IS a gain since normal psi-stalkers don't have it).

Tor wrote:The reliance on PPE to survive is clearly a side-effect of the ability to consume PPE instead of food. So when they lose that ability, they lose that reliance. Do you have any evidence supporting the idea that Psi-Stalkers lose the ability to metabolize food? We know they still eat meat and drink water, so that's unlikely. Stalkers retain the abilities of normal human metabolism, but as a side-effect of their vampiric abilities, they develope a reliance on that new fuel source. A reliance that goes away if they lose the ability.

*laughs* That is such horribly bad reasoning. You know what happens when a being loses it's ability to consume food? It dies. It doesn't spontaneously develop a way to feed on something else. Your fallacy here is trying to argue that 'A follow B' which isn't valid. There's nothing to support the idea that removing PPE vampirism as the means of feeding would have it follow that they must spontaneously develop the means of normal food consumption. Indeed they may be required to consume massive amounts of normal food, far beyond what a normal human would, because the most important food to their survival is denied them.

Of course your entire argument hinges on them losing their PPE Vampirsm anyway, a point that's already very evidently flawed when the most rational and logical conclusion is they just remain PPE vampires but without the normal abilities that help them find prey.

Tor wrote:A similar issue to this would be someone with the major super ability of Bio-Ghost. Someone with that power develops a reliance on stealing other beings' SDC. If your super-powers are negated though, you would also lose that reliance. It's a super ABILITY, but a reliance comes as a built-in side effect of having that ability. Lose the ability, lose the reliance. Bio-Ghosts and Psi-Stalkers operate by the same logic here.

Another flawed argument for multiple reasons. Bio-Ghosts don't develop a reliance on feeding on others (they aren't drug addicts), they have what they consume for food changed to feeding on the lifeforce of others, starting with SDC. There is no evidence that they regain the ability to eat normal food if the power is negated, they could just as easily starve to death due to the alterations made in their bodies. So your 'well of course they regain their normal feeding abilities' argument is dead in the water because it's only your assumption that they do, it's not a fact.

Also while you may think Bio-Ghosts and Psi-Stalkers are based in the same roots that's just another fallacy on your part as you try to wedge together unrelated things that have superficial resemblances and nothing more. Bio-Ghosts are people mutated into having that nature, it's not a racial ability. Psi-Stalkers are a racial offshoot that sacrificed normal food consumption in order to feed on PPE, at a genetic level they're not wired to eat normal food (what little they do eat is simply a bit of replacement mass and not really for energy), they aren't going to alter that fundamental genetic nature with some training.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:tossing in stuff as if you were some member of the CS that has no way of supporting any such argument is just wasted text.

We know the CS can train Nullifiers (it says so) and we know that Stalkers who become Nullifiers lose their PPE dependence, ergo the CS knows how to cure Stalkers of that necessity.

They just opt not to because it's better to have a mix of detectors and negators than all one or the other.

No Tor, we do NOT know that. That is merely your unsupported opinion. ALL we know is that Psi-Stalkers can be trained to become Psi-Nullifiers and lose their normal Psi-Stalker abilities, of which their PPE Vampirism ISN'T an ability.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:You're no more going to train someone to be able to survive on a completely different diet than you can train a killer whale to live on kelp rather than seals (and I know someone who actually heard a woman actually say something as stupid as that).

It's not a completely different diet. Stalkers already eat meat and drink water. They still have their human metabolism. The CS just train them to negate PPE, and clearly as a side-effect of this, they lose their vampirism abilities and along with them, the dependence those abilities create.

They don't eat meat or drink water because they're getting nourishment from it, they do so to replace body mass and fluids used up over time. It's made quite clear that their nourishment comes from PPE. Deprive them of their vampirism and they aren't going to develop a normal digestive tract, because 'A does not follow B'. Because you are trying to argue in support of something that already starts with flawed reasoning you treat things that aren't logical or supported as being factual when they aren't. Limitations don't go away just because the means of satisfying them do, that's absurd. Being PPE vampires does not somehow suppress a need for normal human food and all you have to do is get rid of the vampirism and they *poof* can eat normal food again. PPE IS their normal food, stop them from being able to feed on it and they're going to starve not suddenly develop a healthy appetite.

In any case I'm going to do my best to end this here because your only concern seems to be to disagree and argue unsupportable points rather than just acknowledge what the actual result would be: Psi-Nullifiers still feed on PPE because in the end they're still derived from Psi-Stalkers who do and that it would be an absurd bit of rules lawyering trying to argue otherwise so one can escape the downsides of being a PPE vampire that Psi-Stalkers have.

Nightmask wrote:it's not an ability and just because it has a side-effect of weakening mages by depriving them of PPE does not make it an ability it's still a dietary restriction.

The rules don't agree with you here Nightmask. You have no facts supporting you, only your own unfounded opinions. Psi-Stalkers have an ability to feed on PPE (the ability is listed prior to any restrictions) and then restrictions as a side-effect of having it. This is clearly the case since when they lose their abilities, they also lose that restriction.

Nightmask wrote:misuse of a word does not change a word's meaning. Penalties aren't abilities nor are dietary restrictions.

True, but dietary restrictions can happen as a side-effect of having an ability. This is the case with Bio-Ghost, and it is also the case with a Psi-Stalker's PPE vampirism.

Nightmask wrote:Which still doesn't make it an ability

Yeah, it does. Keep insisting that the ability to steal another being's magical energies isn't a power all you want, you're simply wrong here. This is a clear-cut ability.

Not all abilities come without side-effects. This is an ability which (like Bio-Ghost) has a side-effect. The author did not misuse the term ability or power when listing Nourishment underneath that section, because it is an ability. You haven't provided support to back your claim that it is a non-ability. Having a side effect doesn't make something not an ability. If that were the case, Bio-Ghost would not be a super ability.

Tor wrote:1. Human > Psi = gain PPE feeding, gain PPE dependency
2. Psi > Human = lose PPE feeding, lose PPE dependency

Nightmask wrote:That is a fallacy Tor. The second does not follow the first.

I'm not sure what specifically you're calling a fallacy here. Which specific logical fallacy am I engaging in here?

Nightmask wrote:First nothing says that they lose the requirement to feed on PPE to survive

Psyscape does. 'Nourishment' is listed under powers and abilities, and Nega/Nullis lose ALL of those.

Nightmask wrote:even if they did as soon as they were trained away from feeding on PPE since they can't subsist on normal (to humans) food they would then promptly starve to death.

Clearly since they lose ALL powers/abilities of Psi-Stalkers, they lose the PPE dependence as well. This would logically be because dependence on the alternative energy source is a side effect of being able to feed upon it, exactly like Bio-Ghost. It doesn't matter if you accept this logic or not though, a logical explanation is not needed, because this is what the rules say.

Nightmask wrote:One of many flaws in your reasoning is that they're somehow mutating into a psi-nullifier when they're being subjected to a training program that redirects the general thrust of their psionics

TBH, I was only repeating 'mutate' because you said it. I do not view the requirement to live on PPE as a mutation. I view the requirement as a side-effect of having the power to feed on PPE instead of food.

How we view it is irrelevant. It happens.

Nightmask wrote:they AREN'T mutating into anything they're simply gaining a different psionic focus.

Psyscape Pg 83 says that Nega-Psychic and Psi-Nullifiers are considered mutations of the Psi-Stalker race, so you're wrong there.

We can interpret that two ways: either the CS Nullifier-development program creates mutations to Stalkers (plausible) or it may be that the program is limited to humans (also plausible) and that Nega/Nulli Stalkers are only possible spontaneously. It's not clear either way, the training program wasn't expanded on much.

Nightmask wrote:Since they aren't doing anything but be refocused in their psychic specialty they must retain their PPE dependence otherwise they starve to death.

Incorrect. If Psi-Stalkers do not retain their PPE dependence (which is what Psyscape indicates), they will NOT starve to death, because being no longer dependent on PPE, they could exist on normal food alone.

Nightmask wrote:You aren't even remotely using the rules Tor, even if under your laughable argument PPE vampirism were an ability rather than a restriction there are absolutely NO RULES that say becoming a Psi-Nullifier negates their requirement to feed on PPE

Untrue. Psyscape rules state that abilities/powers (ie everything under that sections, including both the ups and downs of 'Nourishment) are lost. So this negates both their ability to feed, AND their requirement to feed, on PPE.

Nightmask wrote:or that they begin to spontaneously be able to consume normal food.

They don't need to spontaneously be able to. You are overlooking that Psi-Stalkers have never lost the ability to consume normal food. Psi-Stalkers have always retained the human ability to consume food. They just gain a PPE dependence as a side-effect of their vampirism abilities.

Nightmask wrote:there is no more chance of training someone who feeds on nothing but plants to eat meat than there is to train someone that lives on PPE to eat normal food.

It worked for Daniel Bryan.

Nightmask wrote:It's simply not possible because that's not something that can be trained

Incorrect, it can be trained, because it says the CS can train Nullifiers, and a side-effect of a Stalker becoming a Nullifier is losing their PPE vampirism and losing their PPE dependence, as both are listed under their abilities. Even though you don't consider the dependence aspect of Nourishment an ability (and I can sympathize with that), it is technically one (since it's listed in that section) and if it bothers you, just realize we have an existing example of how energy-sucking powers create energy-sucking dependences to go along with them. This is not an absurd concept, it's consistent logic across multiple Palladium systems.

Nightmask wrote:and the 'well it's an ability and they lose their psi-stalker abilities' is just a lot of red herring nonsense to try and remove a restriction from a character that can't be removed.

It can be removed, because the rules say you remove what is in that section. The rules are not red herrings, your attempts to skirt the rules and make PPE-dependent Nullifiers are.

Nightmask wrote:not proof Tor, and that's a ridiculous bit of reasoning as well.

The rules ARE proof. You seem to think your opinion (which doesn't seem very well supported by rules, and moreso by your imagination) trumps the rules, and it doesn't.

You may well find an FAQ in a Rifter or on the web site which does say that Nega-Stalkers and Stalker-Nullifiers DO feed on PPE. In which case, I can accept that as being a subsequent rules change if Kevin or whoever else writes the FAQ doesn't like Psyscape's implications. But until then, we only have that note to go on, and it very explicitly says "does not get the usual Psi-Stalker RCC and psionic abilities" on 83. "Nourishment" is one of their RCC abilities. Their nourishment is addictive, and like Juicers, like Bio-Ghosts, the benefits that come from it are tied to an addiction that results from it.

Nightmask wrote:What's obvious is that they continue to feed on PPE because that's what they feed on

PPE is what normal Psi-Stalkers feed on. We're discussing abnormal Psi-Stalkers. A mutation present in 1% or less of Stalkers (Nullifiers being 0.5%, Negas being an unknown quantity).

Nightmask wrote:since they clearly are around and one can't have one's dietary needs trained away.

I assume by this you mean that people who lose their dietary needs don't stick around. This is irrelevant, because Nega/Nulli have normal dietary needs. Psi-Stalkers lose the need for PPE because that is listed under RCC abilities which they explicitly lose.

Nightmask wrote:that's not what Psyscape says, that's what you WANT it to say.

I provided a direct quote above. Nourishment is defined as an ability, and they lose it. What you want is to say "no, they don't lose this, because Kevin's an idiot and called something an ability when it wasn't". Kevin messes up sometimes, but not here. Stalker's PPE feeding is a huge advantage, and is definitely an ability, and the dependence is tied to it, which is why they're listed together. The mutants lose the ability, and the resulting dependence. This is what the words in Psyscape mean. To say otherwise means you are ignoring the rules and rewriting the Psi-Stalker RCC.

They don't substitute PPE for food PPE IS their food, they don't lose their dependence on PPE because it's their food it's not some addiction they can be weaned off of.

Nightmask wrote:They are relative to Psi-Stalkers, which is what they originate as. They start as Psi-Stalkers that are subjected to some unknown training process that in a few cases alters their original psionic focus

Actually it's only sometimes a training process. Other times, it can also happen spontaneously, since not all Negas and Nullis are trained by the CS.

Nightmask wrote:but it's not going to alter their basic nature with regards to food as their food is PPE just as it doesn't alter them so they can survive without breathing or having their heads cut off.

It does, that's what the rules say. "Nourishment" is their ability, and they lose it, including the dependence, because the aspect of dependence is also listed under an ability.

People with the Major super power of Bio-Ghost can't simply turn off that dependence, but they WOULD lose it if someone used Negate Super Abilities on them, or if they gained it by some temporary means such as Imbue Super Powers, Mystic Bestowed, or a Magic Item.

Psyscape illustrates that the Stalker's "Nourishment" ability works like this. What's so confusing?

Nightmask wrote:That's not evidence

The rules ARE evidence.

Nightmask wrote:that's your flawed claim because their dietary restriction is listed as an ability and you can't get around the idea that you can't remove something so fundamental

Actually, you CAN. There are all kinds of ways to remove fundamental needs from creatures in Palladium. What you're not grasping here is that this is obviously not a fundamental need, because Psi-Stalkers can be stripped of it. Just as magic spells can strip you of the need to feed or eat, having anti-magical abilities can strip beings (at least Psi-Stalkers) of both PPE vampirism and the resulting addiction.

What is normally a fundamental need is NOT a fundamental need for mutants. Fundamental needs can be removed through certain forms of mutations and training. Examples exist of this all over the Megaverse. The burden is on you to prove that the rules "can't remove" them, when clearly, Psyscape states you CAN.

Nightmask wrote:because they have to be able to feed to survive they must retain their listed ability to feed on PPE because they can't eat normal food.

Incorrect, Psi-Stalkers can eat normal food. Re-read the RCC. It mentions them liking to eat meat.

Obviously without the ability to survive on PPE, they'll have to go back to eating normal human amounts and more reasonable diets. They never lose the ability to live on food, they GAIN the ability (and addiction) to PPE which, if lost, sends them back to normal human metabolism.

Nightmask wrote:You've yet to toss out a solid argument, just a lot of fallacies and opinions presented as if they were facts.

No fallacies or opinions Night, all I need is Psyscape Pg 83 and ANY copy of the Psi-Stalker RCC.

Nightmask wrote:We can't make the assumption you're making about PPE vampirism and the tacked on ability in R:UE to become MDC temporarily, they're unrelated.

They're related in that they are Psi-Stalker abilities, actually. I'm simply throwing out explanations to ease your discomfort and confusion here. They're not necessary to make my point. Though there is an obvious link there (they turn MDC when on a ley line or when fighting supernatural creatures, both of which are major PPE fuel sources)

You have not disproven Page 83 of Psyscape. You're simply ignoring what it says. You are claiming to be the arbiter of what "ability" is, rather than Kevin, who designed the Psi-Stalker. I don't need to know WHY the Stalkers change the way they do, I just know that they do, because that's the rule.

Nightmask wrote:What you feed on has nothing to do with what abilities you may have, other than perhaps the rare creature that converts what they feed on into enhanced abilities (like those energy leeches that gain abilities as they feed on energy).

Clearly it does have something to do with it, because it's listed under abilities. If this was a mistake. Kevin would have moved the dependence outside of 'abilities' and made a note about Nullifiers and Negas in RUE. He didn't, he left it as is. You lose ALL aspects of nourishment (they're all 1 unified ability) when you mutate into Nega/Nulli.

Nightmask wrote:They never had a normal human digestive system to begin with

Yes, they do. They can eat normal food. You're inventing things now. All that's stated is Psi-Stalkers die without PPE (an aspect of their POWER) and when they lose their power, they lose the side-effect of that power.

Nightmask wrote:they can't revert to what they don't have and again you base that argument on the fundamentally erroneous position that 'well PPE vampirism is listed as an ability not a restriction so it goes with all other abilities'.

Not erroneous, it is the RULES.

Nightmask wrote:You keep insisting on that flawed argument when it should be obvious that it's not actually an ability

Except it's obvious that it IS an ability, since it's listed under abilities. Your perspective isn't supported by the rules.

Nightmask wrote:that somehow they gain an ability they never had and can't have to eat normal food EVEN WHEN NO SUCH ABILITY IS STATED.

Psi-Stalkers are never mentioned as losing the ability to eat normal food, and are explicitly mentioned as doing so. RUE pg 183: "Stakers have little need to consume solid food or water. The mutant does not require more than 1 pound of meat and 9 ounces of water a week to remain healthy." .. "can go without solid food or water for up to 3 weeks"

Not only can Stalkers eat food, they also need it to survive, just like PPE. Their vampirism just means they need a lot less of it. So learn the rules before you debate Nightmask, because over and over in these debates, you keep making wildly inaccurate claims that completely contradict rules, over and over. Debating you is exhausting because I keep having to teach you basics like this along the way, and in spite of that, you keep ignoring them.

Nightmask wrote:You aren't going to get the best of both; you want to insist that PPE vampirism is an ability that goes away then since there is no stated ability for them to consume normal food then they must all die because you're ascribing to them a new ability that's not listed as available to the variants.

Eating normal food is not a 'new ability' for Psi-Stalkers. They've always had it, both inherently as humans, and because eating normal food is mentioned under the 'Nourishment' section.

Nightmask wrote:Psi-Nullifiers are not listed as consuming what humans consider to be food

What on earth are you talking about? Psychic classes don't have to discuss basic things like that.

Nightmask wrote:Psi-Stalkers have as their normal food PPE.

Yeah, normal ones. Abnormal ones who exchange their RCC abilities/powers for another RCC do not have PPE as a fuel source or requirement anymore, because they lose all of that.

Nightmask wrote:you're the one insisting that what one eats is an ability that needs listed then without normal human food listed for the variant they must starve to death because they aren't listed as gaining that ability (and it IS a gain since normal psi-stalkers don't have it).

By this logic, since elves and dwarves aren't listed as having the ability to eat food, they would also starve to death.

Or, you can acknowledge that Psi-Stalkers are modifications made to a human template, and that the majority of these modifications are negated by Nega/Nulli mutants, as Psyscape explicitly says.

Psi-Stalkers are humans and humans have the ability to survive on food. Stalkers who lose their RCC abilities/powers lose the automatic death when they can't feed on PPE. They also lose the lowered food requirements and have to eat normal human amounts of food, because they revert to normal human defaults in that regard.

As best I can tell, the only thing Psi-Stalkerish about these mutants is that they'd remain pale/bald dudes.

Nightmask wrote:*laughs* That is such horribly bad reasoning. You know what happens when a being loses it's ability to consume food? It dies.

Stalkers don't lose that. Stalkers retain their inherent human ability to consume food, because that is not a Stalker RCC power.

Nightmask wrote:It doesn't spontaneously develop a way to feed on something else.

Agreed, Stalkers gain no new ability: they're reverting to an ability they never lost, Stalkers have always been able to feed on normal food. They just acquire a PPE addiction as a result of their RCC abilities.

Nightmask wrote:There's nothing to support the idea that removing PPE vampirism as the means of feeding would have it follow that they must spontaneously develop the means of normal food consumption.

They don't: Stalkers never lost the ability to consume normal food. Try finding ANYWHERE in the rules it says that. On the contrary, Stalkers still have to eat solid food, just a lot less of it.

Nightmask wrote:they may be required to consume massive amounts of normal food, far beyond what a normal human would, because the most important food to their survival is denied them.

PPE is no longer a 'most important food' (nor a food at all) because Nulli-Stalkers lose the ability to feed on PPE, and the need for it.

Nightmask wrote:your entire argument hinges on them losing their PPE Vampirsm anyway, a point that's already very evidently flawed when the most rational and logical conclusion is they just remain PPE vampires but without the normal abilities that help them find prey.

Your conclusion is not logical or rational, because it contradicts the statement in Psyscape. You want them to retain their sixth power. They don't. They lose it. It sucks you think that Kevin's rule in Psyscape is irrational and illogical, but it is what it is.

I happen to like the idea of retaining that aspect of the Stalkers, and would see it as a fine house rule, but it isn't canon.

Nightmask wrote:Bio-Ghosts don't develop a reliance on feeding on others (they aren't drug addicts), they have what they consume for food changed to feeding on the lifeforce of others, starting with SDC. There is no evidence that they regain the ability to eat normal food if the power is negated, they could just as easily starve to death due to the alterations made in their bodies.

Bio-Ghosts do not lose the ability to eat normal food.

Bio-Ghosts gain a dependence that is an aspect of their power. Just like Psi-Stalkers.

Lose the collective power, lose the dependence.

You keep insisting both are changes outside the confines of the power, and that simply isn't the case. You have nothing to support this.

Find me a Bio-Ghost NPC where it mentions that they could starve to death if their power is negated. That could change my mind. But far as I know, if you negate a super-ability (or an RCC ability) it's an all-or-nothing deal here.

Nightmask wrote:So your 'well of course they regain their normal feeding abilities' argument is dead in the water because it's only your assumption that they do, it's not a fact.

I'm assuming nothing here. YOU'RE assuming they LOSE the ability. They don't. Bio-Ghosts and Psi-Stalkers both retain the ability to consume normal human foods. They gain an additional (deadly) addictive ability that can substitute for their normal food demands. You are falsely insisting they lose normal human organ functions, but they are instead gaining additional functions.

Life Force Wizards work similarly here. So do Nightlords. Both can still consume human foods, but they gain an addiction to a new thing which they now need for survival. In the case of a BG/PS, it is a reversible thing, since it is conditional on having a super power or an RCC ability which is not permanent, because there are ways to remove it.

Nightmask wrote:while you may think Bio-Ghosts and Psi-Stalkers are based in the same roots that's just another fallacy on your part as you try to wedge together unrelated things that have superficial resemblances and nothing more.

Incorrect, I already proved through my comparison how they are related (they are both removable power-dependency couplings which substitute other being's life force to reduce normal food demands). Their resemblance is actually more subtle than superficial. I never claimed they have the 'same roots' though, take care with your habit of misleading paraphrasing.

Nightmask wrote:Bio-Ghosts are people mutated into having that nature, it's not a racial ability.

Psi-Stalkers are human mutants, I'm not following you here.

Nightmask wrote:Psi-Stalkers are a racial offshoot

Psi-Stalkers are both a 'race' and are also a mutation of the human race.

Nightmask wrote:that sacrificed normal food consumption in order to feed on PPE

Where do the books support this? Psi-Stalkers can consume normal food. All we know is one of their RCC powers tells us that an aspect of that power is you die without PPE. Lose the power, lose the aspect.

Nightmask wrote:at a genetic level they're not wired to eat normal food (what little they do eat is simply a bit of replacement mass and not really for energy)

You admit right here that they DO eat. Since they can eat, they ARE wired to eat normal food. It's simply not enough so long as they have the Psi-Stalker RCC ability which makes them addicted to PPE.

Nightmask wrote:they aren't going to alter that fundamental genetic nature with some training.

Sure they are. They're mutants. You don't know what the CS training program entails, and you do not have power to impose limits on it.

Nightmask wrote:we do NOT know that. That is merely your unsupported opinion. ALL we know is that Psi-Stalkers can be trained to become Psi-Nullifiers and lose their normal Psi-Stalker abilities, of which their PPE Vampirism ISN'T an ability.

It is, it's ability number 6. You can't skirt this. We know this, and you're ignoring how Kevin designed the class, and how he has maintained the design.

Nightmask wrote:They don't eat meat or drink water because they're getting nourishment from it, they do so to replace body mass and fluids used up over time.

I'm not certain you understand what nourishment means. Nourishment keeps you healthy (aka not ill) and if Psi-Stalkers go without meat or water for 3 weeks (at most, since it says 'up to'), they'll begin to get ill.

Nightmask wrote:It's made quite clear that their nourishment comes from PPE. Deprive them of their vampirism and they aren't going to develop a normal digestive tract, because 'A does not follow B'.

They don't need to develope a normal digestive tract, they already have one.

A Psi-Stalker who loses his RCC abilities is going to have some rough times ahead of them, I won't deny that. If someone is ever starving, you can't just shove food in them. Usually you start them on small amounts (like soup) and work their way up.

Psi-Stalkers would obviously have shrunken stomachs, and would probably require a lot of easily metabolized liquid nourishment during a transition process. The CS would (eventually, perhaps with a few victims along the way) be aware of this and take it into account. Since Stalkers could previously survive without fruits and vegetables, reintroducing those into their diet (if they hadn't made that a habit, and I expect most don't) could be a fun fiber-filled experience for the whole family.

Psi-Stalkers don't need to gain anything here though. All they need to do is lose the PPE reliance, which is the case here. With that gone, they lose their reduced food demands (and lose their ability to go without normal food for long periods of time) and revert to human metabolism to survive, a metabolism they never lost, but which was probably very underutilized.

Nightmask wrote:Because you are trying to argue in support of something that already starts with flawed reasoning you treat things that aren't logical or supported as being factual when they aren't.

No flawed reasoning here. Your reasoning is that something clearly listed under "abilities and powers" is not abilities/powers when it is.

I'm just following the rules here, you're trying to amend the rules and export PPE dependence outside abilities/powers. If you feel strongly about that, write up Kevin and maybe he'll change it for Rifts 3rd Edition. But until then, unless you can find some kinda FAQ saying otherwise, this is what Psyscape says.

Nightmask wrote:Limitations don't go away just because the means of satisfying them do, that's absurd.

No, it's not absurd. It goes away because it's listed under abilities. This discussion would probably easily had he just said 'attributes' or 'characteristics', but that's besides the point. "Nourishment" is an ability, and the need to consume PPE is part of an ability/power, that's where it was placed, that's what it is. It's not for you to pick and choose what things in that section are and aren't abilities.

Nightmask wrote:Being PPE vampires does not somehow suppress a need for normal human food

Yes, it does. That's exactly what being a Psi-Stalker means.

"As PPE energy vampires, Psi-Stalkers have ilttle need to consume solid food"

It's right there, in plain English. Psi-Slayers work the same way, except sadly for them, there doesn't appear to be any means of depriving them of that RCC ability.

Nightmask wrote:get rid of the vampirism and they *poof* can eat normal food again.

No 'poof' needed, they never lost the ability. They just lose the new reliance (PPE) when they lose the new substitute (PPE).

Nightmask wrote:PPE IS their normal food, stop them from being able to feed on it and they're going to starve not suddenly develop a healthy appetite.

I didn't say Stalkers would develope an appetite over night. It would be a very tough transition for them. Less hard if you had them regularly eating food prior to doing the psychic training though.

Most Psi-Stalkers wouldn't eat much solid food due to their lack of a need for it, but nothing prevents them from doing so. A Psi-Stalker can eat just as much meat, potatoes and broccoli as the next guy. They could do so because they like the taste (most don't) or to train their digestive systems. I expect the CS would have them do this before training them to become Nullifiers (assuming the program works on Stalkers, it's unclear).

Keep in mind the possibility that it may be that the Nullifier CS program only works on normal humans and not Stalkers, in which it may be possible that all Stalker mutants with Nega/Nulli powers were born that way and never had PPE vampirism or dependence to begin with.

Nightmask wrote:your only concern seems to be to disagree and argue unsupportable points rather than just acknowledge what the actual result would be

I feel the same way bro The 'actual result' is what the rules declare, a result neither of us prefer.

Nightmask wrote:Psi-Nullifiers still feed on PPE because in the end they're still derived from Psi-Stalkers who do

That is like saying "Nullifiers can still turn MDC bbecause they're derived from Psi-Stalkers who do".

That's not what the rules say. Mutated Stalkers lose ALL their RCC abilities. They can't turn MDC, they can't feed on PPE, they don't get the attribute bonuses, they don't empathize with animals, they can't sense the supernatural, they don't have lower food requirements, and they don't die without PPE. Those are all RCC abilities, and Psyscape says they all go kaput.

Nightmask wrote:it would be an absurd bit of rules lawyering trying to argue otherwise so one can escape the downsides of being a PPE vampire that Psi-Stalkers have.

Now you're engaging in mind-reading CD to fuel an ad hominem attack. Please keep to the argument and stop trying to distract from it by claiming I am attempting to escape downsides.

As far as I'm concerned, there isn't any feasible upside to being a Psi-Stalker Psi-Nullifier since the only clear difference is looking less human, which works against you in the CS, and it works against you with mages since they're still going to view you as a threat, something Nullifiers normally don't have to worry about.

Nothing left here worth seeing folks and good gaming to you all with your Psi-Nullifiers as they feast on the PPE of the living as is canon for those of the Psi-Stalker offshoot of humanity and their variants.

Enjoy your house rules Nightmask. Kevin does say you can change the rules, so if you don't like that he strips Nega/Nulli Stalkers of ALL their natural abilities, it is perfectly okay of you to ignore canon and say they keep 1 of them.